Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2 · November 2007

If I find a model from BMW, Lexus, MB which has an owner satisfaction less than 83% does that make it a less car than Azera
well put, the BMW/Lexus/MB etc. owner is going to rightfully expect more from his car because those particular cars are more (and not just from a purchase price perspective). The Azera rates highly because the owners generally expect less because they paid a whole lot less and got exactly that. And before all the Azera buffs get too excited, the same could be said to varying degrees about all the cars in this group. Our cars are not BMWs, Lexii and nor should we expect them to be....

louiswei · November 2007

Okay guys, the captain said it, not me...

:P

tjc78 · November 2007

You are right. Toyota still has egg on their face from the sludge issue. I did get a letter in the mail about the class action suit regarding my 2000 Solara (3.0L). It was never an issue with me, the car was turned back in before I even got the letter. I don't recall sludging of any of the 4 cyls either.

hjc1 · November 2007

Hi Captain
Boy are you wrong..... If someone is buying a product.. I don't care what he pays for it he wants it to work. When I purchased my Azera I expected it to be free of defects and I would be just as demanding whether I payed $1 or $27,000.
Oh...by the way 15,000 miles and NO defects. I wish I could say the same for the Toyota Solara I had before :=)

allmet33 · November 2007

Hjc1...you're right, everyone buys a product expecting it to be defect free, but...does that mean it will be defect free? It doesn't matter if you pay $1 or $250K dollars for a car...no matter how it's built, there is a chance it can have a defect. The defect isn't my issue, my issue is how the company stands behind it when it surfaces. Now, it sure would be easy if you experienced a major defect within say...the first 30 days, that you could take it back and simply exchange it for another one like you would with something from a store. However, with the process of registration, titling and all that...it makes it more difficult to do something like that. Maybe, they should implement a 60 day temp tag and not start processing the registration and title paperwork till after the first 30 days.

I bought my Azera and in the first week, the only defect I encountered was the clock not working properly. The only other things I've come across as defects (in 18 months) were...the hood release latch breaking, the sun roof not seating properly, the faux woodgrain chipping on the steering wheel and the faulty seatbelt sensor that kept making the airbag light come on. Now I know there are some that would have thrown a fit dealing with those things. While a slight inconvenience to me, none of them stranded me on the side of the road or made the car inoperable. So...each time, I took some time off and got it taken care of. In most cases, the car was at the dealer for about an hour and I would be on my way. Does it bother me that I had to take some time off to deal with it...nah, not really because I scheduled it on MY terms. Worst case scenario, I could drop the car off the night before and pick it up the next day when the work is done. However...I have the luxury of having 3 Hyundai dealers within 20 minutes of my home too. So I do feel bad for those that have just one dealer to turn to no matter how far they have to drive.

louiswei · November 2007

I don't think 100% satisfaction equals "free of defects".

Like the captain said, a lot of people who brought a luxury car usually have higher expectations than "free of defects", they are normally pickier than say the most Azera owners.

To be honest, 80% of the Avalon is really not that much different than 83% of the Azera, but I am pretty sure a lot of Avalon owners have higher expectations in the cars because it is the benchmark of the class. Azera owners on the other hand think it's a great value and a steal for $25K so more will be satisfy with "free of defects".

I know a lot of these are speculation and that's why I said earlier that I don't want to start this debate. However, even though you might not be the case but you really can't speak for all Azera owners right?

louiswei · November 2007

The only other things I've come across as defects (in 18 months) were...the hood release latch breaking, the sun roof not seating properly, the faux woodgrain chipping on the steering wheel and the faulty seatbelt sensor that kept making the airbag light come on.

For me that's totally unacceptable. I expect my car to be more than "none of them stranded me on the side of the road or made the car inoperable". If I am giving my satisfaction score to your Azera it'll receive a D (60%) and the only reason it is passing is because it never stranded you on the side of the road.

I am curious what is your satisfaction score for you car.

allmet33 · November 2007

I don't know...I guess I'm just not as high strung as it seems most of the folks are when it comes to stuff like that. What I find funny is that a car is mechanical, to even conceptualize ZERO defects or problems is ludacris. Why go in expecting none, only to blow a gasket when something does happen; when you can go in with an allowance that something could possibly be defective and if a defect surfaces...it's not a big deal because you prepared yourself to handle it? I don't understand what getting upset over something you have no control over does.

