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Outback vs Highlander vs RAV4
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Comments
I have never gone, but I will be bringing up an old '76 F250 Ranger this spring so I hope to maybe get that thing off the road beds now and again.
-mike
I was just trying to show that off road vehicles are set up quite differently, and that flex/travel is actually a good thing in that scenario.
Our vehicles are not set up that way. They're meant to handle speed bumps, pot holes, and a foot of snow, sure, but not boulder hopping. Our sway bars remain firmly connected.
Fact is, we would not be happy with the compromises necessary to make our vehicles ideally suited for that sort of task.
Also:
The '08 subie 2.5i outback I drove did well handling left wheels on asphalt and right wheels on gravel. But its engine was gutless for passing.
The 2.5 XT is supposed to be a lot more responsive, but (no samples to drive) I'm concerned it will have the typical Subaru no-torque response (like the WRX I drove a year or two ago which was fine if one likes hi-rev turbo "rush" but sluggish otherwise).
Any comments on the turbo's characteristics?
You may not need them - VTD AWD is very capable.
The original WRX had a 2.0l turbo, they now use a 2.5l which has less lag. Besides the 25% extra displacement there is also AVCS valve control, so it makes more torque sooner.
I think either one will do fine. OB probably has more clearance but isn't as good on the approach/departure angles. I'd give the nod to Subaru on the AWD system.
Then again, were I to spend a few miles in an XT, I might feel otherwise.
The 2.5 i did ok "off the line" (traction was fine), but trying to pass on a moderate hill going 45 or so was sluggish (hard push on the accelerator did very little, and as the trans shifted down there was very little difference in acceleration), and inspired no confidence it will handle mountain grades I deal with on trips.
I'm not trying to be ultra quick (if so the WTX STI would be the choice, and it isn't), but I definitely don't want to go backwards in terms of vehicle engine responsiveness in return for the nearly $30+ K Subaru is asking for that car.
Thnx for info on the RAV4: I suspect the Subie will do better wrt traction, but the RAV4 is more efficient in that its AWD appears to be reactive,not full time.
Agreed; especially in the 40-55 mph area, one has to drop the transmission to 2nd in order to get good response. 5000-6000 rpms provides a lot of "ummph" in this car.
the 4 cylinder 170 hp that doesn't have enough power for confident passing,
the 4 cylinder with turbo which has turbo lag and (unless you check a particular bolt with filter frequently) vunerable to oil stavation,
the 6 cylinder which has little low end torque.
bummer.
Is it perhaps because of racing emphasis that Subaru engines don't seem to work very well unless the driver is "revving" the engine and using a manual? I really hadn't planned on buying a race car :confuse:
As for the turbo fliter, if you change your oil and filter there is no need to worry. I have a 94 Legacy Turbo Racecar with 150k street miles and 10k race miles, the drivetrain is 100% stock and never rebuilt. Heck it doesn't even have an intercooler on it.
My 05 LGT has no issues at 50k miles and I push the turbo hard on and off the track, but I use synthetic oil and change it every 5k miles.
-mike
They need to replace the 3.0l H6 with the new 3.6l H6, though.
Ateixeria's nailed it - the new 3.6I H6 sounds good. Subaru needs to get it into the Outback (perhaps by Outbacks' redesign in '10 :confuse: ).
Subaru recommends premium fuel for the 3.0l, and not for the 3.6l, which is better in every way. I'm not sure how much more it costs to produce, though.
For the turbos, Suraru __requires__premium fuel __and__ oil changes at 3.8K miles or less. Not very enticing for my circumstances (your mileage may differ ).
My suggestion, go out and test drive each one. If you are going to do off roading get the Subaru . If you want an economical., safe all condition vehicle with plenty of power, get the V6 4wd Rav4.
Crashbox.
2008 Limited V6 4WD.
Crashbox
I will check the v6 RAV 4 out before I make the decision. Hearing that Rav4 works well in Oregon is a + (I live in Portland), as there are two good Toyota dealers near me. Not so for Subaru.
Pro:
* 2GR V6 engine is a gem (a big reason I bought a Sienna)
* gas mileage is also good
* transmission is not the 6 speed known for hesitation, so reliability is a +
Con:
* fairly basic AWD system
* rear door opens to the curb side, blocks loading
* obstructed visibility
Consider the NAV system with a backup cam, that would resolve the 3rd issue mostly.
We do a lot of Costco shopping so my wife found the door-opens-the-wrong-way kind of dumb. I can't see why they don't at least reverse the hinges, though you can get a liftgate on the Highlander.
The AWD system, although front-biased, is more sophisticated than it's generally given credit for - there's more to it than "slip-and-grip".
Like ateixeira, I'm happy with the 3.5 V6. Surprisingly powerful and efficient.
Hope to drive an auto Subie XT in a week or so - next on deck is RAV4 AWD6
...but A4 Avant 2.0T costs more (V6 costs _lots_ more), has less power (only by a little), and no choice of dealers (in my area). The last, given Audis' reliability remains worse than the others here, puts it out of the running. A pity. :sick:
I would have the same concerns you list.
