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Toyota Highlander Hybrid Driving Tips & Tricks

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Don't forget that for lowering emissions the catalytic converter must be kept in the range of 800C. The only way to do that is by burning gasoline. Also if you're using the climate control for heating the cabin the engine must run to heat the coolant. And if you have seat heaters then those will ZAP a lot of hybrid battery power.

    Also don't forget that unless you turn it off manually the automatic climate control will still run the A/C even in heating mode, even more ZAPPING, absolutely NEEDLESS in this case, of battery power.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hi Gaz,

    Please keep us posted on the heater. I am seriously considering the same but will wait for your results.

    Calvin.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Good point on the A/C AUTO, we forgot about that many times and it ran quietly in the background wasting gas.

    With temp hovering around 37-42 when we drive, the ICE stays on and on regardless of whether we run just the hot air or just seat heating or nothing. I experimented one morning with no heating whatsoever when it was 32-F outside, the ICE just ran and ran. In the summer, over the same road, it would run 100% electric.

    Still, it yields 26-MPG for now. Our 4x4 V8 Chevy workhorse truck is only getting 9-11 MPG right now. I wish there is a hybrid version.
  • gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    Well, interim results are that it helps but, as some have mentioned, apparently the CC has to get much hotter than a heater can get it (800degrees . . . really?).

    So, I can get a start like in the summer. But we need more than that.

    The real solution would be to trick the thermostat instead of wasting energy heating it at all. It should only heat when the engine is on AND NEEDED.

    So, I think we need to work on the thermostat more than the heat.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Yes, 800 Centgrade, surprised me too. Apparently it will work at some minor level as low as 350C, with 800 C being the most optimal.
  • day9day9 Member Posts: 57
    i feel hy vechicle won't save your gas on highway. They may even use more gas because of the additional weight from battery and electric motors. But guess what car gets the worst gas milage? "A car sit there idling", right? It gets 0 mpg. So hybrid vechicle should be more economical in stop and go traffic which maybe common for all major cities because gasoline motor does not need to run all the time. As a result, it reduces pollutions and good for environment.

    In my opinion, hybrid vechicles are wonderful technology. But just don't expect it to save your gas in all situations. If you don't do a lot of stop and go, i don't see why you need a hybrid.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    If you don't do a lot of stop and go, i don't see why you need a hybrid.

    Wrong, this is outdated understanding of currently available hybrid technology. And this is also confusing electric-vehicle with gas-electric vehicle. I used to think exactly the same way until first-hand experience living with our HH.

    The HH is designed so that the electric motors come on frequently to augment the gas engine regardless of streets or highways. This saves gas. Our HH actually runs on full electric on freeway whenever it encounters a downslope patch. Specifically, stretches of HWY 101 south of San Jose, stretches of HWY 85 between HWY 101 N and HWY 101 S. No gas-engine vehicle shuts off engines while driving over these stretches.

    First-hand experience is everything when dealing with modern gas-electric hybrid technology. The proof is in our constant 28-MPG number all through this summer driving freeways, streets, dirt roads.

    We are down to 24.5 no due to driving much more in cold weather in the high country.

  • day9day9 Member Posts: 57
    So you were saying that when the gas motor is engaged does not only depends on speed but also depends on how much power you need. Even at hwy speed, if you don't need extra power like you were doing downslope, the engine will shut down. Right? Thank you for sharing your experience. I used to think whenever speed is higher than 40 mph, gas motor will engage. But i am wondering if the frequent on/off will have any bad effects on motor's life? BTW, those mpg are really good.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hi day,
    Two corrections to my post.

    First, the behavior I described is only valid when the HH is under "Cruise Control". Without "Cruise Control", the ICE is always providing power to my foot. The drive-computer does a good job of utilizing the electric motors.

    Second, I do not know if the ICE shuts down completely at freeway speed. When I claimed 100% electric it is because the "Bar-Graph Indicator" and the NAV Screen display would show "99.9 MPG". This is the HH's way of saying only the batteries are working and the ICE is either OFF or not doing work. The Energy Flow diagram will show just the batteries sending power to all 4 wheels or 2 front wheels. The ICE indicator shows no activity. It may not shut off, it may just be "idling".

