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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    And who pays MSRP???
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    And who pays MSRP???

    It doesn't matter, it's pointless to speculate anything other than MSRP because the car can cost X dollars in Atlanta but another price in Detroit.

    Nobody (okay, almost nobody) pays MSRP but everyone pays a price that's relative to MSRP. Once the MSRP is set then we can go on to talk about what will be the discount.

    So the base Genesis to have a MSRP of $28,599, agree?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    If you're gonna have one in your garage, it is because you went out and bought one. You were the one that said you would give up your keys, that statement never came out of my mouth. I love my Azera too much to consider just giving it up. Now...I may consider trading it on the Genesis.

    I do stand corrected, and you're right...which echoes a point I made earlier about having two cars occupying a similar pricing segment...not good at all.

    One thing I'm wondering, how smooth will that 3.3 V-6 be in that heavier car. I mean...it's going to kick out more HP than it currently does, but will it be working harder to do so...even with the 6-speed tranny? Honestly...I think the 3.3 should be dropped and just have the 3.8 V-6 and 4.6 V-8 as the only options for the Genesis.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Agreed.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Hyundai understands it's position, therefore...they can't create a car that would seemingly be worth $60K and put a price tag on it of $50K
    now I guess you understand why I believe the Genesis is doomed much like the Azera is - because it is unlikely (IMO) that anybody is going to give the car a look - at 30k or 40k or whatever. And I don't care how good it is - nobody will spend that kind of money for a 'Hyundai'. And as one poster said - it might just be the best thing since 'buttered popcorn'. No matter, call it something else and disguise the best you can who actually makes it - maybe a different story - if the car is that good. Maybe the real solution is to establish that new 'brand' and take both the Azera and the Genesis upmarket leaving the Sonatas/Elantras etc. to duke it out with the masses.
    Who would've thought back in in 80s, that Toyota could sell a car for 40k (at the time when everything else they made was maybe half the price) and really and truly compete effectively with those Germans? They got away with it because it was a damn fine car, had a brand name to differentiate it from anything else made by Toyota, and because Toyota already had established a good name on its own. The Lexus was successful because it was assummed that it MUST be a good car - largely because it was built by Toyota and it was. Hyundai might only score on one of those three points, which is why the problem.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Agreed.

    That's what I thought. I knew you are not that foolish to donate your Azera to be my 2nd car.

    ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think the 3.3 should be dropped and just have the 3.8 V-6 and 4.6 V-8 as the only options for the Genesis.

    I couldn't agree with you more. However, I think the reason why the 3.3 to be the base engine is that Hyundai has the keep the promise of keeping the base price under $30k. There is no way in the basement that they'll be able to do that with the 3.8 as the base engine.

    Personally I think the 3-engine option for this car is an overkill.

    For those of you who is interested in the Genesis, the 3.8 V6 is the way to go.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Come on now, I don't think you would love it like I do. It would be like the proverbial red-headed step child in your family! LOL
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Weeeellllllll...actually, they could still pull it off with the 3.8. Just have a stripped down version with only a few features, but still have the 3.8 and sell it for $29,599 and go up from there! ;)

    You are right though, the 3.8 model would be the way to go for a nice blend of power, performance and possible FE. You'll see a sprinkling of the V-8's just because folks feel a need for POWER. I'm quite content with the 263 ponies in my Azera, but with the extra weight of the Genesis...it'll probably feel the same. I can't lie and say that V-8 isn't a tempting option. :blush:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and who pays MSRP - well if you are buying cars that are in high demand - almost everybody is going to get darn close to paying that much. Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura products, in particular , tend to be sold for numbers quite unrelated to what one would expect to pay for a Korean (or Detroit) product. I assure you that in the unlikely event that the Genesis is met by adoring throngs, it becomes a car that has a waiting list, that it will be the first Hyundai in history to sell at MSRP as well - after Hyundai raises its prices and it also becomes the first Hyundai in history to maintain some semblance of resale value.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Hyundai might as well declare the Azera dead
    agreed, and really too bad, but perhaps at $30k (window sticker) it was a stillborn to begin with?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...the time will soon be upon us to find out. However, at some point...I already see a Genesis gracing my driveway. If only I can convince my wife that it's the right thing to do! LOL
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I can't lie and say that V-8 isn't a tempting option.

    The V8 will be a no brainer if the gas price is at $0.99/gallon like back in the late 90s.

