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Honda Civic Hybrid Driving Tips & Tricks
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Comments
As far as which tires, I personally will stay with the OEM tires, the Bridgestone B381. I do mostly city driving in mostly dry Phoenix AZ, so I don't really need anything with snow traction or better hydroplane resistance, etc.
I like the fact that I can "coast" 1/4 to 1/2 a mile into my work parking spot after turning off the main road. And these tires are $65 each at TireRack.com also.
Minimum = 32 psi typically; less risks tire blowout
Maximum = 40 or 45 psi on the tire
If you want maximum MPG, you inflate your tires to the maximum possible. It will give you a harder ride, but also reduce rolling resistance.
troy
But, when trying to decide exactly what PSI you want to run your car at, there are MANY MANY things to think about. It's not a black and white issue.
I did not want to get into all those here, so I advised the previous poster to look around himself....
Minimum = 32 psi typically; less risks tire blowout
Maximum = 40 or 45 psi on the tire
If you want maximum MPG, you inflate your tires to the maximum possible. It will give you a harder ride, but also reduce rolling resistance.
troy
Don't forget that maximum PSI rated for the tire is the absolute maximum. If you inflate your cold tire to the max, and then drive, you will very well exceed the 45 PSI once the tire has warmed up. This can be very close to 60 PSI in Texas heat. Is the $2 saved in gas worth $1000 insurance deductible and jacked rates for three years?
If you dont care about maximizing MPG, it's easy: just use the PSI recommended by your car's maker.
But if you do want to maximize MPG, and you want to find the best compromise for ride comfort, safety, tire wear, heat buildup, road conditions, etc etc, if can be a difficult choice.
Do you have a source for this statement? I believe that the PSI marked on the side is the maximum cold pressure. It would be very difficult for a tire manufacturor to list a maximum "hot" temperature, because they wouldn't know how much heat was going to be generated.
I think the poster was trying to say that the "max inflation" pressure is the Max PSI number on the tire. In other words, "do not inflate this tire higher than 45 PSI" or whatever the number is.
Everyone knows that in a max inflated tire (when cold) the pressure will expand and become much higher after a little while on the road....I think everyone knows that...
I'm hoping he comes back and provides explanation, because he stated that the PSI on the tire represented an "absolute maximum"...
I'm hoping he comes back and provides explanation, because he stated that the PSI on the tire represented an "absolute maximum"...
The pressure on the side wall is the aboslute max, as it was explained to me. Just like some argue that it would be difficult for a tire manufacturer to figure out how hot your tires gets, it is also difficult to figure out how cold your tire gets. Someone in Alaska would have his/her cold tire at -40°F, while someone in Florida has his/her tire at 60°F and think it is cold.
STP (Standard Temperautre and Pressure) is 25°C at 760 mm Hg (or whatever is at the sea level, 1 atm?) No one ever gets that.
If the door jamb on my Civic states to inflate to 32 pSi, and the sidewall reads "42 max psi," it makes sence, as the car and tire manufacturers want to build in some room for expansion before your tires go "Kaboom"
Maxing out your tire inflation is not the best way to gain mpg's IMHO. Optimizing the tire inflation is probably safer that just plainly going to the max.
.
In-correct. The maximum PSI listed on the tire is the *cold* rating, and can handle 60-70 psi when hot.
Many Insight drivers (like me) 50 psi with no adverse effects.
troy
This is old advice, including proper driving in snow, but it is hard to get used to.
I've thought about it quite a bit, but where I am, hills are big, and require some juice. Freeway overpasses, on the other hand... My 1967 Datsun had a hand operated locking throttle. My speed would fall going up hills, rise going down... that might be a better thing overall.
". Unless you live in a very flat terrain, keep the cruise control off. "
Goes hand in hand with the acceleration on hills. Sometimes I leave the cruise on, and find the RPM up around 4500. That might be wasteful on a short incline, but if the incline is long, you need to give it more power to maintain a decent speed.
Maybe the answer would be a cruise control that had a wider range of speed allowed before it tried to correct. It works on household thermostats.
"Don’t nudge ahead at stops " That takes some getting used to. It seems like the drivers ahead of me conspire to leave a gap after my engine has already shut off. I just ignore it now. I'm not going anywhere until the light changes.
I wish the auto-stop light would kill the engine. That way if I did creep, I could auto-stop it again easily.
Being able to creep is an advantage on my Ford Escape Hybrid. I was able to maintain "99.9mpg" for a few miles the other day, stuck in traffic. Then the engine started, and it dropped to 45 pretty quickly.
