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Why so few economy cars with manual tranny?

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Comments

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    The Outback is a nice design, but that full time AWD system is hard on gas. Too bad Subaru won't go to a smart AWD system like Toyota has whereas it only went into AWD when wheel slippage was sensed.
  • cz75cz75 Member Posts: 210
    I've heard that Honda only build manuals in the Accord in batches, so there are probably several months between each production run.
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    A few years ago I almost bought a Ford because all of them had alloys. It's not true anymore, but that's how I remember it. 2001 or 2002 it was. The Yaris 4 door just isn't what I'm looking for. Toyota's own Corolla does it so much better. The Corolla parks small enough. But....I've been to San Francisco, and in about half that county anything bigger than a Mini is too big. A couple of neighborhoods in Seattle same thing. The Yaris hatch is ok. I just thought it was a one-person vehicle. Alright, two would work. Anything more than 10,000 miles a year would become tedious for me. That's what I got from the drive I took. Does not make it so for anyone else. It was a beautiful scenic drive of 225 miles or so. One thing to remember is the Yaris is built on the Echo platform. I believe that is the most reliable vehicle on the road (all vehicles, not just Toyotas) in the last 10 years. The '04-'06 Sienna isn't far behind. I do not need a new vehicle, but that hasn't stopped me in the past. I've got spoiled. A couple options I would very much like to see standard on all trim levels are heated outside mirrors, traction/stability control, and a power drivers seat with power lumbar adjust. Wasn't long ago I considered air conditioning (that worked well) along with power windows and locks a modern marvel.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Not so sure I agree the Echo is more reliable than the Corolla. It has been almost completely bullit proof for literally decades. It may even still hold the title of most reliable car EVER.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    By most measures of reliability available to consumers, Echo did beat the Corolla for reliability. It is I think the most reliable Toyota of the last decade, including Lexus/Scion.

    Given its basic nature, there are very few things that could go wrong with the Echo, so its kind of logical that it would be the most reliable. The powertrain, certainly, has been cast-iron bulletproof.

    Now Corolla DOES hold the title of model with the most cumulative global sales ever (over 25 million sales since inception when it earned this title, which was probably five years ago now).

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually under ideal conditions (cruise control, flat terrain, 55-65 mph) I can get up to 31 mpg on the Outback, and have done so repeatedly. However, this is a fresh engine.

    In normal driving, the 2.5 four cylinder engine (about as big as you want to go with a 4 cylinder engine) averages city/hwy about 23-26 mpg.

    Not bad.

    But it doesn't rev like the 1.5 xA (Yaris) engine did/does.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I haven't seen any reliability data that shows the Echo as being more reliable than the Corolla.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    How can anything be more reliable than a Corolla?
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I haven't seen any data that says anything is.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Being made in Japan both the ECHO and the Corolla are probably equally reliable! But the Camry is said to have problems.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Yeah, but the Corolla has done it for literally decades. The Echo was only made for a few short years. The new Camrys are having a lot of problems.
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    Echo was only made for a few years, so is not in Consumer Reports anymore. It was the only vehicle to have a perfect score for every year it was made. Also, at the time, the only one to have a perfect score for more than 2 years. Solid red dots, I guess you'd call it. The other data I heard, I didn't think I would have to verify it so don't remember exactly where. A study was done, not just JD Powers 3 month stuff, but an 18-24 month. I think it was on TV or maybe radio. Do not think it included 07, for sure not '08. Number one was Infiniti G35 4 door, number 2 was the Toyota Sienna. Don't remember anything else. If they said anything else I missed it because I was so happy I was riding in the #2 vehicle. Which at that time I was not sure was the right purchase. Drives like a Camry, but every now and then like a too-big Camry, is the best way to put it.
    My sister was car shopping a few years ago and stopped at the Echo. That looks good, she said. I wouldn't let her even sit in it. True story. Fire away, boys. :surprise:
    Sold her my 2001 Camry CE 5 spd manual w/60,000 miles. Trouble free at 109,000. Does use a bit of oil, quart every 1,000 miles. Runs like a top.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Our Legacy 2.5i Wagon stick gets low 30s on the drive down 75 from Detroit to Cincinnati. If you want it to go quickly, it has to be driven eh, in anger perhaps, but on a day to day it is powerful enough an is fine on the highway.
    Putting the car-top carrier on is about a 4mpg hit.

