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Why so few economy cars with manual tranny?
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Comments
Given its basic nature, there are very few things that could go wrong with the Echo, so its kind of logical that it would be the most reliable. The powertrain, certainly, has been cast-iron bulletproof.
Now Corolla DOES hold the title of model with the most cumulative global sales ever (over 25 million sales since inception when it earned this title, which was probably five years ago now).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In normal driving, the 2.5 four cylinder engine (about as big as you want to go with a 4 cylinder engine) averages city/hwy about 23-26 mpg.
Not bad.
But it doesn't rev like the 1.5 xA (Yaris) engine did/does.
My sister was car shopping a few years ago and stopped at the Echo. That looks good, she said. I wouldn't let her even sit in it. True story. Fire away, boys. :surprise:
Sold her my 2001 Camry CE 5 spd manual w/60,000 miles. Trouble free at 109,000. Does use a bit of oil, quart every 1,000 miles. Runs like a top.
Putting the car-top carrier on is about a 4mpg hit.
The 2007 Accord EX stick gets about the same mileage as the 1993 Accord EX stick but has like 20 more hp and much bigger car. The last tank in the 07 was 32.6 mpg and that included some "I am going to be late for work" driving.
At 100K miles, my Echo doesn't use a drop so far. And those CR ratings were primarily what I was referring to in my comments, better results than Corolla has ever achieved. There was also a JDP 3-year study back maybe five years now, which listed Echo as the best model surveyed IIRC.
There was never a lot of data available though, because with only 50K sales a year for only three years before sales dropped way off, there weren't always enough Echo owners responding to create a meaningful data sample.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Doesn't blow any smoke. Runs perfect, power and (I think) torque wise. Took it to a shop year + ago because I didn't see any smoke, dip stick is clean as new, and it runs great. They said there was no leak, and when they moved it out of the bay the guy revved it high. He said he saw a touch of blue. It's valve guides, I guess. i believe I caused it by driving it too easy during the 60,000 I had it. I always tried to be in the highest gear. Lugged it some, but it didn't knock/pink, so I thought it was ok. Used a half quart right around 60,000 after a trip to Oregon Coast. I had to put a half quart in the little '01 Tacoma I had for 78,000. I don't remember any more in the 5 new Toyotas I've owned since Aug '01. 235,000 miles. Got some feedback last year on the Camry Engine forum here at Edmunds. Thx for the thoughtful reply, nippononly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In other words, if you make the WRONG choices about shifting in a manual transmission, you might end with worse mileage than cars with these extra smart, extra efficient modern automatics.
The down side of all that modernity is that if one of these computer controlled 6 speed automatics, or even 5 speeds, rolls over and goes dead on you out of warranty, you can be in for a mighty big hit, and without proper diagnostic equipment, you are helpless to fix it yourself.
Before that a couple manual trannies - '01 Tacoma base model. little reg cab, and a '01 Camry CE. They were 2001's so it was a while ago. The biggest difference I notice is the cold weather mileage. The stick shifts had very little difference in mileage the year round. The automatics are dramatically lower in the Winter. If I go on a hiway trip the Winter mileage is fine. But even 50/50 street - hiway or 40/60, mileage is way down. Then I go on a road trip and it's ok. Next tank, regular work & weekend routine, down again.
I found Edmunds just before buying those '01's. Didn't find the Forums until almost a year later. I was afraid to post the mileage I was getting in the Camry for fear of being called a poor liar. The Camry Mileage Forum at that time consisted of mostly complaints about what people considered less-than-window-sticker mileage. They all had automatic trannies. I regularly got 35-36 on the hiway, and 37-38 was not uncommon. Highest was 40-41, and that was for around 250 miles, from Tacoma, Wa to Eugene, OR. I remember it because I couldn't believe it. I kept track of every tank after that until I got rid of the car. I'm not lyin
The little Tacoma didn't break any records, but I got Window Sticker mileage, always. The next gen Tacoma, the current one, is bigger and gets better mileage. I did very well on the hiway with that, but it was the models (4x2 Reg Cab and Extra Cab, not Pre-Runner) that were not real truck-like, and not what most people think of when they think of a new Tacoma.
I was real curious about the '09 Corolla, Matrix/Vibe, and found this Forum. It's been fun, thanks, and I'll leave it to those who have a smaller vehicle, like a Corolla
Oh I wasn't complaining about the mileage those cars were getting at all. I feel having a manual lets me get by with a smaller/less powerful engine than I could with a slushbox.
In other words, if you make the WRONG choices about shifting in a manual transmission, you might end with worse mileage than cars with these extra smart, extra efficient modern automatics.
I think if you drive like a grandma, the difference between a well driven manual and a sit-and-steer automatic are negligible. I think the differences show up when people drive in their more aggressive, natural way. I think driven "normally," a manual transmission returns better fuel efficiency than the auto (my '07 Accord stick gets considerably better real world mileage than my old boss's '06 Accord auto).
If you check acceleration times between automatic and manual transmissions you'll typically find significant differences. Designers have traded mpg for acceleration. Civic for instance (according to CR) 10% better mpg in automatic than manual on the highway (5A vs. 5M) but does 10% worse overall. The automatic does 0 - 60 in 10.1 seconds versus 8.6 in the manual (a quite noticable difference). More gears that allow for higher top gear final drive ratios have allowed better fuel economy but there's still no free lunch (automatics being less efficient overall).
