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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    "Do you think going to a 6-spd tranny was a waste for Toyota? I mean...6th gear is nothing more than overdrive (at least it is on my Outlook). I think it's an attempt to help the engine work less at highway speeds."

    I can't say it's a waste when I look at the excellent mileage they're getting in such a big, powerful car.

    In fact, when I read about the awful mileage Infiniti M35 owners are getting because Nissan short-geared that V6 for more low-speed punch, I think that's exactly what the doctor ordered for that car as well. Nissan's problem, I reckon, is that it doesn't have deep pockets like Toyota to develop one.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    lower engine speeds will, of course, improve FE but there are limits that are primarily defined by the power curves of the engine involved. An Avalon could obviously be geared to turn let's say 1500 rpm at 70 instead of 2100 - BUT the car would likely be undriveable because the engine is off any available and appropraitely sufficient torque. If the Avalon couldn't hold that 70 mph at that 2100 rpm over some normally mildly hilly terrain, and downshifts are forced simply to maintain speed - you have a driveability problem. I noticed this behavior in for example the Lucerne with the 3.8, there is simply not enough hp and torque available for what is a rather heavy car. The V8 version does much better of course because now both numbers are up even though the engine is a DOHC 'revver' much like the 'better' v6s in this group are. The V8 doesn't do much for FE of course, but it does make for a much better driving car relative to that old pushrod V6. Otherwise this hasn't changed much from the the old days - if you wanted a car to win the drag races you could put a silly high ratio rear end in it and pay even more at the gas pumps, top speed 'runs' the opposite. The best part of all of this - if you look up things like 0-60 times etc for many of those muscle cars of the 60s and early 70s, the quicker cars in this group are actually as fast or even faster, and top speeds are even higher (can you imagine a 66 289 HP Stang (did 0-60 right at 7 BTW) at the 140mph that my Avalon is LIMITED to - fuel efficiency OTH is not even close, we really have made some progress in the last 40 years or so. :)
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    Thank you for the kind words, Jimmy. And yes, the way this board has been going lately, I must admit that goal entered my mind.
  • dfwfrankdfwfrank Member Posts: 25
    Also want to say nice job in comparison. We did the same thing back in September when our 04 Avalon was up from lease. Test drove 07 AVs and 07 Azeras, did three test drives in fact. We, my wife and I, came up with basically your same conclusions. We also did not like the downsize of the trunk space in the AV, plus if I remember there were also some type of supports under the back that further decreased the trunk space of the AV. We pack a lot of suitcases when we travel so trunk space is important. We also felt that the largeness, depth, of the dash in the AV just seemed out of place. These are just our opinions and recognize that others will have different ones. The Av was nice but we went with the Azzy for now and we like it. The Dallas car show is coming up so will take the car list that another member put forth and son and I will check them all out. Know that one thing we will definitely put much higher up in consideration for next car is going to be MPGs, maybe even diesel if the ROI looks good. Wonder who, if any, will be the first of these manufacturers to offer a diesel in one of these cars.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    If 6th gear runs the same as 5th, then I would say it is a waste to be honest. In my Outlook...it can run at 2100-2200 rpm in 5th and then when 6th kicks in...it drops to about 1800 rpm. The only thing I don't like is that it slips out of 6th pretty easily as soon as you come to an incline in the road/highway.