    The 2007 Accord EX stick gets about the same mileage as the 1993 Accord EX stick but has like 20 more hp and much bigger car. The last tank in the 07 was 32.6 mpg and that included some "I am going to be late for work" driving.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    At only 109K miles, I would call a quart of oil every 1000 miles high oil consumption if it were a Honda, and VERY high for a Toyota. That's too few miles for that much oil consumption.

    At 100K miles, my Echo doesn't use a drop so far. And those CR ratings were primarily what I was referring to in my comments, better results than Corolla has ever achieved. There was also a JDP 3-year study back maybe five years now, which listed Echo as the best model surveyed IIRC.

    There was never a lot of data available though, because with only 50K sales a year for only three years before sales dropped way off, there weren't always enough Echo owners responding to create a meaningful data sample.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    $4,500 @ $100 a month. It was beautiful inside and out. New license tabs and a full tank, too. Title swap was "gift', so $20. Feel a little bad, but that takes most of the sting out.
    Doesn't blow any smoke. Runs perfect, power and (I think) torque wise. Took it to a shop year + ago because I didn't see any smoke, dip stick is clean as new, and it runs great. They said there was no leak, and when they moved it out of the bay the guy revved it high. He said he saw a touch of blue. It's valve guides, I guess. i believe I caused it by driving it too easy during the 60,000 I had it. I always tried to be in the highest gear. Lugged it some, but it didn't knock/pink, so I thought it was ok. Used a half quart right around 60,000 after a trip to Oregon Coast. I had to put a half quart in the little '01 Tacoma I had for 78,000. I don't remember any more in the 5 new Toyotas I've owned since Aug '01. 235,000 miles. Got some feedback last year on the Camry Engine forum here at Edmunds. Thx for the thoughtful reply, nippononly.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Don't worry, the oil consumption problem wasn't caused by the way you drove it, the problem with the valve stem guides is widespread among the 4-cylinder Camrys prior to 2003. What's unclear is whether the problem continued well into the '02-'06 Camrys. Certainly, it seems that the '02s suffer from it.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There no doubt about it, the difference in fuel economy between sticks and automatics is growing ever smaller. It may be that only the skilled driver knows how to get the best mpg out of a stick shift.

    In other words, if you make the WRONG choices about shifting in a manual transmission, you might end with worse mileage than cars with these extra smart, extra efficient modern automatics.

