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Comments
As far as the '06's doing so well, hey...sometimes, the stars line up just right and everything just seems to work in your favor. Sorta like Kobe going for 81 points, the Patriots making a run at a perfect season...things like this just happen. In this instance, Hyundai hit a home run on the first at bat with a new model. Only downside to this...expectations are raised for them and it's disappointing when they don't uphold those expectations.
Like I said though...from above average to just average isn't worth selling the farm over, but if a downward trend develops with each model year...yeah, I can see Hyundai having some accountability issues to deal with.
Not saying your old, haha. But I am just about half your age - 20.
If we were going by just image in here, I'd probably take the Maxima first. As it stands I don't have a need for cars this large, I'm just an enthusiast who likes to talk about all things "car."
I obviously have no problems with Korean work ethic or abilities as I have now owned 3 Hyundai vehicles in my lifetime...so far. And to be honest, none of them were the ones manufactured here in the U.S. But here's another question...what does Korean work ethic have to do with the Ala. plant? I hardly think they shipped in a bunch of Korean workers to work at that plant. I'm pretty sure the plant is filled with American employees.
Image, I woud take the Altima over the current Maxima. You get almost everything the Maxima has to offer and more power to boot!
I worry about image myself and yet, I still ended up in an Azera...by choice.
the comment meant to imply that that a Korean built Azera might be assembled better than one from Alabama. A common perception that also includes Tennessee built Nissans, Ohio built Hondas, and Kentucky built Toyotas. I have never seen anything statistical to indicate to me that this is true or not.
Like the saying goes, if you want it done right...do it yourself.
From my understanding the Hyundai vehicles that are made and sold over in Korea and other foreign markets, are exceptional in quality. Guess maybe they feel we don't deserve that same quality, so why not let us build them for ourselves.
and that is exactly what Hyundai NEEDS to do for several more years for Hyundai to improve its image enough that the average car buyer will start to pay attention to what they are doing. It would bother me that the Co. flagship is developing some apparent quality problems in its second year of manufacture, its not like Hyundai is selling that many Azeras and they can't spend the time they need on quality control - something I perceive to be Toyota's problem in the last few years and also conversely, the reason for 'Detroit's' general improvement (along with older engines/trannies etc.) .
Hyundai's problems...well, along with terrible customer support at most of their dealerships, along with an ever expanding line-up and not knowing how to market their vehicles...they just seem to be caught up in a whirlwind with no clear cut direction (as one poster stated before). If they sit down and come up with an agenda and goals they want to achieve, then they can prioritize and get things in order. If I were at the helm, I would actually hold up on the release of the Genesis and focus on quality control of the current line-up. Which, with the Accent and Elantra doing well in their segments, it shouldn't be that hard. The Santa Fe doesn't seem to have any issues, nor does the Tucson or Tiburon.
GM is back at #1 thru. Q3 2007 worldwide; Toyota was #1 at the end of Q1 2007.
For example, Hyundai requires the use of SP-III ATF in their automatic transmissions. There is no substitute, otherwise you will void the warranty. Our local dealer uses "a Hyundai-approved SP-III synthetic equivalent." Again, there is no equivalent or substitute ATF for Hyundai/Kia/Mitsubishi SP-III ATF. It's amazing this dealership would not use ATF that Hyundai firmly specifies in their respective owner's manuals. This is one example of dealership ineptitude, but this not only applies to the Hyundais they sell, but Kia, and Mitsu as well.
All the robotics, with such precise tolerences, is amazing. The was a History Channel show about it and was available on You-Tube. Hyundai in Korea and practically other manufacturer anywhere had better build quality.
But, only the Sonata & Santa Fe are currently built in AL.