    What I like to see is for Hyundai to use DI on the 3.8 to push the hp rating over 300.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    . If only I can convince my wife
    now THAT - would be a problem we all share - somehow we can't get them to buy into the old adage 'all boys must have their toys' :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Not necessarily true...it depends on the FE ratings for the V-8. Sure can't be any worse than the numbers on my Saturn Outlook, which is a V-6 and the numbers aren't staggering to say the least.

    Also, you have to keep in mind that the feds are pushing for higher FE ratings, with a standard of about 35 mpg to start off. Granted, it won't be mandated for quite some time, but you always have a company or two that tries to get ahead of the curve.

    I think Hyundai is leaving itself some room to grow, however...the word is that the Genesis coupe will have the 3.8 V-6 producing a little more than 300 HP. I guess this makes up for not being able to put the V-8 in it.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "can you clarify the similarities between the two"

    Both are "large" sedans with similar engines, amenities, pricing. Yes, the Genesis is RWD and will be pricier in higher trim levels, but do you really think Hyundai has a market for 2 upscale sedans? Not even Toyota or Honda do that in their lineups. Hyundai's mediocre sales of the Azera and Veracruz should tell you something. Don't get me wrong I like the Hyundai product and the Genesis definately has my interest, I just have my doubts as to how much a success it will be.

    I just don't see a lot of overlap between the two, at least not more or less than the next automaker. Aside from the Genesis being RWD, the engines are tuned for more output (like Toyota engines in Lexus), a lot more amenities, and obviously equate to higher prices.

    As far as sales are cocerned, I think we can all agree it's more a perception issue than a product issue. Hyundai has to work on that and they know it just as much as we do, I'd bet if you slap on a Toyota badge, for example, you would get additional sales.

    Is Hyundai satisfied with the sales of Azera, Veracruz, or any other products in their lineup? Perhaps not but the well being of a company I have no stakes in is not really my concern ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    RIGHT!!! She keeps throwing my own words at me, "I'm quite content with my Azera." Then she follows up with, "So if you're so content, why do you want the Genesis?" I already used the, I'm getting a older and I want a more mature car to fit me and our growing family. I have to come up with a new angle for this one! LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    good luck! she is probably smarter than you are.....
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    then she must've married me for my good looks, cause it sure ain't the money!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I like the idea of 3.3. Having choices are better than not having choices. Having the 3.3 is not because Hyundai couldn't put out the base 3.8L for under 30K, that has nothing to do with it.

    FWIW, the 3.3 2nd gen in the Genesis has more hp than the 1st gen 3.8 in the Azera.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    We are well aware that the 2nd gen 3.3 is going to put out more HP than the current 3.8, but you're asking it to haul around a car that will weigh more than the Azera. Wouldn't it sorta be like putting a higher output version of the 2.4 IL-4 that's currently in the Sonata, into the Azera??? I believe that the Genesis would be the first Hyundai offering a choice of 3 engines.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    100 lbs heavier. The reports coming out of the S. Korea has the BH330 running fine with the weight. Also, the Azera GLS (with the 3.3L first gen) is pulling the heavier Azera (vs. the Sonata) alright.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Having the 3.3 is not because Hyundai couldn't put out the base 3.8L for under 30K, that has nothing to do with it.

    I would like to see some real fact about that statement.

    IMO is not going to cut it.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yes...the 3.3 is pulling the heavier Azera, but then again...there hasn't been any posters that own the GLS model to find out if they are pleased with it.

    I'm not saying the 3.3 isn't capable of pulling the car, the question is...how hard will it work to do it...compared to the 3.8.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Of course it'll be running fine with the 3.3, if the 5-series is running fine on 230hp and the Charge is running fine on the sub-200hp V6 then I don't see why the 3.3 wouldn't be running "fine" for the Genesis.

