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Comments
I could SWEAR that I've said this before!!! :P
I personally don't believe there should be more than one engine choice... however, along your lines of thinking the direct injection version from the CTS would be the logical choice for the top trim Lucerne while the standard version would be a fine replacement to the 3800.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Yes you did and nobody disagreed with you.
The bottom line is that most likely the big boys like 5er/GS/E would not be effected by the G8 and Genesis. In other words: different crowds.
You are right, different crowds completely...those that want the 5er/GS/E's...and can afford them, will go right on ahead and get them. Those that want a 5er/GS/E and can't afford them...will take a hard look at the likes of the G8 & Genesis
I could be wrong, but I'm basing my opinion on how things went with my Azera. Intially, before it started showing up in showrooms...it was being said the Azera was going to sticker at a tick or two over $30K. However, my OTD price was just over $26K.
Keep in mind that Hyundai is not the only automaker who sells its cars at below MSRP (or even invoice). You can step into any Lexus dealer and get a deal that's close to the invoice on any GS350 and IS250.
It apparently won't be for any performance increase (sure sounds like the G8 has most anything this side of a 550 beat) - must be for the power folding mirrors, rain sensing wipers, and NAV system?
What I'm saying here is that Hyundai has be beaten to the punch by its logical competition - what to do now?
The cheaper Azera seems to be less of a 'deal' than the optioned out Sonata it competes with - pricewise. I think I might rather have the latter if I'm going to spend $23 or $25k - more 'doo-dads' for the dollar
a V8 GS or the IS350 in that much higher demand?
I am not sure it's the "demand", I think Lexus just decided that they aren't going to make too many of those. We can probably expecting to see the same thing on the Genesis V8 and G8 GT.
With the G8 being in publications as being tested and performance attributes being raved about...there will be considerable hype built up. Usually with hype, comes demand and with demand...steady prices.
As far as the difference with the Genesis, I still think you're comparing two different animals. If the G8 were being touted as a luxury performance sedan, then I could see a problem between it and the Genesis. The Genesis is being touted as a luxury sedan for the working class (in a nutshell). Will the G8 have the rich feel on the inside, I doubt it...it's a performer and not being touted as anything else. Is the Genesis being touted as a performer....no, it's being touted as a luxury sedan whose benchmarks include the likes of the E/M/and 5er.
Based on what you're saying...if the G8 is THAT serious, then why would one even want a 5er for that matter?
To answer your question Captain, it would depend on what type of car you really want. Don't you think? If one wants the look and feel of luxury...you certainly aren't going to get that with the G8...now will you?
It also goes beyond folding mirrors, rain sensing wipers and a simple nav system. Heated & cooled seats, HID headlights (self leveling), Lexicon entertainment system, back up camera, satellite radio ready, bluetooth...
Yeah...I would pay $4-5K more for the Genesis over the G8. The G8 simply isn't my taste for a car to own. Does that stop me from admiring its attributes...heck no. Heck, if the Maxima were offered in RWD form, it would give the G8 & Genesis in V-6 form some serious competition!!! Even by it being FWD, it could still quite possibly give it some comp.
I spent a good amount of seat time in a 550/650. There is a serious level of refinement and luxury in those products. I will not believe the G8 is at that level. I am not saying the G8 isn't capable, I am saying 99% of people who can buy a 550i would not say the G8 is the same car for less money.
have you seen pictures of or read the reviews the G8 is getting>? There ain't much lacking even vs. a Genesis. I guess my real point is that if we know the G8 has made a 'joke' out of the 300/Chargers competitively than doesn't it do the same thing to the Genesis? An interesting contradiction - a Hyundai that isn't some sort of 'value' leader.
From a technology standpoint...the Genesis is head and shoulders above the G8, from a performance standpoint...the G8 is head of that class. The Genesis is also making a joke out of the 300/Chargers...what's the point?
