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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    allmet -- theTouring happens to be significantly tighter than the other trims, to quote that summer of '05 sedan comparo in C&D -

    The Avalon has abandoned its "Japanese Buick" spot for a position in the Sports Dept.

    and you know what, this is not the case,
    as kdshapiro notes you would have to drive and/or own something like that Bimmer to truly undertstand what the difference is - and this despite the fact that my Avalon would show its tailights to the then current 530 - but only in a drag race!
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I'm well aware of what the "touring" trim level means. Again, I say...it is not as tight as the suspension on the Maxima.

    Wow...as intelligent as you seem to be, you clearly miss the points that are made. If you compare the 530 to the current Avalon, then yes...the 530 will whoop it's tail when it comes to performance. However...if you give the Avalon a TRUE sport tuned suspension, I guarantee...it'll give that 530 a serious run for it's money.

    The "touring" trim level for the Avalon, while lending itself to a sporty feel on the road, is far from a true sport tuned suspension. The "touring" suspension lends itself to rider comfort while also allowing for slightly aggressive driving. Would I push the Avalon Touring as hard as a Maxima...NO, I would not.

    Please note, and understand...I have not said at any point in any of my postings that the Azera or Avalon in current set-ups could ever contend with a BMW or any other sport sedan when it comes to performance. I have simply stated that if you gave either of the two cars a TRUE sport tuned suspension...THEN you could begin the performance comparisons.
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    Motor Trend 600 Foot Slalom

    Volkswagen Passat - 64.1 mph
    Hyundai Azera 63.7 mph
    Toyota Avalon 61.9 mph
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    . However...if you give the Avalon a TRUE sport tuned suspension, I guarantee...it'll give that 530 a serious run for it's money.

    No you can't and no it won't - the only thing it will do is outaccelerate it (and not by much)
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I assume these numbers are from that 06 comparo? Yep the VW was cited for its relative tightness at the expense of ride, the Azera its relative softness and better ride, and the close winner of that particular comparo the Avalon Touring for its better balance between the two. To each his/her own, but had that been an Avalon XLS instead of the Touring they did test, I suspect that the results may have been different - if only because the enthusiast mags do tend to put more value in feel/handling than they do on 'cruising' - and perhaps the VW 'wins'. And no, that Passat is NOT a sports sedan either!.
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    cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Both the Lancer EVO and WRX are distant cousins to World Rally Cars, and as such are required to accelerate on dirt, ice and snow with over 400HP - they are AWD because they need to be to transfer that kind of power to the ground, same with the Lambo on the street.
    IMO, AWD is not necessary in a sedan that weighs 2 tons ( unless you drive in the mountains where there's lots of snow ) and thus with that kind of weight can not have serious sporting aspirations.
    As far as safety, the only safety with AWD is that it's harder to get stuck. Since the AWD only works when your'e on the gas, pressing the accelerator is opposite to what almost all drivers would do if they lost traction.
    BTW, I found out that the Stability Control on my Azera works: the back end came out slightly to follow a rut in the snow and the brakes came on quite agressively. IMO, Stability Control is worth more than AWD as far as a safety.
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    Acura RL 65.5
    BMW 545i 64.6
    Infinit M35 64.4
    Volks Passat 64.1
    Audi A6 Quattro 63.9
    Hyundai Azera 63.8
    Jaguar S-Type 63.8
    Chrysler 300C 63.2
    Acura TL 62.8
    Nissan Maxima 62.3
    Toyota Avalon 61.9
    Buick Lucerne 58.5
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    pressing the accelerator is opposite to what almost all drivers would do if they lost traction.
    especially those untrained/inexperenced ones? Agree with your comments, and also that SC systems are likely to be far more 'valuable' to the average driver, albeit at a price, of sorts..
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    this an effort to quantify what a 'sports sedan' is? Not exactly the most valid way to do this - especially considering the varying negative influences of stability contol systems on test results like these.. The wonderful FWD biased RL, to me, would have a hard time passing muster as a sports anything - it is simply too big and 'soft' and only does what it does because of that SH-AWD thing, the 545/M35/A6 perhaps - the rest - nope. Opinion, of course!
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That's all good and dandy but I don't know how TL got 62.8 mph on that list...