Nobody can ever own a car that never needs something fixed at some point, it's impossible. Now...whether it requires a trip to the dealer or it's something you can fix on your own...that could be different story. However, in this day and age of warranty coverage...it's most likely going to go to the dealer.

Wow...60% satisfaction score, huh? You're pretty harsh in your judging my friend. Only 2 of those problems were mechanical and in no way related to the power train or any other major systems. At worst, peripheral issues. In my opinion...they were very minor issues (the airbag light was the most annoying of them), but...they were all taken care of quickly with a smile and no hassle.

Personally, my satisfaction score on MY Azera would be more like 95% because I'm factoring in how I feel about the car overall. The quality, the fit and finish, the comfort and the reliability (thus far). I've had a Toyota Camry that required more major work in less time than I've owned my Azera. Let's see...replace front and rear engine seals, rebuild transmission and replace the timing belt all within a 6 month period. Of course, I had to eat the cost of all those things as the car was past it's warranty period. Aside from that...the car was great. I'm just one that realistically expects breakdowns of mechanical things...especially when it comes to cars.

dfwfrank · November 2007

You've got to love the passion that some people have about their cars. However, the "My car is better than your car" attitude gets old.
Your position is much along my position, a car is mechanical, electrical, and computerized, and yet they all work pretty well now a days but to go "defect free" is probably asking an awful lot out of them. But some makes and models are better than others. I was, and still am, a solid supporter of a manufacturer for the last 18 years (6 cars total) even though my last two cars from them required, the tranny replaced after just one month in the first one, both had to be taken in for rattles in the dash, battery failed after only 18 months in the first, and other various little things done while having oil change and tires rotated. Big deal no, we still really liked the cars and would give them both probably 90+% satisfaction, and the service department was very good (very important in car satisfaction I feel). Can I compare a 30K car to a 40+K car, sure I can, I can compare anything I want to even apples to oranges, does it make sense probably not. Should these cars be be comparable, if I owned the more expensive car and many of the reviews and maybe if I am not to prideful, actually test drive the 30K and found that it was equal to or a better car, I would not be pleased. I can even compare my first car, '69 Dodge Dart, slant six, 3 on the column, black vinyl, to my current car. Now if they were even close to comparing I would really have a problem.

I am not smarter than anyone else in this forum, I am just looking for what I perceive to be the best car for what I want to pay, not what I can afford. So with that, we are now driving an '07 Azera Limited and loving it. By the way the previous cars with the "defects" were Avalons, we thought they were great cars for the price. We shall see where this adventure takes us.

dborth · November 2007

Re 3820: If I find a model from BMW, Lexus, MB which has an owner satisfaction less than 83% does that make it a less car than Azera.

What do the above products have to do with "Mainstream"?

allmet33 · November 2007

Frankly...I wasn't saying that my car is better than anyone else's. The poster felt that the few minor issues I stated having in the 18 months of ownership warranted a 60% satisfaction rating. All I did was point out my position on the matter. I agree with everything you stated and, like you, I was looking for what I perceived to be the best car for waht i wanted to pay. I too, ended up with an Azera.

In my opinion, it takes more than a few trips back to the dealer for minor fixes to make a satisfaction rating slip way down to a 60%. A portion of the satisfaction rating is going to be based on dealer support, which I've seen how the lack of can create a serious disdain for a car, even if the car happens to be a good car.

I do wish you the best with your Azera.

joe97 · November 2007

I would say owners of both Azera, Avalon (and others in the class) generally have high expectations going in. While Azera is a spanking new model (in terms of its overall life), its price range is the first legit Hyundai US model to crease past the $30K mark, and for anyone paying $30K for a model with little history will certainly come with high expectations, especially when a brand didn't have the best start in the US. In that sense, the Azera owners would normally have higher expectations than others, and owners have been rewarded.

RE: "free of defect" Let's face it, no cars are perfect, as long as there are human contact during the building process. If some issues were to come about, even the smallest mishap, it would be a matter how tolerable someone is. In other words, it varies from one person to the next; on an individual basis, even the same problem from the same two cars can have different responses from owner A & owner B.