    Also, if the FE is unchanged between the model that had the 5-spd tranny and the newer ones with the 6-spd tranny...was there any advantage gained by adding a gear????
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    your Outlook I guess must have the 3.6 HF GM engine? One (amongst others) advantages of these newer CVVTi engines is that the fact that engine can be 'programmed' to stay within efficient operating parameters thru valvetrain management of the combustion cycle. Much like we used to do many many years ago with those 'grind' cams. we can now optimize an engine's efficiency at both low and high (engine) speed operation - except that back in those days it was one or the other - not both. It also means that one of the inherent disadvantages of the typical OHC engine (limited torque at lower engine speeds) can almost be minimized. HP is what is all about when you're talking acceleration times but the inability for that GM engine to hold highway speeds at 1800 rpm would indicate that the 'fat' part of the torque curve is at a higher rpm. A typical V8 will do that (hold highway spd at 15-1800 rpm) all day because of the 300+ lb/ ft of torque they usually produce - and they can be geared accordingly. It sounds like GMs 6 speed is geared a bit too high (at least in your Outlook) for the engine's ability to handle it, but it should (somewhat artificially) increase FE. This is the same sort of thing that GM has done for years and years with the 3.8 V6, really long highway gearing that the engine has neither the HP or torque to handle well - all in the name of inflating some FE numbers. The added torque in the V8 Northstar along with the availability of that torque at a presumedly lower rpm, OTH, turns the Lucerne into a different car.
    For those of us old enough to remember those good 'ole days try:
    http://www.cobranet.com/roadtest.htm
    gives an idea of how many of these'250hp V6s will actually outrun many of those 'legendary' rides of yesteryear.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You are correct, it is using the GM 3.6, however...the one complaint I do have about that vehicle is the FE on it. However, it could be that I've never owned trucks or SUV's before to know what to expect either. I do miss the days of my old 4 bangers when you could fill up and have gas last you for 2 weeks. Now, I'm content with filling up my Azera and having it last for the week. I guess with power, you do have to concede some FE.
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    The answer to your question is Nissan, followed by Honda
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Diesel fuel is $4/gal around here, while regular no lead is $3.30/gal. Even if the premium cost of a diesel engine is only a thousand bucks or so, it wouldn't seem to be a viable monetary option. Not to mention the oily hands and concrete at the diesel pumps.
    FYI, April '08 Car & Driver has an excellent editorial on diesel fuel and autos.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Honda doesn't make a large car. Neither is Maxima a large car compared to the rest of the crowd.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Even if the premium cost of a diesel engine is only a thousand bucks or so, it wouldn't seem to be a viable monetary option
    Suppose that depends on your math - the MB E320 CDI delivers about 28mpg overall, the 'equivalent' (performance wise) E350 about 20. 1500 miles per month = 75 gallons of gas in the E350 and 54 gallons of diesel. 75 gallons at $3.30 vs. 54 gallons at $4 still saves you about $30/month or about a 3 year payback on that $1000.00 - which is the MSRP difference between those two cars. Not all that bad, and that grants the continued premium for the 'clean' diesel. Diesels are much much more common in Europe where gas prices have always been high and low sulfur diesel has been available for years - why should it work over there and not here?

    The impending CAFE amendments up to 35 mpg will likely make things like diesels a fact of life - smelly fuel or not. The large sedan (2 ton) and truck/SUV classes would seem to offer the greatest return in terms of FE improvement?
  • dfwfrankdfwfrank Member Posts: 25
    Thanks for the information. The diesel thought was only if the (ROI) return on investment was worth it. As you pointed out, if the cost of diesel is more than what I would get for the additional price the engine and other expenses of diesel, it would not be worth it. But Fuel Efficiency could certainly become a bigger player in our decisions. Interesting thought is "What would be the decision point, if any, with MPGs, that would make me decide on one car over another all other features being fairly equal?" I think it would still come down to the ROI and the price I pay for the car. Would MPGs even figure into the decision. We shall see what the future brings.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Honda doesn't make a large car.

    Technically, they do, according to the EPA. It's not as big inside as the Taurus, but it still classifies as a "Large Car" without the moonroof, something the Chevrolet Impala can't say even though it's billed as a Large/Full-Size car.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    my old 4 bangers when you could fill up and have gas last you for 2 weeks. Now, I'm content with filling up my Azera and having it last for the week.
    ahh com'n now - you must be fudging just a bit - your Azera should be getting you at least 20mpg overall (my Avalon gets me 27, can't imagine the Azera is more than 2 or 3 mpg off of that) - can't think of any 4 banger (even in econoboxes) that would get you 40+ overall? Heck, even those ultimate appliances called hybrids won't do that.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhh...Captain, ye of little faith. First of all, you don't know the distance of my daily commute. Which, only happens to be about 20 miles round trip. So...I'm only travelling about 100 miles a week. On average...I would say about 150 miles a week when you throw in runs to the grocery store and such. That being said, I only burn about a half tank of gas on city running. If I'm doing straight highway driving...I can easily see 27-28 mpg (and do so regularly). Mixed driving...it's more like about 19-20 mpg.