    The electric motor is always cycling on and off to boost the car when in Cruise.

    You are likely right in saying the ICE stays On >40-MPH. Our HH is able to drive on full-electric at 40-MPH but never >40-MPH. An owner here reported he/she was able to go 45-MPH on full electric.

    I am also concerned about the engine shutting on-off so often in street driving. Let's hope it won't die at 10K miles.
  • day9day9 Member Posts: 57
    i see. It sounds like a pretty complicated system. Maybe that is why only the company who make the most reliable cars to offer them.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Hi, cdptrap.

    Is your HH the Ltd w/ Nav? Does it have a screen to show the 'cartoon' graphic like the Prius? If not you may not be aware that everytime you lift your foot off the pedal to cruise or decelerate the ICE shuts down. It depends on road conditions of course put the direct input to the ICE is still your foot. Press and it goes and let up and it shuts off. This is the basis of the Pulse and Glide method of gaining ultra-high mpg ratings. Actually when your HH reads '99.9 MPG' it doesnt indicate battery only it means you are in glide mode. Nothing is driving the vehicle you are coasting/decelerating as you would on a bicycle. However if you 'feather the pedal' you can engage the battery/electric motor just to drive the front wheels.

    There are hybrids out there for 10 yrs now ( 6 yrs now in the US ) that have 50-80000 miles put on them annually. Nothing reported yet about constant on/off.
  • gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    The engine cuts off many times at hwy speed. No doubt. If you see 99.99mpg the engine's not even idling.

    The speed has nothing to do with when the engine or motors come on. I can go 90 with electric motor . . . if there's no need to push the car and it's flat or a slight decline.

    You can go up a hill at 5miles an hour and the engine will come on.

    In both cases, it's based on the work that needs to be done, not the speed.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Sorry, I often see 99.9 MPg on my 2001 AWD RX300 display going down a long slope.
  • gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    Really? How can that be?

    When I go down a long slope and I can see (and feel the engine running) the best I'll see is 60s (one time 70s).

    Everytime, I've seen 99.99 it's corresponded to no engine running.

    You must have a prototype hybrid they let out of the factory.

    :-)
  • landdriverlanddriver Member Posts: 607
    You must have a prototype hybrid they let out of the factory. :)

    Toyota must have released a bunch of them; my '01 HL shows 100.0 MPG on slopes (a 0.1 MPG improvement over the RX no less)!!

    (Your ICE must have been recharging the tractions when you were going down hill...)
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hi kdhs,
    Yes, we do have a Ltd, 4WDi. Thanks for the tip about the engine actually completely shuts off whenever I am decelerating or foot-off-pedal; Wow!

    I understand Toyota builds good quality products (knock on wood) but may be it is time for us to grab an extended warranty just in case :-).
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Thanks Gaz about the 99.9 tip.

    I have to agree with you and Khds that it must be based on work done rather than speed. We have coasted down various slopes at various speed and the 99.9 thing shows up whenever it is steep enough.

    Where we drive, our terrain just won't let us drive on all electric past 40-MPH. Too many subtle uphill, I believe.
  • ser17ser17 Member Posts: 5
    Just joined the Forum because of this topic. I have a 2006 HH 4wdI with 2000 miles, bought in April. The first five tankfuls averaged 28 mpg. Now that the temp is 30 and lower, and I am doing 3 mile trips, the mpg = 21. It is also noticeable that the gas engine comes on immediately no matter how lightly I tread on the pedal from the start, whereas in warmer weather the elec motor would easily go up to 25 mph on the same stretch of road w/o engaging the gas engine.
    You know, for my 10 minute, 3 mile trip at 30 mph I would really like to use just the elec motor. Is this possible? I understand Priuses in Japan have a switch that can shut off the gas engine. Comments?
  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    To keep the catalytic converters heated for the low emissions the ICE (internal combustion engine) runs much longer on the HH and 400h in cold weather. All of us experience decreased mpg. The other reason ICE is running is for heat in the cabin. To use the electric motors only on a three mile trip would challenge the batteries more than toyota would like. For battery longevity in these vehicles toyota does not let the battery cycle to a low discharged state so it is not possible to use electric only for three miles. The HH and 400h were built with power more in mind than fuel economy. Also gasoline is blended differently in winter and that lowers mpg.
  • gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    Just drove to Philly with some disappointing numbers, especialy in the beginning . . . but I was running late and no PnG.