Mike
The Veracruz has back up sensors, smart key, etc.
http://www.hyundai-blog.com/?p=26
Read here(lots of pics): http://www.hyundai-blog.com/?p=26
Hyundai Genesis
I hate to say it, inept service advisors lends to bad customer service. If you're not getting what you're supposed to be getting for YOUR vehicle, how can that be good customer service? If you go in and happen to know more about your car than the mechanic that supposed to work on your car, how is that good superb customer service. Superb customer service means when you turn your keys over to the service department, you walk away with no worries knowing your car is in good hands and all will be taken care of.
Considering how the Veracruz came out after the Azera, it's not a surprise. Now if those features don't make their way into the Azera, I would be surprised. I mean...the Veracruz is the flagship of Hyundai SUV's and the Azera is supposed to be the flagship of their sedans. It only makes sense...unless, the Genesis suplants the Azera as the flagship of the sedan line up. Which, considering the specs...it would. One could look at it like this...Genesis is 1A and Azera is 1B. LOL
Unless of course, the Sonata gets phased out and the Azera takes over as the Sonata replacment, but then Hyundai would have to full sized sedans and no mid-size entry (unless Elantra steps up to fill that gap).
Funny thing, Hyundai produces HP ratings on regular fuel, not premium like most manufacturers do. Interesting, very interesting.
Please tell me that you actually read the list of appointments the Genesis will have...WHOA!!! I can't wait to test drive one!!!!
More goods:
http://www.carspyshots.net/showthread.php?t=14287&page=21
and so does EVERYBODY else now - this being part of the SAE mandated rating changes that occurred for the 06 MY. Effective then, if a vehicle is sold as able to run on 87 octane the engine must also be rated with the same - hence the reason why the 2GR, for example, is rated at 272 hp in the Lexus ES (premium) and 268hp in the Avalon and Camry (regular). You surely don't think that only Hyundai is going to rate their engines any less than they actually are, do you? There are a few engines in this that do want premium - the Hemis, the Northstar (?), and possibly even the Nissan VQ (although I know for a fact that the Nissan engine handles regular just fine). Maybe not so 'interesting'? As a 'species' I would generally put the Hyundai engines on a tier below the Toyota/Nissan/Acura-Honda engines but generally above what is produced by everybody else. As I have posted earlier, if your Hyundai engine is sophisticated enough to effectively use the extra octane, using premium gas might boost your Azera's HP by a whole 3-4 hp, maybe not worth the 30 cents/gallon?
2 things that they seem to artfully avoid talking about in this article - the vehicles weight (logically well over 4000 lbs) and FE (maybe hasn't been tested yet) even with the smaller V6s. The 3.3 figures to run 7's 0-60, the 3.8 mid 6s, and the assummed gas hog V8 sub 6s. I'll be the first to guess about 19-20mpg overall for the 6s, and 3 to 4 less than that on the V8.
A good looking alternative to things like the 300Cs and Charger Hemis - for sure and likely also for the G8/Aussie Impala. If we give Hyundai a pass and assume that magically car buyers are going to flock into Hyundai dealerships and consider this car to be a viable alternative to whatever, then why the heck would they even consider an Azera?
3.3 -- 3732 lbs
3.8 -- 3748 lbs
4.6 -- 4006 lbs
All this info, and lots more, can be found at:
http://hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2009_Models/Genesis/Press_Release.asp
I still think there are people that wouldn't buy a RWD vechicle fearing the poor traction in snow. Having said that, as much as I like the Genesis I don't see it selling for the same reason that the Azera sales are slow. Add to it a little bit of cannibalism (as you suggest) and I think Hyundai could be making a mistake bringing this car to market. Of course, it could just be a test for a year or two and the better selling vehicle will be the one that stays in the lineup. This situation would be no different than Toyota bringing in a varient of the GS sedan to the lineup and not dropping the Avalon.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Well, it is nice to hear someone think as highly of the Hyundai engines as you do. I mean...they are good solid engines, they could just use some tweaking in the FE department. However...in FE, the 3.8 is really no worse than Nissan's 3.5.
