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Comments
I can't say it's a waste when I look at the excellent mileage they're getting in such a big, powerful car.
In fact, when I read about the awful mileage Infiniti M35 owners are getting because Nissan short-geared that V6 for more low-speed punch, I think that's exactly what the doctor ordered for that car as well. Nissan's problem, I reckon, is that it doesn't have deep pockets like Toyota to develop one.
Also, if the FE is unchanged between the model that had the 5-spd tranny and the newer ones with the 6-spd tranny...was there any advantage gained by adding a gear????
For those of us old enough to remember those good 'ole days try:
http://www.cobranet.com/roadtest.htm
gives an idea of how many of these'250hp V6s will actually outrun many of those 'legendary' rides of yesteryear.
FYI, April '08 Car & Driver has an excellent editorial on diesel fuel and autos.
Suppose that depends on your math - the MB E320 CDI delivers about 28mpg overall, the 'equivalent' (performance wise) E350 about 20. 1500 miles per month = 75 gallons of gas in the E350 and 54 gallons of diesel. 75 gallons at $3.30 vs. 54 gallons at $4 still saves you about $30/month or about a 3 year payback on that $1000.00 - which is the MSRP difference between those two cars. Not all that bad, and that grants the continued premium for the 'clean' diesel. Diesels are much much more common in Europe where gas prices have always been high and low sulfur diesel has been available for years - why should it work over there and not here?
The impending CAFE amendments up to 35 mpg will likely make things like diesels a fact of life - smelly fuel or not. The large sedan (2 ton) and truck/SUV classes would seem to offer the greatest return in terms of FE improvement?
Technically, they do, according to the EPA. It's not as big inside as the Taurus, but it still classifies as a "Large Car" without the moonroof, something the Chevrolet Impala can't say even though it's billed as a Large/Full-Size car.
ahh com'n now - you must be fudging just a bit - your Azera should be getting you at least 20mpg overall (my Avalon gets me 27, can't imagine the Azera is more than 2 or 3 mpg off of that) - can't think of any 4 banger (even in econoboxes) that would get you 40+ overall? Heck, even those ultimate appliances called hybrids won't do that.
My old 4 banger (sorry for the off topic), but it was a 1980 Tercel (manual transmission). On heavy driving weeks, gas would last me for a week. On lighter weeks...I could go two weeks before needing a fill up.
That's ridiculous!! How big is the tank by the way?
And probably held about a quart and a half when full.
On my trip to Orlando, I would fill up and hit the highway (3 adults, 2 kids and enough luggage for all of us to stay down there for a week), average speed about 75 mph, A/C was running and I was averaging mpg. I can only imagine what the numbers would have looked like with a ligther load and no A/C!!! On the highway, I was usually getting to half a tank at about the 225-250 mile mark (depending if there were areas I had to slow my cruise speed).
Suggest you check out the C&D editorial to see why it works over there and not over here.
Note also that the big sedans which benefit so much with a diesel are RWD or AWD. These automotive diesels are normally boosted greatly with turbochargers - this results in tons of torque, and not tons of HP since they don't rev very high
( diesel combustion processes don't work at high RPM ). Since most of the "mainstream sedans" in this thread are FWD, imagine the torque steer problems with 400 ft/lbs thru the front wheels.
My previous personal drivers were Suburbans, 42 gallon gas tanks (5-600 mile range) but well over $100 for a fillup, always thought that 14- 15 mpg out of a big arss 6000 lb truck wasn't all that bad. Now I get about 400 miles+ on a bit less than $50 of gas. My personal 'contribution' to the next (inevitable) energy crisis I guess, but I do miss the 550 miles between fuel stops - even if my Toyota does get almost twice the mileage as my old Chevys.
I do get an opportunity to step into it here and there, but during the daily commute...not as often as I desire. I reserve those moments for weekend driving where I can benefit from some highway mileage! As far as burning more gas than before...the milage really isn't any different between my Azera and the Sonta I had previously. The Tercel I had, benefitted from more highway driving than city driving.