    My old 4 banger (sorry for the off topic), but it was a 1980 Tercel (manual transmission). On heavy driving weeks, gas would last me for a week. On lighter weeks...I could go two weeks before needing a fill up.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Okay...so let's see, 150 miles a week for daily commute, throw in another 75 for grocery store and errand runs so you are saying a tank of gas would only last you about 225 miles?

    That's ridiculous!! How big is the tank by the way?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My old 4 banger (sorry for the off topic), but it was a 1980 Tercel (manual transmission). On heavy driving weeks, gas would last me for a week. On lighter weeks...I could go two weeks before needing a fill up.

    And probably held about a quart and a half when full. :)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Off strictly city driving (and I mean strictly from the moment I leave my house till the time I show up to work)!!! Also...I never said I was only getting 225 miles off a full tank of gas. 225 miles would usually see me with a 1/4 tank left. I have run it down to the "E" before and the trip meter was at about 310 miles and it took 18 gals. to fill up from there. So, potentially...I would have gotten to about 330 miles on a tank of gas driving in the city.

    On my trip to Orlando, I would fill up and hit the highway (3 adults, 2 kids and enough luggage for all of us to stay down there for a week), average speed about 75 mph, A/C was running and I was averaging mpg. I can only imagine what the numbers would have looked like with a ligther load and no A/C!!! On the highway, I was usually getting to half a tank at about the 225-250 mile mark (depending if there were areas I had to slow my cruise speed).
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    Diesels are much much more common in Europe where gas prices have always been high and low sulfur diesel has been available for years - why should it work over there and not here?
    Suggest you check out the C&D editorial to see why it works over there and not over here.
    Note also that the big sedans which benefit so much with a diesel are RWD or AWD. These automotive diesels are normally boosted greatly with turbochargers - this results in tons of torque, and not tons of HP since they don't rev very high
    ( diesel combustion processes don't work at high RPM ). Since most of the "mainstream sedans" in this thread are FWD, imagine the torque steer problems with 400 ft/lbs thru the front wheels.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the Azera in a different world for sure and certainly must have been an adjustment - jockeying for parking spots if nothing else. Ecooboxes like that Tercel do have some advantages. From the desciption of your short commute, sounds like the 20 mpg (or maybe a bit less) should be about right for your Azera - depending on how much you are enjoying that one thing your Tercel never had - power. To get the 27 out of my Avalon, my commute is more like 50 miles RT and about 60% is on a quite speedy highway. But, in any case, you're not burning twice as much gas as you used to - are you? :confuse:
    My previous personal drivers were Suburbans, 42 gallon gas tanks (5-600 mile range) but well over $100 for a fillup, always thought that 14- 15 mpg out of a big arss 6000 lb truck wasn't all that bad. Now I get about 400 miles+ on a bit less than $50 of gas. My personal 'contribution' to the next (inevitable) energy crisis I guess, but I do miss the 550 miles between fuel stops - even if my Toyota does get almost twice the mileage as my old Chevys.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Jockeying for parking spots? Actually, I don't do that...I don't try to park as close as possible to the place I'm going if I see a lot of cars in the lot...I just head to the back where I know a space will be. People don't realize how much gas they burn waiting for a spot to open...creeping up and down each aisle, waiting to pounce on the next thing pulling out! LOL

    I do get an opportunity to step into it here and there, but during the daily commute...not as often as I desire. I reserve those moments for weekend driving where I can benefit from some highway mileage! ;) As far as burning more gas than before...the milage really isn't any different between my Azera and the Sonta I had previously. The Tercel I had, benefitted from more highway driving than city driving.

    42 gallon tank, huh? :surprise: I would DREAD pulling up to the pump with that even close to "E". I tell you what...with gas prices headed to $4/gal. Instead of comparing large mainstream sedans, we'll be comparing mopeds, bicycles and skateboards!!! Greater fuel economy, more frequent trips to the pump...you gotta give to get, right?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    have the issue - just haven't seen the article you reference. Yep, the MB E320 comes in at about 200hp and 400 lb ft. If you've ever driven one, it FEELS quicker than it actually is (something that can be said for a lowly VW 4 banger diesel as well) - it really isn't that quick - because, as you note, HP delivery is slowed by the engine's inability to pick up (and limits to) engine speed (rev). It also drives quite a bit differently than its gas engined cousins - compression braking. RWD a must, of course, and not just because of torque steer.
    If we can accept the fact that something short of 300 lb feet is about a maximum amount of torque that can be 'safely' run thru the front wheels then the logical assumption is that these upcoming Maxima/Accord diesels will be more like 150 hp and probably less than 300 lb feet - if the FWD 'platform' is to be used. Although the FE may get up past 30 mpg overall- these cars will be 'dogs' relative to what they are now - and the diesel - again- won't make any friends...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    42 gallon tank, huh? I would DREAD
    really no problem if you get your Exxon bill tied into a open line of credit - on your house! ;) Since I didn't need to tow anything and my kids grew up, there certainly was no use for a big ole _UV (how can a Suburban be called a 'sport' anything?) anymore - besides which my Avalon is a WHOLE lot more fun at about half the operational cost.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    On topic, please!
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Back on topic - Azera Test Drive . . .

