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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    One is entry level luxury, the other is near luxury...there's a difference.

    The reality is (based on how the market works) that both of them are near luxury. The differences are one is a RWD sedan with a sporty emphasis and another one is a FWD land yacht.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...and if you look at it that way, they are STILL two different animals.

    However, based on they way they are putting it out there...the Genesis will offer more luxury than the Azera. Whereas the Azera gives you a taste of luxury with some of it's offerings, the Genesis will seem more so.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    "Okay...and if you look at it that way, they are STILL two different animals"

    Yes they are.... but hypothetically: say the Taurus or Impala was a Chrysler would it make sense to have that along side the 300? Its no different than the Azera/Genesis combo. Put the eggs in one basket and let it ride, otherwise you are just competing with yourself.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    And yet...Mopar offers the 300 as well as the Charger, right? FOMOCO offers the Taurus and Montego, right? What's sad is...they are mechancially identical machines. What's the difference?

    At least with the Azera/Genesis...they may share powerplants, but other than that...everything else about them is different.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You see allmet33, your Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300 example is exactly the reason why some of us think the Genesis should be sold under a different brand with a separate dealer network.

    Do you see the Charger and 300 being sold under the same roof and same lot?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I hate to tell you this, but there ARE Dodge/Chryser dealers selling both on the same lot.

    However, with those being the same car with differing sheetmetal and different feels, the Azera/Genesis is nothing like that at all. Why can't a car company offer two large sedans? :confuse:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Do you see the Charger and 300 being sold under the same roof and same lot?

    Don't know about you, but most dealerships around here do just that.

    Jordan Frazier Chrysler Dodge Jeep - Bessemer, AL
    Greater Birmingham Chrysler Dodge Jeep - NE Birmingham, AL
    Benchmark Chrysler Jeep Dodge - East Birmingham, AL
    Jim Burke Chrysler Dodge Jeep Chevrolet - Downtown Birmingham, AL

    All of these are singular lots, not same name / different location dealers. This may not be all, just the first four I thought of.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Why can't a car company offer two large sedans?

    Of course it can but I just think it might be better with Genesis being sold under a different brand. Apparently Hyundai doesn't agree so let's just wait and see how well will the Genesis do.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Well... in my neck of the woods there aren't any places that sell the Taurus/Sable or the 300/Charger in the same building. All makes have corporate twins. I think we are talking about two different things.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    Uh, the key word in this trick sentence is "sold."
    ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, they offer both anyway! :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Move the Azera over to the Kia side of things and leave the Genesis under Hyundai. I mean...the Azera is much better than the Amanti.

    After all...Hyundai and Kia are sister companies, right? ;)
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    Veeeeery interesting idea, Allmet. Makes perfect sense for both brands in this country.

    My only worry: Does that create problems for how the two brands are marketed in Korea? Pretty safe bet that both models do better there than here. Personally, I have no idea whether it does.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I like the idea of Azera going to the Kia side. Makes perfect sense for both brands especially with Kia's need for a "proper" flagship sedan.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The reality is (based on how the market works) that both of them are near luxury. The differences are one is a RWD sedan with a sporty emphasis and another one is a FWD land yacht.

    That's funny, because every article I've read, every person I've talked to in the industry, no one has yet to categorize the Genesis as near-luxury. Yes, it is battling (in price) with many near-luxury/preimum sedans, but top to bottom, this is a luxury sedan by trade. Non-luxury makers make luxury cars, just as much as luxury makers make non-luxury cars.

    I think what you meant is perception, which is different than the actual product itself.

    With enough publicity, the perception will come around over time :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yes - but the Chrysler brand is premium compared to Dodge is it not. And I would imagine that Charger sales do poach 300 sales and vice versa - that being the problem of having two full size cars to sell.

    Is that really a problem??? As a company CEO, I wouldn't mind having that problem at all.

    Why are you suggesting that there is only one level of blue collar worker??? Why would you suggest that there aren't any that would be interested in buying the Genesis at the price it's being offered? Not everyone has your mindset.

    Why would the Azera be his better choice? If you're throwing gas prices out there, the Genesis would likely get about the same FE in 3.8 trim as the Azera does.