I am talking about cosmestic issues, mostly. If the car brakes down, that would be another story all together

floridabob1 · November 2007

RE: 3827
Right!
Satisfaction does not equate to defect free.
I would prefer to have a car that has some CORRECTABLE defects, than one which I am unhappy with due to engineering, safety, appearance or cosmetic reasons which cannot be corrected without major custom redesign or re fitting.

jaymagic · November 2007

Just passed the one year/21,000 mile mark on my Azera and I have not had any defects. So, it is possible. Now, would I be happier if my Azera was an Audi A8L. Oh yes!!! But, something tells me it might just cost me a little more money.

My wife is getting a portable Pioneer Inno XM radio unit which includes a home and a car kit (we will use the cassette adaptor). Hope to have the mount and antenna installed by next week. I will let you know how it performs. Total cost is $116 for unit and kits and $69 installation fee (mount and antenna). It happens to be the bright pink Inno unit, but hey it will be easier to find, lol.

louiswei · November 2007

What do the above products have to do with "Mainstream"?

I don't think you are getting the point...

louiswei · November 2007

the Azera owners would normally have higher expectations than others

Completely disagree, IMO it should be the other way around. Since Azera is the newest kid in the block and holds the "best value" title, the owners should be the easiest to satisfy.

Avalon, on the other hand being the benchmark of the class, the owners should have higher expectation than others.

captain2 · November 2007

free of defects? - of course we all expect that - I sure as heck hope so, whether it $27k spent on an Azera, $32k on an Avalon, or $70k on an Lexus LS. We can argue all day as to whether a LS, for example, is worth the extra money - but the fact is that it IS - simply because that it what they sell for new and used. And this despite a rather suspect reliability record on several of these (primarily European) engineering marvels. My point was if you are an Azera buyer you will also understand that you saved all this money and therefore will have a different set of expectations (and priorities) for a particular automobile that goes well beyond simple reliability. You are, in fact, putting any priorities you may or may not have about vehicle dynamics on the 'back burner' in exchange for saving that 30+ large when uy that Azera (or Avalon). Besides a 'badge' things like ISs/GSs/LSs/Eand S classes/5 and 7 series do offer more and the market dictates that they are worth every penny of it - whether you or I agree with that is inconsequential. Indeed I guess that my purchase of an Avalon and your purchase of the Azera would seem to indicate that we would prefer to save the bucks while understanding (I hope) that an Avalon (or Azera) is no competition for that corresponding Lexus/BMW/MB model. Reliability and/or defects any actually be lower in the lesser cars simply because the cars themselves are not nearly the technological tour de forces that higher priced cars are. Using that same logical - the Corolla should (and I think generally is) a more reliable (and defect free) than the Avalon and the same should be true with the corresponding Hyundai products. A corollary of Muphy's Law: the more complicated anything is, the more likely it is to break!
However, a manfacturer's ability to produce anything that is reasonably reliable and defect free IS something that should be assumed by all car buyers, just like you said.

captain2 · November 2007

jaymagic-
see previous post - actually there is more likelihood that the A8L would have MORE defects than any Azera would even approach having - BUT as you note that A8 is much much more of a car objectively

allmet33 · November 2007

Who paid $30K for an Azera??? At best, folks are paying mid-high $20K's for them.

There's chances for defects even if machines are building the cars, even though though the chances are lessened, but who put together the machines that build the cars??? It's all relative...the point is, nobody should buy a car with an absolute thought in their mind that nothing can go wrong with it simply because it's new, or that you paid a good amount of money for it.

I've seen Caddies, Benzes, BMW's and other higher priced cars on the side of the road with paper tags still on them. I have owned two Hyundai cars from brand new and my satisfaction rating for both are over 90%. The first one I had for 4 years and put 105K miles on it. Only time it left me stranded was because of a mistake the dealership made when replacing a CV joint (CV boot had torn) and when they put it back together...someone forgot a nut or something. Could have been tragic, but in the end...everything was taken care of and I'm here to talk about it. Would my dissatisfaction be aimed at the car? No, not at all. Was I dissatisfied with the dealer, no....disappointment and anger was the emotion of the moment, but I gave them an opportunity to fix everything and make it right...which they did with a smile and no hassles whatsoever.

kdshapiro · November 2007

" I have owned two Hyundai cars from brand new and my satisfaction rating for both are over 90%."

