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Comments
you might want to research this a bit more - it appears that Intellichoice' s TCO is based on a $27320.00 purchase price. I'm hearing a number of claims of actual purchase prices in the $23-$24 range (Limiteds). If this is the case that 'value' rating may be skewed by $3 or 4 k (plus the costs of financing that extra money).
This kinda thing happens when a car with a questionable resale value history is a slow seller and therefore picks up some more discounts as time passes - it's generally not so good for those that did spend the higher price, but can have a significant impact on TCO depending on what numbers are used to determine those costs.
The thing that would surprise me is why the Taurus isn't effected in the same way - it too is not selling terribly well (nothing really is right now) and apparently can also be bought at a bigger discount.
Note - this is for the non DI version, naturally.
But these engines are fantastic. I test drove an Avalon and it felt like a larger 3800. there wasn't the maximum power at any speed like the GM 3.6. Basically if you are gong over 10-15mph, it's already at that long plateau/near maximum torque. Most of all, though, even in overdrive at 65mph, you're *this* close to it as well. There's no throttle lag at all, which is why it doesn't feel like a "Buick". :P
LaCrosse CXS:
Horsepower: 240 @ 6000 RPM
Torque (lb-ft): 225 @ 2000 RPM
Avalon:
Horsepower: 268 @ 6200 RPM
Torque (lb-ft): 248 @ 4700 RPM
Ah yes, you are right indeed... :confuse:
I don't know what kind of magical thing you were smoking when you went to test drive the Avalon but based on your experience, whatever you drove is not an Avalon. Also, cruising at 65 mph, torque really doesn't matter anymore. If you want to pass at that speed all you need to do is step hard on the gas and the engine will downshift with RPM jump to around 4k, at that point, you'll have all the torque you need.
By the way, comments like "I test drove an Avalon and it felt like a larger 3800" isn't really helping the credibility of your post at all.
So...if you're turning 30K miles a year, it might even be in your best interest to pay the extra money for the extended warranty that bumps all the other main warranties up to the same 10yr/100k miles as the power-train. Not sure if that's something you can do with a Taurus. Also, not sure about the build of the 3.5 in the Taurus, but I know for a fact that the 3.8 in the Azera uses a timing chain, so that's one aspect you don't have to worry about (like I did with my '02 Sonata).
gearing BTW has very little to do with anything in this context - the reason why that 'fantastic' 3.6 moves quicker at lower speeds is all about HP the product of your precious torque and the ability of that particular engine to increase engine speed freely - the same thing you'll find in the Toyota 2GR, the Nissan VQ, and FTM the Hyundai 3.8.
Reread post 6090 and maybe you'll understand that torque is worthless (it's a STATIC measurement) without an engine's ability to turn it into HP. The engines in this group that you can (and do) efficiently use the torque they produce include your 3.6, the Toyota and Nissan 3.5s and the Hyundai 3.8 (among others) - the engines that don't are things like your 3.8 liter dinosaur along with some slightly more recent pushrod v6s found in Impalas.
That is just where the 2GR becomes really sweet!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The top model is the " Super " which comes with the 300HP pushrod 5.3. If you drove the " Super " it's no wonder it felt like a small block V8 - it is one.
Apparently GM has allocated only one camshaft per LaCrosse, so the 4 cam, 3.6L V6 is gone.
Scott
When I was much younger, I purchased a car that would have been perfect for me, except that I was hit 5 months afterward, totaling the car. Since it was a model with a high up-front devaluation (similar to Hundai's and Kia's at this stage in their development in the USA market), I wound up being upside down in the loan after payoff. It was a financially difficult time, when to me, a nickel was the size of a Conestoga wagon wheel.
Not any disagreement here, but just one more thing to consider when buying a car...
True enough - but an odd perspective - worrying about a car's value just in case it is totalled. In this case I would guess that you would have a 'value' problem almost regardless of what you bought, Ford or Hyundai, or even had you 'sprung' for the more expensive Avalon with usually higher resale values.
When I bought my Avalon (with a substantial (5 figure) down payment) and financed the rest - the dealer was 'disappointed' that he couldn't justify selling me some additional 'upside down' insurance - something that covers the difference between a car's market value and what you might owe on it. The point being that it is possible to insure yourself against the 'upside down' stuff, and while it may be more likely to happen on cars with traditionally higher depreciation, it also happens to the Toyotas of the world. Some added peace of mind I guess in that unlikely event that you total a new car.
The maximum torque for the 3.6 is roughly 2000rpm, but that is literally 2-5% higher - a slight blip - than the rest of the torque curve. ie - you get roughly 200 lb-ft at 1600rpm. That's right where the thing is in overdrive at 65-70mph. You don't need to drop a gear to pass someone.
