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My only problems with Lexus are two tings.
First ting. Lexus can do anything. Anything!
They have built truly beautiful designs like the Lexus IS, LF-A, and the original SC, they have as much design talent as any company on Earth. Period. Plus they have the money to back up any project. On their own, without Toyota's help!
PLUS their parent made the Supra Turbo, which needs no introduction, plus other fine handling and performing niche vehicles. So if they wanted to run, sports for sport, with BMW, they could make it interesting, if not climb that mountain.
They have made little effort to show they can make a great driver's car. All I've seen is lip service. Lexus is still young, and can add driver's cars to their portfolio.
I don't see the problem. Put a stick in the IS350, tune the suspension a little bit for some feedback (doesn't mean you have sacrifice NVH), and get some real power into the 250.
My other problem is Lexus SAYS the GS and IS are designed to compete with the 3 and 5, but they don't. They "target" the limp-wristed poseurs who want a cool car, but can't drive.
Where I come from, if you're gonna be a bear, be a Grizzly Bear! IF you do it, do it right. It's like they're afraid of competing head to head with a BMW, when I know they can do it!
If they apply themselves, they can do anything.
Luxury cars are their business.
Make sports sedans their avocation, a hobby.
At this point, no one really expects a great sports sedan out of Lexus.
No time like the present to "Release the Beast".
The LF-A is a perfect example! That won't have a stick! Why? :mad: F430, Gallardo, 911 Turbo, GT3, Vanquish. They ALL have one! What's the problem?
If you know how to drive, why go to a Lexus store? It's like they don't want you anyway, right. :confuse:
I am still very into making a sports division for Lexus, with the IS, an IS Coupe, the GS, and SC all designed to inspire "The Passionate Pursuit of Performance".
Manual transmissions, sport packages, lowered suspensions.
Like the GS. You have a GS350 for the average luxury sedan buyer. They can step up to the Hybrid. Or get a GS460 for true performance. And trick that one out.
Lexus builds great cars, no doubt. Now I want to see the passion. That's all. Make the brand exciting. Push yourselves.
How many BMW-intenders want a fun car with a Lexus interior?
Lexus doesn't do fun. That's their only real weakness.
DrFill
Lexus doesn't do fun. That's their only real weakness.
Patience, Doc. I agree, but it would be a bad idea for Lexus to transform too quikcly as it would appear like a split-personality instead of the steady image it now holds. Over the next decade, performance and fun will be part of the Lexus image, but in the proper perspective and at the proper steps at a time... and I'm going all out here to say they will happen... cause I believe they will.
TagMan
my friend is considering purchasing LS460/460L., s550 7seires v8 any opinion guys,with details which will be the best 1.
with the most latest newest gadgets functions. best performance handling safest most comfortable driving seats i have heard that LS driving seats r not very comfortable any1 know? etc.
anything special abt the 7series tires?
(r those run flat tires on the 7 seri)
if it is whats the difference between run flat and normal tires)
it looks safe n different than the s class and LS tires.???
Is the LCD speed meter most advanced on the s class?
and just normal for the LS and 7 series.
any opinion will be appreciated
thanks
It’s obvious that in this situation not many people are going to buy them. But what I am trying to figure out is:
1 – How will this be overcome?
2 – Why is there such as disparity in availability, especially between New York and California?
3 – Even in states where there is easy availability as some of you are saying, don’t they have to increase the availability with increasing demand? Is there just one diesel pump at your local gas stations or are there several, rows of them? One pump doesn’t cut it if they start to flourish.
4 – If there is dearth, what comes first, the diesel cars or the diesel pumps?
As mentioned previously, I see a problem with diesel infrastructure. It would seem this is not a walk in the park. They have to overcome inertia not only in the market but with availability of fuel. Can the infrastructure grow with demand, will it grow? Both hybrids and diesels come with their fair share of baggage IMO.
