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Comments
This would be the same thing that Toyota did with the original Avalon back in the early/mid 90s and is also not too much different then Nissan does with the Altima/Maxima.
My point exactly.... worked for them!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
This 'switch' is pretty much what has happened to that icon of 'the American car' the Mustang and should likewise dictate what GM does with a similar icon - the Impala. Besides a rather checkered quality related history, GM is seemingly also fighting rebate and rental car 'traditions' which along with labor costs kills their bottom line . If you think about it - what 'American' brand symbolizes quality - Cadillac,Lincoln/Mercury, Buick (?) - all of which is not particularily fair, they have improved.
Lincoln and Mercury are near death. At least Buick and Cadillac show some signs of life with the Enclave and CTS. You are right all the domestics have improved, however, they are still not able to sell without large rebates or 0% financing. The other day there was a commercial for a $3500 rebate on the Lucerne. Figuring another $3000 from the dealer, not a bad deal. Of course, what happens to resale is a whole other story.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Chinese Buick Park Avenue:
Chinese Buick LaCrosse:
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
"if you consider also the likely 'market' for the Genesis"
I contend the only market for the Genesis is current Av/Az/300/Max/Lucerne etc. You may also get a few CamCord drivers as well looking for a bigger vehicle. I know where you are coming from on the pricing advantage it does shrink when comparing the Genesis to say Avalon, however it may prove to be "more car" for equal money.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Does any 'Hyundai' model sell well, without also being the 'cheapest'? A real 'enthusiast' might consider paying 'more' for a RWD because all else equal it will likely be a 'better' car from strictly a dynamic point of view. Most buyers, however, I contend, are only buying size, price, and brand perception/resale - probably in that order- and don't give a darn about things like FWD/RWD or vehicle dynamics.
That remains to be seen. Handling at the limits yes Genesis will win. However, ride quality, NVH etc is tough to beat in the Avalon. Too soon to make any of those claims.
"Now...compare a fully loaded V-8 Genesis to the 300C/Charger R/T or the G8.."
I don't think they compare in any way other than being RWD. Well, maybe the 300 but the Charger and G8 are more performance oriented than the Genesis will be. Yes the Genesis will be a straight line performer, but I will bet anything that it will be knocked for being "floaty". The masses like a smooth ride and Hyundai will not stray from that.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Probably not currently, however, the Genesis may start to change that
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
agreed , and I don't believe that the 'normal' autobuyer is going to be able to tell the difference by driving them (FWD vs. RWD). Now if they do 'tighten' up the Genesis as opposed to the 'soft' Azera then that same buyer probably does feel the difference. That actually may work to Genesis' disadvantage, making it an even more difficult sale.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
How do you go about comparing the Genesis to the Avalon or Max when it'll have about the same power (in 3.8 V-6 form), but with RWD be a better driving car than either the Av or Max. The Lucerne in V-8 form won't contend with the Genesis in any form, heck...it's a weak competitor for the Azera.
When you weight the option of spending say $33K for a FWD Avalon vs. a RWD Genesis, even though they may be comparably equipped...I hate to say it, I think the FWD Avalon will win out. Now...compare a fully loaded V-8 Genesis to the 300C/Charger R/T or the G8...the Genesis will give you a laundry list of amenities that you won't get in the other 3 mentioned and fully loaded, the G8 will probably be the least expensive option. The Genesis will fall between the G8 and the 300C/Charger R/T.
Like you said...too soon to really know that for sure. Hyundai could very well surprise all and the Genesis could outperform all 3 (300C, Charger R/T & G8). However, when I said compare the Genesis to them...it was more in terms of what you get for the money.
As compared to the G8...the power will be close to the same in V-8 form, the Genesis will get the nod in amenities and features. As compared to the 300C or Charger R/T...the Genesis will offer more power, as well as more features and amenities as well.
Concerning performance...we will just have to see what happens when the Genesis actually drops and testing has been conducted to see where it stands as a performance sedan.
It's going to have to - isn't it? I just can't get by 'sticker shock' - imagine, something approaching $40k (or even more) for a Hyundai - and you are right - in a strictly 'what you get for the money' perspective it could be worth every penny!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
undeniably, true - the reason for Toyota's success. The comments from that Hyundai rep I mentioned in that MT article however, was that the Genesis would be more a 'sports sedan ' than a 'land yacht'. There was a comment from the article author that casts some doubt on Hyundai's ability to build a 'sports sedan'....
Also, did anybody pay close to MSRP for an Azera? Mine was 4,000 off. I looked at the Avalon Limited, but to get comparable equipment, I would have been at 5,000 more with the best offer trading in a 2003 Camry. Toyota and Lexus just do not discount their cars very much.