"Drive like your brakes don’t work" The dealer has already commented on my low brake wear. I drive the HCH like I rode my BMW motorcycle. High corner speed, not much acceleration or braking. It's not a race. I don't need speed between the corners. More likely my speed doesn't vary much between curves and straights on a windy stretch of road.
"Get up off of those soggy, spongy tires! " I couldn't stand the recommended 30psi. I went for 35. At 38,000 miles, I switched to "normal" tires, and I'm running 38psi. Quieter, smoother, stickier. My mileage is off a little, maybe due to the tires, maybe because the new tires allow for higher speeds on the windy roads. Maybe something's wrong with the IMA.
“hidden charging” I think my 2003 HCH does charge with no charge bars showing. I might be near half full, travelling on level ground, and another battery bar appears.
"Find the right amount of gas needed to maintain speed on a flat road. Back off the gas to gain 1-2 bars of the instant MPG gauge. "
I find the instant gauge to be annoying. I really wish the range was 20-60, instead of 0-120.
I don't care if it's below 20. It's only there because I need it, and anything above 60 is coasting. A larger view of the sweet spot would be useful for this sort of tuning.
I'll try watching the bars as an indicator.
Recently, I've tried _very_ hard to stay at 65mph.
It's hard to do around here. "right lane" doesn't do it. Traffic getting on and off the freeway often leaves the right lane too varied in speed, from 45-60. The next lane over works better, but it is sooo easy to stay up with the traffic. a sluggish glob of traffic starts to break up, and suddenly you're at 75.
I have seen 60mpg at 60mph. Usually 50 at 65-70.
I also had 42mpg at 80mph... that was good enough that night.
http://www.rahul.net/dold/clarence/Honda_Mileage.htm
I accelerate from a stop this way.
In casual residential areas, I might hold about 1800 rpm, and let the speed rise at whatever rate it happens.
In rural situations, I hold about 3,000 rpm until I get to cruising speed, and then back off.
I find that this provides adequate acceleration, pulling away from most traffic.
You are Monday - Morning - Quarterbacking an individual with the highest lmpg of any CVT equipped HCH on the planet. I don’t think you have much to offer him in regards to FE techniques although we are all open to new ideas.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
“hidden charging”???
"I really wish the range was 20-60, instead of 0-120. Anything above 60 is coasting.
.
Why does it matter when you accelerate? Seems you'd burn the same amount of gas, either way? In my insight, I've driven up-n-down a lot of mountains, experimenting. I discovered I could climb in 3rd gear at ~40mph, and neutral on the way down, and still get 100 MPG overall.
Yes, Honda cars have a "trickle charge" which is too small to see on the meter.
And 0-60 would not be an adequate scale. I've driven the Civic Hybrid, and I can cruise at 70-75 in lean-burn. You should be able to do the same.
troy
Please keep in mind that I have a CVT, and your 5 speed is likely different.
Your noted Insight FE is fantastic as well.
It is most FE to accelerate while going downhill, as you have the weight of the car and gravity to assist you.
Accelerating uphill is opposite.
For instance, suppose you're at a stop light and see a hill(s) right ahead. The speed limit is 45 or 55 and you have a captive audience behind you.
The light turns green and you accelerate as reasonalby as possible up to the 1st hill, but you're still well below traffic speed at the hill's base.
It's more FE while pulling the hill to keep the speed you have already built and not add any more until you reach the plateou. If you hold the accelerator in place once on the flatter areas gravity isn't as severe and you gain more speed.
I think you were mistaken, as I wasn't the one who posted the 0-60 range on the instant FCD.
If I had my way, I'd increase it to 150 and add lots more segments.
cdold, you must be getting good FE as well.
I'm not sure about the RPM idea.
Many times in my case while trying to accelerate, no Assist=no acceleration while 1 bar of assist=slow gradual acceleration.
With that in mind, if there's no one behind me I'll ride the accelerator with the same precision as a watchmaker to hold 1 bar of Asssit on until up to speed.
==================================================
Thanks Troy. Please keep in mind that I have a CVT, and your 5 speed is likely different.
.
I was driving the CVT civic.
As for hills, I suppose I agree it's best to hold a steady throttle climbing hills, but disagree about accelerating downhill. I usually shift to neutral & let gravity do the work, while the engine idles.
troy
1) Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of regenerative braking/recharging?
2) ICE use less gas when in gear going downhill than in neutral. Force of gravity spins the engine, minimizing fuel consumtion. Idling requires fuel to keep the engine spinning.
I respectfully disagree with both points and agree with Misterme and Electrictroy shift to neutral & let gravity do the work, while the engine idles :
Coasting downhill is a way to save gas!