    More troubling was city driving in the cold and the indicator showing I was on battery and motor but with bad mpg (not 99.99). I could tell the engine was running but not driving the wheels (and not showing it was on). I actualy cut the engine to feel it shudder off.

    what's that about? if it must warm the CC, at least save the battery and let the engine do the work.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    I believe temperature is a variable in the ability of the batteries to do work.

    I rememeber seeing a Panasonic spec (June 2005) of batteries for the HH, the curve showed peak "Specific Power" of ~1600W/Kg at 113F. At 30F (~ -1C), its specific power was around 480W/kg, very low. The W translates to HP so to maintain the rated HP, the HH batteries likely must operate at certain temperature range.

    My best guess is the ICE now must also run to "warm" the batteries, in addition to the CC and the oil.
  • gazguzlergazguzler Member Posts: 137
    Maybe we should cover the ventalation on the reat seats in winter?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Gaz,

    The "ICE warming the batteries" bit is a wild guess base on knowing that batteries will warm when charging and discharging. The ICE of our HH charges more often now and the battery pack is frequently full (green) as a result. We have observed the ICE charging even when the pack is clearly all green and full, a very strange behavior unless it is warming the pack. Stranger still, we can go for miles at times with a full green battery pack but the power is all ICE. Cannot even begin to guess what is happening.

    Cannot find any info that talks about what the HH does with the battery pack in very cold climate.

    We are at 23.5 MPG, may be I will try to cover the vents just on one short ride to see what happens. Will do this on a day when it is around 30's-40's.
  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    Do not under any circumstances cover the vents. It is a good way to overheat and cause premature battery failure. The ICE is running more in the winter to deliver cabin heat, and keep the catalytic coverters lit at a high heat. Mileage also suffers due to winter blend gasoline. If you look at the left gauge for electric motor output, it will help you find the sweet spot where you can coast with some electric power at speed without the ICE kicking in. If you keep the needle in the high part of the white area just at the top part of the last black line by the "zero" on the gauge you can cruise on electric only. Any higher than that and you get the ice kicking in.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    May be I should blast the hot air in the cabin instead, that should warm up the pack, no?

    We like the cold so we rarely use cabin heat or seat heater unless it gets below 30F. The ICE runs anyway without any heating inside.

    Winter blend does not explain why it leaves a full charged battery pack unused, and then continues to periodically charge the pack. Strange...

    This car is good at blending ICE+Electric power to get very good mileage, it often goes for long distance with electric and ICE going. Not so in the cold, it seems the battery does very little work except during acceleration, ICE is carrying the load the remainder of the time.

    Well, 23.5 mpg is better than our Chevy V8's 13 average mpg.
  • davis7davis7 Member Posts: 2
    I have a HH 4WDi limited that gets 28 to 30 MPG on the road. It gets 21 to 22 city. Even with the the battery fully charged it will not stay on battery past 15 MPH except on a down hill. The dealer tells me this is normal and the car was designed for performance and not mileage. What is your experience? The car's mileage has been this way since I got it and now has 5000 miles on it and nothing has changed.
  • 650vac650vac Member Posts: 26
    Is your 21-22 MPG true city, i.e. stopping every city block? I can only stay electric up to about 15 MPH under steady acceleration from a stop. I have found that if I let up on the gas just past the speed I want to maintain, let the ICE shut down and then gently press the accelerator, I can go electric up to about 42 MPH. It works really well for 35 MPH and below. Creeping along during rush hour on an interstate at 20 MPH or so can be maintained until the battery discharges. Also, maintaining a little bit of speed makes a big difference compared to starting from a complete stop. I typically hit the brakes to disengage the cruise control or let off the gas whenever I see a light change.
    I live in a flat part of the country so I am sure the topography helps too. I have found it is harder to maintain electric at 45 degrees F or below unless the car is well warmed up.
  • pcritpcrit Member Posts: 27
    650vac, I have the exact same experience as you "...let the ICE shut down and then gently press the accelerator, I can go electric up to about 42 MPH. It works really well for 35 MPH..." I only have 1500 miles on my HH, AWD. It does run the ICE more to warm the vehicle/batteries in colder weather, and my in-town mileage has dropped to 26-27(my wife still gets only 23-24mpg, due to different driving "styles"), while I was getting 28-29 mpg in warmer weather. And I only use the cruise control on flat terrain, otherwise my mpg takes a "hit" when the cruise rapidly accelerates up a small incline.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    why is the highway mileage proving to be so much better than city mileage? One would think that city stop and go driving would result in better fuel economy than for highway travel, as it is, does, in the Prius.