And I have seen Hyundais and Kias on the side of the road with paper tags on them. I've also seen Lexus, Honda and Toyotas. Every car has the capacity to break down.

floridabob1 · November 2007

RE: 3838
Why would you expect that a 30 K or less automobile to be built to the same quality level as a 70 k model.
Do you think that the extra 40K is pure profit to the manufacturer and dealer?
I don't think so.
Although I am pleased in general with my Azera and agree that dollar for dollar it is a good product, I don't believe for a minute that it is engineered and built to the standards of a 70K high end BMW, Mercedes, Infinity or Lexus.

jaymagic · November 2007

Absolutely, I fully agree with your point that when we buy an Avalon or an Azera, we very well understand that we are not buying the "best" car available. And, it does color and set our expectations. As we have posted back and forth, I can't imagine why anyone would spend the money on an ES 330 when the Avalon is virtually identical.

But, there are so many that think a brand is critical and others who believe a quicker e.t., faster lap time, more tech gadgets, etc., are necessary to make them happy with their car. Others may seek the "greenest" car.

The Avalon or Azera are objectively never going to be the best, but I'll suspect we both put our satisfaction level at least in the high 90's, and happily recommend them to those that might be interested in a "mainstream sedan".

joe97 · November 2007

When the Azera first came out, it was the first legit Hyundai model treading the 30K range. To convince persepective shoppers into buying something in unfamiliar territory, and with little history, I don't know about you, but I would certainly have high expectations - just because of the unfamiliarity and the lack of history; not to mention the added (potential) risk involved.

Fortunately, I am sure most Azera owners would tell the car has met and/or exceed their expectations.

captain2 · November 2007

Why would you expect that a 30 K or less automobile to be built to the same quality level as a 70 k model
...would seem to indicate that we would prefer to save the bucks while understanding (I hope) that an Avalon (or Azera) is no competition for that corresponding Lexus/BMW/MB model. quoting my post -isn't that exactly what I said. However if you are commenting on the reliabilities of the Azera/Avalon etc. vs. those $70-k cars, I stand by my contention that they (the expesive cars) are invariably more troublesome - something that BMW's all inclusive warranties will support and the worse than average ratings of most the BMW/MB models will support. Quality and reliability are ,at times, unrelated. Quality standards are indeed higher for that $70k cars, just not reliability - necessarily. Lexus, in particular still does pretty well despite all those high tech gimmicks beginning to infect their cars as well. A 'self -parking' car that automatically prepares itself for what IT thinks is an impending accident - just what we all need!

dfwfrank · November 2007

Sorry allmet, I was not referring to you, in fact your post that I was responding to showed a voice of reason. I just love the passion that some, whether it be cars, sport teams, whatever, that people show, it is just when it comes on too strong that gets a little old.

dfwfrank · November 2007

Since we are on reliability, defects, and expectations. Most of our mainstream cars are in the 25K to 35K range, should one expect more reliability than one who pays, 15K, or should we get the same reliability but just better quality materials and more features? If you pay 70K for a car, do you expect it to be in the shop at all? Should it have any defects? Several of my MB owners will not be getting them again because they are in the shop a lot. What price difference does it take for expectations to be greater, 5K, 10K?

kdshapiro · November 2007

Take Ferrari. I submit price has nothing to do with expectations of reliability. Drive an Avalon and 750 or equivalent back to back. Obviously the $40K+ difference is not pure profit. Reliability has little to do with price. Quality and luxury however have everything to do with price. The expectation is I get what I pay for in terms of car. Reliability for the most part, is luck. It's been a while since I've been stranded on the side of the road, but any car is capable of a meltdown.

dborth · December 2007

Although I am pleased in general with my Azera and agree that dollar for dollar it is a good product, I don't believe for a minute that it is engineered and built to the standards of a 70K high end BMW, Mercedes, Infinity or Lexus

Who ever said any 30K "mainstream sedan" was? If you aspire to the "standards" of a 70K high end, buy one.