You are certainly correctly. Of course IS250 is not comparable to C350. IS350 however is more than a match to C350. That's more or less what I have been saying all along, performance-wise, E320D is somewhat comparable to E280, but not to E350. Someday in the near future (hypothetically), if Lexus introduces a Lexus version of Camry Hybrid with I4 + hybrid, developing a total of 208hp instead of the current 187 (20hp difference is comparable to the current advantage E280 has over E320D), then E320D would have found a comparable entry: low hp, high torque at low speed, and fuel savings. The I4+hybrid combination doesn't even have to wait for the turbo lag that is quite inevitable with high pressure turbo chargers like those in the E320D.
But NYC is a rather different place, in a lot of ways. For starters, most people don't drive at all. Parking costs a fortune & there are lots of other "unique" things to deal with.
Out West (sorry, couldn't resist), diesel is available routinely.
Yep, diesels are perfect for cab fleets if they are the cheap variety.
NYC is not to be confused with the NY metro area which is enormous and laden with cars, traffic and convoluted ganglion of roads. Also, you are alluding to Manhattan residents only. The other four boroughs of NYC are dense with cars, so the city per se is no so unique in this regard.
I’d love to have a diesel as my workhorse because I put on a considerable amount of miles in that capacity. I like to keep these vehicles for as long as they can hold up.
Not sure what to believe but my answer is leaning toward no.
On one hand the deleterious effects of warming could exist within a fragile bubble which is tipped by the man-made factor as some scientists suggest... the straw that is breaking the camel's back. And I don't think it is harmful to be frugal with energy issues especially if it leads to beneficial technology.
On the other hand the lion’s share of warming seems to be caused by solar activity. It also seems that rising CO2 levels are caused by warming, not the other way around. And finally, there is a lot to be personally gained by the scientific community via money pumped into the research necessary. Easy answers that negate the man-made aspect don’t pay their food bills. Then there is the politics behind it and politicians aren’t scientists.
Gotta scratch my head here.
Also there are serveral sites you can visit that will show you the location, pricing of diesel and availability in your county and city. I know Motor Trend has one and there are many others. Just google and you might be surprised.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
IMO Lexus Luxury cars are peferred over BMW or Mercedes. Also I would stay away from run flat tires..unless you want to fork over about $3,000. when you replace them. Something about having to replace tires, rims and all. I can't verify this, just something I have heard.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I certainly agree with this analysis...I also don`t understand why the are so cautious to provide some models with passion!! I`v been a Lexus buyer from the beginning (althought I own Audi right now) and their cars weare a value, and did become better and better with each up-grade, but just missing that special feeling.. Tony
Brightness, that is a relief. I don't feel like taking you on today! :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
We drove the Buick Enclave on yesterday. I have one word to say: IMPRESSIVE. This is finally Buick's (And for that matter, GM's) diamond in the ruff.
They did right by not releasing the Enclave until it was the sure thing, and that it is.
First up, the exterior. Upon first glance, I couldn't help but think that the exterior's overall "bubbly" body sculpting was a reminder of the the Audi Q7. Not so much as to a be a blatant knock-off, but it is apparent. And that is no bad thing as the Q7 is one of the best looking SUV's on the market. And personally, I think that the Buick is better proportioned, less overhangs and all. It drew unanimous praise for it's simplicity and the lack of ex-GM like cladding, something that took them 50 years to withdraw from. And getting my wife and I to agree instantly is something that Congress normally has to pass legislation for. She loves Porsche's, I love Vettes. She HAS to have a Benz, while I can "settle" for an Audi or Jag. It's that type of thing. I'm pretty sure some of you guys can relate.
On to the interior, it's all glitz and glamour too. While it won't have a Q7/Cayenne, LX, or Range Rover looking dated, the Escalade, GL, MKX, and MDX can just forget about it. Buick did not skimp on the interiors, this to used to be the GM norm up until, oh, last year. Everything seems to just "fit", with a quality not akin to any domestic rival, and on par with most foreign makes. The material quality and craftsmanship is top notch. The switchgear has that Lexus-like fluid movement to it, and the gauges are also top notch. Very impressive.
