2008 Pontiac G8

cfazzari · December 2007

I wonder how many will sell in the northern part of the U.S. and Canada. A nice rear-wheel drive car like that, spinning it's back wheels in three inches of powdery snow or slush - me shoveling it out - risking a heart-attack - so that it can get out into the snow-plowed street because the DUMBELLS at GM want their new car to look and feel "European" - OH YES!! - where can I get mine? I'll keep my 10-year old T&C AWD Thanks Very Much GM...when I can afford one, I guess I'll get an AWD Charger. Pity. :mad:

qbrozen · December 2007

You must be too young to remember that FWD cars have not been around very long in the grand scheme of things. Yet, folks managed to get around just fine in their RWD vehicles, and this was even before ABS, traction control, and stability control. Gee, just think, folks actually having to BE CAREFUL, PAY ATTENTION, and USE DECENT TIRES in the snow. What difficulties!

qbrozen · December 2007

You must be too young to remember that FWD cars have not been around very long in the grand scheme of things. Yet, folks managed to get around just fine in their RWD vehicles, and this was even before ABS, traction control, and stability control. Gee, just think, folks actually having to BE CAREFUL, PAY ATTENTION, and USE DECENT TIRES in the snow. What difficulties!

paisan · December 2007

Life was a lot slower when those said RWD cars were out. There was no internet, no gotta have it now. One could actually take their time to get places especially in the snow. Nowdays you can't take the time to get where you have to be. Kids walked home after school, they didn't need to be run to the soccer game or the other town for a movie or play-date. I like RWD but for the general public he may have a point about the RWD being an issue. With that said, though I'd still get one.

-mike

circlew · December 2007

I would NOT go back to any point in time regarding performance differences in RWD then compared to now. RWD was paired up with terrible brakes, suspension and safety features with the same ill-trained driving public.

ANY wheel drive paired with the better suspension is advanced in comparison but the additional traction provided by the AWD/FWD is an added bonus. Actually, they should regard RWD as a different class when issuing licenses since it takes a higher level of knowledge and experience to operate in inclement whether. So, I agree your point on the general public.

The G8 is a return to RWD performance but looks like it is targeted to enthusiasts rather than the sedan set. That is why you will pay MSRP and the popularity will hold the first year. When you can get an EVO or WRX for the same price, I'd imagine the G8 might be a flash in the pan.

Regards,
OW

qbrozen · December 2007

for the general public he may have a point about the RWD being an issue

maybe. But, then again, what WOULDN'T be an issue? You can't please everyone. And I don't think GM or any manufacturer is prepared to produce a vehicle with FWD, RWD, and AWD options.

I mean, here they FINALLY go back to making a large RWD sedan and somebody has to come along and [non-permissible content removed] about it. UGH!! Go buy a Malibu! Or Lucerne or Lacrosse, or whatever the heck its called!

nojets · December 2007

I'm looking at the interior shots on Edmunds listing of the G8, there, to the top right of the display screen in the Blaupunkt console, is a button labelled "NAV." Are we being teased? I heard (not least on this forum) that this car will, inexplicably, not be offered with a navigation option but lo and behold, the official shots of the US car from Pontiac published on Edmunds shows at the very least that the system has the electronic infrastructure for the option. What gives?

Something tells me in classic GM style, they shoved an Australian dashboard in a US car for the publicity photos because they couldn't be bothered to get details like this straight for the photos.

mrsyj · December 2007

first of all I dont believe this platform is made with AWD anywhere in the world so we will not be getting an AWD version. Secondly, the limited production of this car means that Pontiac will have no issue selling out even if people up north don't want a RWD car. Even though many MB and BMW models are sold with AWD the majority of the cars they sell are RWD. I live in Philly and few premium European cars I see on the road have AWD. GM makes plenty of FWD cars for those who want better winter traction.

paisan · December 2007

Oddly enough, here in NJ almost all the late-model BMWs and MBs I see are XIs and 4-Matics.

As for this platform being offered w/AWD it isn't available, even in Australia, although the last generation was, so i don't expect it to be here either, but the CTS and STS do have AWD options so it's possible that they could put that in down the road.