My first car, a '76 Chevy Nova was totaled when the thief ran from the police. It was a dog and I didn't miss it. My next automatic was a '85 SEI Accord (the first with fuel injection.) I really didn't want an auto, but my Honda mechanic said they didn't make the SEI with a stick. One day it just disappeared from in front of my house and was never recovered. It had "the club", but I couldn't find the receipt. It was 8 years old and I only had liability insurance. Years later I spotted one for sale with a stick. Extremely rare. The spousal unit was adamant that I shouldn't buy such an old car. I was grumpy for a week.
Now I own an '88 Accord with 217K miles that I love, but the spousal unit says it's too low to the ground and smells funny, and an '06 base Matrix with the power package (I hate those body skirts.) Both are 5-speeds.
Both cars have delivered 37MPG driving on two lane highways of the Maryland Easter Shore at 55-60MPH.
Wife says the old Accord INTERIOR smells funny. And it didn't help when after I got the Matrix I loaned the Accord to a friend and he drove to the golf course smoking cigars in it.
And, that's Maryland EASTERN shore, not Easter.
Maybe you can return the favor by using his car to haul a load of manure for your garden this spring.
I would NEVER, EVER smoke in someone else's vehicle, even if the owner was a chain smoker...just common courtesy....
It's an interesting discussion. On the one hand, I think fuel consumption is about simple algebra with some physics mixed in. Higher speed is higher RPMs, and higher RPMs is higher fuel consumption. But, on the other hand, I wonder if going at 25mph doesn't burn even more fuel than going at 70mph because of the lower gearing needed to maintain such a low speed? In that case low speed is higher RPMs which is higher fuel consumption, so one could conclude that it's not speed but RPM that eats your fuel.
A new kind of transmission, then, could best help cars be more efficient, rather than either driving habits or structural changes. In the meantime, however, I'd say just drive in the highest gear possible, regardless of speed.
I hope you don't mind I commented on your comment. I just wanted to make an observation. Thanks!
Heres 1 example: When driving up a steep hill do you:
A- Downshift for more power
or
B- Keep in the highest gear possible, with a heavy foot on the accelerator(But not lugging the engine)
Answer B
If you drive this way, you will average 8-10 more MPG than a similarly equipped automatic. This can be verified in "MOTOR TREND" magazine. The article is titled "TEN TIPS FOR FUEL TEMPERENCE". I have been using this technique in my 05 Corolla and "average" 40 MPG in the summer, with a mix of city and highway driving.(Even driving on steep mountain roads) Sure many cars get excellent "highway" mileage, but most people aren't on the highway all the time. Increasing your city/average mileage is what matters most!!
Don't get me wrong I have a manual on order as that is my transmission of choice for one single reason... fun to drive.
Every other argument is a myth from the past. The manual transmission is no more long lasting than the automatic. I know, I'm a long time Toyota dealer mechanic and racer. Toyota's (and every other auto mfg) automatics only suffer from driver/owner abuse, in not changing the oil. If maintained they do very well. My wifes 10 year old Corolla which is now reserved for around town, has 248,000 miles on the original auto trans and it's as good as new.
She got a new Camry because she deserved a new car. Not because the corolla quit. The gas mileage argument between a manual and auto is also minimized to less than two miles per gallon because today's automatics from Toyota are very efficient and do not require the hp they used to.
So feel free to buy either the auto or the manual as they are both excellent, and if 2mpg is going to break your bank, then get the manual. Most people do not drive perfectly enough to even experience a mileage difference.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The manu-matics the newer cars have could probably do something similar, though.
The surprise continued when I talked to the car dealer parts dept. and was told it's a "kit" costing about $5. Forget about a spin on cartridge....it's been replaced by a canister, "O" ring and filter assembly......I'm know I'm old ( well, I was only 17) when I say it reminds me of my 1964 Volvo PV-544 which had the same type of system.
I have the oil and kit now and will report back on how easy it went.
Likes:
- 40 mpg avg. with a/c on.
- Smooth ride and handles well.
- Roomy trunk and comfortable seats
Dislike:
- The electric steering sometimes feels vague at 65 mph....and it's harder to keep the car centered in the lane compared to my Mailbu.
- The need to push through all the items on the computer to check either time, avg. mpg, etc.
if this new filter system has any torque specs. for the
canister since it uses an O ring so the proper compression is critical to prevent leaks.....as an old
auxiliaryman aboard nuclear subs I can relate to how
these seals work.
I have actually owned 2 cars of the same model with the same engine, one was a manual, the other was an automatic (long story). Despite being rated only one point better, the manual averages 4-5 points better than my automatic did, with my driving. Same driving pattern, living in the same area, commuting to the same job. The manual will always do notably better for anyone who doesn't have the racer mentality hoopitup describes, and especially for folks who are concentrating on saving gas.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0609_ten_tips_for_fuel_temperanc- - e/index.html
I just bought an 09 Corolla and drove an extra 260 miles to get the stick. I believe autos are getting better, but I like the contol of a manual...and what I percieve as better mpg.
There is a torque spec. for reassembly that's printed on the SST.......I think it says 5 ft. lbs.
The filter element costs about $6.95 and is available only from the dealer since none of the auto parts stores have it yet.
6. Floor It to Save Gas
Cracking the throttle wide open reduces pumping losses and improves efficiency, but only at low revs (2000 and below), which means this works only on manual-transmission cars or manumatics that won't downshift. It also won't work on turbocharged or supercharged engines. But for all the others, using full throttle and shifting early (so you're not accelerating any harder) is the smart bet.
I'll keep giving it the gas in 5th gear at 40mph.