The performance is another shining area. While the Lambda platform vehicles are porky, they still have decent performance, and the Enclave does not disappoint. The 3.6L V-6 sounding very refined as usual, and pulls this big ute with ease. And this thing is very quiet, almost too quiet. The steering and brakes betray this SUV's bulkiness, very direct and communicative. While a MB GL, LR3, and Volvo XC90 Sport may outpace it in a straight line, I have to say they may be on par all the same in the twisties, with the tall LR3 being the exception. And people/cargo volume tops GM's own Escalade/Yukon, by quite a margin(cargo cu.ft. of 123 versus 108 for the Escalade), let alone some of its rivals, and it gets 18/23 under the '08 EPA guidelines, putting it at the top of the luxury latter in it's class.
Of course, there were a few vices. The nose of the exterior is so wide it blocks sight of some objects. Some of the expected options in this class are missing. And this is a new platform for GM, which in term means it's unproven. But that does not worry me as GM's platforms of late have given great credance for us to believe they're on the upswing of things.
The V8 won't be out until late this year, early next year, so we'll have to wait until then. The SRT will just have to do until then, and trust me, no one is complaining, except for the $3.56/gal it costs me to put in ALL of my vehicles.
Relax, Tony. That day will indeed come. My indicators show it could be as soon as February 17th, 2437. :shades:
Good to see GM has finally done something exceptional. They couldn't do cars right so they apparently came up with the perfect crossover SUV, the Saturn Outlook. Go figure!
Performance wise, the MDX runs circles around the Enclave, any of the current Lambda vehicles of current vintage.
SH-AWD, a potent 300hp engine, and a well-screwed down platform can't be denied. And that is why the MDX moved from being a ho-hum to nipping at even the best handlers out there, and that appears to be the Infiniti FX, the BMW X5, and the Caddy SRX.
BUT, that's where most of the advantages stop, IMHO. The Buick actually felt more substantial in both the overall build quality and interior decor/assembly.
It's no secret, myself among others have no clue where Acura is going with it's SUV's in terms of style. The RDX looks like a bloated CR-V(in which the CR-V looks better) and the MDX's front end doesn't coincide with it's $50k pricetag. Even the newbie Hyundai VeraCruz has a better mug. But this is just a matter of taste, not acutual facts, which is impossible on this matter.
This is not to say the MDX is a 1980'S GM-awful. I'm pretty sure the MDX will hold up Acura's legendary reliability and customer service. And the vehicle itself puts the MDX into light much better than the old model did, which did not distinguish itself from the Pilot enough. But this model definetely changes that.
thanks
If the high end Range Rover held 7 passengers, she'd be on it in a flash, but sad to say it doesn't. No way is the LR3 even close. The GL would have a better chance with me if that V8 Vision BlueTec would come sooner, but heck, the 320 BlueTec GL won't be in California until late in '08, and I'd like to get the V8 instead, and it could be even a longer wait. If the wait can be endured, we'll go that route, because it will satisfy her and me both. If she can't wait, then it could be the upcoming GL550.
In addition to the GL550, I'll show her the all-new Lexus LX570 when it comes out, and I'm sure she'll like it. I understand that the previous problem with the flip-flop seats isn't completely solved, as they will not fold flat, but I am expecting that they WILL be power operated, and if that happens then I'm guessing she'll be fine. The non-power seat fell down from the side window (you know they are clipped to the sides)during a demo of the current LX in the showroom and almost took the salesman's finger off. The wife said "no thanks". So, the Acura won with its fold-flat seats.
So it will most likely be between the Lexus LX570 and the GL550 or GL Vision BlueTec. I know the Escalade and Enclave could be considered, but truth be told, there will be no GM product in my garage for a little longer. I'm still mad about the previous Denali XL experience we had. Tons of major problems and the service experience was no joy.
From what I've heard on this forum, the BMW X5 third row seat is an absolute joke... so it would likely be ruled out. I haven't seen it for myself, but with so much consensus here, I doubt it could be a serious contender without a functional third row, even if it's just used on occassion.
And the Q7? As good as it might be, she does not like its looks one bit. Go figure.
