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both are good vehicles, so it comes down to a matter of personal preference. My neighbor has an impala and loves it. Personally I like the looks of the impala over the ford also....
Roland
has around 245 hp's, can't remember how much
hp's the smaller V6 has, but I would think the
larger V6 Impala would have good pick-up.
That's no problem in MY 500. Granted, I have the AWD version, which comes with the CVT.
Perhaps you have the non-CVT transmission, and that's the problem?
If you want to accelerate in MY 500, just mash the gas pedal, and off you go!
3.9L V6 - 233 HP / 240 lb-ft TQ
Just replace both with the 3.6L V6 and call it a day
And the SS carries the 5.3L V8 - 303 HP/ 323 lb-ft TQ
Different strokes, but I love the Grand Marquis - I'll drive them as long as I can, which will be a long time since they last so long.
I just replaced my fuel filter on my 2002, as I do every 60,000 miles. Two clips, one clamp, slip it out of the cradle, put the new one in the cradle, and reattach. It took longer to jack the car up than it took to replace.
$9 every 60,000 miles is pretty cheap insurance for clean gas.
In regard to your AWD Five Hundred, that's precisely what you have to do with my FWD Five Hundred -- mash the gas pedal and do it often. And watch the gas gauge drop in the process. I sometimes feel like I'm flogging a wounded animal.
Test drove an Impala LTZ (3.9 AFM V6) last night & this morning. Lots of get-up-and-go. Even my wife, who can't tell one car from another, commented on how much peppier it was than our Ford. Just wish it had a bit more rear seat room. Think we're going to hold out for a Lucernce CXS or Cad DTS.
That's not-so-affectionately known as "Wide open throttle lag". The tall gearing to make the EPA MPG figures look artificially good and the large engine that develops its power up high(best for 0-60 published times) - results in a car that spins up too slowly and is a total slug in city traffic.
The GM 3.6 and the VVT models from most of the imports exhibit NONE of this behavior, though. Ford and Chrysler - don't have engines like this for the most part.
I drove a 500 and it was like a very nice Coutour. Same full second from mashing it hard until it decided to spin up and downshift. Dreadful. Can't imagine what 100K miles of wear would do if the NEW engine/drivetrain felt worse than a decade old Camry.
I love the car so far. I've put 500 miles on it so far and the car drives like a dream. I've never driven an american large car so i can't say how they are, but from what I've heard, overall, Avalon is #1, Azera is #2, and Lucerne is #3. I picked the Azera because of the price and features, and predicted reliability. I test drove an avalon before purchasing an azera and couldn't figure out why it costs 6k more than tha azera. Anyhow, that's my .02$
I've considered the Grand Marquis, but rear wheel drive in Wisconsin concerns me.
The Chrysler Pacifica is also appealing, but only in the base model configuration, and that's a 210 hp engine dragging a 4,500lb car behind it! And the EPA MPG of 18/25 is optomistic, as the Grand Caravan gets that, while being a few hundred lbs lighter.
Sounds like either the Chevy or Ford will need to be floored while merging, which I do now in my 240hp Honda Odyssey and my 150 hp Dodge Stratus.
The push rod design of the Chevy engine will probably hold up better then the Ford 'modern' engine, yet the Ford has a 6 speed tranny compared to the Chevy's 4 speed.
The Ford has a 2.4cu ft bigger trunk and a taller seating stance, but the Chevy seems to have a little more passenger room width wise.
Thanks for the lively discussion tho!!!
However, as I took my 1958 driver's license test in the family '56 Lincoln (about 5000 lbs at a dollar a pound back then, some 18 feet of tail-finned car), I have "large car' in my genes, so to speak...
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
That's what the gas pedal is for.
And don't worry, ANY vehicle that you accelerate quickly (assuming similar weights and drag coefficients) is going to plummet the gas mileage while it's doing so.
Then you clearly had the 5-speed tranny. Try it with the CVT, instead. There isn't that "one second delay". I'm quit e familiar with that because of the Tauri I've owned.
On that note, I've even heard Toyota sales reps at various dealers mention 280hp (prior to SAE) on premium and 268hp (SAE rating) on regular...I could only laugh and respond with SAE.
We bought a 2007 Lucerne CX and really enjoy the smooth,
and quiet performance of the 3800 engine and 4 speed auto.
Have yet NEEDED to "mash" gas pedal to the floor in over 3 months of city / highway driving situations and have never felt a bit of the dreaded hesitation problem as mentioned in the other cars with the 263 or 268 HP.