    If the problem isn't price and given that the 3.8 and 3.3 will return similar FE, why Hyundai opt the 3.3 as the base engine.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Personally...I say do like Mopar did with the V-6 they have in the Charger. For the Base model Genesis, put the 3.8 with the same output as the Azera. For the mid level Genesis, use the same 3.8, but maybe tune it to 300 hp. Then of course...you have the V-8. Just my opinion.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    this is all marketing, anyway, there is no logical reason that the larger 3.8 would cost anymore than the 3.3 in any case. Not only should the FE be very similar but so should the manufacturing cost of the engines themselves. It only costs more because people are willing to pay for HP. I would imagine that the V8 model would cost a bit more to manufacture, the different V6 models probably not - just a few extra grand in the mfgrs.pocket. There may come a time (soon) when the premium trims of cars are the ones with the most economical & efficient engines - not necessarily the most powerful. Whatever sells!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    You are over-analyzing this. Your whole basis and focus is Hyundai promised the Genesis would come in under 30K for the base trim, and you speculated the 3.8 would be the base engine, but when the 3.3 engine was revealed as the base engine, you further speculated the logic is they couldn't put out the 3.8 for under 30 but 3.3 is there just to keep the promise.

    The difference in cost to build a 3.3 and a 3.8 is marginal.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    And isn't the difference in cost to build a Camry vs a Sonata or an Avalon vs an Azera marginal?

    It is in the marketing and supply & demand, regardless of how informed the buying market may be. (That's why I think Hyundai buyers are ahead of the curve.)
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 4551
    Mike
    I do believe that your pricing is incorrect.
    The MSRP of the Azera is considerably higher than the numbers that you report.
    The fact that the dealers are discounting the price so much as well as the rebates given by Hyundai indicate that sales are not as projected.
    When a model is successful, the huge discounts and rebates do not appear.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE:4574
    It is hard for me to believe that Hyundai will market the same model with 3 engine choices.
    It would cost the dealerships fortunes to floor plan all of the possible variations.
    Most are having difficult times holding their heads above water with less inventory.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re. 4583: "The fact that the dealers are discounting the price so much as well as the rebates given by Hyundai indicate that sales are not as projected".

    Makes you wonder how can they do that, and stay in business. Personally, I view their combined desperation as a gift.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE:4585
    Rightly so, although manufacturers hate to give such gifts. As do their stockholders.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,896
    " just don't see a lot of overlap between the two"

    I don't see how you don't. They are both in similar pricing categories, both large, and share 2 engines. My main point is that if Azera and Veracruz sales are slow, what makes Hyundai think they can sell the Genesis? At the rumored pricing it seems to be a steal (to the right person) and will most likely just take sales from the Azera. IMO just drop the Azera and move forward with the Genesis.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The rebates were next to nothing. The MSRP on my Azera w/Premium Package in Feb. '06 was just over $28K. When I walked in the dealership and asked them to make me a deal, they wrote up and offer sheet and the guy slid it to me...it said $26,081...this was BEFORE any rebates and loyalty cash was thrown in. Essentially, by the time I was done...I got $1000 cash back for the promotion they were running, I got another $1000 cash back for the Hyundai Loyalty rebate, then they gave me $5000 for my trade in.

    So...no, my pricing is not incorrect.

    The Azera w/Ultimate Package ran $1500 more, so that still kept it under the $30K mark.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well, Bob...as hard as it is for you to believe...it's happening. Hyundai isn't the first to do this, even still...it doesn't make any sense.

    I don't think there's much of a change that takes place between the 3.3 and the 3.8. They've probably found a away to keep the connections between the engine and the tranny the same. The only difference maybe the gearing...MAYBE.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    It is in the marketing and supply & demand, regardless of how informed the buying market may be. (That's why I think Hyundai buyers are ahead of the curve.)
    One of the biggest stretches I've about ever heard. If this were true than Hyundai wouldn't sell a car because both the Accord and the Avalon are less expensive (and generally higher rated) vehicles than Sonatas and Azeras, at least if you are going to believe 'Cost-to-own' stats etc. Yeah, it's all about supply and demand - and the Avalon outsells the Azera about 3 to 1, the Accord grossly outsells the Sonata and by your reckoning then all 400,000 of them are uninformed? Or that those folks that spend the extra money on those great German cars must, therefore, be stupid. Ludricrous.
    If what makes the Hyundai buyer 'informed' is that the cars are relatively cheap (initially) it definitely doesn't take a PhD to figure that one one out - just an ability to read! The 'informed' buyer is the one that is NOT necessarily swayed by cheap prices, large discounts, and/or mostly worthless warranties - that 'informed' buyer takes ALL these kind of things into account and then puts it ALL together with several other things and will generally buy what really costs him/her the least amount of money to drive over some defineable period of time while at the same making some concession to what he/she WANTS to drive. Don't have an idea about what 'curve' you are speaking - but nonsense - the opposite is more likely true!!!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Then I guess your proposition is to move the Genesis upmarket in pricing ;)