-mike

qbrozen · December 2007

I can only assume you weren't really replying to me since I never said it would be AWD, and I am also a supporter of it being RWD.

circlew · December 2007

There is no doubt AWD will be a future option in my mind. The 300-C has this option and so does the Charger and the CTS.

If not, it will be another GM example of Decison making 101, Class F.

Regards,
OW

mrsyj · December 2007

"There is no doubt AWD will be a future option in my mind. The 300-C has this option and so does the Charger and the CTS. "

The 300 and CTS were meant to be AWD from the beginning. We dont know if that is the case for the Zeta platform. You cant just add AWD overnight if it wasnt part of the product plan. If GM feels that the CTS, STS and 9-3 have the AWD performance car market covered they may not make an AWD G8.

elias · December 2007

will the radio volume/etc buttons be on the wrong side like they are on the blaupunkt in the GTO-naros?

rayainsw · December 2007

Buttons:

http://www.g8board.com/08G8/

elias · December 2007

thanks ray.
having radio buttons set up for right-hand-drive is not a big deal but for me it's probably a dealbreaker if there isn't an integrated sat radio (on all other GM cars, thankfully XM can be converted to Sirius with "GM1" adapter from sirius).

rayainsw · December 2007

The location of the buttons ( particularly given the audio controls on the steering wheel ) is of no great concern to me.

The lack of integrated XM ( at launch ) does.

I do find this rather odd.

Along with such limited interior colors . . .

- Ray
Waiting for Model Year 2009 . . .

elias · December 2007

yeah, the location of the radio/volume buttons is no big thang. i mean the dashboard ones are "backwards" not the steering wheel buttons.
lack of XM is "typical". in 2005 & 06, GTO was the only pontiac without sat radio. i guess it's because the/whatever wiring harness doesn't support it, since apparently there is no satellite radio down under. XM satellite(s) are geosync, last i knew, and point to northern hemisphere. i think they have more than one now, not sure. sirius has at least 3 in really wacky figure-8-like orbits over northern hemisphere, with at least one over continental US at all times.

i like it that I could get cloth seats on a G8 if they offer a workable sat-radio solution. i might prefer the cloth to leather even though the cloth seats lack bunwarmers.
G8 is going to be FANTASTIC on long cruises. WOW is the GTO fantastic for road trips - 2000 I-95 miles so far this week. it's actually getting 25+ mpg on southeast-usa fuel/I95 (premium). in winter up north it barely gets 20 or 21 mpg on either 87 or premium.
back to the G8 - the lack of integrated satellite radio is a really big flaw - and a safety concern for me since fiddling with the FM-transmitter frequencies is both annoying and hazardous. also the music channels are often unlistenable due to static/interference. hey, i would have the FM-hardwired into the antenna if i had time/convenience for that... there is a guy on an esteemed GTO-naro forum who has another hardwire blaupunkt mod but i have neither the time (nor skill) for that either.

paisan · December 2007

Spotted G8 in times square.

I see Pontiac is the prime-sponsor of the NYE festivities here in NYC.

-mike

elias · January 2008

cool!
two mandatory words for future northern G8 owners: snow tires.

mr215 · January 2008

New here but I am interested in this car. I saw it in a Pontiac ad the other day along with the Soltice and their midsize car. Looked very aggressive on TV and I cant wait to see some road tests of this vehicle.

rayainsw · January 2008

"G8 does anyone know when this car can be tested by the media? I am curious."

Having now seen all 4 of the major U.S. monthly magazines,
Im betting that we will see G8 GT road tests in all 4 of them  next month.

Meaning they have almost certainly been tested  and the results are under embargo. For another 20 to 30 days, or so.

We shall see . . .
- Ray
Waiting for published test results  and an opportunity to drive one . . .

mr215 · January 2008

I would assume you are right about tests coming next month. I havent even heard an official on sale date other than "early 2008". I know they started producing the cars a few weeks back. Pontiac needs to update their site soon. The "preview" doesnt tell you much or have many pictures.

elias · January 2008

one of the car mags already published a 'first drive' sort of review of the G8 - not a full road test. i read it in a waiting room about 3 weeks ago - i think it was motortrend but maybe it was C&D.

actualsize · January 2008

Senior members of this thread will have already seen this. Newer thread subscribers might want to check it out.