LaCrosse CXS:
Horsepower: 240 6000 RPM
Torque (lb-ft): 225 2000 RPM(roughly 200 or so at 1600, and stays above 200 until redline)
Avalon:
Horsepower: 268 6200 RPM
Torque (lb-ft): 248 4700 RPM (1600 rpm is closer to 150lb-ft)
You have to rev it really hard to get that power. The problem is that with its mega-speed transmission, it has two modes. Grandmother and drop down several gears to pass. Getting it to do a normal roll-on from 40-60mph is not something that it wants to do without down-shifting. GM's mating the older CXS with the 3.6 and their 4 speed transmission means it will stay in a gear to utilize that power for longer.
It really does drive much better in city traffic as a result. Other than it being FWD, it actually was better than the CTS 3.6 as well. Oh, and it had the same basic suspension as the last generation CTS.(2007 CTS base vs CXS = about the same)
Why they dropped that sweet engine/trans combination I just don't know. The V8 is front-heavy, gets poor gas mileage, and doesn't drive really much differently due to it being an old pushrod they yanked from their truck division. Maybe it pulls a little harder than the 3.6, but in traffic, power comes on much slower.
Do you have the torque curve to back that up? Last I checked the 2GR has a rather flat torque curve so I would say 1600 rpm is probably more likely to be 200 lb-ft. Also, what's wrong with down-shifting when I have the taller gear at cruise which returns better FE than that ancient 4-speed?
do you know that or just guessing ? Not that GM is above some 'gearing tricks' (they've done that for years and years with the 3.8) - it is really low (the Avalon turns 2100 at 70) It would figure that the EPA highway mileage would be better than it is if your 1600 rpm is right. :confuse:
Lucerne Super:
- 4.6L Northstar V-8
- 292 horsepower
- 288 lb.-ft. of torque
- MSRP: $39,395 (including a $765 destination freight charge)
Lucerne CXL Special Edition V-6:
- 3.8L V-6
- 197 horsepower
- 227 lb.-ft. of torque
- MSRP: $32,150 (including a $765 destination freight charge)
Lucerne CXL Special Edition V-8:
- Northstar 4.6L V-8
- 275 horsepower
- 295 lb.-ft. of torque
- MSRP: $33,850 (including a $765 destination freight charge)
Source: Buick Lucerne Super finally arrives, brings CXL Special Edition with it
$40k for a Buick? $32k for a Buick with an ancient V6 that produces less than 200hp? What the heck are they thinking? To be honest, at $34k the V8 CXL Special Edition is not that bad of a deal if one is into V8 American land yachts but that brings up the question: Who the heck is going to buy the Super given that the CXL Special Edition has similar performance with $6k less? :confuse:
If Buick is tired of selling sedans they should just tell us...
Its amazing the thinking that goes on over at Buick.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
What thinking? :surprise:
You really have to wonder what's going on (or maybe not going on) in the minds of GM's corporate planning management division...
I see your point, but, the TC/GM/CV have one foot in the grave already. I would say without fleet sales they would be gone. The TC in its current form dates back to 1990 with only sheet metal changes. The "panther" platform I believe goes back to 1980! Still they are surpisingly good driving/riding cars other than being totally uncompetitive in their respective classes.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
In my town the "old" folks drive 750s, AMG 500s, etc. :surprise So I don't have a basis of "comparison".
actually that V6 (with DI the 3.6 can exceed 300hp) is also capable of matching the V8 in the Super - $40k for a Buick is OK because nobody who actually buys the things expects to pay even 'invoice' for it. Kinda of a Catch-22 for a number of manufacturers these days and not limited to just GM/Buick - but the pricing theory does work, overprice something that you intend on discounting heavily and the customers somehow think they got something for nothing when, in fact, they only got exactly what they were willing to pay for. Does wreak havoc with those resale values though, and a jewelry/furniture store type of philosophy that only proves PT Barnum's adage?
The only reason that the platform is even around is because of the fleets. Ask any NY cabbie and many law enforcement personnel what the vehicle of choice is. The cars can take a beating. The TC survives because they are making the CV anyway. IF Ford wanted to they could have dropped in the 4.6L DOHC from the Mark VIII anytime they wanted.
I see your point about older people driving them... heck my Grandfather has had nothing but TCs/ or GMs my whole life. I tried to get him into an Avalon last time and got laughed at. Although he does like my Avalon at 80 its hard to change his mind. V8 and RWD the only way for him!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
There is, however, something that can be said for these heaving, space and fuel inefficient dinosaurs - most any 'shade tree' mechanic can repair them easily from parts available in the salvage yards.
Would suggest to you that this particular vehicle type - large sedan and given the fact that they are generally the more expensive 'top of the line' models would lend itself quite naturally to an Avalon-type demographic. The Maxima and possibly the 300/Charger would likely be more appealing to those younger folks but still have an 'older' owner then most other vehicles.