    They would be selling a more expensive car that's offering much more than the Azera does, why doesn't it make sense??? You guys keep making it seem as if the Azera and Genesis are evenly matched vehicles...they are not. With the Genesis, you're talking Lexicon sound system, self leveling HID's, XM & HD radio, Bluetooth, premium leather, UV reflective steering wheel, heated & cooled seats, smart cruise control, smart key...none of which comes in the Azera (save for XM).
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Genesis (along with the coupe) is really meant to be an image maker for the brand, moreso than the product itself being successful in terms of sale. As mentioned earlier, Hyundai doesn't really need to sell a whole lot to be successful (mostly protected by the home market), but the intangible attributes created from the Genesis line are very much going to track up the brand.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Move the Azera over to the Kia side of things
    OK I'll bite - what makes the Azera really any different than the Amanti? Engine/tranny/chassis are now the same, size is the same - but do understand that the Amanti is even softer than the Azera - the ultimate ultimate Buick if you will. Isn't the Amanti honestly a rebadged Azera in the same way you might consider a Lucerne V8 a rebadged DTS or a Charger a rebadged 300?
    CR recently tested the current Amanti BTW, had good things to say about drivetrain refinement (the 3.8), and price (said they paid a bunch less than the $30k sticker) but faulted it for being too soft and for subpar reliability.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Personally, I feel as you do on this, however...for the sake of argument in this forum (naysayers refuse to concede that Hyundai is producing a luxury sedan). With the touch of luxury already shown by the Azera and using the premium sedans as benchmarks...why does it seem so far fetched that the Genesis IS a luxury sedan? Oh...that's right, too many have been brainwashed to believe that the brand name is what makes it luxury.

    I for one, can't wait to sit back and watch Hyundai change the game. ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So should we stop talking about it here since this is a place for "mainstream" large sedans like the host has requested?

    I'll see you guys in the Luxury Lounge or ELLPS/ELLS boards for the continue on Genesis discussions.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...NOW the Amanti is the Azera twin with different sheet metal. Personally, the Amanti never looked like anything I wanted to jump in and go for a spin.

    Wow...if they praised the drivetrain on the Amanti, wouldn't that also mean the drivetrain on the Azera is being praised as well...they are the same. The Amanti would more than likely be even softer in ride quality compared to the Azera and the reliability thing may change now that it has the newer 3.8 powerplant in it. The Amanti suffers because of it's not so stellar history since it's been around for a minute.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Ask Mitsubishi and Mazda in the 90s and VW in the early 00s about how well did their "non-luxury makers make luxury cars" thingy go.

    So, those automakers attempted at making luxury/premium cars; the performance part is irrelevant at this point.

    This is exactly what Hyundai brings to the market - the company has made a luxury RWD sedan called the Genesis. How to the market preceives it is a whole different story althogether.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    So, those automakers attempted to make luxury/premium cars; the performance part is irrelevant at this point.

    Really? You may want to check with VW...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I don't know...every car we've talked about is mentioned...Azera, Amanti, 300, Charger, Genesis. :confuse:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    is really meant to be an image maker for the brand
    while it certainly may do just that - why in the world spend literally hundreds of millions developing a 'ground-up' car when you could do the same thing for a lot less by just improving what you got? Or maybe, as you contend, what they got doesn't need much improving. Either way a whole lot more economical to be patient.
    Hyundai's existing product line is already quite extensive, been waiting for them to follow Toyota and Nissan into that province of America called the 'pick up truck' and further license out some hybrid technology.!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    A luxury car that can be attained by the masses - what kind of idea is that? The world is coming to an end ;)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yeah, but none of them is "luxury" car like the Genesis right? Since Genesis is such a "luxury" car how does it fit in the "mainstream" large sedan forum? On the other hand if it's a "mainstream" large sedan like the Azera, Avalon and the rest how does that make it a "luxury" car?

    We are contradicting ourselves here!! :confuse:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Shhhhhhhhhhhhh. Kia had been throwing the idea around of a pick-up sorta like the Avalanche, called the Mojave.

    Anyway...the Hyundai line-up is quite extensive. ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah, but none of them is "luxury" car like the Genesis right? Since Genesis is such a "luxury" car how does it fit in the "mainstream" large sedan forum? On the other hand if it's a "mainstream" large sedan like the Azera, Avalon and the rest how does that make it a "luxury" car?

    Maybe...because of price??? Outside of that, I wasn't the one that put the Genesis in this forum, that's a move that can be requested by posters, but ultimately...the moderator sets it up. So...ask Pat.

    Why can't the Genesis be the one car that changes definitions? Why can't it be a luxury car that fits in the Mainstream Large Sedan segment?