    If the HH and Rxh can get such stellar fuel economy on the highway why cannot the regular HL and RX do the same? How does the hybrid synergy drive system in the HH and RXh aid in reducing highway fuel consumption when it is clearly so detrimental for highway use in the Prius?
  • drinkingfrogdrinkingfrog Member Posts: 8
    WWest, as I alluded above, I've found my city mileage significantly higher than my highway mileage.

    DF
  • discussion1discussion1 Member Posts: 103
    WWest,

    Watching the on-board MPG number, city driving intermediate MPG is always higher than freeway MPG number. On city streets, I can go for up to 2 miles on electric only. Even when the ICE kicks in, the mileage can still reach above 35-mpg easily.

    If I take the measurements at end of a tank however, then it depends on mileage on streets and freeway. The more freeway miles I have, the more the freeway numbers will skew the average.

    A good test would be for someone to just drive city for 1 full tank and report results.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    With some notable exceptions such as the lady poster above many drivers are reporting 25 to 28 mpg combined depending on weather. This combined FE rating is roughly the EPA Hwy rating. As a point of comparison most Prius owners also are reporting combined FE ratings of 48 to 51 mpg which roughly approximates the EPA Hwy rating.

    Given the very specific conditions under which the EPA does its testing the city values are attainable in the Prius, and I believe in the HH as well but it's more difficult to do it. IMO though the specific conditions for City driving as defined by the EPA are not as completely representitive of City driving as are the specific conditions for Hwy driving defined by the EPA.

    City driving has more variations I believe. It can be:
    - stuck in rush hour in Manhattan; in the Tunnel in Boston crawling; waiting to get onto a freeway in LA; etc. crawling forward at 10-20 mph.
    - rolling through a 2 lane suburban road in heavy, but moving, traffic at 30 mph.
    - stop and go, stop light to stop sign to stop sign to stop sign driving in a local neighborhood.

    In the first two situations a driver might be able to attain the EPA City ratings in either a Prius or HH. However in the third situation it would be difficult to attain the EPA rating because of the constant need to accelerate ( use more fuel ) rather than cruise ( use more EV ).

    The EPA Highway rating is actually more consistent with the way most people do drive on highways IMO; i.e. cruising at 55 mph mostly using the ICE with a little assist from the electric motor.

    ICE HL 18 City / 24 Hwy
    HSD HH 31 City / 27 Hwy

    There is not much of a difference between the ICE HL and the HSD HL in HWY ratings. This is consistent with both the Prius and the HH. What is also consistent is that the combined rating approximates the HWY rating.

    Prius 48-51 mpg combined vs 51 Hwy
    HSD HH 25-28 mpg combined vs 27 Hwy

    To answer your specific question I dont think that the mpg rating are off significantly. I believe it's a matter of perception.

    Highway driving
    In an ICE HL one can expect to get 21-23 mpg on the HWY cruising at 55 mph but there is no display to show what is really happening like there is on the HH. On the HH one can expect to get 24-28 mpg. The ratings are consistent because the conditions of driving and the test condition are consistent.