    I just spent 5 days in a Hertz 2008 Azera Limited with the Ultimate Package, and the Azera is one nice car. I drove from central Illinois to Charlotte, NC and back - total mileage for trip was around 1,600 miles.

    The Azera handles fine - not floaty at all - much more like a European sedan. Excellent steering, handling, and a supple and compliant suspension - just about the right combination of ride and handling. I've driven M-B, older BMWs, SAABs, and Volvos most of my life, and this car doesn't "feel" Asian at all. The 3.8L DOHC V6 has plenty of spunk, and at idle, you don't even know the engine is running. The 5-speed automatic shifts very smoothly. In the mountains (including the Great Smoky and Appalachian) on the interstates through southern KY, throughout TN, and in NC, the Azera could more than keep up with the traffic - in fact, it could easily leave it behind. I really had to watch my right foot throughout the trip. Overall gas mileage, and I must note that the typical speed on the interstates even through the mountain areas was 80MPH, was 28MPG. This MPG average included two days of city stop-and-go driving in Charlotte. The highway speed sounds excessive throughout some of the mountain ranges - which it was IMO - but, if you don't peddle that fast, you'll be run over by 18-wheelers running at least that speed - especially down hill!

    The amenities with this car are very impressive. And, I carefully inspected the interior and exterior build-quality - it, too, was most impressive. As good, or better, than I've seen from any manufacturer. Frankly, I came away very impressed with this car, and wouldn't hesitate to buy it. In fact, my wife is not only pleading her case toward that end, but measuring the garage to make sure it fits!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Technically, they do, according to the EPA. It's not as big inside as the Taurus, but it still classifies as a "Large Car" without the moonroof, something the Chevrolet Impala can't say even though it's billed as a Large/Full-Size car.

    I was expecting this. :)

    We are in that gray area, for example, the Maxima isn't a large car per EPA, while the Accord (w/o moonroof) and the Sonata are both classified as large per EPA.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    admittedly just a test drive and not a 5 day rental but I would have to disagree with your assessment of the Azera's ride which is as soft (or even softer) than the Avalon XLS/Ltd. and certainly NOT to be construed as anything 'European' - LOL. Not even the tighter Avalon Touring can ever hope to make that kinda claim. ASnd nor will any of these vehicles ever be able tyo say something like that - not with 60%+ of the weight up front, and not with the FWD.
    If all it takes to be a 'European Sports Sedan' is a halfway decent amount of power then somehow that term must mean nothing or the Avalon must therefore be a better one. Not. This has typically been the reviews in road tests/comparisons as well - not that the Azera is bad or not a terrific value for the money, but that iit is what it is, in fact, the ultimate Buick - except that even the current LaCrosses/Lucernes aren't as 'soft' as the Azera. I do hope, however, that you enjoy your 'European Sports Sedan' though, it sure sounds like you and allmet have a great oppurtunity to get together and explore the limits of terminal understeer, and lose in that battle some understanding of what a 'sports sedan' really is..
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    I remember watching a short review of the Avalon on You Tube and they mentioned the Avalon being a sports sedan. Absolutely cracks me up. Its not even close in any way shape or form other than straight line acceleration. The other day I got a little too heavy footed in a long sweeping curve (30 MPH posted) and I got reminded that I was driving a 3700 lb FWD beast really quickly! Not that I lost control or anything just the lack of feedback from the steering wheel and the feeling of the car wanting to head in a straight line.

    Having said that, I have to agree with you on the Azera I find it softer than my Avalon (XLS). Handling was about the same, maybe with a touch more body roll.