    The down side of all that modernity is that if one of these computer controlled 6 speed automatics, or even 5 speeds, rolls over and goes dead on you out of warranty, you can be in for a mighty big hit, and without proper diagnostic equipment, you are helpless to fix it yourself.
  • bearcrkrdbearcrkrd Member Posts: 167
    They sure are close now, EPA wise. I've been driving automatics the last 4 years. Couple Tacoma 4x2 4 bangers and a Sienna 3.3L 6cyl.
    Before that a couple manual trannies - '01 Tacoma base model. little reg cab, and a '01 Camry CE. They were 2001's so it was a while ago. The biggest difference I notice is the cold weather mileage. The stick shifts had very little difference in mileage the year round. The automatics are dramatically lower in the Winter. If I go on a hiway trip the Winter mileage is fine. But even 50/50 street - hiway or 40/60, mileage is way down. Then I go on a road trip and it's ok. Next tank, regular work & weekend routine, down again.
    I found Edmunds just before buying those '01's. Didn't find the Forums until almost a year later. I was afraid to post the mileage I was getting in the Camry for fear of being called a poor liar. The Camry Mileage Forum at that time consisted of mostly complaints about what people considered less-than-window-sticker mileage. They all had automatic trannies. I regularly got 35-36 on the hiway, and 37-38 was not uncommon. Highest was 40-41, and that was for around 250 miles, from Tacoma, Wa to Eugene, OR. I remember it because I couldn't believe it. I kept track of every tank after that until I got rid of the car. I'm not lyin :D
    The little Tacoma didn't break any records, but I got Window Sticker mileage, always. The next gen Tacoma, the current one, is bigger and gets better mileage. I did very well on the hiway with that, but it was the models (4x2 Reg Cab and Extra Cab, not Pre-Runner) that were not real truck-like, and not what most people think of when they think of a new Tacoma.
    I was real curious about the '09 Corolla, Matrix/Vibe, and found this Forum. It's been fun, thanks, and I'll leave it to those who have a smaller vehicle, like a Corolla ;)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    There no doubt about it, the difference in fuel economy between sticks and automatics is growing ever smaller. It may be that only the skilled driver knows how to get the best mpg out of a stick shift.

    Oh I wasn't complaining about the mileage those cars were getting at all. I feel having a manual lets me get by with a smaller/less powerful engine than I could with a slushbox.

    In other words, if you make the WRONG choices about shifting in a manual transmission, you might end with worse mileage than cars with these extra smart, extra efficient modern automatics.

    I think if you drive like a grandma, the difference between a well driven manual and a sit-and-steer automatic are negligible. I think the differences show up when people drive in their more aggressive, natural way. I think driven "normally," a manual transmission returns better fuel efficiency than the auto (my '07 Accord stick gets considerably better real world mileage than my old boss's '06 Accord auto).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That is very true and given everything else being equal, the stickshift driver will get better mileage---unless say the manual and automatic versions of the same car are geared differently in the transaxle, as was the case with the xA.
  • lhansonlhanson Member Posts: 268
    The results for Echo are still published in Consumer Reports. They have been combined with the results for the Yaris.
  • mcmanusmcmanus Member Posts: 121
    I averaged 35 mpg with my 1989 Camry base 5M. Not the quickest car, but very smooth. Caught myself a number of times going 80 mph when I intended to stay at 70 (no cruise). The car cost $11k and felt very solid (not just tight like a good small car does today). Stupid me, I dumped it when it approached 120k miles and time for tune up, timing belt change, brakes, etc. The Camry's since have been too big (and too much like a Japanese Buick) for me taste. So when I looked for a replacement, the 2001 Corolla (generation 8?) only offered a 3 speed automatic, so I bought elsewhere.

    If you check acceleration times between automatic and manual transmissions you'll typically find significant differences. Designers have traded mpg for acceleration. Civic for instance (according to CR) 10% better mpg in automatic than manual on the highway (5A vs. 5M) but does 10% worse overall. The automatic does 0 - 60 in 10.1 seconds versus 8.6 in the manual (a quite noticable difference). More gears that allow for higher top gear final drive ratios have allowed better fuel economy but there's still no free lunch (automatics being less efficient overall).
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I don't know, I think you'd hard pressed to beat the fuel economy of the auto with a manual in the Civic. Honda really did thier homework on that 5A. I'm a hardcore manual guy and I actually preferred the auto over the manual in the Civic, that's how nice it is.
  • circuitsmithcircuitsmith Member Posts: 117
    I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if this has come up. My main reason for buying a MT is theft deterrence. In my ~30 years of car ownership I've owned six manuals and two automatics. Both the autos were eventually stolen. We have a serious problem here in DC with teenagers stealing cars. Most of them don't know how to drive a stick.