    You're only contradicting yourself if you're not open minded enough to accept the possibilities. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    they like the 3.8 for its 'refinement' (read smooth and quiet) but notably mentioned subpar FE - 18 mpg overall.

    The Amanti suffers because of it's not so stellar history since it's been around for a minute. And Hyundai has been around for what 'two minutes', in relative terms?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    We'll just have to wait-and-see what Hyundai has in its cards down the road :)

    I am not sure about a pickup, that may be a very risky move (w/ the pickup market itself)

    But hybrid and diesel is certainly in the plans for the near future, like most other automakers, plus LPG.

    Sorry for being off-topic :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The Azera...yeah, compared to how long the Amanti has been around. The Amanti came out when the XG came out...so it's got a 4 year jump on the Azera. Not to mention the pathetic engine it started with. The Azera hasn't cut it's teeth yet when it comes to establishing reliability...wouldn't you agree?

    FE is the one department that Hyundai/Kia could stand to improve.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Fine, I am the one that's close minded and I failed to see what a potential paradigm shifter the Genesis could be... So you are saying there is NO WAY IN THE BASEMENT that thing could turn out just the other way around? Okaaaaaaaaaay...

    I may not have an open mind but at least I know one thing: "luxury" and "mainstream" do not go hand-in-hand together. No matter how one spins it, as long as the thing is "mainstream" it is no longer "luxury". Flying was considered a luxury way of travel back in the 50s and 60s, how's that for today? Cars were considered as rich men's toys in the early 20th century, how's that for today?

    I am done arguing about this but whoever think that the Genesis is a "luxury" sedan apparently have no clue about what's in the minds of those luxury car owners.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I don't believe that even you 'Hyundai' guys can point to a specific car they manufactured within the last 10 years or so with 'pride'. Those 'disposable' Excels that were made thru the mid 90s were junk by anybody's definition, and this is the car that many associate with the brand. That is what I mean by 2 minutes, and a well 'earned' reputation it is , unfortunately. But, don't feel left out - those 'Detroit' manufacturers have also improved quality as well and also are still paying the price for what they manufactured about the same time....
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    with the Genesis belonging here or not belonging here, as I see it, is that we don't know whether its pricing makes it "mainstream" or not. Do we?

    My thinking has been until/unless we learn that it is not, we can talk about it, but I'm certainly willing to be educated on that point. :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well Louis - see you're dead wrong - the Avalon is obviously a 'luxury mainstream sedan' just like the upcoming Genesis is. You're missing the ONE qualifier - heated/cooled seats! And I'm sorry if your IS/LS , your 7 series or whatever isn't so equipped, you get no ribbon - do not pass go- and go directly to the "econobox' forums! ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    my problem with the Genesis or FTM the G8 being on this forum is that neither are cars that you can actually buy right now.
    The term 'mainstream' I believe to be a primarily price distinction - much like this forum used to be 'Large sedans under $30k' . The 'luxury' part of this is of no consequence, the car in question should by most of definitions be financially attainable - and I don't mean by some college kid that might have just landed his/her first job. That would keep things probably between $20 and $35k.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The 'luxury' part of this is of no consequence, the car in question should by most of definitions be financially attainable - and I don't mean by some college kid that might have just landed his/her first job. That would keep things probably between $20 and $35k.

    You took the words right out of my mouth - I agree completely. But I think until we know for sure the price range of vehicles like the Genesis and the G8 and as long we have no reason to reasonably expect they will be out of the mainstream in terms of that definition, there is no reason to exclude them here.

    What we do need to exclude is the vehicles that clearly belong in another multi-comparison topic such as Midsize Sedans, Near Luxury Performance Sedans, Luxury Performance Sedans, etc.

    And we also need to exclude the never-ending brand wars, which somehow always manage to turn into Hyundai vs. whomever. As I've said a zillion times, there are topics on the Auto News board for those kinds of threads.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the announced starting prices and model price ranges for both cars would certainly indicate that both the G8 and Genesis would qualify - but we do spend an awful lot of time guessing what each car will actually be or do when there are no examples, reviews or road tests - which is kind of pointless?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Anyone and everyone is always free to change the subject - within the topic, of course. ;)
  • vic10vic10 Member Posts: 188
    Believe that was my suggestion about 30 pages ago. Following this thread is like watching a soap opera. Leave it for a couple of months and it hasn't progressed and you haven't missed a thing.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Oh, but like a soap opera, it is much more fun to see the non-progression not progressing on a day by day basis. :P
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    I don't really think that Chrysler is premium compared with Dodge. At one point that may have been the case but not anymore.