floridabob1 · December 2007

RE:3849
I never stated that I expected nor aspired to the standards of a 70k car when I purchased my Azera. I purchased a 30k car and got good value for my money. Exactly what I expected. I do not fool myself by believing that it is the best car on the road.

scbob · December 2007

Oh contraire! The rating is based on the owner's being satisified with his car. If the other cars have less than 83%, it means they did not get what they wanted, not that they expected too much from the cars.
From these and other posts, Azera owners expect a lot more from their cars also.
BTW, my satisfaction with Azera, the dealer and the service department is 100%. Also, I considered BMW, MB, Lexus, Avalon, et. al. and overall was not satisfied with what they offered compared to the Azera without considering cost. Except for the Lexus LS series, a lot of professional reviewers have negative observations re: BMW, MB, etc.

alexstore · December 2007

well looks like for camry you failed to mention it was used one because in no way you will need to replace timing belt within 6 month from the date the vehicle is new, unless you drive about 100k miles a year

kdshapiro · December 2007

I agree with captain2 100%. I would have a much higher expectation of a BMW than a Dodge Charger. Not to say people can't be satisified with their purchases. I give my BMW a 100% rating including the service department. My Subaru about a 70%. People who buy high-end cars and don't do their homework wind up with less than stellar experiences and it reflects in the ratings. (Actually people who buy any car without doing their homework imo, ends up with less than a stellar experiece.) The Subaru was inexpensive enough to ignore the negative aspects when purchasing, that doesn't mean I don't notice them during daily commuting.

And, the expectation of a BMW is higher than a Subaru in my mind. Which means little issues have a more significant effect on my BMW owners experience than my Subarus owners experience.

captain2 · December 2007

I submit price has nothing to do with expectations of reliability
Agreed - in fact if anything the opposite is true. Reminds me of a recent comparo of sports sedans (3 series, G35, A4 etc) won (of course) by the 330 despite some rather serious and continual computer and other malfunctions during the testing. If I am going to spend the extra money for that BMW/MB/Lexus etc. I expect a dynamically superior ride (better braking/handling etc.) and I also understand that what makes those kinds of cars superior is several levels of sophistication not avaialnble on lesser cars, and with that the sophistication likely comes MORE suspect reliabilities. MB is perhaps the best example of this. Great cars - at a price

allmet33 · December 2007

No doubt, as you notice, the statement was made about the two cars I personally owned. In most peoples' minds, it's not so surprising to see a Hyundai or Kia w/paper tags broken down on the side fo the road. However...to see a Lexus, Caddy, BMW or Benz with paper tags, broken down on the side of the road is quite disappointing considering the amount of money that's paid for those cars.

However, you have echoed the very point I made previously...EVERY car has the capacity to break down, no matter how much is paid for it.

allmet33 · December 2007

Alexstore...the metion of my Camry had nothing to do with weather it was new or used. Yes, when I bought it...it was used. However...the point I was making was that I had to dump all that money into the car in a short period of time. The point of the matter is...the car was a '96 and all of that work was done before the car was even 5 years old!!!

captain2 · December 2007

. However...to see a Lexus, Caddy, BMW or Benz with paper tags, broken down on the side of the road is quite disappointing considering the amount of money that's paid for those cars.
when I see an expensive car broken down - my first thought 'computet must have crashed' or 'wonder if it is using the latest version of Windows'

scbob · December 2007

The survey question is whether or not you are satisfied with your car. I have the same expectations for my Azera that I would for a Lexus, BMW, Infiniti, Avalon, etc.
Admitedly, the others may have some better points, but that is not the question.

allmet33 · December 2007

LMAO Probably running a Vista operating system!

I wonder if that new Microsoft Sync system in FoMoCo products will cause any problems.

captain2 · December 2007

I wonder if that new Microsoft Sync system in FoMoCo products will cause any problems