You are very right in that 3-4 hp increase is not worth paying $ .30/gal, which would possibly equate to almost $6 extra for a tank of gas if you fill it up from empty. Is it worth that much to constantly have that few extra ponies...I think not.
Maybe the Azera will supplant the Sonata.
I don't think folks will worry about rear wheel drive traction issues considering TCS. I mean...cabbies do it every winter in their Crown Vics/Grand Marquis with no problems and no TCS.
However, this presents an interesting question concerning the Azera/Genesis. It's under the same brand name and the price points for both are close with the Genesis reaching higher because of it's V-8 model. But...starting price for the Genesis is the mid-$20K's...Azera SE territory. The mid-level Genesis will probably go for between the upper-$20K's to probably right at $30K...Azera Limited territory and then the V-8 Genesis will hit the low to upper-mid-$30's....in it's own class (for Hyundai anyway).
I believe tjc78 was trying to say that Hyundai to introduce the Genesis above the Azera is like Toyota makes a rebaged Toyota GS above the Avalon. They both are going to compete with their not-so-lower-tier models.
That's different than dropping the GS from Lexus.
But...starting price for the Genesis is the mid-$20K's
I would bet you my car key that the starting MSRP for the 3.3 Genesis will be no where near the mid $20k. I would guess it to be something like $28,995. The 3.8 will be around $32k and the V8 to start at $35k. The Genesis will be a good value but Hyundai is not about to throw them away yet.
Louis hit right on the head of what I meant. Its just to me strange to have two similar vehicles in one lineup. If the Azera was selling like crazy I could understand, however, the Genesis is likely to grab at least 30% of sales from the Azera. Then what? I can only see one of them surviving, but only time will tell.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Well, it snows in Germany too, if you get my drift. (MB-BMW)
It isn't just the snow traction that FWD has over RWD. Size for size FWD should be lighter due to no rear diff and driveshaft ( e.g. better fuel economy ). Additionally, the driveshaft hump in the rear center seat will be smaller, making that seating position more comfortable.
I acknowledge that weight distribution, torque steer and understeer are a bigger problem with FWD, but in a family cruiser, so what?
Those people are also much more used to RWD and how to drive it. There is a whole generation in this country that very well may have never driven a RWD vehicle. I agree that RWD can be fine and would switch from my FWD Avalon to RWD in a minute if the vehicle was right.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I know where you are coming from, and most people would actually prefer FWD for the benefits you explain. One of the things people love about my Avalon is the nearly flat rear floor. OTOH, as these sedans get more powerful the benefits of RWD soon begin to become apparent.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Both are "large" sedans with similar engines, amenities, pricing. Yes, the Genesis is RWD and will be pricier in higher trim levels, but do you really think Hyundai has a market for 2 upscale sedans? Not even Toyota or Honda do that in their lineups. Hyundai's mediocre sales of the Azera and Veracruz should tell you something. Don't get me wrong I like the Hyundai product and the Genesis definately has my interest, I just have my doubts as to how much a success it will be.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
By the way...if the 3.3 does come out in the mid-$20K's, just send me your key in the mail and I'll come and pick the car up later on!
a common misperception and a summary of why this is a real problem - traction control systems do not CREATE traction much in the same way that SC systems don't CREATE stability. It is the folks that aren't 'worried' about it that end up in a snowbank - or worse - or even with a car stuck on the side of the road that 'refuses' to move,(in the event that the TC (or VSC) systems are working the way they should).
Given that most drivers today were trained on FWD vehicles, it becomes much more difficult for them to adjust to RWD - especially with cars with a good dose of HP. I think there is a good possibility that today's drivers won't 'like' RWD simply because it will be more difficult for them to get to where they are going (at times). RWD has several things going for it, but winter/bad road drivability ISN'T one of them - Traction control etc. or not.