There must be something to the torque vs. horsepower argumemt after all, as this car is rated at 197HP but feels like more than that, in everyday driving.
My old Park Ave had 170HP,and drove it for 10 years, now I have 197HP in this refined version of the Buick 3800 engine.
I think the majority of people will find this more than adequate unless some plan time doing race track skills on local highways!
I tested both Avalon and Azera before buying Lucerne.
Lucerne's engine does not sound like a jet engine, (like the Avalon did,)when doing a simple highway passing test.
Worse than that,Avalon hesitated for what seemed like a really long second before it did anything!
Lucerne does a better job at isolating bumpy roads from the driver, while maintaiting ride control,throw in the standard auto load leveling system as you mentioned and yes the choice is clear.
This car is built in the same plant as Caddy DTS and shares the same chassi(platform).
PS 28-30 MPG (highway) seems like a bonus with such a great riding "full-size car.
I think the majority of people will find this more than adequate
It's the torque at the usual accelerating motor speeds that makes the difference. Your car is producing 220 lb/ft approx from 1800 to 3300 which I find is my usual motor speed accelerating from a stop sign. Most cars won't be used at their horsepower max rated speed because they're not going to drive that fast and that would only be reached in lower gears for passing, maybe.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The 3800 is overated and most cars have good torque output at idle unless the engine is less than 3.0L like the Honda S2000. With variable valve timing OHC engines are way better than OHV unless the pushrod engine is a V8 and greater than 300 cubic inches.
Those are opinions and you certainly may have them. Just remember others have their experience with 3800s and have different opinions.
BTW: do you hav data for your statements here? "Way beter than OHV"?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Underestimating Detroit is likely what will bring them back from the brink...assuming they come back. They've learned some hard lessons and I'm excited about what they'll be offering in the coming years.
My point is that it won't take 50 yrs to make the new products bulletproof. I think they are starting out just as good as the competition...regardless of the technological differences.
and they are being built better.Bad economy and high health ins. is killing the Industry.
Quote:
Worse than that,Avalon hesitated for what seemed like a really long second before it did anything!
That's because the GM design is a brute-force old school piece of technology. It shifts based upon throttle and rpm like it should and doesn't try to out-think you.
And it costs less than half as much to fix.
Oh - it's just as reliable as the Toyota in terms of miles. Old technology with all of the bugs worked out by now.
Though - the 3.8L is underpowered for the weight of the car. The V8 otoh, is superb.
I hear you. I've had 5 vehicles with the 3.8L OHV Buick V6 and everyone single one of them performed as you describe yours. Moreover, since my father passed away, I've bought 3 LeSabres for my mother and each of them were/are (she's has a 2005 Limited currently) every bit as smooth and powerful as my '03 LeSabre. Looking forward to replacing my Five Hundred with either a Lucerne or DTS.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Worse than that,Avalon hesitated for what seemed like a really long second before it did anything!"
The Avalon behavior you reported indicates to me that you used inconsistent and jerky footwork. Yes, you can make an Avalon "hesitate" and then surge; but this is not its normal behavior. A year ago in the Avalon 2005+ forum, a few unhappy Avalon owners reported this problem. Eventually we discovered that this pattern seemed to happen mainly to habitual "toe drivers".
If you search the Avalon 2005+ forum under "gas pedal" you can find numerous reports by "reformed toe drivers" who found that by simply adjusting the position of their foot, moving the heel forward and making contact with the middle of the gas pedal instead of the bottom, this instantly cured their "hesitation & surge" type of problem. Drivers of some other types of cars also reported that changing their foot position helped with similar problems.
Sometimes you need to learn to treat a new car a little differently to get the best performance from it. This can be a confounding problem when you comparatively test various cars, if your initial setup or driving habits don't quite work for a given car and you don't have enough time to adapt during the test drive.
havalongavalon
havalongavalon
And maybe in 50 years Toyo will get their transmissions shifting the way people expect instead of having transmission problems across the line in the way their interface with the human behind the wheel.
I realize you were just trying to slam what you think is "old" but I'll take my 3800s and 4 speeds with all the torque and high gas mileage in a full size car until something better that doesn't cost twice as much to fix, if it can be fixed, comes along. Check Camry Problems and Solutions which used to be Camry Woes: Camry Woes
Now if you want to say you prefer something because you believe it's better be it based on personal experience or on advertising effect I can understand that. However don't just something by its age; the 3800 has been improved in its evolution throughout the years. Check the torque graph. Where's a torque graph for the Accord V6 and Camry V6? Does anyone have on to see what the torque is at 2000-3500, the range for starts even quick ones from lights and stop signs; it's that torque that most drivers are perceiving when they drive a car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I and many other posters have frequently bettered the posted mileage numbers using regular fuel.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I like the shifter on the floor rather then on the stalk, and the other added options on the 3LT model...