Biggest thing I had against the Avalon was that it looks and feels small. Also, the interior did not appear to well designed,e.g. white buttons on controls, doors over controls, etc.
Nice to tell people it is a $30,000 car, even it doesn't really cost that much.
Can you imagine a consumer looking to upgrade their Accord / Camry but otherwise pass on Avalon/Lexus/Acura. So the improved US marketing and / or Super Bowl commercials stick in that consumers mind and they remember Genesis regardless of v8, RWD or maybe it is simply a nice looking car.
They get to the Hyundai dealership and if an Azera is anywhere near a Genesis, the dealer salesperson will have to do the mother of all pitches to explain the difference.
If someone is happy with the Accord/Camry and looking to upgrade I can guarantee that the last place they'll look is a Hyundai dealership (okay, maybe KIA).
Mark my words.
Apples and oranges here. Its much more profitable for a manufacturer to build one vehicle different ways than to have two completely different vehicles in the same class.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I'll believe it when I see it. I believe that it will be no tighter than an Avalon touring. Of course, the RWD and better weight distribution will help things.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Actually, the trim Genesis expected to have the most deliveries pumps out more horsepower than every other car discussed here recently. The V8 too, also the 3.3 @ 264hp is something very efficient.
Hyundai will not have to sell a crazy amount of cars to be measured as a success. A modest 1K-2K/month is a good step tracking up. More importantly, the intangibles the Genesis (and the Genesis Coupe) bring to the table are impossible to quantify.
this according to that Hyundai rep. in that MT article but OTH if you look at the Azera or even the Sonata/Elantra/Amanti/Optima, the Koreans have seemingly discovered the virtues of 'soft', outdoing even Toyota in that respect. That ain't easy. The Genesis - a sports sedan? Like you, I'll believe it when I see it.
a big 10-4 on the government subsidies if this is the case - a 'modest' 20000 cars/year is nothing relative to the development costs of an entirely new car - in this group I would guess 100000 cars/year would cover things and also provide the Genesis with some of that critical 'market presence and recognition' , that Hyundai needs in general and also something that the Azera has never had. Pontiac is hoping for 40000 G8s/year FWIU which is fine - but only because it is anything but a 'new' car.
If someone can afford to pony up the $6K for the Genesis, they may opt for the Avalon instead. That way, they get the security that FWD will offer them, Toyota reliability and everything the Avalon has to offer for that extra $6K. If they are indeed price sensitive...then they will hop their happy tails in fully loaded Azera and call it a day.
The Genesis, on the other hand...will be an offering for those that are into the RWD sedans. Considering the Genesis is using a different suspension than the Azera...I truly believe the Genesis will offer the type of ride as expected of a car of the Genesis' nature. In all honesty, if Hyundai pulls it off...I see the Genesis being the classy performer that gives you the best of the 300C and the best of the Charger R/T & G8. Basically...a refined performer with all the bells and whistles. Which, being that kind of offering...split the difference in cost between the G8 & fully loaded 300C.
I have to disagree here. The 3.8 engine in the Azera while smooth is not the 2GR especially in the upper RPM ranges. As for ride, the Azera rides softer and that may be what you are comparing it to, but that is all subjective.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
No govt subsides. Home market. Hyundai sold at least 10,000 (probably like 12K or more) units last month, and it wasn't even a full month. Plus, the home market pricing is higher than the range here.
I am sure they can sell that many the question is: can they even produce that many for the US market?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The Genesis can benefit from the same (once it drops). If it holds it's ground well, against the cars it's competing against...the sticker won't be that much of a shock at all...considering everything you would be getting for the price.
From the perspective of 'what you get for the money', my Azera has been more than worth every penny. I can only imagine that they learned their mistakes with the Azera and don't make the same ones with the Genesis.
Pity, a good vehicle.
LOL The cabin is quite hushed during normal driving. At idle, I have to peek at the tach to make sure the car is even running. Heck, you don't even get any engine feedback through the steering wheel. However, under full throttle...the exhaust produces a nice, throaty growl. I'm not one for those loud raucus tuner exhausts, nor do I care for the loud, beligerent roar of free flowing exhausts on muscle cars. I DEFINITELY appreciate the sound of the Azera's exhaust under full throttle though. :shades:
What would make you think the price would go down after subsequent model years? They may offer deeper rebaters or greater incentives than in the past, but the price usually doesn't drop unless the car is just doing pitifully in sales.
That's all good and dandy but now the question is:
How well is the Veracruz selling compares to the RX350?