42 gallon tank, huh? :surprise: I would DREAD pulling up to the pump with that even close to "E". I tell you what...with gas prices headed to $4/gal. Instead of comparing large mainstream sedans, we'll be comparing mopeds, bicycles and skateboards!!! Greater fuel economy, more frequent trips to the pump...you gotta give to get, right?
If we can accept the fact that something short of 300 lb feet is about a maximum amount of torque that can be 'safely' run thru the front wheels then the logical assumption is that these upcoming Maxima/Accord diesels will be more like 150 hp and probably less than 300 lb feet - if the FWD 'platform' is to be used. Although the FE may get up past 30 mpg overall- these cars will be 'dogs' relative to what they are now - and the diesel - again- won't make any friends...
really no problem if you get your Exxon bill tied into a open line of credit - on your house! Since I didn't need to tow anything and my kids grew up, there certainly was no use for a big ole _UV (how can a Suburban be called a 'sport' anything?) anymore - besides which my Avalon is a WHOLE lot more fun at about half the operational cost.
I just spent 5 days in a Hertz 2008 Azera Limited with the Ultimate Package, and the Azera is one nice car. I drove from central Illinois to Charlotte, NC and back - total mileage for trip was around 1,600 miles.
The Azera handles fine - not floaty at all - much more like a European sedan. Excellent steering, handling, and a supple and compliant suspension - just about the right combination of ride and handling. I've driven M-B, older BMWs, SAABs, and Volvos most of my life, and this car doesn't "feel" Asian at all. The 3.8L DOHC V6 has plenty of spunk, and at idle, you don't even know the engine is running. The 5-speed automatic shifts very smoothly. In the mountains (including the Great Smoky and Appalachian) on the interstates through southern KY, throughout TN, and in NC, the Azera could more than keep up with the traffic - in fact, it could easily leave it behind. I really had to watch my right foot throughout the trip. Overall gas mileage, and I must note that the typical speed on the interstates even through the mountain areas was 80MPH, was 28MPG. This MPG average included two days of city stop-and-go driving in Charlotte. The highway speed sounds excessive throughout some of the mountain ranges - which it was IMO - but, if you don't peddle that fast, you'll be run over by 18-wheelers running at least that speed - especially down hill!
The amenities with this car are very impressive. And, I carefully inspected the interior and exterior build-quality - it, too, was most impressive. As good, or better, than I've seen from any manufacturer. Frankly, I came away very impressed with this car, and wouldn't hesitate to buy it. In fact, my wife is not only pleading her case toward that end, but measuring the garage to make sure it fits!
I was expecting this.
We are in that gray area, for example, the Maxima isn't a large car per EPA, while the Accord (w/o moonroof) and the Sonata are both classified as large per EPA.
If all it takes to be a 'European Sports Sedan' is a halfway decent amount of power then somehow that term must mean nothing or the Avalon must therefore be a better one. Not. This has typically been the reviews in road tests/comparisons as well - not that the Azera is bad or not a terrific value for the money, but that iit is what it is, in fact, the ultimate Buick - except that even the current LaCrosses/Lucernes aren't as 'soft' as the Azera. I do hope, however, that you enjoy your 'European Sports Sedan' though, it sure sounds like you and allmet have a great oppurtunity to get together and explore the limits of terminal understeer, and lose in that battle some understanding of what a 'sports sedan' really is..
Having said that, I have to agree with you on the Azera I find it softer than my Avalon (XLS). Handling was about the same, maybe with a touch more body roll.
If you want a sports sedan head elsewhere than anything in this forum including the 300C which dispite being RWD isn't that much of a handler either. Of course better than the Av or Az but that isn't saying much.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Personally, I'm not surprised by his experience with the Azera he rented. What he experienced on his 1,600 mile trek was exactly my experience driving from MD to FL. Only difference was the gas milage. Considering I probably had more people and more luggage, even with an average speed of 75 mph, my FE was around 27 mpg...so I think that's pretty good that he pulled off 28 mpg cruising at 80.