If you just look at the G8 and the Genesis as just two cars, your'e right...Hyundai isn't the value leader. However...can Pontiac produce the G8 with EVERYTHING the Genesis comes with and still beat it out in pricing...I doubt it HIGHLY.
Go look at the standard features and available options for both cars and tell me again that the G8 offers everything the Genesis does. Betcha can't do it!
If the G8 and Genesis are different animals then the 5er and E/GS are different animals too. The fact is that both the G8 and Genesis are competing in the same segment and have similar pricing, the only difference is that one is more luxurious and another is the better performer. Another example, would you consider that the Maxima does not compete directly with the Azera/Avalon?
People want a 5er because it's a BMW and THEY CAN AFFORD IT. Heck, if I have to choose between the two and don't have to drive around 15k miles a year I would pick the 535i in less than a nanosecond!
Geez, you really need to do something about that reading problem of yours... I brought up the IS250 just to make a case that even a Lexus does sell around invoice sometimes so that's not a "privilege" for Hyundai. Where did I ever compare it with the Genesis? As matter of fact, I didn't even compare the GS350 with the Genesis, I just wanted to point out that even cars under the luxury brands do sell at well below MSRP so you can expect the G8 to do so as well. Don't believe me? Here is an example:
IS250 w/ luxury package MSRP: $35,985
IS250 w/ luxury package Invoice: $31,478
IS250 w/ luxury package TMV: $32,246
That's $3.7K below MSRP and a merely $800 over invoice!!
of course they can. How much do you honestly think it costs Hyundai to put all those doo-dads you listed in #5945 in the Genesis - maybe a grand? And Pontiac can't do the same thing?
Perhaps it is more a case of Pontiac not wanting to go someplace competitively where it knows it doesn't belong.
Also...thank you for pointing out what I've been saying...the Charger/300 prove the point. The Charger is less than the 300. The 300 is more luxurious than the Charger and those that choose the "luxury", they pay more for it, right? EXACTLY what I'm trying to say...those that want the luxurious feel...will pay more. If they simply want performance, then they won't.
I do agree with your assessment of how it might go with the pricing intially. However, hype on the Genesis could cool down if Hyundai doesn't come up with something else between now and it's actual release. I mean...two ads during the Superbowl were great, but nothing since then...not good.
The current Maxima is more direct competition for the Avalon & Azera. The upcoming Maxima...well, I hate to admit it...will be setting the standard for the others to catch up to IMO. I mean...the interior of the 2009 Max is much, much more than it ever was. It has that quality of making one want to be in it, that it lacked before (for me). The only thing left to really find out is the driving dynamics of the machine. All this means now is that the large mainstream segment bottlenecks at the top and it'll really depend on one's preferences as to what they'll get.
Right now as it stands...Azera wins bang for the buck. Avalon wins best overall in terms of cost to operate and fuel economy as well as having the best all around ride. It would seem the Max would win in terms of driving enjoyment for those that like a more performance oriented ride. Personally, I don't think anyone can go wrong with any of the 3 to be honest.
...a case of Pontiac not wanting to go someplace competitively where it knows it doesn't belong.
A reason why I respect Hyundai for being progressive AND aggressive for trying to break the mold. One company with the ability to offer a little of everything.
It was said earlier that luxury is something that someone is willing to pay a little more for. Even with the Genesis at the price it's being offered, it's an extreme value and places luxury within reach of those that normally wouldn't be able to afford it. Is that worth $4-5K more than a G8? It is for those that want the luxury.
Having them as options, at least, give choices, especially for vehicles sold in the 30s, which isn't cheap for the masses.
This is brief plan on the Genesis from Hyundai USA, in terms of marketing and advertising:
We’re going to have a long presell to get people familiar with the idea. We’ll start with some invitation-only rides, where people can drive the car not just at an event, but for up to a week. We will put the car in the hands of opinion leaders, like politicians, journalists and other VIPs. At the same time, we’ll have ride-and-drive events for consumers. In the spring you will start to see teasers, like theater spots, and the print will begin.