    Here's the stats from some "true" sports sedans according to R&T in their 01/07 issue:

    700 foot slalom:

    Lexus IS350: 66.7 mph
    Acura TL-S: 66.0 mph
    Infiniti G35S: 65.5 mph

    I think that's a fit of a strech for any car in this class to compare. Also, just sports suspension alone wouldn't make Azera or Avalon a sports car, it's the steering, chasis, turning motion, gearing along with a good suspension that makes one.
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    If a Hyundai Azera fares so well against sedans which are tens-of-thousands more expensive, how well will the Genesis fare? I'm betting the farm the numbers are going to compete with any Bimmer, Audi, Merc or Infiniti.

    (The $27K Azera outperforms a Maxima, TL, Jag S, Pontiac GTO, Avalon, 300C and is as good as a $55K Audi A6 Quattro in a slalom. This test is all I need to know about since I wouldn't be racing my car and I just want to know it will handle adequately in an emergency maneuver. I really don't care how many G's it can pull.)

    And since I dont care about shallow badge displays, which always cost more to display, service and fuel, I'll take an Azera, put $5-$7K in my pocket and drive it for 6-7 years. After 7 years that $7k is worth alot of money.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The $27K Azera outperforms a Maxima, TL, Jag S, Pontiac GTO, Avalon, 300C and is as good as a $55K Audi A6 Quattro in a slalom.

    Are those tests done under same day, same location and same condition? If not then that comparison is as good as moot.

    Anyone who thinks Azera and Avalon can outperform a Maxima, TL and A6 Quattro must be smoking something good...
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    The Acura I quoted was the TL and not a Type-S. Even still, the Azera's acceleration, braking and slalom numbers vs. the competition is a testimony to Hyundai's engineering competency. It is also very apparent that the 10% of profit being put into R&D is showing up in real world numbers and sales as they are number 6, sales are up worldwide and growing rapidly globally.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    they are number 6, sales are up worldwide and growing rapidly globally.

    I thought we are discussing cars, not companies here...
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    'Anyone who thinks Azera and Avalon can outperform a Maxima, TL and A6 Quattro must be smoking something good... '

    You may attach your own spin to the test figures Motor Trend, conducted but I am merely quoting the tests numbers. The Avalon didn't best any of them but the Azera did at 63.8. Read the numbers before you comment. Your opinion indicates that you are predisposed to believing that a Hyundai can't beat anyone in anything because the Azera outperformed what you believe to be more capable vehicles.I am the 'anyone' and I dont smoke anything. There is no need to insult me because I presented test numbers.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Then I am asking...

    Are those tests conducted under the same day, same location and same weather condition?

    Did you answer my question? If not, then how's that a "spin"?
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    This is a forum. I believe it is aptly termed a 'discussion' because it affords individuals the general liberty to present diverse ideas about mainstream large sedans which are built by manufacturers. Since Hyundai builds the Azera, which is a mainstream large sedan, I believe I was well within the boundaries to discuss issues related to the engineering or sales of the Azera. I am confident it is our role to present discussion and it is the forum host's role to determine if discussion has wandered outside the boundaries. Kindly reread the terms of the agreement you checked and yield to the forum host.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    .
    the Avalon didn't best any of them
    of course it didn't and probably because Toyota (as is their history) is more conservative with stability control systems. The fact of the matter is that you won't know how any of these cars can actually perform unless it has an 'off' switch' that really and truly turns the SC off. The Azera - to its credit- does have one. Look all thru those tests you reference and you will see a little asterisk now appearing next to these results - the asterisk meaning 'stability control inhibited'. Or even better read the road test on the Chrysler 300 Touring (v6) in that C&D comparison in the summer of 05, where they rant and rave about how good and balanced that car 'feels' and yet the best the car could do in the slalom was well down in the 50s - why because of the invasive way that Chrysler, in this instance had chosen to set its 'silly' stability control intervention levels. Heck even Ford and Consumer Reports understand that these systems do ultimately effect the ultimate handling limits on cars, CR with its own 'asterisk' and Ford by choosing to compare a non-SC equipped Fusion with an Accord that miracles of miracles was so equipped. And then they want to claim that the Fusion outhandles the Accord, or that people invited to have a day of fun at the track wouldn't prefer the Fusion to the Accord? Don't know that you can call this spin, because it is more precisely the truth - there is much more to it than just numbers!
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The reason I said that is because we have been down this path in many occasions before (this and other forums). The host can't always be here to clean up the mess so sometimes it's up to us not to stray very far from the topic.