    My first car, a '76 Chevy Nova was totaled when the thief ran from the police. It was a dog and I didn't miss it. My next automatic was a '85 SEI Accord (the first with fuel injection.) I really didn't want an auto, but my Honda mechanic said they didn't make the SEI with a stick. One day it just disappeared from in front of my house and was never recovered. It had "the club", but I couldn't find the receipt. It was 8 years old and I only had liability insurance. Years later I spotted one for sale with a stick. Extremely rare. The spousal unit was adamant that I shouldn't buy such an old car. I was grumpy for a week.

    Now I own an '88 Accord with 217K miles that I love, but the spousal unit says it's too low to the ground and smells funny, and an '06 base Matrix with the power package (I hate those body skirts.) Both are 5-speeds.

    Both cars have delivered 37MPG driving on two lane highways of the Maryland Easter Shore at 55-60MPH.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can save an enormous amount of gasoline driving at 55 mph instead of 70 mph, and using cruise control on flat or gently rolling terrain. I can vary my mpg a full 30% depending solely on how I drive.
  • circuitsmithcircuitsmith Member Posts: 117
    Corrections:

    Wife says the old Accord INTERIOR smells funny. And it didn't help when after I got the Matrix I loaned the Accord to a friend and he drove to the golf course smoking cigars in it.

    And, that's Maryland EASTERN shore, not Easter.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    And it didn't help when after I got the Matrix I loaned the Accord to a friend and he drove to the golf course smoking cigars in it

    Maybe you can return the favor by using his car to haul a load of manure for your garden this spring.

    I would NEVER, EVER smoke in someone else's vehicle, even if the owner was a chain smoker...just common courtesy....
  • dave594dave594 Member Posts: 218
    While finding a manual tranny in most econoboxes seem to be a problem as the dealers try to maximize profit, I was happy to find plenty of manual equipped car at the Scion dealer. I'll probably end up getting an xB with no options for about $15,400 including delivery. Since the Mazda dealer didn't want to deal for the Mazda 5, I'll end up saving $3k over what I would have paid for it. Only thing I'll miss is the 3rd row seats.
  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    But then you would be accused of driving like a grandmother, or be described with some other expression of ageism. Thing about that is, though, Grandma always got to where she was going in one piece! Slow and sensible was best for her, smart girl!

    It's an interesting discussion. On the one hand, I think fuel consumption is about simple algebra with some physics mixed in. Higher speed is higher RPMs, and higher RPMs is higher fuel consumption. But, on the other hand, I wonder if going at 25mph doesn't burn even more fuel than going at 70mph because of the lower gearing needed to maintain such a low speed? In that case low speed is higher RPMs which is higher fuel consumption, so one could conclude that it's not speed but RPM that eats your fuel.

    A new kind of transmission, then, could best help cars be more efficient, rather than either driving habits or structural changes. In the meantime, however, I'd say just drive in the highest gear possible, regardless of speed.

    I hope you don't mind I commented on your comment. I just wanted to make an observation. Thanks!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes you're right, slower is not always better--it depends a great deal on gearing, throttle opening and aerodynamics.
  • hoopitup2000hoopitup2000 Member Posts: 46
    Driven correctly, the manual transmission will always come out ahead when comparing "average" MPG in the same car.(Given they both have a similar final drive ratio). It all boils down to knowing how to manipulate the engine to minimize pumping losses.(Shift as close to 2000 RPMs as possible with aggressive acceleration).

    Heres 1 example: When driving up a steep hill do you:

    A- Downshift for more power

    or

    B- Keep in the highest gear possible, with a heavy foot on the accelerator(But not lugging the engine)