We were so anxious to know what a G8 GT would be like, we flew to Australia with our test gear to drive, test and photograph a production version of the Holden Commodore SS. With the exception front clip, its pretty much a G8 GT.

mr215 · January 2008

a few mags did that but I want to see a real test of the US car with stats.

rayainsw · January 2008

Senior members of this thread will have already seen this. Newer thread subscribers might want to check it out.

As a Senior member ( in so many ways ) I do remember that test.
As well as the PickUp version.
Sadly, in that test, they chose to test the manual trans. version  and that is of no interest to me. Plus the manual will not be available at launch. And the V8s in Australia do not have AFM.

I am really interested in several specific aspects of how the automatic behaves  such as:

Does it rev match on downshifts?
Is the response to manumatic shift commands better \ quicker than the substantially similar automatic in my 2007 Corvette?

And how does the AFM interact with manumatic up & downshifts?
( Seamlessly, I hope, but we shall see . . . )

Additionally, I expect that some details like suspension damper & bushing tuning are at least somewhat different for to US version.

So  although that preview & others ( MT did much the same ) I am still very curious to see both instrumented tests of the automatic and impressions from journalists whose reports I have read previously.

- Ray
Hoping for the best here . . .

fsmmcsi · January 2008

"spinning it's back wheels in three inches of powdery snow or slush - me shoveling it out - risking a heart-attack - so that it can get out into the snow-plowed street because the DUMBELLS at GM want their new car to look and feel "European"

Baloney! Have you ever driven a RWD car in the winter? I lived in St. Louis and the Washington DC area the first 32 years of my life, and owned bothe FWD and RWd cars during that time. Back then a limited slip slip differential and good studded snow tires made a world of difference. Now, cars have fancy stability control, antilock brakes, and snow tires are radically better. Even so, when in college, I could drive my 1970 AMC AMX and the 1979 Trans Am which replaced it around the other stuck cars. Once time 40-61 in St. Louis was completely blocked, so I simply drive off of the shoulder, across the snow covered grass, and onto the service road (luckly, there was no fence). It was downright stupid that so many RWD cars of the past were sold without limited slip differentials, an inexpensive option.

dblduce · January 2008

Well, IMO, stability control and anti-lock brakes have NO effect on traction when trying to take off from a standing start in snow, so that makes no difference. I know for a fact that FWD has MUCH better traction in snow than any RWD car, not to mention you dont get the "fishtail" effect of the FWD as much as RWD. I used to drive a 1967 olds cutlass to and from college in the winter. It was RWD, and also had posi traction diff, AND snow tires. Every time I would try to start out from a stop sign or red light in snow, it would always sit there and spin, while the back end started sliding around. Even when the posi-traction did kick it, it still sucked. I loved driving that car, just NOT in the winter. Now, in comparison, ive driven FWD cars in up to 6 inches of unpaved snow uphill, and with careful pedal control, had no problem whatsoever.

I would have to say the main reason pontiac is going back to RWD is that they want a more powerful engine to be able to compete with the other performance cars on the road. Being a current owner of a 2005 GXP, I know for a fact that the FWD system is pretty much at its limit in trying to handle 303 hp. At over 360 hp in the G8, there is no way a FWD system could be designed to effectively handle that much torque and hp.

I still might consider purchasing a G8, once I can test drive one, and I know they have all the bugs worked out of them. I learned my lesson in buying any new vehicles from GM without waiting at least a year for them to on the market and tested.

white6 · January 2008

Curious to know what folks think the G8 is competing against in the market. I see talk of MB, Infiniti, BMW. Yet I don't understand how a car that is very close to the size of a 7-series BMW (look up the specs on Edmunds... I did) is competition for a 3-series BMW or G-series Infiniti. I understand comparing by price, but the G8 still seems to be more than competitive with cars that are quite a bit smaller. To my way of thinking, you get a rear-drive sport sedan the size of a 750i BMW, with the performance of a 550i BMW, and the price of a stripped 328i BMW. I understand some think the styling a bit bland, but I'll take a bit bland over GADZOOKS! styling anyday. I call it reserved and understated, but with nice details. Now, anyone want to buy my low-mileage BMW 335i?

rayainsw · January 2008

Since I have not seen a G8 up close & personal, let alone driven one, it is difficult to see if it will stand up against a 550i BMW. Or even a 335i.