1) Even in neustral regenerative braking still works. Pushing in the clutch or shifting and automatic to Neutral doesn't disable the brakes. Regenrative brakes are only disabled, in emergency stops, when the full forces of the mechanical/Hydrallic brake is applied.
2) Leaving in gear provides a significant drag on the engine, less the higher the gear, but still a significant drag. You are assuming that spinning the engine in gear with gravity also incorporates fuel-shutoff which isn't necessarily true. If you are really a hyper-miler simple turn-off the engine. Wait a minute isn't that the "auto-stop concept.
The downside is if a emegency arises and you need ICE power to accelerate, there is some delay shifting back in gear and/or starting the engine.
Hondas Rule!,
MidCow
In the manual equipped Honda Hybrid’s, pushing in the clutch or shifting into neutral disables regen braking as IMA is built into the ICE, not the brakes. Best bet is to shift to neutral and let off the clutch with the car running or not to save that manuals synchro’s.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
1) Even in neustral regenerative braking still works. Pushing in the clutch or shifting and automatic to Neutral doesn't disable the brakes. Regenrative brakes are only disabled, in emergency stops, when the full forces of the mechanical/Hydrallic brake is applied.
2) Leaving in gear provides a significant drag on the engine, less the higher the gear, but still a significant drag. You are assuming that spinning the engine in gear with gravity also incorporates fuel-shutoff which isn't necessarily true. If you are really a hyper-miler simple turn-off the engine. Wait a minute isn't that the "auto-stop concept.
The downside is if a emegency arises and you need ICE power to accelerate, there is some delay shifting back in gear and/or starting the engine.
Hondas Rule!,
MidCow
No It won't save you gas.
1) The regenerative braking is via the electric motor/generator which is coupled to the engine before the clutch and transmission. By shifting into neutral, or releasing clutch, you have just disconnected the generator from the wheels.
2) Leaving car in gear while going downhill does not provide drag on the engine, but forces the engine to spin. While the engine spins at higher RPM with the throttle closed the engine computer minimizes the fuel flow, by shortening the injection times to a virtual trickle. This is where the increased fuel economy comes from. Next time going downhill in gear, watch your instanteneous MPG meter, it should go up to 80-120 MPG. It works on BMW's, the MPG meter goes off the scale.
>>> 2) ICE use less gas when in gear going downhill than in neutral. Force of gravity spins the engine, minimizing fuel consumtion. Idling requires fuel to keep the engine spinning.
.
(1) The energy recovered in the form of kinetic energy (speed) is close to 100% conversion. Energy recovered via battery braking is only 20-30%.
(2) Last I checked my MPG gauge, even when idling going downhill, my engine still gets 2300 miles per gallon. The long-term impact on lifetime MPG is minimal.
(3) So bottom line: Shifting to neutral when coasting downhill, thereby converting potential energy to kinetic energy, is a more effective energy-recycling method.
troy
Just my 2 cents here, but I think Honda designed the car to leave the transmission engaged on when going downhill. If it were truly that much superior, they would have disengaged the transmission via computer control.
Yes, this was overlooked, or may have saved manufacturing costs with more parts (Another clutch, etc)
As you're rolling down hill in gear you can add just enough gas for the engine to overcome its internal friction.
If the angle of the hill isn't enough for what you need to do your FCD will move off of 120.
Why?
Because you're feeding it gas, and look at the increased RPM: it is faster than idle speed. You also need to feed gas to stop the IMA from activating coasting charging.
You can overcome this friction by switching to N or depressing the clutch. (Same thing)
Now you're not feeding it any gas at all. It's only idling. And the FCD is pegged.
In gear=feed gas to overcome internal friction & coasting charging.
Out of gear=feed no gas. Gravity is free to propell you.
Not rocket science.
I would like to know you more, you have obviously been able to defeat the conservation of energy law. If one were able to recover 100% of kinetic energy of going down the hill, one would have been able to use this same energy to climb the next hill, and so on. Wow we have perpetual motion I think you should apply for Nobel Prize, people have been trying to build Perpetual motion machine for centuries.
Anyway, my point is by shifting into neutral or disengaging the clutch, you have disconnected the generator from the wheels, and there is no regenerative electricity being produced from gravitation pull, only from the idling engine. The fuel consumtion of an engine forced to spin fast at the crankshaft is lower than engine idling on its own.
(3) So bottom line: Shifting to neutral when coasting downhill, thereby converting potential energy to kinetic energy, is a more effective energy-recycling method
What method do you use to control the speed? I know there is hill in upstate NY on RT17W, that if I were to coast in neutral I would bild up to 80 mph half way down. If you are using brakes to control your speed, you have just wasted that potential energy into heat, rather than useful electricity.