    I am going to stick to cars here...
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    Your argument, although seemingly legitimate and rational, appears to be your attempt to serve your predisposition that an Azera is not capable of outperforming another model you deem as superior. Yet I am sure you are not capable of presenting any test figures of your own to dispute a generally accepted automobile reviewer. Since you can't, you are invalidating the tests based on your own criterion which is subjective. If you want to get into whether or not the test was scientifically valid, feel free to split hairs.
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    I believe Hyundai builds cars.
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay Captain, whatever you say. Happy Holidays to you and yours!!!!
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I believe Hyundai builds cars.

    That's why I am discussing Hyundai Azera instead of why is Hyundai number 6 in the world...

    :confuse:
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm....I outran a TL one morning on the way to the dealer for an oil change. However, I do recognize that it was just a TL and not a TL-S. :P
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I am asking a very simple question (a yes or no would do) here:

    Are those tests conducted under the same day, same location, same weather condition and SC on/off condition?

    Instead of answering that question since you are the OP you went on and on and on. So who's the spin master here?
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yeah, guess what, I also outran a Porsche 911 Turbo one day on the highway, maybe my car is faster than a $100k near-supercar...

    :confuse:
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    LOL - remember one poster here that for years was claiming that the sorry 3 liter engine in the Ford Five Hundred was plenty good - because once he was able to pass a real Corvette on the highway! Guess it must be those 'fake' Corvettes that are the real problem! :D
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    prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    'That's why I am discussing Hyundai Azera instead of why is Hyundai number 6 in the world... '

    It was a simply one idea within one sentence. Why do insist on controlling such a small part of a much larger discussion. Issues?
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Funny...the Porsche must've been parked!!! LMAO

    Seriously...the TL was actually trying to race me as he wanted to see what he had (just gotten it) and wanted to see what my Azera had since he hadn't seen any at the time. So I obliged him since the road was clear (no traffic). Long story short...he pulled up to me at a light that was red and complimented the Azera by saying he was impressed.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    your experience with your TL will kind of depend on how old the TL was - 2005+ are 270hp (old rating)/258 (new rating) and I would put my money on that TL driver if his 'heart' (and right foot) was in it. Older TLs were about 225hp and would have a serious problem with something like you Azera. TL-Ss were originally 260hp and are now nudging 300 and I don't believe any of these cars will keep up with them.
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You obviously didn't read the post (as usual), it was a 2006 model and it wasn't the S model...I conceded that fact already. He said he was standing on the gas pedal and couldn't catch up to me. Sheesh!!!

    Funny, you talk about how your Avalon can outrun a BMW 330 in a straight run, but you have issues with an Azera running with a TL!!! You're a funny dude...for real!!!
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    it was a 530 BTW and I can tell you that in 3 years and 65k miles I haven't 'raced' anything in my Avalon and nor would I care to. Boy you sure seem to be touchy about what a big ole (and somewhat bloated) Azera (yes, all these cars are bloated) can outdrag. The fact is, that the TL is 258hp and 3500 lbs. which puts it almost exactly the same power to weight as your Azera. Further it is geared a little more like the 'sport sedan' it pretends to be. My 'if his heart/foot was in it' comment stands, and it would be very close, although the whole concept of drag racing cars like this seems rather childish to me.
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Oh...Im sorry, my mistake on the mention of the wrong model. Funny, you can make claims of what your Avalon might be able to do, but in reality...you're not exactly sure.