    If you want a sports sedan head elsewhere than anything in this forum including the 300C which dispite being RWD isn't that much of a handler either. Of course better than the Av or Az but that isn't saying much.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Captain...was your test drive in an '08 or an '07? Also...the poster pointed out the fact that he has owned various European vehicles, I think he would be one to compare the ride between the Azera and the European offerings he's driven before. One thing to note, the 5 day drive was mostly on highways, which is exactly where the Azera would shine anyway. Funny thing is...the poster never said anything about the Azera being a European Sports Sedan. He simply said that he's driven European cars and that the Azera doesn't feel Asian (Korean to be correct). So...how do you get that he's calling the Azera the Korean equivalent of a European Sports Sedan?

    Personally, I'm not surprised by his experience with the Azera he rented. What he experienced on his 1,600 mile trek was exactly my experience driving from MD to FL. Only difference was the gas milage. Considering I probably had more people and more luggage, even with an average speed of 75 mph, my FE was around 27 mpg...so I think that's pretty good that he pulled off 28 mpg cruising at 80.

    Is the Azera a great city car...even I would be one to say there are better. Is it terrible in the city...not at all, there are worse. I drive my Azera into DC daily and let me tell you...the streets/road here are less than desirable in terms of conditions. With that in mind, does the Azera make me wish I were in another car...hardly.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    an '06 just after they came out and also the one that apparently has had less reliability issues than the newer ones.
    More than perhaps just opinion, there is a 'balance' associated with near equal weight distributions (and RWD) - cars that have such things along with a bit of power and the engineering sophistications, those would be 'sports sedans'.
    It is entirely possible, though I would think not likely, that somebody could own what is a 'European Sports Sedan' and never appreciate it or find any use for its dynamic capabilities. It really takes no time at all for me behind the wheel of let's say a 530 to feel(and appreciate to some degree) the difference between that and my Avalon Touring - despite the fact that my Avalon is definitely quicker and certainly 'tighter' (and more responsive feeling) than the other Avalon trims as well as the Azera. That MT (?) comparo done some time ago with the 06 Av Touring/Passat/Azera best summarizes what I feel to be a proper categorization of these particular cars - and the Passat is the one that does 'better' at emulating at least some of those 'sports sedan' attributes - not the Av Touring and definitely not the Azera.
    If there is going to be any 'Korean' car that can be an equivalent of 'sports sedan', I think you know what it might be.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    If you want a sports sedan head elsewhere than anything in this forum

    in the same vein - the lead line in that 6 sedan 2005 comparo Avalon/300/500 etc. that the:
    "The Avalon has abandoned its "Japanese Buick" spot for a position in the Sports Dept." - from C&D no less and cause for me to lose some respect for that publication's knowledge of geography.
    Where exactly is this 'Sports Dept.'?
    Or maybe it attains that honor simply because they got it to 60mph in 6 flat?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhh...well, considering the suspension was one of the things supposedly upgraded for the '08 model, it's possible that it could ride a little better than either the '06 or '07.

    I understand everything you're saying about the characteristics of a European sports sedan, but again...nothing was said about the Azera being the equivalent of one. He simply said that the car didn't feel Asian. So I am still trying to figure out where you drew the European sports sedan issue out of all of this. Obviously, the poster knows how the European cars feel on the road and based on his comment...he seems to know how Asian cars feel on the road. Simply put, it was only stated (in his opinion no less) that the Azera didn't feel Asian.

    You continue to debate an issue that isn't even being debated. The question was, and still is...where did YOU get the whole idea that the poster was trying to call the Azera a European sports sedan?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Maybe C&D was saying that in terms of how it used to be Buick-y before, it's leanings are bit more athletic. However, just being a bit more athletic than a Buick doesn't mean it should be in the sports dept. LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    where did YOU get the whole idea that the poster was trying to call the Azera a European sports sedan?

    much more like a European sedan, and then later
    I've driven M-B, older BMWs, SAABs, and Volvos

    rather direct inference that somehow an Azera is comparable to those MB/BMWs etc. don't you think? This obviously the problem I have with the statement. Those Swedish brands maybe and probably because of some incurable 'Detroit' diseases (as well as the FWD) . As I said earlier it (the Azera) is what it is (and FTM what the other cars in group are) a big comfortable 'family' sedan' that also happens have decent power but is also a bit sloppy. This would not be a unique 'judgment or observation.