    Answer B

    If you drive this way, you will average 8-10 more MPG than a similarly equipped automatic. This can be verified in "MOTOR TREND" magazine. The article is titled "TEN TIPS FOR FUEL TEMPERENCE". I have been using this technique in my 05 Corolla and "average" 40 MPG in the summer, with a mix of city and highway driving.(Even driving on steep mountain roads) Sure many cars get excellent "highway" mileage, but most people aren't on the highway all the time. Increasing your city/average mileage is what matters most!!
  • podredpodred Member Posts: 127
    Toyota is a very smart company. They are also very conservative and want to appeal to the majority of the market. That's why they produce very few cars with a manual gearbox. The demand is extremely low. If it was higher, Toyota would ship more cars with the manual. They are not perceived by the auto enthusiasts as a performance car company, therefore the demand for a stick vs auto at a Toyota dealer is very low. I can assure you they are not doing it to up sell the customer an automatic for the money" as the profit to the dealer is only about $180 on the auto trans. Also the automatics retain far more resale value than a stick, so you will get the extra money you paid for it back when you sell the car.

    Don't get me wrong I have a manual on order as that is my transmission of choice for one single reason... fun to drive.

    Every other argument is a myth from the past. The manual transmission is no more long lasting than the automatic. I know, I'm a long time Toyota dealer mechanic and racer. Toyota's (and every other auto mfg) automatics only suffer from driver/owner abuse, in not changing the oil. If maintained they do very well. My wifes 10 year old Corolla which is now reserved for around town, has 248,000 miles on the original auto trans and it's as good as new.

    She got a new Camry because she deserved a new car. Not because the corolla quit. The gas mileage argument between a manual and auto is also minimized to less than two miles per gallon because today's automatics from Toyota are very efficient and do not require the hp they used to.

    So feel free to buy either the auto or the manual as they are both excellent, and if 2mpg is going to break your bank, then get the manual. Most people do not drive perfectly enough to even experience a mileage difference.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    I do!
  • hoopitup2000hoopitup2000 Member Posts: 46
    I do too!! You don't have to drive like a hyper miler to average 8-10 more MPG's. Desperate times are here for a lot of drivers trying to squeeze out every mile from a $4.00 plus gallon of gas. Suggesting ways of driving more efficiently are probably more welcomed than ever. I had a 2002 Corolla with the 4 speed auto and the best "average" MPG was low 30's. The heavier 2005 that I now own with the same engine and a 5-speed manual is "averaging" 40-41 MPG with 50/50 mixed driving. Sure, most people aren't aware what is possible with some minor changes in their driving habits. Many people are always in a hurry, and need to be re-taught how to drive!! Driving "smarter"; not faster is where it's at today for the educated driver. And driving "smarter" is not necessarily "boring". I am certain that this interpretation of the "myth" theories is not shared by all. The manual transmission is the most desirable choice of drivers who want the maximum possible control of their car. If you have any other kind of transmission, this is not possible.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I do too! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • irismgirismg Member Posts: 345
    Because lower RPM always = higher MPG. Downshifting, even temporarily, means higher RPM and lower MPG. Interesting algebra!

    The manu-matics the newer cars have could probably do something similar, though.
  • cpu8900cpu8900 Member Posts: 53
    :) A retired automotive engineer explained to me that the average person can't consistently shift a manual as efficiently as an automatic can. The Corolla brochure even lists the Auto. at 27 MPG in the city vs 26 for the stick.....but once out on the highway their both at 35.
  • cpu8900cpu8900 Member Posts: 53
    I sure was surprised when I went to my local Autozone and tried to purchase a non-existant oil filter.
    The surprise continued when I talked to the car dealer parts dept. and was told it's a "kit" costing about $5. Forget about a spin on cartridge....it's been replaced by a canister, "O" ring and filter assembly......I'm know I'm old ( well, I was only 17) when I say it reminds me of my 1964 Volvo PV-544 which had the same type of system.
    I have the oil and kit now and will report back on how easy it went.
  • cpu8900cpu8900 Member Posts: 53
    I've had the car about 2 months with 2500 carefree miles.