    Also, it is really only a problem to have two large sedans if they are not selling. If they are both winners then who cares.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    certainly all about perception - but a base Charger MSRP= $21k, 300 = $24k, top of line Charger SRT8 = $36k, 300C SRT8= $41k. More difference than I would have thought - guess maybe the 300 is standard with a bit more bling. Also note some rather heavy promotional discounts/rebates/financing now available on both- Chrysler is obviously having problems selling the thing but the US mfgrs. still try to maintain that illusion that a Chrysler is somehow 'better' than a Dodge, a Mercury is somehow better than a Ford, a Buick is 'better' than a Chevy etc. It might have worked 40 or 50 years ago, these days I think the consumer has wised up a bit.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    "luxury" and "mainstream" do not go hand-in-hand together.

    Is that how it is in YOUR mind? Come on now, running water can be a luxury to some.

    What is the definition of "mainstream"??? "generally used to mean that which is ordinary or usual with familiar appeal to the masses." (as defined on Wikipedia)

    Luxury - expensive high-quality surroundings, and the great comfort that they provide (as defined by Encarta Dictionary)

    Why in the world can't the luxury of the Genesis (high-quality surroundings and the great comfort they provide) be mainstream if the price gives it familiar appeal to the masses?

    Like I said, Hyundai is going to change the game with the Genesis.

    I am done arguing about this but whoever think that the Genesis is a "luxury" sedan apparently have no clue about what's in the minds of those luxury car owners.

    This has nothing to do with what's in the minds of those luxury car owners, this has to do with what the Genesis offers. You obviously have a limited understanding of what luxury is.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    re: having 2 full size sedans to sell
    Is that really a problem??? As a company CEO, I wouldn't mind having that problem at all.

    actually there is something called the 80-20 rule in corporate America (and beyond) - that you spend 80% of your time (and resources) selling 20% of your products. The resolution of this - get rid of that '20%' product.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Like I said, Hyundai is going to change the game with the Genesis.

    I don't think so, but we shall see.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Within the last 10 years??? The '02 Sonata. The underpinnings were already there from the previous model year and it had been doing well. However, it's quirky look didn't make it popular. However, in '02...going with fresh sheet metal on the outside, revamping the interior...made the Sonata a MUCH more appealing car.

    I agree with you on the Excel (even though I had one...an 87 that lasted to just over 250K miles).

    However, like I said...the Azera hasn't been around long enough to really say one way or the other that it's reliable or not.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Within the last 10 years
    sorry, bad use of the King's English - what I meant to say was that Hyundai couldn't point to a car made 10 years ago or more with 'pride', meaning anything from the late 90's and earlier - something you kinda confirm with your example of a 6 year old Sonata you thought was good. This, in a nutshell, is Hyundai's problem there are many of us that remember 10 years ago like it was yesterday.
    I think it could be successfully argued that the Japanese who produced a bunch of '[non-permissible content removed] Crap' back in the middle late 60s, started improving their product in the 70s, but really didn't establish a 'quality' reputation until the mid 80s. And even that was 'winning by default' because of what Detroit was doing at the time. It took something about 15 years to 'live down' their mistakes - now you think that this same kind of thing is going to change for Hyundai in less than half that time? And before you get upset, I'm not really knocking Hyundai's current products, just trying to support my contention that a Korean car is not yet thought of as a 'quality' product. This is the Azera'a problem and should also be the Genesis' problem as Hyundai tries to go upmarket with a product that is not perceived that way. 'Cart before the horse' as I said in an earlier post. It will likely change - eventually.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Putting it like that, I would have agree with you. Trust me, I was highly skeptical when I went to look at the '02 Sonata.

    However, putting it into the terms of what the Japanese makers went through...crap int he 60's, improvement in the 70's and quality by the 80's...that would mean, it's Hyundai's time. Crap in the 80's, improvement towards the end of the 90's, now we are well into the '00's with greater improvement and quality on the horizon. The thing that Hyundai has going against is are the established Japanese makers. Like you said, the the Japanese only had to overcome poor American offerings and that wasn't hard to do. Heck...even Hyundai has done that at this point.

    I hear what you're saying and the way Hyundai can change perception is be more aggressive at getting folks into the show rooms to actually see their products. I believe that Hyundai had to go upmarket to bring even more appeal to make folks want to come see what they are all about. The more appealing a product, the more interest can be generated, right?
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