However, this acts as a braking function on the engine and thus the car slowing it down. While the net instantaneous fuel comsumption may be lower as you say, the overall affect is less less mpg.
I don't think ElectricTroy was advocating using any braking at all! Let the speed build up limited only by rolling friction and wind resistance.
In defense of ElectricTroy, while kinectic energy is not 100% it is much closer to 100% (less friction and wind resistance) than regenerative braking, which I think was the intended point.
And yes I was wrong in My thinking as Wayne nicely pointed out that the regenrative braking is dircetly commected to the IMA which is connected to the iCE. So if you push in the clutch and/or shift to neutral you disengane the IMA and its associated regnerative braking.
BTW I think this point has been beaten to death! Don't you.
Have a good weekend!,
MidCow, the manual shift man
P.S.- Gravity sure can make bicycles go fast down hills, now ther's a potential to kinetic conversion!!
PS
The hypermilers should have some good tips on maximizing your mileage.
- If you travel at 65mph on your commute, then you should get very good gas mileage. On my trips where I have done this, I have averaged over 50mpg.
- When I go 70-75mph, my mileage drops to 45-47mpg.
- I have gone on trips with large elevation changes (3-4K feet), and I have sometimes recouped my mileage going downhill, and sometimes not. Same roads. I'm not sure why. Maybe that's why I'm only a mediocre-miler. :-)
If you want to get extreme mileage (some HCH owners average 60mpg), then I say more power too you. If, however, you want to just drive the car and enjoy it, then I've found that the mileage pretty much takes care of itself. My lifetime mileage after 7000 miles is 45mpg and most of that is my short 6-mile commute in city traffic.
Last thought: enjoy! It's a fun car to drive, and as a commuter vehicle, it is hard to beat. And based on my experience, your mileage will probably be roughly 25-30% better than you would have gotten with a comparable Honda Civic non-hybrid, under the same conditions.
The highest MPG on the planet means that some of his ideas are out of the mainstream. And in my area of two lane roads, downright unfriendly.
If I don't have anything to offer to him, should I just grovel in his brilliance?
It doesn't seem like you are open to new ideas, if none are allowed to be offered.
I'm not sure about the RPM idea."
My overall average is 46MPG, with only some concern for gas mileage. I am careful with my starts, and I use cruise control to keep my speed below the high side of traffic, which is often 75mph. I cruise at 65 to get 50mpg.
I think my new Cooper Mastercraft tires have hurt my mileage by 2-3mpg, either directly because they aren't low rolling resistance, or indirectly because I am driving faster on the windy roads.
I use the "steady RPM while accelerating" method because the engine speed seems so load sensitive. Floor it, it goes to 5000. Ease away from the stop, it stays at 1800. It seems as good a guideline as any. I find that a steady 3,000 lags behind some cars right off the line, but I catch them around 35-40, as they probably are sensing their car laboring, and start to back off.
One bar of assist might be a similar guideline.
I think I run three or four. One bar would be too slow for me, pulling out onto a two lane highway from a stop sign.
I don't want anyone else driving my car, especially if they aren't in it. But I also don't want to drive theirs, by forcing them to wait behind me while I try to improve my mileage another few percent.
STEVEDEBT: "Just my 2 cents here, but I think Honda designed the car to leave the transmission engaged on when going downhill. If it were truly that much superior, they would have disengaged the transmission via computer control. "
================================
Well... they were wrong. I get better MPG by coasting in neutral, than if I allow the regen braking to kick on. More energy is recovered via the kinetic energy of the car, than via the chemical energy of the battery. I've experimented with climbing Utah mountains to prove what I say.
Troy
BLUEIEDGOD: "I would like to know more, you have obviously been able to defeat the conservation of energy law. If one were able to recover 100% of kinetic energy of going down the hill, one would have been able to use this same energy to climb the next hill, and so on. Wow we have perpetual motion"
==================================================
Strawman argument. I didn't say 100%. I said "close to 100%". I don't know the actual PE-to-KE conversion efficiency...perhaps 90%. Still much, much higher than the 20-30% recovered via battery.
As for your other questions:
- yes the engine idles, but in the insight that's still equal to ~2000 mpg which is practically nothing
- yes I might hit 80 mph coasting downhill, but if I'm on the interstate, who cares?
troy
Freewheeling, or coasting out-of-gear, can be dangerous, and is in fact against the law in some states. Some drivers may in fact know under what conditions it is OK to do it, but for most drivers, I don't think it's advisable, and it would bring negligible fuel savings. For automatics, and in particular the CVT, one should probably consult with experts on the potential mechanical problems that could result in re-engaging Drive at high rates of speed.