I respect both the 3 & 5 series BMWs. A lot. And the back of the envelope calculations & comparisons I draw between the G8 GT with 361 HP & 380 TQ lead me to speculate that the acceleration will be quite comparable.

Pontiac literature suggests that they see their primary competition as including the Dodge Charger R/T.

Other ( important ) aspects of a comparison with either the BMWs of the Dodge, such as fit & finish, seat comfort & support, ergonomics, ride, handling, automatic trans. behavior, etc. will not be established until production units are available.

If the reality matches the hype & the reviews I have read of the Holden version, and the Model Year 2009 offers a few items \ options \ interior colors apparently missing at launch, this will likely be my next Sport Sedan.

Since it appears that my budget will not allow a 2009 CTS-v.
[[ sigh ]]

Cheers,
- Ray
Waiting for my test drive  for almost a year now . . .

paisan · January 2008

Yup we'll see how it actually sells cause on paper the GTO looked real good but it didn't sell well.

-mike

circlew · January 2008

Exactly...this might be a GTO story all the way to the end.

Regards,
OW

mr215 · January 2008

GTO was a different story. It had one engine, limited options, a 4 speed auto and a high base price. The G8 is not the GTO for many reasons.

The G8s real competition will be the charger, TL, CTS, 300, G35 and Maxima if you ask me. Most people who would buy a 3 series wont consider this car. I do think some TL and Maxima owners will give it a look however. Its going to offer similar performance to the G35 but with a lower price and more space. Its hard to see how the car wouldnt do well, especially when they only plan to sell 50k a year.

paisan · January 2008

Have to count out the TL and G35 in my opinion.

Will the pontiac dealers treat you in the same manner as the Acura or Infinity dealer? Do they include loaners at pontiac dealers? etc. I think the luxury and service level of an Infiniti, Lexus, Acura, etc. is higher than Pontiac will ever be. Not trying to cut down the G8 but they are the facts. Hopefully it'll sell well cause it looks great on paper.

-mike

mr215 · January 2008

first of all you get a loaner with all GM vehicles if your car is in for warranty repairs ever since GM launched the 5 year/100k warranty.

will you be able to get oil changes and tire rotations at Acura or Infiniti for less than $150? Probably not. You get better treatment and you pay for it. This idea that all domestic dealerships have bad service is all wrong. Dealers are independent and you have bad ones across the board. I don't care about getting coffee and smiles when my car is in for service if I'm being overcharged for basic service. If you are comparing the cars and not the badge snob appeal the G35 and TL are targets for the G8.

actualsize · January 2008

I think there is another reason why the GTO failed: Pontiac called it the GTO. At a time when people were still talking about the VW New Beetle and Ford's authentic modern re-do of the original Mustang, Pontiac brought back a revered muscle car name from the past and tacked it onto a nondescript jelly bean.

Not that the Aussie-built Holden Monaro wasn't a muscle car. It was. But it looked nothing like a GTO, and I think people resented that and wrote it off as a poseur. The price was high enough that folks who could afford it were probably old enough to fondly remember the original. Besides, muscle cars shouldn't look like the weinermobile.

I think the name G8 doesn't carry any preconceived-notions baggage. It's a better car, has four doors and looks damn good in its own right. It ought to do better than the "GTO."

rayainsw · January 2008

"Exactly...this might be a GTO story all the way to the end."

Although you may turn out to be correct
( we will not know for months )
I doubt it.

IMHO, the exterior styling of the GTO ( and the fact that many perceived it as somewhere between bland and a fake, since it was so different in styling compared to what they envisioned a new GTO should be ) was a big factor in the failure.

Dealers trying to ( initially ) change over MSRP was another factor.