    Drivetrain aside, I see the Azera and Genesis overlapping as much as Sonata and Azera, Camry and Avalon, ES and GS, etc etc The Genesis starts at the upper trim of the Azera, and as it should be (similarly for the rest of the lineup - Accent/Elantra, Elantra/Sonata, Sonata/Azera, Tuscon/Santa Fe, Santa Fe/Veracruz)
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 4589
    Mike
    I have yet to see any specifications published by Hyundai that lists engine options for US model of Genesis.
    I believe that much of this information is speculation by persons, like us, participating in forums or media.
    I have seen different forums showing various pictures all claiming that they depict the final US production version.
    I guess that we will know when Hyundai makes the official formal introduction.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Actually, Hyundai has released the horsepower specs. The link below will take you to a blog article followed by the official Hyundai press release.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/detroit-08-preview-2009-hyundai-genesis-shake- s-things-up/
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    3.3L V6: 264hp (regular) | ???hp (premium)
    3.8L V6: 290hp (regular) | ???hp (premium)
    4.6L V8: 368hp (regular) | 375hp (premium)

    Official media: http://www.hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2009_Models/Genesis/Press_Release.asp
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    tjc78, it's pointless for us to speculate how well the Genesis will sell right now. That being said, I am with you that it'll steal sales from Azera and although it wouldn't be a flop but definitely not a overwhelming success like some are hoping for. I guess I'll just come back in a year and perform the "I told you so" dance, you and others are welcome to join me...

    As for dropping the Azera, I think the better solution is lies in the new luxury brand and separate dealer network. Make the Genesis, Veracruz and the new Genesis coupe to carry the luxury badge so the Azera and Santa Fe will have their rightful places under Hyundai.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    re. 4595: Make the Genesis, Veracruz and the new Genesis coupe to carry the luxury badge so the Azera and Santa Fe will have their rightful places under Hyundai.

    Not a bad idea,(seperate dealers) but something Hyundai should have done long ago. (cart vs. horse)
    Genesis competition must be licking their chops in anticipation:
    1. Without a marketing plan, how will Hyundai lure potential buyers into the Hyundai showroom? With rebates and deep dealer price reductions?
    2. Can Hyundai successfully launch Genesis without investing in training and upgrading both the sales / service departments? (3 engine choices for starters)
    3. If a potential Genesis buyer does stumble in the dealers showroom, does their low-ball Sonata sales guru take charge and make the sale?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Bob, I don't know what you've been reading or not reading, but most of the literature released has clearly stated that Hyundai plans to use 3 different powerplants in the Genesis. Base model getting the 3.3 V-6, a mid-level model getting the 3.8 V-6 and a top of the line model getting the 4.6 V-8.

    Considering the car is SUPPOSED to be coming out this year, I think it's safe to assume that the current pics that have been posted are final production pics. The only exception I can see being made is maybe a different grille treatment.

    All you have to do is go back to some of the links that other posters have posted and read...you'll see what we are talking about.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    don't you have KIA as a lower level Hyundai?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    don't you have KIA as a lower level Hyundai?

    So what's your point?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    It came out already in the S. Korea market. It's coming to US showrooms in a few months.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    1. Without a marketing plan? You know this how? You are incorrect, sir. By the way, there are marketing dollars allocated for the Azera (I know you've been complaining about it for a while now) and actual marketing are and have been done on the Azera. Mainstream automakers usually allocate much more marketing dollars to volume units (hence volume), and most of the large cars in the segment don't get as much as some other segements.

    2. Again incorrect. Sales/service departments for majority of Hyundai dealers are good. Submit a complaint to consumer affairs and/or switch to another dealership if you are dis-satisfied.

    3. stumble onto the dealers? How many units do you predict Hyundai would sell? 1? This isn't a volume unit, and it is not meant to be (if you haven't figured it out yet). I believe Hyundai is going to sell respective amounts, luxury cars sell in huge amounts anyway.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    Hyundai is the luxury brand of Kia and they cannot go any higher
    I hope you understand Jokes
    :)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Hyundai is the luxury brand of Kia

    That's like saying Nikki Helton is the responsible one between her and Paris...

    ;)
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