Can you wait for the 2009 Forester? It'll be here in March. I think it looks great. The wheelbase will be almost 5" longer, and it's nice and boxy so cargo room should beat the Outback.
Or is this the Japanese introduction date, with a later USA date to follow?
If this new Forester has a comfortable seat (with real heigth adjustment), and the WRX engine with a 5-speed auto option, that would be a winner for me.
They may keep the 4EAT for the first year on the Forester, which IMO is a mistake. Not sure if the XT models will get a 5EAT.
Shoot, Mitsubishi's Outlander already has 6 speeds.
Problem is, Subaru is working on a CVT, so they may not want to invest in the auto right now.
Here's what it looks like:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/10/yet-more-images-of-the-2009-subaru-forester
Hopefully Subaru will improve it, and not just carry it over from last year.
The turbo will stick with the same powertrains it has now, as the WRX did.
Again, they're working on a CVT so I'd be surprised if they put in a 5EAT (though I hope I'm wrong).
One good thing - the automatic has been reliable, so it lessens the risk on a new model.
Observations of the Outback XT limited:
In sport mode, it __definitely__ had turbo lag. Sport took at least 1-2 seconds before the engine decided it wanted to "go". More linear but softer response in Intelligent mode - car didn't feel particularly peppy then. Sport sharp helped the in town responses somewhat but lag still there. Noted some drive line lash (car was brand new). Seats comfortable but get too hot on maximum heat setting. Ride was euro firm but didn't notice any harshness. Seats leather and comfortable. Dash lights had a big step between maximum and the next level down, then stepped in increments. Did not have chance to try manually shifting the trans. Relatively quiet for a high revving 4 cylinder. Didn't tip much in corners.
I'll have to try the 6 before I'll know if this will work or not. The pretty much on-off turbo is a worry given several other publications have commented on hesitation and lag with this model. A pity Subaru has not addressed it other than the 3-position switch ( how about a dual-tuned intake manifold or some other torque extending technology , Subaru? :confuse: ).
How does it compare to the 4 cylinder models?
I just wonder if a used one would already be adjusted, and feel any different?
No manual for you, I suppose?
The turbos feel a lot quicker with the manual, a good second or so to 60mph.
No interest in manuals unless they are clutch-pedal-less, and Subaru does not offer them yet.
VW/Audi does, but reliability and dealer issues make me very hesitant wrt those.
Perhaps this is what the latest HALDEX system emarked for Saab's 9-3 is supposed to fix? But the Saab's out of the running (price, preceived market, etc.).
Ford Escape Hybrid AWD. This uses the Prius Synergy Hybrid drivetrain but with an additional motor and shaft driving the rear wheels. Ford claims the drive system is intelligent (i.e., it transfers power to the wheels opposite from what are slipping ).
This one's looking attractive as given the big hills I have to go up and down (which guzzle gas going up, and use up the brakes going down) this SUV may help save a lot of gas and brake wear and none of the other 3 in this discussion can avoid using.
yes it's less powerful than the other three, but uses way less fuel. I have yet to drive it to see how responsive it is.
Comments?
At low-mid 20s, it's fine.
For a well equipped one, they get near $30k, and then the interior starts to feel cheap.
See what sort of prices paid people are getting. At $25k or less it makes a good case for itself, higher than that it just feels too low-rent.
By comparison, I have never seen/felt Torque steer on any '08 Subaru outback I have driven, even when two wheels were in gravel and other two on pavement. m On other hand, the Subies don't respond well to the throttle (they have good ultimate power, but you have to wait to get it).
All you have to do is manage the throttle carefully. My Sienna has torque steer if you aren't careful, so generally I wait until the it's aimed straight before really punching it.
It felt very substantial, with absolutely no torque steer no matter what I or salesrep did. Although the roads were wet, I noted no brake pulsing or loss of traction on any of the wheels.
How do the seats differ from H6 to XT? Narrower? Larger bolsters? Subaru only says the XT has "performance" seats.
Some cars just seem to be blueprinted, i.e. built perfectly to specs.
But:
It easily out-responded all the Outbacks I have driven - almost felt like it was going to run away with itself at times. The fact that RAV4's V6 engine uses regular gas is another plus. A minus is the RAV4's throttle's hair-triggerish, like the Outback in sportsharp, but all the time.
You sit higher in the RAV4, and the leather seats are perforated like the LL.BEAN (the XT has solid leather seats). The seats seem a bit firmer. The RAV4 interior trim's not quite as nice as Outback, but ok. There's more interior room for passengers, with a little less for cargo unless seats are folded down. The rear cargo cover was almost a copy of that used in the Subaru. Most glaring cheapness in RAV4 was mouse-fur headliner.
I couldn't test the AWD (dry weather for a change, but was impressed the RAV4 could be locked on demand, and had various features to help with hills. It's not quite as sophisicated as Subarus, but for slow speeds such as driving on really bad roads I suspect there won't be much noticeable difference.
A Frankenstein project might be an Outback with a toyota V6 engine...