PS - your GM/CV cabbies BTW that 'do it every winter' - likely have sandbags in the trunk to supplement their own experience (and expertise) in driving vehicles like that in difficult conditions - just like many of the rest of us did 25+ years ago (or so) before FWD became so popular.
BUT
per that blog article referenced in #4520 the Azera -
With capabilities and features comparable to $60,000 premium sedans, Genesis will be offered at a starting price under $30,000 when it goes on sale this summer.
where I come from 'a starting price of under $30000' does NOT mean $25k, it means more precisely what you guesstimate - 28 or 29 (perhaps even a $29995 base price?). No matter - It is a real shame IMO, that anything that is presented to be so good must also be so 'cheap'. Perhaps Hyundai would do better if this WASN"T the case and they could sell this thing for only a little less than that $60k vehicle they THINK it is 'comparable' to? Wake up Hyundai - pay some attention to what has worked in the past - call the car something else - and price it accordingly.
You are so right, the cabbies have the experience to overcome those conditions in their RWD cars, using whatever means have worked for years and years.
It was estimated that the Azera would sell for $30K from the beginning, did that happen...eh, depends on the market you're in. However, if you look at the Azera line-up...you can get a base model GLS for below $20K and a fully loaded Limited for right at around $30K. That being the case, why would be so hard to believe that the Genesis would start out in the low-mid$20's (say $24K) and go all the way up to $37K for the fully loaded big dog?
Why do they need to call the car something else???
On the flip side, the thing I see hurting sales of the Genesis is the fact that they never created a strong foothold for the Azera. While the Azera has garnered a following by those that have actually purchased one, it doesn't go far beyond that. Yeah, there's a few folks out there that give the Azera a nod and recognize it for what it is, but the fact that sales aren't exactly brisk, they are forced to price the Genesis at a lower price point.
Had the Azera had phenomenal sales, setting records for Hyundai and creating a buzz that goes further than it currently does, then I can see them asking more for the Genesis as the Azera already occupies a majority of the pricing segment that the Genesis will also squeeze into. It would make sense to start the pricing of the Genesis at around $30K for the base model 3.3 version and take the fully loaded V-8 model up to the $40K threshold.
And vice versa.
By the way, when I come pick up your Azera I expect to see stock rims on it instead of those aftermarket ones you have right now.
It's already been stated that the Genesis will start out in the mid-$20K's.
Show me a link from Hyundai of them stating that the base Genesis will start around mid-$20K's ($24k - $27k).
I'll do you one better, I'll let you just see for yourself.
You can't read too much into media print. Everyone speculated on the HP of the Genesis when it was said merely that it would be more than 300 HP. A lot of folks that I spoke to speculated in the lower range of 300 (310-325 HP). I was one thinking along the lines of 350 HP. When it comes to their pricing...well, like I said...the Azera was supposed to be a $30K car. Currently, if your paperwork has anything over $30K, it's most likely after financing, taxes, tags and title are thrown in. My Limited w/Premium was $26,081 BEFORE any rebates and trade-in were factored in. The Ultimate would have cost me $1500 more, what's pretty well below the $30K mark.
Now...the Azera line up runs from a hair under $20K (GLS) all the way up to a hair under $30K (Limited w/Ultimate XM package), and even that depends on the market you're in.
Why my guesstimate of the base Genesis to be at $28,599?
1. Hyundai has already stated that the Genesis will be starting under $30k.
2. The 3.3L Azera GLS starts at $24,235 (already mid $20k).
3. The 3.8L Azera Limited starts at $27,335 (already approaching upper $20k).
If Hyundai has any sense (that's the only risk I am taking) they wouldn't price the base Genesis lower than the Azera and definitely not to price it around the Azera GLS, which is the lowest trim. The Genesis will be the flagship of the lineup, to price it at mid $20k Hyundai might as well declare the Azera dead.
What? You need to pay a visit to the CURRENT Hyundai website.
By the way, just to make it clear, all the prices I was talking about are MSRP.