Is the Azera a great city car...even I would be one to say there are better. Is it terrible in the city...not at all, there are worse. I drive my Azera into DC daily and let me tell you...the streets/road here are less than desirable in terms of conditions. With that in mind, does the Azera make me wish I were in another car...hardly.
More than perhaps just opinion, there is a 'balance' associated with near equal weight distributions (and RWD) - cars that have such things along with a bit of power and the engineering sophistications, those would be 'sports sedans'.
It is entirely possible, though I would think not likely, that somebody could own what is a 'European Sports Sedan' and never appreciate it or find any use for its dynamic capabilities. It really takes no time at all for me behind the wheel of let's say a 530 to feel(and appreciate to some degree) the difference between that and my Avalon Touring - despite the fact that my Avalon is definitely quicker and certainly 'tighter' (and more responsive feeling) than the other Avalon trims as well as the Azera. That MT (?) comparo done some time ago with the 06 Av Touring/Passat/Azera best summarizes what I feel to be a proper categorization of these particular cars - and the Passat is the one that does 'better' at emulating at least some of those 'sports sedan' attributes - not the Av Touring and definitely not the Azera.
If there is going to be any 'Korean' car that can be an equivalent of 'sports sedan', I think you know what it might be.
in the same vein - the lead line in that 6 sedan 2005 comparo Avalon/300/500 etc. that the:
"The Avalon has abandoned its "Japanese Buick" spot for a position in the Sports Dept." - from C&D no less and cause for me to lose some respect for that publication's knowledge of geography.
Where exactly is this 'Sports Dept.'?
Or maybe it attains that honor simply because they got it to 60mph in 6 flat?
I understand everything you're saying about the characteristics of a European sports sedan, but again...nothing was said about the Azera being the equivalent of one. He simply said that the car didn't feel Asian. So I am still trying to figure out where you drew the European sports sedan issue out of all of this. Obviously, the poster knows how the European cars feel on the road and based on his comment...he seems to know how Asian cars feel on the road. Simply put, it was only stated (in his opinion no less) that the Azera didn't feel Asian.
You continue to debate an issue that isn't even being debated. The question was, and still is...where did YOU get the whole idea that the poster was trying to call the Azera a European sports sedan?
much more like a European sedan, and then later
I've driven M-B, older BMWs, SAABs, and Volvos
rather direct inference that somehow an Azera is comparable to those MB/BMWs etc. don't you think? This obviously the problem I have with the statement. Those Swedish brands maybe and probably because of some incurable 'Detroit' diseases (as well as the FWD) . As I said earlier it (the Azera) is what it is (and FTM what the other cars in group are) a big comfortable 'family' sedan' that also happens have decent power but is also a bit sloppy. This would not be a unique 'judgment or observation.
For my own info. the Azera has been noted to have some suspension problems - do you happen to know if this is with the 06 MY , or something that has happened since they 'improved' it?
Azera...sloppy? LMAO While the suspension isn't conducsive to cutting loose on twisty mountain roads, it's hardly sloppy. Considering it is a family sedan, highway cruiser...the handling really is pretty good.
Yes...the Azera did have a suspension problem...a "clunking noise" that was linked to an inferior strut. There is a TSB that addresses it and everyone that has gotten it taken care of has said the ride is markedly improved afterwards. If I'm not mistaken, that was only in the '06 to early '07 models. The only improvement they made after that was to continue to use the better strut for the later '07 models. As far as the '08 model, there was supposed to be some other upgrades to the suspension to give it a better ride than the previous 2 model years.
My suggestion to you IS that: relative to some of those other 'European' brands he mentioned that the Azera, the Avalon, the Maxima (less so) , the Buicks etc etc. are sloppy - and not that this is necessarily bad, it is simply what these cars are - and also something that happens to sell well in this country.
Toyota has always understood this and this is one reason (besides perceived quality) that their cars sell so well. The Sonata is 'sloppy' as well relative to some of the cars in its group, much like the Camry is - indicating that Hyundai also understands this.