Bird
Yes, driving out of gear can be dangerous, especially at high rates of speed.
That's why I keep it in gear while at high rates of speed.
This morning I had my dealer do my 35K mile oil change and asked him about related mechanical issues.
It seems he had a chuckle, and said there is no issue.
I'm sure that I'll break the law by exceeding the speed limits again today, may even forget to blink once or twice. Might even switch it to N.
MPG gain while in N is not negligible fuel savings, can help it quite a bit.
cdold:
"The highest MPG on the planet means that some of his ideas are out of the mainstream. And in my area of two lane roads, downright unfriendly."
Yes, hypermiling is indeed out of the mainstream.
Mainstream driving would mean paying zero attention to how much fuel my vehicle is consuming.
Part of the hypermiling skill is for it to be transparent to other drivers: to be considerate.
Hypermiling isn't just slow.
And yes, I am always open to new ideas and things to try. That's what it's all about.
Following really close behind big rigs will reduce the wind resistance. Car and driver drove the insight behind a big truck a few years back, they achieved something on the scale of 80 mpg drivig from Detroit to New York.
"If you are in bumper to bumper traffic and rolling a long at 5mph, heck yeah, coast all you want, it ain't gonna break anything. You just don't want to be in a habit of rolling at 70mph in neutral down that hill when the deer jumps out and the car on the right swerves into your lane.
It is illegal in CA too.
Coasting Prohibited
21710. The driver of a motor vehicle when traveling on down grade upon any highway shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21710.htm
Note that is it illegal only on highways.
I'm sure cities have laws too.
The is no way it is ok to neutral coast in San Francisco."
Don't the brakes still work in neutral? Yes. So why not just use them?
troy
Hypermiling isn't just slow."
Hypermiling involves some peculiar driving habits. Accelerating downhill and letting speed fall to 40MPH going uphill is rude.
I get 46 overall, and exceed 50mpg on road trips by driving sensibly. I almost always have cruise control on.
"Part of the hypermiling skill is for it to be transparent to other drivers: to be considerate"
How is being considerate rude?
How is accelerating downhill and letting my speed fall to 40MPH, and in a 45MPH limit being rude if there is nobody following?
Most 18 wheelers conserve fuel by slowing while going uphill. Are they unfriendly?
Is choosing to use the highway for half of my commute instead of 99% freeway being rude or unfriendly?
If I choose to go around a traffic light, instead of stopping at it at 1:00AM being rude?
Is keeping a decent traffic buffer rude?
How about not gassing it to the next light, is that unfriendly?
If I choose to drive the posted speed limit in the far right lane of a 6 lane freeway rude and unfriendly?
Your 46 is commendable.
I'm doing about 60MPG without bothering anyone.
We are both driving sensibly.
2 Different styles, 2 very different results.
They are not doing it to conserve fuel, it is just almost impossible to haul 80,000 pounds up a hill. Even with an 800 hp/1200 ft.lbs engine you can not maintain 70 mph up a long incline with 80,000 lbs load.
Speaking of trucks, if truck drivers can shift 16 gears all day long, why can't most of us shift 5 for an hour or two a day?
me: Yes and the accelerator works too - well it works to rev the engine, but if in neutral it doesn't work the wheels. And some safety professionals (supposedly) have done an analysis that says it is better to have brakes and acceleration. An example? Improbable? probably. But it only has to happen 1 time. If you're wrong you're dead.
You're coasting down a hill and a truck behind you loses its brakes, or they're overheating. I think I'd want to accelerate, not brake. ;-) So the choice is save a little gas, or increase the risk to your life. Your life is worth saving a little gas?
I suspect that they could gas it more and increase/maintain speed but choose not to.
I had attributed their choice to saving fuel.
Many steep hills have run-away truck ramps on them. I guess this can happy occassionally, or the government wouldn't have went thru the expense to build these ramps.
The intent of the law to keep vehicles in gear, is so the driver will be able to get on the power as fast as possible without the delay of thinking & putting the car back in gear. If you remember the last time you were in a panic situation - they occur very quickly and without warning.
.
I would not accelerate (there might be a curve ahead). I would move to the left lane, brake hard, and let him pass.
Sorry guys, but I don't see anything wrong with coasting downhill in neutral. My brakes still work... I can still avoid obstacles, simply by braking.
troy
And if people don't get it, I hope that they get a few tickets and then they may realize that just because they don't get it, doesn't mean it isn't right.
I can't think of any.
troy
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