The current MDX is hanging in there. It's an '06 loaded... so she's got the DVD entertainment for the back, the Bluetooth up front and the voice-command navigation, as well as satellite radio and ipod hookup. Gas mileage is fair, but not terrific at about 17 mpg average, and she drives with a very heavy foot. So, what's the problem with the MDX?... None really, other than it's just not stylish and luxurious enough, and that's where Acura has missed the boat on their MDX, and has missed it again on the new one as well, IMO. Otherwise great SUV.
Good luck on your "luxury" SUV search as well.
TagMan
Basically a better-looking Q7/GL priced like an SRX.
DrFill
Does that include a power tilt\telescope steering wheel? The Escalade's manual segmented tilt-only is an '80s style joke, the sort of "yestertech" that doesn't seem to want to leave GM vehicles without a fight.
Shockingly enough, it does. It's tilt/telescopic with the Lexus-like exit feature that is programmable, like it can be set to tilt via keyfob or by opening driver door and will not tilt down until vehicle is started, very neat. Factor in the necessary tricks(power liftgate, stowable seats, DVD Entertainment, HID, surround sound system, NAV/Onstar,20" wheels, AWD and power everything) and what you have is a winning recipe that is right on time for GM and Buick. Now let's get the great Lucerne RWD so that it can be awesome. And in the process kill the Rendezvous, Rainier, and spruce up the Lacrosse. And please, please bring on the Velite.
How does the SUV that's supposed to be one rung lower than the Escalade in class end up being the most impressive?
So it's still the GL, SRX, Range Rover, Q7 and now Enclave that remain the decision choices.
I'm with you Tag. It would be nice to get a hold of the new Benz diesels in the GL. That would make things so easy. And the wife can't understand MB's decision on making one engine choice for the GL, neither can I. But the 550 is supposed to be on the way, so is a AMG version. Not sure if it's the 63 of the 65 that MB promised. They will be dropping the 63 in the G-Wagen later this year. They tried to fit the 65, but the 30 year old design prevented this.
And she still wants one of those things. This is the one vehicle that I had to put my foot down on. It's idiotic to spend that dough on that brick, right?
And the Q7. Audi has greenlighted the Q7 V12 TDI for production next m/y, which started production in August. This will be an interesting vehicle, with the most powerful "clean" diesel offered. It's said to be 520hp and 650lb-ft of torque and return more that 20mpg. Very interesting.
Impossible! So clean and powerful? Will never happen!
Seriously, sounds like it will be a great engine!
BTW, I agree that the AMG on the GL seems like a bunch of green going after the wrong kind of vehicle, but who am I to suggest that the SUV driver can't get in on some of the action?!
TagMan
Apparently not clean enough to be in a car. Q7 goes by the truck emission standards. There are plenty dirty diesels in trucks that are legal. When a 500hp diesel gets put in an A6 (and A6 not reclassified as a truck or given an exemption), I will believe in clean and powerful diesel.
Sounds very impressive. It's way too big for us, but its nice to see that GM can design a vehicle that doesn't require a "not bad...for Detroit" qualifier. Just curious, what do you think of the Ford Flex? I can't remember if there's going to be a Lincoln version of that or not.
Around the end of the decade we will be looking at the XC60, Q3, GLK, and EX35. My wife is reasonably happy with her X3, but she already thinks the NAV is way too complicated, and I assume the next X3 will have iDrive, so that is most likely out.
Everything I have been posting with regards to the "clean" diesel relates to the emissions laws in California and the dates of implimentaion.
The law that provides for California'a clean air standards has been the main reason that the "clean" diesel hasn't arrived here. The law says that by '09 model year the new "clean" standards must go into effect. This doesn't mean a manufacturrer can't do so earlier, but certainly can't do so later. That is why the "clean" diesels will start to show up next year. As I understand this law, it doesn't distinguish between SUVs and passenger cars, as has been incorrectly posted here on this forum. SUVs and passenger cars will be under the same regulation for "clean" diesel, and there will not be any exemtions for SUVs or light trucks. Please do not be misled by any posts that are incorrectly suggesting otherwise. The best I can interpret the law, the standards become the same for model year '09 in California, where the "clean" diesel would apply.