    City driving
    The driving conditions are not as consistent with the testing condition as they are in the Hwy driving/testing case. Again there is no display on an ICE HL so one might not realize that the City driving can average 14 mpg all the way up to 19 mpg depending on the 'type' of city driving done ( see above ).

    Using the best features of the HSD HH however one can obtain values in the 25-30 mpg range if the conditions were the same as the EPA conditions.

    The increases in FE percentages are:
    City.... HSD HH vs ICE.. 25-30 vs 14-19.. or abt 50% improvement
    HWY.. HSD HH vs ICE.. 24-28 vs 21-23.. or abt 19% improvement
    Combined.. HH vs ICE.. 25-28 vs 19-21.. or abt 30% improvement

    The key difference is that one doesnt realize how low the City driving values really are on the ICE HL. There is no display on the ICE HL to show the driver that the present value is 15 mpg for example.

    Comments?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Thanks for the detail analysis.

    Our experience matches your analysis. Regardless of where it happens, frequent stop-and-go with cars following will kill the mileage number.

    When school is in session, we drive about 65% city, 25% country roads, 10% freeways and this normally gets us 28 mpg (warm months) at end of each tank. It is quite close to the 31-mpg Street EPA number.

    In the one lonely experiment when we broke the 30-mpg barrier at end of a full tank, we did not drive the freeway at all. We picked all country roads and city streets that have few stops, no highway overpasses and few cars. It allowed us to cruise and coast. Acceleration from a stop was easy too with no cars following. Unfortunately, these routes were not practical for daily use else we would be boasting 30-mpg at end of every tank.

    So my gut-feel, short of driving just city streets for a full tank, is that our HH, driven in our area, is capable of matching the EPA 31-mpg number for street driving. This is the 4WDi Limited version.

    The 4WDi version has combined EPA mpg of 29 and we were getting 28 in the summer so we are quite happy.
  • lightminerlightminer Member Posts: 14
    If I'm not mistaken the way the Prius people who get 100 MPG or better do it is through what they call 'pulse and glide'. I've not heard much about that on this group, I'd be interested in seeing if some people here can learn to do that and try it and see what effect it has on their MPG with the Highlander. There are tons of sites that explain it, so I won't go into it here especially since I wouldn't be talking from experience. Just google "prius pulse and glide" or something like that.

    Oooh - I just tried that and the first hit was from the web site 'About.com' and at the end of the article the person said they got 47.1 mpg in a Highlander.
  • landdriverlanddriver Member Posts: 607
    I have an ICE HL and may try pulse and glide just to see if it improves my gas mileage. ;)

    Hey kdhspyder:

    Next year with the launch of a new model Highlander ...

    I've read two accounts -- edmunds says the HL will be redesigned in 2007 while Motor Trend says 2008 ("2008 Toyota Highlander: Redesigned on the Avalon platform, growing larger in size to make room for the RAV4").
  • otis1otis1 Member Posts: 142
    I'd also be interested in any news about the upcoming HH. Hopefully we'll hear something concrete before June 30 so I can decide whether to bite the bullet with the current 06 HH or forego the tax credit and wait for the 07/08 HH.

    I'm also curious as to what effect, if any, the new tax credit has had on dealer traffic and HH sales. Last month my local small town dealer had 3 HH sitting on the lot. Last night the same 3 were still there (I figured at least 1 would have been sold)
  • ushermanusherman Member Posts: 3
    So far the tax credit has lesser an impact on the sales of HH than the Prius. I have been following the prices and inventory of a mid-Atlantic "no haggle" Toyota dealer. It still has 40+ HH on its lot, most priced at only $500 above invoice, which is unimaginable just a few weeks ago. This is rather odd.
  • otis1otis1 Member Posts: 142
    Yeah, I've been folllowing that site from time to time as well along with their kenosha dealer. My dealer had 2 prii on the lot last month and of course those are gone. I don't get what's going on with the HH. 4 months ago if you offered a HH buyer a discount of $2600 (tax credit), I bet a lot would have jumped on it. Now there's price breaks in addition to the credit which effectively gives over a $6k discount. I'd make the 8 hour drive to kenosha this weekend if they had colors other than black or white. At this rate, toyota may offer an incentive *gasp* for the HH's.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I sell them and other than the initial surge the one thing that 'afflicts' the HH, and the HAH as well, is that they are linked to a V6 engine.