    Likes:
    - 40 mpg avg. with a/c on.
    - Smooth ride and handles well.
    - Roomy trunk and comfortable seats

    Dislike:

    - The electric steering sometimes feels vague at 65 mph....and it's harder to keep the car centered in the lane compared to my Mailbu.
    - The need to push through all the items on the computer to check either time, avg. mpg, etc.
  • hoopitup2000hoopitup2000 Member Posts: 46
    Good thing he is retired; because he is wrong!! The EPA ratings apply to the "average" driver; not to the skilled driver who can manipulate a manual on pure instinct.(More so in the city) Many drivers with a manual are always in race mode. I hear them all the time riding around in low gear with their aftermarket performance exhaust systems. They don't give a rat's a_ _ about fuel economy. That is the type of driver your retired mechanic is speaking of. A manual can be a lot better than an automatic; at the same time it can be a lot worse. From my observations, about 75% of the drivers on the road are average or below average.(Especially here in DC)
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Yes thats the "green" suposedly oil filter that the Saturn Ion also had. What a JOKE! Its a royal PITA and not "green" at all. Be very carefull you insect it for leaks when you change the oil and also check it for leaks like a week later. If it leaks there goes your engine.
  • cpu8900cpu8900 Member Posts: 53
    Yeah, I think I'll give my service manager a call to see
    if this new filter system has any torque specs. for the
    canister since it uses an O ring so the proper compression is critical to prevent leaks.....as an old
    auxiliaryman aboard nuclear subs I can relate to how
    these seals work.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The converse is that most of your in-town driving occurs with the torque converter slipping in an automatic, while a clutch is never slipping unless it's defective. So there is no power bleed-off, turned to heat in the TC.

    I have actually owned 2 cars of the same model with the same engine, one was a manual, the other was an automatic (long story). Despite being rated only one point better, the manual averages 4-5 points better than my automatic did, with my driving. Same driving pattern, living in the same area, commuting to the same job. The manual will always do notably better for anyone who doesn't have the racer mentality hoopitup describes, and especially for folks who are concentrating on saving gas.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • slowlearner1slowlearner1 Member Posts: 35
    I always keep in the highest gear with heavy foot going uphill...so I was interested in the article that would prove this is a correct method. However, there is no mention of this in the "TEN TIPS FOR FUEL TEMPERENCE". I have included the link. Maybe it was a different article...or maybe I missed it...

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0609_ten_tips_for_fuel_temperanc- - e/index.html

    I just bought an 09 Corolla and drove an extra 260 miles to get the stick. I believe autos are getting better, but I like the contol of a manual...and what I percieve as better mpg.
  • cpu8900cpu8900 Member Posts: 53
    You can buy the SST (special service tool) needed to remove the oil filter from the dealer for the princely sum of $40. It's nothing more than a 10 sided oil filter wrench that fits over the end of the filter cannister. In the center it has a 1/2" drive ratchet attachment for turning.

    There is a torque spec. for reassembly that's printed on the SST.......I think it says 5 ft. lbs.

    The filter element costs about $6.95 and is available only from the dealer since none of the auto parts stores have it yet.
  • hoopitup2000hoopitup2000 Member Posts: 46
    It's right there in B&W. Look at #6

    6. Floor It to Save Gas
    Cracking the throttle wide open reduces pumping losses and improves efficiency, but only at low revs (2000 and below), which means this works only on manual-transmission cars or manumatics that won't downshift. It also won't work on turbocharged or supercharged engines. But for all the others, using full throttle and shifting early (so you're not accelerating any harder) is the smart bet.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's also a great (but controversial) way to break in a new engine...low RPM flooring of the throttle. I did that on my manual Scion xA and it was one peppy little engine after 5,000 miles. It's an old motorcycle trick.
  • slowlearner1slowlearner1 Member Posts: 35
    OK I get it now. I was looking more for something about "uphill" but now I see the implication. Good to know since I have a hill I drive up everyday that is exactly in this scenario. There's a stoplight at the bottom, so I can't build speed and plenty of hill left when I reach 5th gear, but a 40mph speed limit.

    I'll keep giving it the gas in 5th gear at 40mph.
This discussion has been closed.