This may happen again, as all I have read suggests that initially the number of G8s available will be somewhat limited. I hope not, but if it does, it may cause a negative impact on the sales. If ( for example ) I cannot test drive a G8 GT equipped as Id buy or order one ( if that becomes possible ) I will not buy one. Period.

And if my local Pontiac dealers choose to treat potential G8 buyers as many Chevy dealers treat potential Corvette buyers ( regarding a test drive ) this may well turn customer off. And if supply does catch up with demand, they may never return.

But.

If someone is looking for a bargain in a RWD sedan that appears to nearly match a BMW 535 or 550 in acceleration at ** A LOT ** less money,

and if the Dealers are reasonable regarding test drives and actual transaction pricing,

and if ( as I have posted here before ) the reality of production units meets expectations in several other areas, then I predict that the G8 will sell out of the volume I understand is currently projected to be produced by Holden.

We shall see . . .
[[ I am somewhat encouraged by the below quote from Lutz, from quite some time ago regarding lessons learned with the GTO. ]]

- Ray
Ready to test drive ( still )

= = =

G8 Lutz: 3 lessons from the GTO flop
Rick Kranz
Automotive News
February 19, 2007 - 12:01 am EST

CHICAGO - The 2008 Pontiac G8 is General Motors' second recent attempt to sell an Australian-assembled car in the United States.

The first, the 2004-06 Pontiac GTO, failed to reach sales expectations and was dropped. The coupe was based on the Holden Monaro.

During an interview this month at the Chicago Auto Show, GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said the automaker learned three lessons from the GTO:

1. The car's styling was not fresh. That body style had been on the market in Australia "for probably close to seven or eight years. So if you are going to bring in a car, it should be at the beginning of its design cycle, not at the end."

2. "We overpriced it."

3. The wrong dealers were targeted. Initial GTO distribution was based on historic Pontiac sales, which were heavily in the Midwest. But Midwest buyers did not want a rear-drive car. Instead, California should have been targeted at the beginning. "We will not make that mistake this time."

white6 · January 2008

Interesting discussion. I was one that watched with interest the GTO saga. Visited the dealer in Dec. 2003; they had one on the showroom floor with ROPES AROUND IT! Not allowed to touch it, much less sit in it. Um, it's a Pontiac, guys, not a Ferrari. Couple of months later, I visited again. This time I was allowed to actually sit in it. Not bad, other than my temple hit the roof when I got out. Still had a $5,000 "market adjustment" sticker. The only way you would be allowed to test drive was if you basically purchased the car first. Ridiculous. I'm 48 years old. And I went across the street to the BMW dealership and ordered a new 3-series. That I was allowed to test drive. Several times. I returned to the Pontiac dealership in September after seeing massive incentives being offered on the GTO. I asked how many they had sold since December. One. And now they had about a dozen collecting dust. I wound up purchasing for $8,000 below sticker (I had some GM MasterCard points that helped alot). Long story short: I hope they do the same thing with the G8; maybe I'll get one of these for fire-sale price, too. :P

paisan · January 2008

Don't get me wrong, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I drive a Subaru, so I'm no snob and definitely not brand concious. I basically had a GTO ready to buy but then a friend sold me his lightly used LGT Wagon w/5speed so I went for that over the GTO cause it was only 18k out the door with 15k miles on it and was a bit more practical.

I think that targeting the Charger and Tarus and even the Maxima are great targets to go for as that's the clientel that will buy the G8. The BMW, Acura, MB, and Infinitiy buyers are different class of people and really aren't the Pontiac demographic.

-mike

circlew · January 2008

Ray, a lot of if's, don't you think?

Here is a fact that lends me to believe the G8 will turn off a lot of buyers...my local dealer is allocated one in March and the future they have no idea how many they will get. That tells me there will not be enough around (in the 50 states) to test drive one as you would order one.

Strike one.

Regards,
OW

rayainsw · January 2008

Most people who would buy a 3 series wont consider this car. I do think some TL and Maxima owners will give it a look however. Its going to offer similar performance to the G35 but with a lower price and more space.

I have seriously considered the 335. Still am, in fact. And I am just as seriously considering the G8 GT. For me, the size of the back seat is much less a concern than the fact that there is a back seat  and doors for access.