    Think about it. The power is wonderful and a pleasure to drive. But I have an '04 ICE 3.3L. The driving experience is everything a normal driver needs. For the everyday Toyota, and Honda, driver the power of the HH is way too much IMO. To get this power there is a premium that frankly most Toyota buyers dont want to pay. There is certainly the the benefit of the HH being a much cleaner vehicle and an approximate 30% increase in FE.

    But are these three factors enough for the normal Toyota buyer to spring for $4000 to $5000 extra dollars. It appears not.

    OTOH the HSD +V6 is perfect for the Lexus line where the normal buyer is more likely to pay for these extra benefits over a 3.3L ICE x330.

    IMO therefore the HH should be linked to the 2.4L in order to keep the price in the 'Yota buyer's range and offer V6 power, ~200 hp, with significantly improved FE ratings, say in the mid 30's vs high 20'a.

    If you could get a HH with these characteristics for a price of say $28500 or less then the HH's would move faster.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    There could be many reasons and one could be that the early adapters are just about done.

    While researching the HH early 2005, I rememer reading a car magazine theorizing there would be 2 waves of buyers. The first are those who like new "toys" and will buy the HH for reasons other than gas-saving. The second wave are gas-savers who just want gas savings. The HH will be a tough-sell to the second wave.

    I think the first wave is just about done except for the few who are waiting for good deals. With almost 90% of HH-related articles telling readers the gas saving would never offset the price premium, the gas-savers would do the math and not like the 22 mpg reported by Consumer Report.

    For most people, a $26K Prius that easily gets 45-mpg makes a lot more sense than a $35K-$37K larger car that gets CR-reported mileage. That is likely the comparison most second-waver will make.
  • otis1otis1 Member Posts: 142
    I agree with all your points- especially the lexus/toyota comparison. I guess there's a lot of "I wish toyota did..." kind of thoughts when it comes the HH. While I personally would have liked to have seen a HH that could get 30+ mpg, this one isn't too shabby considering the price discount. is a 50% increase in FE so bad? maybe I'll be a part of that 2nd wave of early adopters looking for a bargain cdtrap mentions.

    This HP game is weird to say the least. the rav4 having the optional 270hp engine seems excessive to me. with this move, I've become very curious to see what direction toyota takes the highlander lineup next year. If the new HH goes more "lexus" and boasts a 300+ HP engine to keep ahead of the rav4, then I'm going to buy the current 06.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ..curious to see what direction toyota takes the highlander lineup next year.

    My own opinion..

    I think it's pretty certain that the new iteration of the Highlander will be on a larger frame ( Avalon/Sienna? ) in order to compete better with the Pilot on the Odyssey frame. 'Yota is moving to have just one V6 in all it's vehicles. Avalon, RAV, Camry currently followed by the Highlander and Sienna shortly. BTW this is a derivation of the 4.0L V6 in the 4Runner, Tundra, Tacoma and FJ Cruiser.

    So with a larger vehicle ( heavier ) and the V6 already in the RAV I think it's certain that this will be the standard engine in the new Highlander. But it makes sense to me to do away with the V6+HSD in favor of the 2.4L+HSD for V6 power and mid 30's FE.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    My guess is:

    Normal RAV4 continues to get 170-hp.
    Normal Highlander continues to get 220-hp.
    Hi-Perf RAV4 gets optional 3.5L V6 offering 269-hp.
    Hi-Perf Highlander gets optional Gas-Electric HSD System offering 269-271 HP.

    Instead of offering a V8 for the Highlander, the Gas-Electric HSD System is the "option".

    I do not think Toyota will worry too much about Highlander getting significantly more horsepower. The Sequoia and the LandCruiser are good examples. Both use the same V8 with the Sequoia version detuned slightly down to 273-hp versus the Cruiser's 275-hp.

    At least I really hope Toyota is doing this so as to not play the ever-increasing horsepower game.