    Even with the TL being at the same power to weight ratio...it can't keep up with the Azera. I'm sorry, it's a sad fact that maybe you just don't want to accept. The fact that the TL is geared a little more like the sport sedan you say it pretends to be...that's even worse.

    Trust me, heart/foot had nothing to do with how he was driving it. I asked him why he held back and he said he had his foot buried to the floor. Sorry Captain, as much as you don't want to believe...I've seen it for myself, so I speak on FACT!!!

    As far as the whole racing thing...well, I haven't gotten past my prime years yet. I'm still young and enjoy living to the fullest. Just because you've moved on into your golden years and no longer feel inclined to push your vehicle...that's your preference and I respect that. Funny...every one was younger once and when they get older and don't do the things they used to do...it's childish! LOL I tell you, humans can be so doggone funny!!!! At least you clarified you haven't raced anything in the past 3 years/65K miles, I guess anything you did prior to that just doesn't exist or just isn't relevant, huh? ;)

    The fact that my Azera is "bloated" and can outrun a svelte TL...that's saying something then, after all, as you put it....they are pretty much even when it comes to power to weight ratio. :P

    Oh...BTW...I'm not touchy about my Azera, I'm touchy about folks that don't want to accept fact when it's presented to them. No matter what, they have to be in denial because it simply goes against everything they may believe in. There's no need for me to be touchy about my Azera...it speaks for itself everytime I jump in it and go for a ride.
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    C'mon guys, we're turning a difference of viewpoints into personal affronts and there's no need to do that.

    Lighten up, please.
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    xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Even with the TL being at the same power to weight ratio...it can't keep up with the Azera.

    Not according to some facts and test data from Edmunds and Road and Track. Current TL, or even an old 2004 model, will "easily" outperform an Azera.

    Edmunds shows 04 TL in slalom at 67.5 MPH and 07 Azera at 62.6 MPH. That difference is quite significant. (Edmunds has not done a full road test of TL since 04). 62 MPH in slalom is in category of Camrys, Accords, maybe some minivans.

    In 0-60 et, Edmunds shows 04 TL at 6.5 sec and 07 Azera at 7.0 sec. R&T shows 07 TL-S at 5.7 sec in 0-60.

    Azera is a nice car and it is in league with Avalon, Lucerne, Maxima for good bargain entry level lux interstate cruiser.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    thank you, but it is dangerous on this forum to challenge any assertions as they might relate to an Azera - don't really understand why - because, as you say, it is a very fine effort from a mfgr. that heretofore had nothing to offer in this category. I think your summation of what the Azera actually is , is right on
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    touchy about folks that don't want to accept fact when it's presented to them.

    I'll accept the "fact" when I got beat by an Azera while driving a TL. Until then, I'll take it with a grain of salt.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I'll accept the "fact" when I got beat by an Azera while driving a TL.
    and you might even get 'beat' in your IS350 - if you are not on your toes - BUT WHO CARES - it doesn't change the types of cars these are, does it? The Azera is anything but a TL and vice versa.
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah...you're talking about a slalom, I'm talking about a flat out straight run...the TL did not keep up with the Azera.

    As I stated before, it was not the TL-S, which I am well aware that the Azera shouldn't be able to keep up with that version of the TL.
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well, Captain...considering racing is childish to you, I guess you won't ever have the pleasure of finding out for yourself.

    Once again, you turn things into something else that isn't. I never said that the Azera was or aspires to be a TL or vice versa.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    From xrunner2's previous post:

    Edmunds shows 04 TL in slalom at 67.5 MPH and 07 Azera at 62.6 MPH. That difference is quite significant. (Edmunds has not done a full road test of TL since 04). 62 MPH in slalom is in category of Camrys, Accords, maybe some minivans.

    In 0-60 et, Edmunds shows 04 TL at 6.5 sec and 07 Azera at 7.0 sec. R&T shows 07 TL-S at 5.7 sec in 0-60.

    I believe he posted BOTH the slalom and 0-60.