California has won a legal battle with the EPA regarding this law just as recent as last month. The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers has also taken legal steps to stop the clean air requirements in California. The outcome, if the Auto Alliance wins, could be to strip California of its independent clean air standards with regards to greenhouse emissions. The recent Supreme Court ruling in favor of California is a setback for the Auto Alliance, but the Auto Alliance could still prevail in its own case. Until this legal issue is settled, it is not possible for anyone here to know for a fact when the "clean" standard will go into affect... but currently under the law, it would be '09 models, which means at the latest, next year, which coincides with what I posted in my timeline.
The auto manufacturers are already prepared to provide their "clean" diesels for 50-state compliance, but they are not anxious to do so, and even though they can technically do so, they are fighting the California law on the principal that the California law should not be independent of federal law, and that the California emisisons law illegally sets fuel economy standards which can only be regulated at the federal level. But, as of this moment, the upcoming "clean" diesel is the law, and that law has not been reversed. An alternative would be to continue to provide only 45 states with diesels, but that is not the desire of the manufacturers from a marketing standpoint. They would prefer to have a 50-state standard that isn't quite as "clean". But, consider that the S15 ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel is already a change that has gone into effect.
Nonetheless, the auto manufacturers have had to prepare for the possibility that these California standards will go into effect, and it is therefore very possible that the 50-state "clean" diesel will be here next year... and from what I can tell, there will be no exemptions for SUVs, as has been incorrectly posted. The diesels in both cars and SUVs would offer the same level of "cleanliness".
If the Auto Alliance should somehow win their legal battle, then the timetable for the "clean" diesel would not be known.
This is the very best information I have regarding the more complicated legal factors that surround this entire issue. I am not a legal expert, so if anyone here has a better understanding of this, please feel free to post it. I have done the best I can. I am just trying to help clarify this issue and provide the deeper underlying factors that are at play here, and as a result, I expect more grenades to be launched at me... it seems to come with the territory lately.
TagMan
The EPA and DOT have revised all current federal laws regarding ALL passengers vehicles sold in the US.
The new laws are to be converted so that not only cars, but SUV's and trucks alike are to follow the same rules. Why do you think the new Silverado HD 6.6L Duramax, Ram CTD 6.7L, and Ford's new 6.4 Powerstroke all emit the same pollution as a smaller passenger car? They too had to add particulate filters, soot traps, and other catalyst to go from 500ppm to just 50.
And to add to this, the weight class laws that once allowed trucks with an 6000 pound GVWR from participating in the EPA's fuel-econ measurements will in effect be banned. Some trucks will still receive "special treatment", but for the most part, Hummer H1's and H2's, some HD pickups among others will have the single digit numbers on the window stickers.
And yes Tag, I'm in agreement that the "50-state diesel" will be here by early next year, if not late this year, if Audi/VW have their way. The new TDI's are being built as we speak with rave reviews in Europe. The new 140hp/250lb-ft of torque Jetta/Passat sedan and wagon will be on sale this fall. The 50-state legal Bluetec Benz will be here this fall. The 530d BMW will be here soon enough, followed by the 330d.
So to the diesel nay-sayers, they're on the way. Sorry that you still have that same ol' tired stigma that diesel are slow, noisy, and smelly. I've tried the first effort to our country, and if this is indication of how things are going to be, where do I sign up???
It seems that we have to "clean" up the misinformation around here about the upcoming "clean" diesels.
TagMan
I was out to dinner with 3 couples last night (good friends of ours who all buy lux cars) and no one even knew about these diesels or had an interest in diesels anyway. But they all knew and were interested in hybrids. That may be foretelling of most lux buyers viewpoints.
Somehow having to search out a diesel gas station (which likely means a 20 mile out of way drive when I not highway bound) and then further search for a label to ensure it's diesel fuel that will not harm an expensive filter is too far removed from the lux experience I seek. I don't doubt they will sell some cars but I do doubt that this becomes anything big. Inconvenience and luxury are not marriage partners, at least not here in the northeast.