Haven't been on a Ford lot in while, but last time I was there were a few CVs for purchase. Nicer ones w/leather and the toys. I did a search of our local Linc/Merc dealer and they had all of 1 TC in their new inventory. Funny, when I drive by it there appears to be many late model TCs probably all "program" cars. You would have to be a little off your rocker to spend 45K+ on a new one when you can get a one year old low mileage example under 30K.
There is, however, something that can be said for these heaving, space and fuel inefficient dinosaurs
I have a soft spot for full size Fords. My first car was a GM and I had a mint '89 TC that I sold a few years back. I do like them, however I would never have one as a daily driver. My Solara handled the duties when I had that car, and there are even better choices now!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I too drove a sequence of CVs (company cars) for many years and while they might have been somewhat unremarkable in most respects, they were reliable and they did provide what they were supposed to - comfortable transportation for me and whoever I was taking to lunch.
What I find funny is how much roomier our Avalons (Azera, Taurus, Lucerne, also) are. You would think with the overall size difference that they would have bigger back seats. I guess FWD layouts are good for something.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Guess they are - and for many folks FWD cars are safer for them to drive.
I believe that these spiraling gas prices will put a hold on all these HP increases we've been seeing lately so that the TS problems that come with high HP and FWD will become less of an issue and that FE problems may also slow down this movement that seems to be catching on towards RWD. Furthermore I would think that these higher HP V8s will become a tough sell even if it is something as powerful and apparently as capable as the G8 GT. Time will tell, of course, but I'd rather be selling my Avalon right now than trying to get my money out of a 300C, for example.
Looks like there is hope in the Ford camp...
Source: Inside Line
Take a nameplate that typically has low resale then add a gas hog V8 and it just gets worse. I can't imagine the poor people trying to trade in Tahoes and Expeditions, must be getting killed.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Not bad at all I must say!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I'd like to buy American, but c'mon guys -- benchmark Avalon and Azera, not your own previous model or the Impala.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
That is what happens when you have no development $$$ because you put all your eggs into trucks and SUVs before the days of $3.50 gas. IMO the last thing they need is a G8 clone (heck I don't think Pontiac needs it either). Improve on what you already have in the Taurus and try to create a car people want not something they think is a deal because they bought it 2K under invoice.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
As far as Ford is concerned, they are unfortunately largely controlled by bean counters and seem destined to take a position as a second (or third) tier car manufacturer - if they survive. Read somewhere that they now have such a large debt load that they will not be able to service that debt out of all these profits they don't make - one of the reasons for the 'junk' bond status.
This (Ford's future) would have to have some influence on any decision I might make to spend $20k+ on anything Ford makes regardless of how good it may or may not be. Chrysler seems to be a bit closer to 'Armageddon' but GM seems to making an effort at righting the ship. OR they may just end up as a truck manufacturers, which might be just what they need to do - heaven knows that an awful lot of very high profit PUs are sold, despite those ridiculous discounts etc. that they are sold at right now.
And although the Taurus is priced as a viable alternative to things like Impalas/Azeras/Chargers , you are absolutely right - many times the 'best deal' out there has little to do with discounts or even initial cost- something that applies to a lot more than just cars.
In my opinion, the MBA's (of which I am one, sorry to say) have taken over the Big 3 in the USA. Their inability to look at the long-term is the main thing that has hurt them in the past, as well as now. They appear to be so focused on the present quartily profit picture (as, I might add, many US companies do as well) that they lose sight of the big picture.
That is one reason that you see them introduce cars at the strangest times. For example, the introduction of high performance gas eating vehicles just at the time gas prices are increasing.
Chrysler is by far the best example, hiring Nardelli from Home Depot fame...What were they thinking??? Exactly what auto manufacturing experience does he bring to the table?
Remember Henry Ford II??? "Small cars mean small profits!"...And GM seems to me to have a total disconnect between its design/marketing arm and its manufacturing division...a great example is no stand-alone NAV system in the Malibu, but competing against everyone else in that segment that has it as an offering. I'm sorry, but On-Star navigational aid isn't the same...
I think you might be right...I don't see the US auto industry surviving in its current form. I don't know what it will develope into, maybe trucks, maybe consolidation/mergering.
It will be interesting to watch TATA Motors and see how it handles Jaguar...maybe that will give us a clue.
Thinking outside the lines, I see Mercedes is about to give up on Maybach. Wonder if they'd sell the name to Hyundai for a nickel?
" . . . that Hyundai didn't come through and buy Jaguar."
That proves Hyundai does think properly at times!
Can you imagine what it would be like to try and get a Hyundai-Jag fixed
at the dealership with all the problems they might have? :lemon:
Aren't they all? Its just a shame, they have no money to make better cars. I think Ford had the right idea with the Fusion and Taurus.. but obviously the public didn't because its rebate central with both of them.
why then do I even want anything more especially when that alternative is going to cost me more than a few mpgs
I couldn't agree more!
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve