Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2 · December 2006

Corporate profits from designing, making and selling cars go back to the country where the company is based. For foreign car companies, that is somewhere other than the U.S. Get it?
I sure hope that at least some of them do, they deserve it, but I guess what you fail to grasp is that for whatever corporate profits do make it back to Japan (Toyota Motor USA (and Nissan and Honda etc.) are American (taxpaying) corporations BTW) - it is a drop in the bucket compared to the dollars contributed just by building things like new plants and providing all those new jobs to begin with.
Put yourself in Hyundai's shoes(or Toyotas/Nissans/Hondas) - would you even consider hiring some of these ex-Ford employees? Probably not if you had any sense, this is a guy that is used to telling his boss (thru his union) what he is willing to do and how fast - the last thing any employer should want. The Detroit 3s problems certainly have a lot to do with subpar non-competitive products , and agreeing to some really nasty controlling labor contracts several years ago when those companies were in some sort of SUV/low gas price euphoria. Their own fault, of course, and a serious misjudgement which will probably result in the world's first Chinese Buick, if GM/Ford (in particular) can hold on that long.

louiswei · December 2006

Have you driven a car that has bench seats? It feels very roomy and comfortable.

Yes, they have no support whatsoever and look awful. Also, I prefer (actually I demand) floor mounted shifter instead of wheel column mounted one.

louiswei · December 2006

Here you go...Chinese Buick LaCrosse. Enjoy...

allmet33 · December 2006

Looks like a Mercury Montego on the outside. I do like the pop up rear DVD monitor though. I had an idea to do something like that for my Azera, but I scrapped it.

pat · December 2006

Capt, please read my post just above yours.

wamba2000 · December 2006

Xtec, I have driven the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger both for over 400 miles. I am 6'6" and fit and drive the Azera with extreme comfort....something I can not say for the DC cars (and I currently own a Dodge truck and my past 4 cars were from DC.) In the interest of style, the rooflines were lowered and the roof extended downward on the sides. It has made ingress/egress more difficult for those of us that are tall and for my wife who has neck problems.

The Azera meets the "large" car criteria we had, which is ride, comfort and performance.

If all you want to buy are DC cars, that is your choice, I've had good experiences with them in the past. But, don't knock the Azera; it just met our needs better for this purchase.

batista · December 2006

The Chinese version looks way better than the North American Lacrosse.
Do you know what engine choices they have?

plekto · December 2006

It's basically a slightly reworked Lucerne with a LaCrosse name on it. Very nice car from what I've read.

Oh - about the Towncar - yeah, in a rental, at 90mph, it's going to be a bit loose. DUH. Otoh, the model I suggested had the improved suspension and it makes a dramatic difference, simmilar to how the suspension in the older Buicks was - you had to buy the touring suspension if you wanted it to even remotely not drive like a boat. Rental companies? They buy the base model with nothing on it other than maybe leather and it drives as expected.

Still... 17K for a base model? It's a lot of car for the money compared to most everything else.(of course, the 6-8K in rebates helps a great deal). I know many people who would give it a second look compared to GM's and Ford's other offerings in the 17-25K range.

captain2 · December 2006

My point is its not American well if you are going to jump all over something (the Azera) genuinely better than any Charger could dream of being - then maybe you ought to consider that that Charger is also not American - try Canadian with a healthy dose of German design/engineering. The V8 versions of the 300 and Charger have received, of course, that recognized symbol of greatness, the CR black circle and furthermore are noted to have the most overstated FE ratings in the industry. Obviously, a superior car. :lemon:

batista · December 2006

(the Azera) genuinely better than any Charger could dream of being

You crossed the line el capitain. That is your opinion.
If you had said your beloved Avalon is better than the Charger then I would believe it since you don't even own an Azera.

noted to have the most overstated FE ratings in the industry

Where do you get this information? Care to share?

joe97 · December 2006

I have seen and driven the Shanghai-Buick Lacrosse, it is worlds better than what we get here in NA.

joe97 · December 2006

I believe two engines are offered:

2.4L I4 (LE5) - 170 hp / 170 ft-lb tq
3.0L V6 (LW9) - 170 hp / 185 ft-lb tq

The 2.4 I4 is the ecotech but I don't know what the ratings are over there in China (the 170hp is the NA rating). The 3.0L V6 is for Chinese spec applications only.

captain2 · December 2006

You are certainly right about the opinion part, senor bastista, but an opinion based on shopping and test driving the car - really a 300, and those bad reliability ratings and FE ratings courtesy of CR
The reference to the FE ratings comes from an article in CR several months ago that talked about the new revisions in the EPA mpg tests to make them more realistic and then, went on to do before and afters on many cars. The most overated actually turned out to be the hybrids, the top of the list for strictly gassers, the 300 V8. Something to the tune of a 40% reduction in real world FE and 12 mpg city if I remember right. That's a lot of gas especially when it's of the premium variety. IMO, and again based on driving the car, the best engine is the 3.5 anyway. If I dig thru my old issues of CR I may be able to find the article.
The Azera is also a fine driving car, surprised the heck out of me, with a much improved powertain and a quantum leap for Hyundai, and much more of a competitor to an Avalon than a 300/Charger could ever be and following along with some of the comments I've read here recently a car with better fit and finish, much more standard amenties, more comfortable, and a killer price tag . I doubt very seriously that the 300/Charger sparks much discussion in the Toyota board rooms, but am relatively confident that the Azera and Sonata do - as they should.

captain2 · December 2006

170 HP, that would be particularily deficient in a 2 ton car don't you think. A Buick, from what I understand is THE brand of car to own over there, it may not be for long.

joe97 · December 2006

Yeah, there is a large following there, young people too

joe131 · December 2006

I guess there's no place in China worth getting to in a hurry.

captain2 · December 2006

I can see it now, rebadged Lucernes with 4 cylinder engines and nice chrome coke can exhaust tips and some 35 series tires on 19" chrome wheels to complete the effect - what do you suppose they would call these - 'barge' rockets?

batista · December 2006

The Azera is also a fine driving car, surprised the heck out of me, with a much improved powertain and a quantum leap for Hyundai, and much more of a competitor to an Avalon than a 300/Charger could ever be and following along with some of the comments I've read here recently a car with better fit and finish, much more standard amenties, more comfortable, and a killer price tag

Then explain to me why the 300 has won the 10 best car award from Car and Driver for 3 straight years in the large car segment?
This is coming from a car magazine that usually hates American Branded cars.
I don't see the Avalon or the Azera? They must not be good enough but that doesn't matter as long as "el Capitain" et al love it. Actually there is no Toyota products in the segment.

Have a read if you don't believe me http://www.caranddriver.com/bestcars/12060/2007-chrysler-300.html

joe97 · December 2006

Azera - let's see: AutoPacific, JD Power, AJAC (Canadian Car of the Year)

Instead of dismissing Avalon/Azera because they didn't make it into Car & Crap, I'd suggest a test drive to see why these are up to par with competition, if not better.

Note: my dislike for C&D has no bearing on evaluation of vehicles discussed here

batista · December 2006

What is AutoPacific, never heard of it.
JD Power-well if you believe them then you should being driving a Buick because they have been at the top of their list in reliability.
Who reads or listens to Canadian garbage?
Car and Driver is the most popular car magazine and second would be Road and Track not the list you gave me.
I rest my case.

smith1 · December 2006

Then explain to me why the 300 has won the 10 best car award from Car and Driver for 3 straight years in the large car segment?

Because C&D scoring is biased heavily towards 9/10ths handling (where the 300 admittedly excels due to RWD) and straight line acceleration, where the Hemi versions excel.

Some of us feel the "best car" for us is a well-balanced vehicle that offers not only good handling and acceleration but also excellent ride comfort, fit and finish, fuel economy and visibility. We feel that the Azera and Avalon trump the 300 in these aspects and hence are, overall, better cars.

Different strokes for different folks.

joe131 · December 2006

Car & Driver says, "..the (Chrysler) 300 remains the best big mainstream sedan on the market."

Did anyone else smell the qualifier here as you read it? I wonder which large cars the editors eliminated as being not "mainstream", and what their definition of "big" is.

Hmmmmmmm...?

batista · December 2006

Your assessment is fair.
I never said the Avalon or Azera are lousy cars but I feel the 300/Charger are better than the crowd of FWD cars out there. Chrysler has given customers RWD at a great price something that GM and Ford haven't been able to do.
Actually neither has Toyota or Honda.
You have to buy an IS350 if you want RWD.
You can't include the archaic Grand Marquis (Plekto isn't going to like this) even if it has the so called sport suspension.

imidazol97 · December 2006

Jackpot. Finally someone who has some history concept and not anecdotes.

pat · December 2006

Nevertheless, our subject here is the cars, not what the manufacturers may or may not have been avoiding.

I appreciate your cooperation in getting back on topic.

tjc78 · December 2006

I wouldn't say that Chrysler has given us RWD. More accurately is that Mercedes gave it to us from the parts bin. The 300 borrows heavily from Mercedes sedans' suspensions. No doubt the car mags love it, because Mercedes and BMW can do no wrong. If Mercedes and Chrysler weren't united there would be no 300/Charger They would have simply updated the LH sedans, which I thought looked better anyway.

gamleged · December 2006

When staking your decision on a car mag's decision, you really, really DO need to watch those subjective editorial qualifiers... "big"... "mainstream" indeed!...

smith1 · December 2006

The 300 was a very gutsy move for DC, and it paid off....its sales certainly indicate a lot of people have bought into its looks and the RWD philosophy. I rented one on a vacation trip and enjoyed driving it, but found the interior uninspiring, the fuel economy mediocre, and the visibility terrible. I'm 6'5" and had to crane my neck towards the windshield at every intersection to see overhead stoplights.

quietpro · December 2006

C & D and R & T (owned by the same company last I heard) as well as Motor Trend and the other performance-based reviewers will give you ratings based on just that, the cars' performance. That includes the obvious acceleration/handling/etc. as well as interior fit/finish/ergonomics. They do follow-up with long term reports on a select few but otherwise, their ratings are based on a vehicle performing as it was designed, assuming everything is working as intended.

Consumer Reports and the others are more concerned with value and reliability of a vehicle and attempt to give ratings that will more closely reflect what the average consumer will experience.

I don't give any of them my full confidence, ESPECIALLY CR. I've driven many solid black circles and never had a major issue (knock on wood). Then again, maybe I'm better than the average American with my care and maintenance.

IMO, Popular Mechanics gives the most objective reviews although they're pretty limited in the vehicles they evaluate. Nothing compares to owner feedback, though, which is why I keep coming here.

smith1 · December 2006

I agree, nothing compares to owner feedback, which is why CR's reliability ratings are the best in the industry. They are based on responses from reader surveys about their long-term experiences with their vehicles. They do not give a rating for a vehicle if they don't have enough data to give the rating statistical credibility.

Owner feedback in forums such as this is a great source of information, but you can't use it to derive valid statistical inferences regarding the relative reliability of a particular model.

The fact that you have owned problem-free examples of vehicles that got black circles in CR ratings (or conversely, the fact that some people have had serious problems with vehicles that had nothing but red circles) does not mean the CR ratings are not valid. It merely reflects the fact that they are averages, and there is a wide range of individual experiences.

It's all relative, and since general reliability of all vehicles (except, arguably, the German makes) has improved in recent years, black circles don't mean CERTAIN trouble. But they DO mean a higher chance of trouble than red circles.

bsparks294 · December 2006

Any reviews must be taken with a grain of salt. Advertising dollars certainly influence many mags.

As far a rear wheel drive vehicles; we had the giant snowstorm here in Denver and the gentleman who reviews cars in our local newspaper had two elite vehicles stuck at his house-a Lexus and a BMW-both rear drive.

The 300 is a fine car but not in snowy places and not for people who cannot bend over to squeeze into the car.

I think reliability is one of the most important aspects of a car. What a problem if it is always in the shop.

Have a great New Year.

Brad

barnstormer64 · December 2006

I don't give any of them my full confidence, ESPECIALLY CR. I've driven many solid black circles and never had a major issue (knock on wood). Then again, maybe I'm better than the average American with my care and maintenance.

That's been my theory for quite some time. Just how *does* CR control for this clearly important item? (Hint: they don't, and can't).

It makes sense to me that (on average), those who pay MORE for their vehicles (read, Japanese brands) are more likely to take better care of their vehicles (read money), than those who choose lower-priced vehicles (read, American brands).

smith1 · December 2006

The 300 is also available with all wheel drive, so snowy conditions are not really a reason not to buy one.

barnstormer64 · December 2006

agree, nothing compares to owner feedback, which is why CR's reliability ratings are the best in the industry. They are based on responses from reader surveys

I have to disagree. These are hardly scientific surveys. I, for one, never fill out the surveys. And there's no way to know the motives of those who do.

One also needs to bear in mind how SMALL the differences can be these days that separate the good from the not-so-good. The scales for CR aren't constant with time: they change. Today's mediocre car may easily be MUCH better than a good car from 10 or 20 years ago.

barnstormer64 · December 2006

I think reliability is one of the most important aspects of a car. What a problem if it is always in the shop.

And I've had three Tauri, and none of them spent any significant time in the shop.

Again, look at the SMALL differences between the best cars and the mediocre ones. Sometimes it's as little as 1.3 defects per car and 1.0 defects per car.

imidazol97 · December 2006

>. They do not give a rating for a vehicle if they don't have enough data to give the rating statistical credibility.

IIRC they rated the Ridgeline as soon as it came out-no data. Of course the same time they were refusing to rate the Malibu even though it was based more on a previous model than was the Ridgeline--which had been their excuse for predicting the Ridgeline would be a wonderful (Honda) vehicle.

Similarly for the Avalon. I do recall seeing a drop the rating at the bottom of a page on a library copy of the mag that I picked up for batteries or cameras or something. But they didn't hesitate to rate it as a wonderful (Toyota) model before data had accumulated. Oddly some people tell me it was an all new car sharing not one part with another Camry similar product... so CR couldn't use the past results on similar models excuse for their preference.

How many reports for 1998 Buick leSabres did CR use for their info? How many surveys of longterm owners did CR use for their 500 evaluations? Shorterm owners?

Lack of info isn't there.

tenpin288 · December 2006

These are hardly scientific surveys. I, for one, never fill out the surveys. And there's no way to know the motives of those who do

I was asked to fill out a CR survey last year and I was less than thrilled by their methodology. While they do break it down to about 14 or so categories for the problem/reliabilty survey, they only way you can answer is either yes or no regarding problems. To illustrate how that can skew ratings, the way they categorize gives the same weight to a minor engine ping or a failed distributor or engine sensor in the same category. And the categories are vague enough to allow the same problem to be reported in two or more categories, (ie, fuel system, engine minor, engine major) and cause some questionable results.

My take in all this is don't rely on any one single source for car ratings and reviews. And even though the samples may be anecdotal, these and other forums give one real world experiences from the forum users that can supplement the media ratings and reports.

Another tidbit about the CR report: In the instructions they point out that the problems to be considered are ones that you considered SERIOUS because of cost, failure, safety or downtime. There are no directions that define what SERIOUS is and this can allow unnecessary emotions and bias into the equation. Many other reliabilty reports I have seen or worked with in the past define the parameters such as a day in the shop, more than a day, time out of service, etc.

smith1 · December 2006

I have to disagree. These are hardly scientific surveys. I, for one, never fill out the surveys. And there's no way to know the motives of those who do.

You can't make anyone participate in any survey, and you can never know the true motives of any survey participant.

So, by this reasoning, I guess you think all survey-based studies are meaningless...market research, focus groups, political polling, etc.?

OK,whatever.

smith1 · December 2006

CR has professional statisticians on staff and has been doing these surveys for years. Do you really think they haven't considered the methodological issues you raised?

I agree, take all available information into account when evaluating a car.

tenpin288 · December 2006

Do you really think they haven't considered the methodological issues you raised?

I am sure they have taken those into account, but having filled one out, it seem to me that they have created a short, condensed survey that would be more effective if it allowed for more detail to be included. For a topic that so many rely on to be reduced to approx. 14 yes/no questions causes me to rely less on that survey than I used to. If they gave a responder more choices and flexibility in answering/responding, I would give it more credence.

imidazol97 · December 2006

>survey-based studies are meaningless...market research, focus groups, political polling, etc.?

Perhaps you noticed that CR's survey is allegedly mailed to subscribers only and then only those who choose fill it out--whatever their motive or lack of motive about the car they may or may not even own!

Market research will use a telephone survey of randomly selected phone numbers so that they get a truly random survey. They also collect some data qualifying those who do answer the phone to adjust their survey results. Similarly for political polling; however the people paying for the poll often misuse or misrepresent the results. It's all in the group of questions that being asked in both political and nonpolitical surveys.

I received a phone poll about local news anchors and by the repetitive spiraling type of questions, I believed it would give them good info about the one station's evening news characters.

CR's poll method is called convenience polling in things I've read. It's the same as standing in front of a grocery store in one part of town and asking those entering questions about something--if they choose to talk to you (I wouldn't). I did hit a convenience poll inside Lowes several years back but it clearly was for their benefit; I talked to them.

guest · December 2006

I just took my Charger on a hour trip on differant types of road conditions,and its the best riding car I ever owned,thanks to the Mercedes platform,This car and the 300 ride would out do any Azera or car on this board.They still allowing the Azera on this board,thats suprising seeing that its a mid-size.

nimimi · December 2006

You must have been looking at some other EPA site, not the US EPA. On this emissions listing, the Azera is clearly identified as "large car." http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/all_alpha_06.txt
Same thing on the mileage listings where "large cars" are defined as having 120 cu. ft. or more of passenger and cargo volume.

tjc78 · December 2006

"This car and the 300 ride would out do any Azera or car on this board"

Have you driven them all? There are some fine riding cars here. I have driven every vehicle in this discussion except the Amanti, (Charger technically, but the same as a 300) and must disagree with you. All have different characteristics. For example, the Lucerne has the plushest softest ride, the Maxima one of the firmest. IMO the Avalon and the Azera have the best combo of smoothness and handling.

shipo · December 2006

"It even has a better balance then the 300,the Charger is 4 in. longer then the 300.Don't believe me look it up."

Really? Per http://autos.msn.com the 300C is 196.8" and the Charger is 197.7", making a difference of 0.9".

barnstormer64 · December 2006

So, by this reasoning, I guess you think all survey-based studies are meaningless...market research, focus groups, political polling, etc.?

All surveys are flawed to one degree or another. But the CR survey is one of the poorest I've ever seen.

chilliwack · December 2006

The Azera is very roomy inside, but does not appear large on the outside. The Azera provides for good visibility as well and plenty of rear headroom. I drove the Charger when car shopping and while I liked the car, the roof in the rear slopes down to give a cramped feel and the hood goes forever...I guess you could get used to that. I like the fact that the Azera center console allows my right knee some room and does not constrict leg movement. The car is very good looking, but has been criticized for the rear bulges over the rear wheels. Guess what? That's why the trunk is so massive. Good design destined to only get better. :shades:

shipo · December 2006

"I don't know where you get your specs from,try going to the Dodge website and youll see the Charger is 200.1 in."

My bad, I accidentally wrote down the number from the Magnum (I had all three of the siblings up at the same time).

"You are giving out to much false information here and should look up the facts before you put down something."

Ummm, your attitude is most unbecoming and does nothing to engender camaraderie.

Best Regards,
Shipo

tinydog1 · December 2006

I test drove the 300, Ford 500, Avalon and Azera. The 300 felt underpowered with the 3.5 V-6 and made me feel like I was riding in a plastic easter egg. Too much low quality plastic and dismal fit and finish. The 500 way underpowered and did not like the feel of the CVT. The Avalon had a rattle and some hesitation from a stop. The Azera was flawless in every way, providing a smooth and extremely quiet ride, plenty of power and tons of features for the price. I chose an Azera Limited Ulimate. The best $27k I have ever spent. Have owned it for over a year and still flawless. I can't say that for my friend with a 300 Hemi and he paid $40k for his. I usually pick him up at the Chrysler dealership in my Azera. At least Hyundai relies on itself for engineering and not having to borrow old MB platforms for their cars. Has everyone forgotten that Hyundai ranks higher than MB in initial quality? And yes the Azera IS classified as a large car. Cars are rated by interior volume not wheelbase or overall length. I added 4in of length to my 07 SantaFe by adding the OEM bumper guard.

chilliwack · December 2006

This is the Azera groups and discussions board after all. You are sounding like a Dodge homer. I failed to mention how poorly designed I thought the Charger interior was with all the cheap plastic. I think you are splitting hairs over whether the Azera is a large car or not. Have you ever sat in one? If you had, you probably would be driving one.

Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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