    For my own info. the Azera has been noted to have some suspension problems - do you happen to know if this is with the 06 MY , or something that has happened since they 'improved' it?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Okay...he didn't say it handles comparibly to the Europeans, he said it's not Asian, but more like European.

    Azera...sloppy? LMAO While the suspension isn't conducsive to cutting loose on twisty mountain roads, it's hardly sloppy. Considering it is a family sedan, highway cruiser...the handling really is pretty good.

    Yes...the Azera did have a suspension problem...a "clunking noise" that was linked to an inferior strut. There is a TSB that addresses it and everyone that has gotten it taken care of has said the ride is markedly improved afterwards. If I'm not mistaken, that was only in the '06 to early '07 models. The only improvement they made after that was to continue to use the better strut for the later '07 models. As far as the '08 model, there was supposed to be some other upgrades to the suspension to give it a better ride than the previous 2 model years.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Azera...sloppy? LMAO
    My suggestion to you IS that: relative to some of those other 'European' brands he mentioned that the Azera, the Avalon, the Maxima (less so) , the Buicks etc etc. are sloppy - and not that this is necessarily bad, it is simply what these cars are - and also something that happens to sell well in this country.

    Toyota has always understood this and this is one reason (besides perceived quality) that their cars sell so well. The Sonata is 'sloppy' as well relative to some of the cars in its group, much like the Camry is - indicating that Hyundai also understands this.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    never could figure out why - if Hyundai has long term plans for the Azera (maybe a big 'if') why they wouldn't offer it in some sort of 'buttoned down' trim. The Touring model has been a good seller for Toyota - and it certainly does mitigate some of those 'soft' complaints that you (rightfully) hear about the Avalon.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Well...not quite sure what you're definition of sloppy is. Mine would be a terrible ride, terrible manners on any surface of road, so on and so on.

    Considering most of the cars in this class are geared to be family movers (some being more athleticly inclined than others), they reserve a right to some "sloppiness" when compared to sport sedans. If ANY of the cars in this group are driven as they are intended to be driven, there is nothing sloppy about any of them. It isn't until you start pushing them as if you were driving a sports sedan, that they become sloppy.

    Which, like I said earlier, the highway is one place the Azera shines brightly and I guarantee you there is no sloppiness to be found when cruising at 60, 70 or 80 mph. Would you be inclined to push an Azera through twisted, winding mountain roads like a BMW...hardly (even I'm no fool). About the only one in this class you might get away with it is the Max because it has a tighter suspension than the other ones.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "The Touring model has been a good seller for Toyota"

    I see a fair amount of Touring trim, however, I would have to say that it really is the best equipped trim for the $$. HID lights, leather, roof, power heated seats just north of 32K. I asked someone if they liked the stiffer suspension in their Touring and they didn't even know it was supposed to be the "sports" model. I couldn't help but chuckle at someone spending over 30K on a car and not even knowing that. I started out wanting the Touring but it was impossible to get me what I wanted (in a decent time frame) when I was shopping, so I ended up in an XLS.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "Or maybe it attains that honor simply because they got it to 60mph in 6 flat?"

    That is exactly where your "Sports Dept" is. I still want to know what they did to that car to get it to 60 in 6 flat. They consistently get better 0 - 60 than many other mags.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    definition of sloppy
    well let's see - lots of body roll, a whole lot of isolation from the road (not feeling what the tires are doing, for example) , terminal understeer (as tjc noted) as the cars tires howl in protest by being forced to go in a direction that they don't want etc etc.
    Keep in mind - it is that 'isolation' that many folks like, and that any reduction in that 'isolation' is usually accompanied by correspondent compromises in ride quality. People, as a rule, are rarely (if ever) going to explore the 'limits' of the car they drive so that the more that any car can isolate them from their environment, the better. They are not a bunch of enthusiasts that buy cars in this category, as much as you or I would like to think otherwise.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    true, because even in its 'tightened' 'sports' model trim it is still a 'soft and ultimately 'sloppy' car. Always also thought that the 'Touring' was as much about a desireable option set, the HIDs, leather etc. (and not paying for some arguably unneeded 'fluff') as it was about any specific improvement to the car's 'handling'. It seems to be the Touring model, however, that the car mags. seem to request for their comparisons. Only CR, that tested the XLS, seems to want to rate what the Avalon traditionally is.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    One thing that doesn't help the Azera in the body roll department are seats that keep the driver in one spot, so body roll seems worse than it really is. However, I have also noted when I have my aftermarket 20" rims on the car, body roll is less exaggerated because there's no tire lean into a turn. Instead of the factory 55 series tire, the 20" wheel requires a 35 series low-profile tire.