With 361 \ 380 HP \ TQ ( and even with a curb weight of 350 more pounds ) I expect that the G8 GT will be a bit quicker than the G35, at 306 & 268 HP \ TQ.

The most recent G35 Sedan test I have seen was in a recent R&T:
0  60 was 5.3.
Quarter mile in 13.8 @ 102.9

These acceleration numbers ( seems fairly representative ) are helped by the somewhat aggressive gearing in the G35  final drive = 3.69:1.
And RPM at 60 = 2550 with the five speed automatic.
[[ The G8 will likely turn closer to 1600 or 1650 RPM at 60.
For anyone who might care. As I do. ]]

And with the G8 V8s Torque, I expect that it will ( perhaps just as important ) also feel quicker than the G35, in typical street driving. Much more like an Infiniti M45 than a G35.

But time will tell . . .
- Ray
Available for closed course. SEMI-professional driver duty . . .

white6 · January 2008

Don't know what "size" person you are, but I'm 6-3, 190 lbs and barely fit in my 335i. I expect (based on specs) the G8 will be a more comfortable fit for me. Our local car show is in Mid-March; I'm hoping a G8 will be available to the public and not stashed off-limits behind ropes.

rayainsw · January 2008

6'-0"
And ( um ) over 190....
Is your 335 a coupe or sedan?

bigelm · January 2008

Here will help clear some of the debates on who GM is planning to compete against with the G8:

white6 · January 2008

Coupe. My wife calls it the "little bitty car."

rayainsw · January 2008

a lot of if's

True.

In my example of the Corvette & test drives, there are many dealers that treat the Corvette as anything but a Chevy.

Yet there is one less than an hour from where I live that allowed me 2 test drives. I expect that some Pontiac Dealers will attempt to take advantage of the limited initial supply \ allocation.

The fact that your dealer has one in March and an unknown stream arriving beyond that does not mean that every Dealer has exactly the same situation. Nor does that fact mean that those Dealers with this situation will not allow test drives. They may not, but ( again ) no one knows, yet.

And in the case of the G8, I only need to test drive a GT \ V8 with automatic ( all initial build will be automatics ), Sport Package, Premium Package and a sunroof. These are all \ the only options \ packages available. And my guess is that if a Dealer has more than a couple, they will have one equipped like that.

If a specific Dealer does not allow me a comprehensive test drive, I will not buy  from THAT dealer.

I drove 200 miles ( round trip ) last time I bought a Pontiac  and that Dealer is where I will likely buy a G8, should I decide to purchase one.

I am not yet ready to call: Strike One.

I am in no particular hurry to order or purchase.
So, if there are initially few available, but the boats from Australia continue to arrive with additional inventory - and supply does catch up with demand, this will not particularly bother me. I will still be interested.

Another if.

But, by my count: Strike 0.

All my other ifs remain as unknown as well.

- Ray
Anticipating this car, but not really impatient . . .

bigelm · January 2008

This should give a good indication as to who GM is competing against or at least a marketing target.

http://i17.tinypic.com/6l8inwo.jpg
http://i15.tinypic.com/71mmvj9.jpg

circlew · January 2008

OK...you are an offensive umpire.

Judging from the Enclave situation at my local dealer, I would assume customers will have a hard time getting a drive scheduled during the first year. I liken it to trying to test drive a 300C SRT during year 1...you need to find a dealer that has one. The Enclave is HOT and I assume the G8 will also be hot...until your wallet can't stand the heat!

Impatience will no doubt lead to lower sales volume than anticipated at GM.

It's always better to wait until YR2 anyway...I'll no doubt check it out if available but will not go out of the way to get one of the first to land in the US. There are just too many other choices out there.

Regards,
OW

rayainsw · January 2008

"OK...you are an offensive umpire."

No offense intended...

paisan · January 2008

It's always better to wait until YR2 anyway...I'll no doubt check it out if available but will not go out of the way to get one of the first to land in the US.

Actually though this isn't the first year production, as the car has been available for at least 1 year in Australia before shipping over here.

-mike

2008 Pontiac G8

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