Don't know, but sure as h--- wouldn't trust it, and these kind of things not limited to just cars - have 2 new (very high tech) home appliances - both of which crapped out and required new coomputer boards, expensive as well, but fortunately covered under warranties. I will never know what was actually wrong with them -- kinda like a friend of mine with a Nissan Titan who got stuck in a bad traffic jam, the computer apparently didn't 'like' the stop n' go, the heat, or something - so it did what is was programmed to do - disable the tranny!
After towing back to the dealer, the service dept. couldn't reproduce the error, of course, simply 'rebooted' the truck - and it has been fine since. To this day, nobody could ever even guess a cause, although Nissan did cough up a few hundred to cover the tow truck only because the computer 'admitted' that IT had experienced a problem.
These fancy computers they are putting in our cars these days are largely reponsible for the power/economies of today's engines and FTM those 'safety' systems that everybody seems to want - but there is a price to be paid ! And it doesn't seem to do any good to gripe about it - these days if it has a 'computer' in it it must be good.

allmet33 · December 2007

LOL I feel you on that. Pretty soon, we'll have to call the Geek Squad when our vehicles break down and give them first crack before calling a tow company!

The fact that Microsoft has anything to do with the operating of a car is almost scary.

thegraduate · December 2007

Forget "Serra Honda" (my local dealer), it'll be "Best Buy Honda."

allmet33 · December 2007

Either that or tow truck operators will have to have a Geek-on-Call riding shotgun!

imidazol97 · December 2007

>Geek Squad

You do realize the Geek Squad is the subject of some computer pages for poor techniques for fixing computers and for,errrr, some improprieties with software on customer's computers. I don't think I want the Geek Squad working on my car's computer either.

allmet33 · December 2007

I wasn't aware of that fact there, however...I was really saying it with a bit of tongue in cheek. However, with the way the On Star system can send you general diagnostics of major vehicle components, it won't be long before all cars can be diagnosed by a mechanic without the vehicle leaving your drive way, garage or wherever it may be. Well...maybe.

alexstore · December 2007

do guys or girls at Hyundai have imagination? Even New Logo for Genesys is stolen from who else.... VW's Bentley. The car itself looks like combination of Infinity M front and BMW 7 series behind. Common Hyundai, stop stealing from other brands.
Also why would a flagship use engine from a basic car. Genesys Engine options according to Edmunds are 3.3, 3.8 and 4.6. I understand last 2 but using 3.3 in flagship? It like using 2.0 and 2.5 in 04+ Maxima or 2.4 in Avalon.

allmet33 · December 2007

I guess you haven't seen the Concept Genesis Coupe, huh?

From my talks with folks at my dealership, it's been said that the front end of the Genesis sedan will not be the same as the one seen on the concept vehicle.

Here's a question...why are you worried about where Hyundai gets their design concepts? I mean...if you take a little from here and a little from there and you put it together to make something very appealing, why is that wrong?

Have you seen the newest Honda Accord Coupe? Looks VERY Toyota Solara-ish from the back. Come on man, car companies borrow design cues from each other all the time. For the longest time, you almost couldn't tell a Camry from a Maxima at a distance. Oh...don't tell me you haven't seen the concept drawings for the new Maxima...OMG...looks very Avalon-ish to me.

Take a chill pill dude, considering the cars you mentioned the Genesis looking like...very nice cars to emulate.

floridabob1 · December 2007

RE: 3867
One of the ways that Hyundai is able to keep their price down is by taking a lot of style and engineering from other manufacturers. Like generic drugs.
I have no problem with that, if they are able to emulate the features and style that appeal to me.

kdshapiro · December 2007

I have different expectations for different cars. I have a lower expectation for my Subaru and am willing to live with annoyances and issues, and bought the car knowing about these annoyances and issues, which I wouldn't not live with on my BMW or if BMW had the same issues wouldn't buy the car.

Different strokes for different folks.

allmet33 · December 2007

It would seem to me that they may emulate the styles of various other cars on the road now, but Hyundai has found ways to make them work and still turn out appealing vehicles.

colloquor · December 2007

Hyundai is doing absolutely nothing different than the Japanese did when they first started importing cars into the USA. Asians tend to copy . . . period. In the 1950s, the Japanese were very well known as making copies of anything and everything. The mid-60s Datsun Fairlady sports car - the SPL1600 and SPL2000 - were, in many respects, copies of the MGB. The Japanese-manufactured constant-depression variable-venturi carbs (Mikuni's I believe) were copies of the British SU carb. Again, Asians copy, but also improve upon the original design.

Now it's the Koreans that are copying and borrowing designs . . . nothing is new. Only the nationalities and company names change over time.

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