Is the additional options, including the 3.9 vs 3.5 engine worth the extra grand? (both vehicles around 28k miles).
For example, say we have these 2 generic engines...
Engine 1: 220 lb-ft/s @ 2500 RPM and takes 5 seconds to get to that RPM
Engine 2: 250 lb-ft/s @ 4800 RPM and takes 4 seconds to get to that RPM
Which engine would you choose given that their max HP output are the same? I personally would go for engine 2. The reason for that is even though it takes higher RPM to achieve the max torque but it can be reached sooner than engine 1.
Slow rev is the classic characteristic for OHV engines as oppose to the OHC ones (faster rev). Someone may not be accustom to the faster/high rev OHC (especially for those loyal domestic owners) but that doesn't mean that the OHC engine lacks the low speed kick that the OHV engine has.
This has been mentioned before, but I love how it doesnt try to out think you like other cars, you give it enough gas and it will downshift with authority so you can execute passing manuevers.
My only grip is that after about 4500 on the tach it sounds buzzy and starts to loose some steam, but no big deal. The engine really is bulletproof and has served me well. Another odd dilemma im having is the low mileage. Im getting an avg of 20mpg per tank, when the EPA estimates are 19/30. My mileage isnt that high [126XXX], so im wondering what i can do to improve mileage. About half of my miles are highway miles and i rarely gun it from red lights while in town so im usually pretty conservative with the pedals.
So yea, im happy to see these engines currently being used by GM, but they have GOT to get RID of that 4speed. I know older folk wont care to much, but most definately the younger generations of car buyers would want something a bit newer.
At 4500 RPM, the 3.5s from Toyota and Nissan are just about heating up... :P
Not necessarily. If the the engine is designed to be high/fast reving then constantly operating at high RPM won't hurt the engine. However, operating the 3800 constantly at high RPM would be another story.
The OHC engine doesn't operate at high RPM all the time. Once it gets up to speed it can run smoothly at low RPM as well. Take my 2GR-FSE for example, it can cruise at 85 mph at below 3000 RPM.
P.S. I wouldn't be caught dead with a "phart-can" exhaust.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
think that one of the problems that the 'Detroit 3' have is too many engine choices - 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 and 3.8 and 3.9 liter V6s many of which are older pushrod designs. If they could (and I'm not sure that existing UAW contracts makes it possiblreractical) eliminate all engines other than the 3.6, and use it across the board - much the way that Nissan has always done with the VQ and/or Toyota/Lexus is now doing with the 2GR. Would save GM literally millions.
Bob
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Did you log in. There's no name showing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My "must" option list briefly read: Full size car,V6,Cloth seating dual-zone auto air, smooth quiet ride.
I narrowed the list quickly: Azera,Avalon,and Lucerne.
The factory fresh Azera made loud transmission sounds as it hunted for gears not once, but 3 times,when I acclerated from several stops, and in no way did I ever "floor it", on my short 20 mile test ride. The salesman said it's "normal", it's learning how you drive.( To be honest, another Azera did not exhibit this behavior)
I thought if every prospective customer has to be taught how to drive again,before buying the new car that he is paying for,no thank you!)
In much the same way a brand new Avalon with less than 100 miles, drove just fine on a variety of back roads,but when joining the highway and reaching a speed of about 55 MPH I thought I wanted to see how the Avy with it"s 268HP engine,(31MPG) would respond, so I pushed down on the gas pedal in a normal way to cause a downshift.
The answers were instantly apparent: Poorly,Terrible Hesitation, and an unusual delay to respond.
I have driven many vehicles in my 42 years of driving,(including company owned) but now I am told that I no longer operate the gas pedal properly,and that I must learn how to do as the Toyota engineers want me to do it( their way.) It is also essential that my driving style be consistent day after day!
Well remember it is the customer that pays for this car be it for cash, or payments for many years, and I resent being told that I must re-learn just how to drive!
I also want to make it perfectly to Toyota that I am NOT a "toe-driver" as they have think I must be!
See my message # 474 as to the reasons I did buy Buick Lucerne.( No new driving skills and schools needed here)
Avalon,Azera let this customer know when your multiple, latest, computer updates and revisions, make these cars ready for all types of paying customers,and not for just Toyota engineers and the Toyota Loyalist.
Roland