    Toyota may also offer the HSD system as Gas-Saving option like the 2007 Camry Hybrid. The hybrid Camry gets only 192-hp but also gets 43/37 City/Hwy MPG EPA. The Hi-Perf version of the Camry uses the 3.5L 269-hp V6.

    So for the mid to large family sedan segment, it seems Toyota may offer the HSD as a Gas-Saving option rather than as a Hi-Perf option.

    If Toyota can get the manufacturing process and the cost down, this whole approach makes perfect sense. Instead of the Gas-Electric system as some special offering, it becomes just another "mainstream" engine option that buyers can select.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Toyota may also offer the HSD system as Gas-Saving option like the 2007 Camry Hybrid. The hybrid Camry gets only 192-hp but also gets 43/37 City/Hwy MPG EPA. The Hi-Perf version of the Camry uses the 3.5L 269-hp V6.

    So for the mid to large family sedan segment, it seems Toyota may offer the HSD as a Gas-Saving option rather than as a Hi-Perf option.

    If Toyota can get the manufacturing process and the cost down, this whole approach makes perfect sense. Instead of the Gas-Electric system as some special offering, it becomes just another "mainstream" engine option that buyers can select.

    I agree wholeheartedly. First and foremost the Toyota buyer is interested in economy ( which includes reliability or lack of repair costs and downtime ). Giving the buyer another economical option serves everyone well. Also giving buyers options is a good thing. Let the market decide whether the ICE-only is 'old tech'.
  • ashtoyhybridashtoyhybrid Member Posts: 5
    I haven't posted in a while, but have been following the discussions over the past couple weeks. (Despite being vaccinated, BOTH my kids got chicken pox over the holidays.) I took to heart all the postings about driving techniques to improve the mileage. I looked up the suggested websites and printed information.

    I am happy to report that on my last tank of gas I got 25.22 mpg. I have been trying to implement the "pulse and glide" technique, and using cruise control on my limited highway driving. The tank may have had even better mileage if the last 1/4 tank hadn't been driven by the shop that installed the DVD system. To date, a speaker and the new DVD system were replaced (2300 miles on car).

    May I have a little more help? I can't decide which is better for mileage:

    sticking solely with cruise control on the highway, even when it is only using gas engine
    -or-
    trying to control engine useage myself via pulse and glide technique?

    I can report that I have occasionally used the battery only at 60 mph, and even glided (no gas, no battery) at the same speed.

    The funny/tragic thing is, no one at my dealership (mechanics, salesman, dealership manager, customer relations) has any idea of how to drive a HH (or prius) to maximize gas mileage. Is that not the least a consumer should expect?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    sticking solely with cruise control on the highway, even when it is only using gas engine
    -or-
    trying to control engine useage myself via pulse and glide technique?

    Use your own input as much as possible using the 'p & g method' as often as possible. Using cruise feeds a constant flow of fuel to the engine, even in small amounts, and may deteriorate your values somewhat. I notice 1-2 mpg.

    I can report that I have occasionally used the battery only at 60 mph, and even glided (no gas, no battery) at the same speed.

    This is a huge benefit of the technology.

    The funny/tragic thing is, no one at my dealership (mechanics, salesman, dealership manager, customer relations) has any idea of how to drive a HH (or prius) to maximize gas mileage. Is that not the least a consumer should expect?

    This is a sorry situation but most people there seem clueless and dont drive a hybrid often if at all. At our store most other sales people will refer their new buyers to me for a 15-30 min final drive at time of delivery. And anyone can come back at any time to ask for further guidance. A lot becomes intuitive also. In my initial presentation of the vehicle I refer to the instantaneous fuel gauge as a 'biofeedback device'. Using it will allow the driver to use the best features of the technology.

    PS: One other 'trick' ;) . At the end of your trip after the HH has been heated up and the battery is fully charged, try to coast/cruise through your neighborhood into your driveway. For the last 2 miles of my trip home I slow down from 55 on the highway, turn into my neighborhood where the speed limit is 25 and then keep the lightest touch in the pedal ( 'feather it' ) through the neighborhood and drive in 'stealth mode' at 20 mph for the final mile plus. From the time I slow down on the highway to shutoff I burn zero fuel. The FE gauge is pegged to 99.9 mpg. In the overall scheme it's not a big deal but it's 2 miles of 'free driving' if you will.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    CONGRATULATION! Very happy to see the increase in mileage!