    Although I generally don't like Edmunds's performance numbers (R&T and C&D can always manage to get better numbers) but in this case I'll take Edmunds' result driven by editors over 2 armatures in the stoplight racing.
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmm...okay, if I had raced the guy merely from 0-60...then he obviously would have won. However, I don't know of ANYONE that says, "Hey...first one to 60 wins!" LMAO I swear...a bunch of comedians on here!!!

    Anyway...we raced a good 3-5 mile stretch of road. In the beginning, the TL was in front of me, however...between 2nd & 3rd gears, I started gaining on him (he wasn't ahead by much at all) and well into 3rd gear...I passed him. After that...I was pulling away.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    According to Edmunds:

    Azera
    0-75: 10.5 sec
    1/4 mile: 15.5 sec

    TL
    0-75: 9.5 sec
    1/4 mile: 14.96 sec

    Correct me if I am wrong, at 1/4 mile you were already well passed 3rd gear right?
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Anyway...we raced a good 3-5 mile stretch of road. In the beginning, the TL was in front of me, however...between 2nd & 3rd gears, I started gaining on him (he wasn't ahead by much at all) and well into 3rd gear...I passed him. After that...I was pulling away

    and you don't think there might even be just a bit of a possibility that you were just a bit more aggressive? As noted, the TL (which BTW only came in the 258hp version in 06 - no Type S) is faster (and better handling) than the Azera and FTM any of the V6 engined cars in this group - at least in the hands of guys that test these kinds of things for a living - aka 'experts'. Hope you don't end up killing yourself trying to prove things like this. ;)
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    'trap' speeds for 14-15 second quarters will almost always be in the 90-100 mph range, which by traditronal definitions is PDQ (pretty damn quick) . Let's see though - that Azera would be pulling about 3500 rpm in 5th at 100mph - so I wonder where the rev limiter cuts in when you 'pull' this kind of speed in 2nd or 3rd - 8 grand? 10 grand?
    It appears we have it all wrong, there is a big future in following 'racing' Azeras with a wheelbarrow, something for all that shrapnel, lest we want a ticket for both speeding and littering!l :)
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmm...well, let's see. There were no mile markers out to indicate where 1/4 mile was. I wasn't watching my odometer as I was too busy keeping my eyes on the road and my mirrors.

    So to be honest, I can't say that you're wrong or try to correct you.

    What year TL are you pulling the info on?
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    2004 TL, which remain unchanged except a few cosmetic differences.
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    allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Excuse you once again Captain...the rev limiter only cuts in right before redline.

    The Azera is no less capable than your Avalon. Furthermore, you guys like to sit back and spew forth figures from numbers posted in publications and such, but until you actually go and do it for yourself...it means nothing. You're simply repeating the results of something that someone else did.

    That being the case...I'm telling you what I did in my Azera against a 2006 Acura TL. First hand experience with no reason to make anything up. I can understand if I got on here and said that I heard, through a buddy of mine, that an Azera beat a TL. Instead, I'm telling you of MY experience against a TL. No...it must be the driver of the TL wasn't being aggressive enough, he wasn't pressing the gas pedal all the way...for Pete's sake. How aggressive is one going to get when driving an automatic in a straight line??? You get no more aggressive than putting the pedal to the floor and letting it do what it does.

    If anyone is touchy, it would seem to be you because you don't want to accept fact. Again, it's okay for your Avalon to beat a 530 (on paper), but it's blasphemy that I should state that I actually beat a TL on the street...in reality!!!
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    How aggressive is one going to get when driving an automatic in a straight line???

    A 3 to 5-mile straight line with no traffic at all but there are traffic lights? Where did you find this place? I need to take my car for a run.

    Nobody said it's not "OK" for your Azera to beat the TL, it's just a little skeptical since figures from professional tests don't back it up. However, that's not the case for Avalon vs. 530i, everybody knows that the 530i is not a sprinter.

    No need to be touchy here...
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the rev limiter only cuts in right before redline
    of course it does - by George - I think you got it!
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