    I have yet to make the front tires on my Azera howl in protest by being forced to go in a direction they don't want to. Like I said...under normal driving conditions, understeer is not an issue.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I still want to know what they did to that car to get it to 60 in 6 flat
    I would not pretend that it could - its OK with me to know that it simply is PDQ. The same mag.( if I remember right) the 04-08 issue has a test on the 425hp Challenger (SRT8) and claims 3.9! Yeah right, that's 'supercar' territory! Makes you wonder whether Dodge isn't replacing those trannies every they get a car back from them.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    allmet, you need to post pictures of you Azzy because I couldn't imagine what does it look like with 22" rims.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    As I am back "on the road" again waiting at the airport for my next flight, I don't have time to haggle or defend my earlier statements on the Azera rental from the other posters. I didn't intend to start your typical forum "my car is better than yours" argument, but I guess I should have expected nothing less. However, I will tell you this: the car was very impressive, and I have driven my uncle's 2007 Avalon previously, so I know how the current gen Avalon rides and drives. The 2008 Azera had more suspension control, with an excellent amount of compliance (shock absorber or damper jounce and rebound control). In no way did I find the suspension too soft or cushy - in fact, my wife even noticed this from the passenger's seat. In the very curvy portions of I-75 and I-40 throughout Tennessee and North Carolina during torrential downpours, the Azera was rock solid. (NOTE: In one very curvy section of I-75 in the Smoky Mountains, I left a LS460L far behind - not to say he was trying, but it was certainly interesting at the time). The Azera tracked very well, and I found the steering to be accurate and not overly assisted. And, BTW, no front suspension "clunking" - none whatsoever, as I would have noticed this driving through a number of deep pot holes, and through less than stellar two-lane roads in western North Carolina.

    The SAABs, I were referring to were those prior to GM's influence. And, the Volvo's referenced were before Ford's influence. I've owned European cars since 1968, so I know the difference. No, you don't need a kidney belt to ride in the Azera, but it's a decent combination of a nice compliant ride, and yet very decent handling. Is it a Sports Sedan - h*ll no! I never said it was - there are a number of European cars that aren't Sports Sedans either - even if the marketers say otherwise. But, the Azera is certainly a giant step up from quite a few other Asian-built (Japanese and Korean) sedans on the market today.

    Spend some time with one - objectively - and not just a test drive from a dealer, I think you'll have your eyes opened too! Enough said . . .
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmmmmmmmm...wipe your glasses off Louis...I said 20" wheels, not 22". Also, you can visit my carspace page and see pics of it there. ;)

    There is no way I could have put 22's on it, no way, no how!!!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "I didn't intend to start your typical forum "my car is better than yours" argument, but I guess I should have expected nothing less"

    I don't think it turned into that at all. We all just have our opinions and voice them at will ;)

    The type of driving you did is what these vehicles excel at. Maybe the '08 Azera is "tightened up" a bit. Anyone who has an '06 or '07 drive an '08 yet to compare? The term "suspension upgrade" is too vague. I just know when I test drove the Azera it was noticeably softer than the Avalon I just drove and I'm not the only one who has noticed this.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    "Like I said...under normal driving conditions, understeer is not an issue"

    Of course its not. However, take it into a sharp curve at a high speed and you will quickly see how it will become an issue. This is really a moot point. These cars are not designed for this type of driving and we all should be talking about how quiet and smooth the ride is. Which of course it is :) .

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It's nice to hear that Hyundai possibly corrected any suspension issues that were existent in the previous 2 model years.

    Also, I've been saying the same thing about actually spending time with an Azera to truly "get it". Most of the folks that talk about the Azera haven't even sat in one, much less took one for a test spin. Then, as you said...a test spin isn't going to let you fully appreciate the Azera.
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