    Regarding cruise or not on freeway, take it out on a quiet early weekend morning to see how the mileage responds to CRUISE and manual method. Pick the one that works best. We have heavy feet so we opt for CRUISE.

    On freeways, when in CRUISE, the HH will use the electric motor to supplement the gas engine whenever possible and this really improves mileage. There is a 6-mi stretch of local freeway where we can get 30-45 MPG at 65-mph.

    On freeways, our experience indicate speed and terrain dictate the mileage. Hilly mountainous terrain will kill the mileage. Higher speed eats up gas, there is no way around it. On interstate, we do 60 when safe or 65 when necessary. On country highway, the 55-MPH limit is perfect for cruising at 45, 50, 55.

    When shuttling kids around town, we look for reasonable alternate routes that have few stops, few turns, few cars and no highway overpasses. This lets us cruise, coast and run on electric much more often.

    Have fun experimenting and learning about this car, it can do a lot for you.
  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    congrats on working on your hybrid skills, in my opinion the cruise works best on the free way when traffic isnt too heavy, the car seems to be integrated best in cruise as far as blending electric with ICE, and it will also coast with no ICE.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "efficiency" gain is via inertial energy recovered during coastdown and/or braking, regenerative braking. That's how/why the Prius gets such STELLAR city mileage vs relatively poor highway mileage.

    A hybrid has absolutely no fuel economy advantage at a constant speed in level terrain. In fact hybrids are at a definite disadvantage in traffic in those situations. It uses the batteries for acceleration "surges" to regain road speed after slowing with/for traffic and then must use the (derated) engine to recharge the batteries.

    I have always suspected that if the batteries could be somehow disconnected when highway cruising our Prius would get substantually better highway fuel economy. Provided we could tolerate the subsequently lower acceleration rate.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Theoretically speaking, I would agree completely agree with your assessment when the HH is driven at high speed over perfectly flat surface. Current design means the ICE will run efficiently to maintain momentum with all electric motors off. But I do not believe this fact can be generalized to real world situations.

    In reality, surfaces are never flat, so there are always rises that will cause momentum loss and thus speed decreases. A gas-engine car will need to rev the engine up and down as necessary to counter the momentum loss in order to maintain speed. The higher and the steeper the rise, or the more momentum depleting bumps, rises and humps, the harder the engine must work, the more fuel it consumes.

    On a down slope, the gas-engine can idle if the slope is steep or it must continue to run at lower RPM just to maintain speed when the slope is not steep enough to maintain momentum.

    I cannot say anything about the Prius but the HH has interesting but positive behaviors when it comes to countering momentum loss. Its batteries are not just for acceleration but are capable of providing a constant output of power to support the ICE.

    On bumps, rise and hilly climbs, the electirc motor comes on to counter momentum loss and maintain speed. The gas engine in the HH either does not change its output or react with only a slight increase in RPM. This definitely saves fuel.

    On steep down slopes where the car can either maintain or gain momentum, the ICE shuts off completely, the battery recharges. There is no fuel consumption.

    On shallower slopes, where the car needs some help to maintain momentum, the electric motor kicks in again to provide the added constant power to maintain speed on a downhill. On occassion, I have seen the electric motor doing all the work at 65-MPH with the ICE shut off. This again saves fuel.

    In these cases, the ICE is able to do more or less a constant amount of work (or no work) even when terrain changes result in momentum-loss and -gain. Constant output makes the ICE efficient, so the electric motors are really helping to reduce fuel consumption and increase FE at highway speed.

    The big surprise for me is how far the HH battries can drive this 2-ton car on electric at a constant speed. I believe this is why the batteries are able to help with FE even on freeways. They are not just for acceleration, they are capable of supporting the ICE for quite a long distance at a constant output.
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