We’re aligning ourselves with Concours d’Elegance [a national tour that presents luxury autos at high-end venues] as a backdrop to a ride-and-drive event. But we’ll also begin to align ourselves with some new brands, which we are figuring out right now. We are going to align ourselves with golf in places that we haven’t been before, and some premium restaurants as well. This is going to be the biggest Hyundai campaign ever, and it’s going to go pretty hard.
We’ll still have some of the same kind of platforms, of course. The Genesis will have a strong Internet campaign [Hyundaigenesis.com launched earlier this month]. And we’ll broaden our TV buys, including Monday Night Football [on ESPN] and Fox NFL football. We will continue to do our NBA stuff.
It would only make sense Hyundai takes this time to prep the launch, especially since they have a lot of areas planned (see a few posts earlier for some of the details). I think we can all agree there is a lot riding on the arrival of the Genesis, much more than that Pontiac. Hyundai almost has to come out perfect and there is little room for botching its biggest launch to date...
By the way, those superbowl ads take on more meaning than just some marketing of a new car but that is for another topic altogether...
I will see if I can poke some more details on the arrival. Regardless, don't be surprised if some dealers receive their shipments earlier than others (that actually is the case on most other vehicles as well). Also, similar to Nissan's GT-R, certain Hyundai US dealers will not receive the Genesis sedan.
I, too, have personally seen, inspected and sat in both cars. The Genesis is worlds more luxurious in ambience, materials and equipment. The G8 is rather spartan, with a lot of gray-black and plastic aluminum, and exudes the intent to go fast for cheap (relatively speaking). They will not share an audience.
In all candor, there are only two possible explanations why Captain2 seems to consistently say such implausible things. One is that he loves the attention that comes from making "controversial" (i.e., silly) statements. For the sake of charity, I'll assume it's that reason and not the other one.
Other than the recent, and now discontinued GTO, what other "performance cars" is Pontiac featuring?
Pontiac has a very long history in racing: NASCAR in the fifties and sixties, Trans Am in the late sixties and early seventies, as well as being very active in drag racing for years. They have fielded an exotic road racer most recently. Their Trans Am models have been in the marketplace until very recently, and if you've ever driven a WS6 T/A, you'd know what performance is.
They may not have had a performance car for the past couple years, but, IMO, most Americans have no problem with tying Pontiac with perfomance. Hyundai, OTOH, may have fielded a World Rally Car ( a series that is basically unknown in the USA ), but what's their racing history?
I will say that Pontiac is the sportiest make in GM's mainstream lineup. Through the 80s and 90s that was because of the Trans-Am and plastic body cladding. In the 21st Century, they haven't had anything notable though.
There are a number of mfgrs. that cultivate a performance image IMO - Nissan and Pontiac for example and also a number of mfgrs that don't have that kind of image - Toyota and Hyundai among those. The comment was meant to suggest that Pontiac may have a little easier time selling something like the G8 than Hyundai will have selling the Genesis - simply because I believe people expect that kind of car from them.
As far as the ads during the Superbowl...even Hyundai had to have speculated a release earlier this year. Why would you show the world your next offering and not roll it out 'til 8 months later??? That makes little to no sense at all. You don't see movie previews 8 months in advance, do you?
Hyundai almost has to come out perfect and there is little room for botching its biggest launch to date...
Seems like they are already botching it up. They show the Superbowl ads, which would lead everyone that saw it to believe it was going to be arriving soon. Now that I have though about it...Hyundai hasn't shown anything else about the Genesis because they don't want to kill the hype behind it by showing ads for it for the next 8 months. However, they have lost a little credibility because everyone that saw those ads is looking around wondering, "Where's that new Hyundai???"
Heck...even the folks at the Pontiac stand said the G8 was slated to hit the showrooms 6-8 weeks after the autoshow at the end of January. Well...they are already at dealers here in the DM Metro area.