Considering most of the cars in this class are geared to be family movers (some being more athleticly inclined than others), they reserve a right to some "sloppiness" when compared to sport sedans. If ANY of the cars in this group are driven as they are intended to be driven, there is nothing sloppy about any of them. It isn't until you start pushing them as if you were driving a sports sedan, that they become sloppy.
Which, like I said earlier, the highway is one place the Azera shines brightly and I guarantee you there is no sloppiness to be found when cruising at 60, 70 or 80 mph. Would you be inclined to push an Azera through twisted, winding mountain roads like a BMW...hardly (even I'm no fool). About the only one in this class you might get away with it is the Max because it has a tighter suspension than the other ones.
I see a fair amount of Touring trim, however, I would have to say that it really is the best equipped trim for the $$. HID lights, leather, roof, power heated seats just north of 32K. I asked someone if they liked the stiffer suspension in their Touring and they didn't even know it was supposed to be the "sports" model. I couldn't help but chuckle at someone spending over 30K on a car and not even knowing that. I started out wanting the Touring but it was impossible to get me what I wanted (in a decent time frame) when I was shopping, so I ended up in an XLS.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
That is exactly where your "Sports Dept" is. I still want to know what they did to that car to get it to 60 in 6 flat. They consistently get better 0 - 60 than many other mags.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
well let's see - lots of body roll, a whole lot of isolation from the road (not feeling what the tires are doing, for example) , terminal understeer (as tjc noted) as the cars tires howl in protest by being forced to go in a direction that they don't want etc etc.
Keep in mind - it is that 'isolation' that many folks like, and that any reduction in that 'isolation' is usually accompanied by correspondent compromises in ride quality. People, as a rule, are rarely (if ever) going to explore the 'limits' of the car they drive so that the more that any car can isolate them from their environment, the better. They are not a bunch of enthusiasts that buy cars in this category, as much as you or I would like to think otherwise.
I have yet to make the front tires on my Azera howl in protest by being forced to go in a direction they don't want to. Like I said...under normal driving conditions, understeer is not an issue.
I would not pretend that it could - its OK with me to know that it simply is PDQ. The same mag.( if I remember right) the 04-08 issue has a test on the 425hp Challenger (SRT8) and claims 3.9! Yeah right, that's 'supercar' territory! Makes you wonder whether Dodge isn't replacing those trannies every they get a car back from them.
The SAABs, I were referring to were those prior to GM's influence. And, the Volvo's referenced were before Ford's influence. I've owned European cars since 1968, so I know the difference. No, you don't need a kidney belt to ride in the Azera, but it's a decent combination of a nice compliant ride, and yet very decent handling. Is it a Sports Sedan - h*ll no! I never said it was - there are a number of European cars that aren't Sports Sedans either - even if the marketers say otherwise. But, the Azera is certainly a giant step up from quite a few other Asian-built (Japanese and Korean) sedans on the market today.
Spend some time with one - objectively - and not just a test drive from a dealer, I think you'll have your eyes opened too! Enough said . . .
There is no way I could have put 22's on it, no way, no how!!!
I don't think it turned into that at all. We all just have our opinions and voice them at will
The type of driving you did is what these vehicles excel at. Maybe the '08 Azera is "tightened up" a bit. Anyone who has an '06 or '07 drive an '08 yet to compare? The term "suspension upgrade" is too vague. I just know when I test drove the Azera it was noticeably softer than the Avalon I just drove and I'm not the only one who has noticed this.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Of course its not. However, take it into a sharp curve at a high speed and you will quickly see how it will become an issue. This is really a moot point. These cars are not designed for this type of driving and we all should be talking about how quiet and smooth the ride is. Which of course it is .
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Also, I've been saying the same thing about actually spending time with an Azera to truly "get it". Most of the folks that talk about the Azera haven't even sat in one, much less took one for a test spin. Then, as you said...a test spin isn't going to let you fully appreciate the Azera.