I'm also pretty certain that there will be a lot of Hyundai dealers that won't get the Genesis. In my area, I can think of 3 that would get them simply because they are high volume dealers and their service departments are impeccable. I just hope the non-high volume dealers that still offer great customer service aren't left out...they could be hurt by this.
That sounds logical..... however I would say GM chose Pontiac because without fleet sales the Pontiac division would be right where Oldsmobile is. At least the G8 will get some people into the showroom and figures to sell without rebates and 0% financing deals. In other words its a car GM can possibly make some money on without having to put out a lot of development $$ since the car is just a rebage from another division.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Hmmmm...I thought this thread was "mainstream large sedans". Kind of like the Catalina / Bonneville sedans with 389ci / Tri-Power of the late 50's and early 60's.
I would be one of those people, 3 years ago there was nothing on Pontiac's menu that made it on to my shopping list that did include things like the 300 and 500 as well as the Nissans and Toyotas.
I seem to remember the GM 'pecking' order to be: Chevy-Pontiac-Oldsmobile-Buick- Cadillac. Often these lines got blurred particularily between Olds and Buick, but also generally remember that if GM was going to come out with a 'hot' car, I could expect it usually to be a Pontiac. That goes all the way back to the 50s and 60s as some other posters have noted. The G8 seems to follow this tradition, and I would imagine will be less of a 'load' on Holden's production abilities. If the G8 was the new Impala I'm don't think GM would have a prayer of meeting demand. Although 'SS' would mean something more again - wouldn't it? As it is, I would rather suspect that there will be a waiting list for the car, if it is received by the autobuyers even half as favorably as the enthusiast press. The wildcard may be gas prices - we'll see.
It can only be a good thing if the G8 'hits the ground running' and commands some sort of price premium - it might not do the US Auto industry much good, but it should help GM in their sea of red ink. It does seem that the new standards of the rental lots have changed a bit - from the old style Taurii, to now G6s, Sebrings and Impalas. The G8 does little to change that (did'nt I read somewhere that Pontiac was continuing to produce the GP just for the 'fleets'?) and wouldn't figure to end up over at Hertz (or wherever) anyway - why should GM 'sell' them to Hertz when they can do a whole lot better selling it to you and me.
Yes, there are some movie sneak previews half a year in advance, or more. I recall seeing at least one just about a week ago :shades:
Regardless, this is nothing new in the automotive industry. Toyota Tundra released a year after it debuted, Ford Flex even longer, Pontiac G8...Automaker do this for a number of reasons.
They show the Superbowl ads, which would lead everyone that saw it to believe it was going to be arriving soon.
In short, the ads were intended for combination of image elevation and sneak preview. Hyundai specifically ended those ads and stated "Summer 2008".
Alexstore - think there are some limits on the no. of cars that can be shown to be part of the group.
The G8 was specifically included, and later removed - I guess becuase it wasn't available yet. That is no longer the case - there would seem to be no reason that the G8 shouldn't be fair game (and part of this discussion) if the Charger/300 are - unless, of course, we want to limit this only to FWD Large Sedans
The Genesis, quite a different story - still not available and from the sound of it, still several months away.
Read in the latest MT BTW that the Lucerne will become a different car by 2010 - to share the G8 RWD platform - guess it must be low volume enough that GM figures that Hoden can keep up with the added production. Figuring that the Buick version should be a 'softened' Pontiac, may offer a good choice in this case, if GM doesn't go hog wild with the 'Buickifying'.
Only if GM is determined to appeal to the dead.
Of course, they are an ever-expanding demographic. :P
I did say that I want to avoid including the Genesis in this discussion until we find out if it actually fits the criteria. We won't know that until we know the pricing.
So Alex, the bottom line is the G8 is in, other mainstream large sedans that aren't listed are in as long as they do fit the category, and the Genesis is out - for now.