That doesn't necessarily mean the hybrids will sell. The Accord Hybrid has been a disaster for Honda. The GS430\450h combined sell a few hundred cars a month. 2000 cars a year for the GS and LS hybrids isn't exactly "taking the market by storm".
There has been MUCH too much legal wrangling between the State of California and the EPA, as well as the Auto Alliance and the State of California. Interestingly, the Auto Alliance memebers include Daimler/Chrysler and BMW Group, as well as Ford, GM, Mazda, Mitsubishi Motors, Porsche, Toyota, and Volkswagen of America, Inc.
The manufacturers, especially Mercedes, BMW, and VW of America with regards to the diesels, would just love to kill the California standards and make life easier for themselves, but on the other hand they are getting prepared for the 2009 model year just the same.
In the meantime, Mercedes had been ramping up slowly with beta testing and was using the E-Class to inch forward and test the waters. Only months ago has Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, or S15 even been available... and I think it is premature to measure its future availability at this point in time. So, the E-Class BlueTec quietly appears without hardly a whisper and no one seems to know a thing about it. The Mercedes website itself is not specifically clear is it?
There has not been any big fanfare or normal promotion from the manufacturers, including Mercedes with regards to their upcoming diesels. Why not? For one thing, the Auto Alliance is involved in a big lawsuit against the State of California. Things looked very good for the Alliance up until just several weeks ago, when the EPA lost their dispute with the State of California, after the United States Supreme Court made a landmark suprise decision in favor of the State and not the EPA.
So, the Auto Alliance legal action is not the probable success that it thought it was going to be. It is truly anyone's guess at this point.
Up until that ruling by the high court, the manufacturers were in a partial wait-and-see mode, but also moving forward just in case.
All this action by the EPA (which lost) and the Auto Alliance (pending) has been in protest of the upcoming effects of the previously passed Assembly Bill 1493, signed 7/2/02, and better known in California as the Pavley law. This is the law that makes California's emmission standards tougher than the federal regulations, but also addresses the greenhouse gases.
Do you really think that in the middle of all this, Mercedes was going to make a big deal out of their diesel car? They are part of the lawsuit that is fighting the law that mandates the very car itself!! WOW! Think about THAT, Lj!
C'mon now, you are an intelligent businessman. When should there be a proper marketing campaign for the BlueTec vehicles? Certainly not until the legal issue is resolved, and all the models are 50-state compliant. So it's way too early, then isn't it? Again, I remind you that the 2009 model year is the actual model year for all this (BlueTec)to become official. The E-Class would be the lone early entry, and at this very moment, with all the legal wrangling, don't expect there to be a big fireworks display over just one car.
You need to be patient, and see this all through like the rest of us. Eventually, it will sort out, and we will have a legal ruling. I think that the timeline I posted is still the accurate one. That means that you wouldn't really see the kind of publicity you are expecting until 2009 model year introduction anyway... and from multiple manufacturers!
(BTW, there isn't ANY doubt that the hybrid perception and awareness is building as time delays for the diesels. I am not writing these posts as comparisons to hybrids, which I agree have finally gained public recognition and perception as a legitimate alternative, not necessarily expressed in sales, while the clean diesels have not accomplished that yet, IMO. It's much too early! Hybrids have been around for years. On the other hand, clean diesels?)
TagMan
I think this is why there is such a big battle over diesel availability in California. The mfgs. know how important this state is to their success and acceptance.
Just look at the difference between West coast and East coast attitudes shown in the last few posts. Amazing.
My hunch is that even though new diesel autos cannot be sold in California, there are probably more used diesels sold there than any other state.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My gut says this is a California thing and that's why there's anticipation out there. Here we lack the infrastructure to support it and folks are more reticent to change to something new like that even if the infrastructure were in place.
I saw a commercial yesterday on the Prius that states that Toyota is offering up to $2000 in incentives and in some cases offering 0% in financing. This is beginning to look like GM-style sales marketing when you factor in the brand new-only-a-few-months-old Tundra now has $3k on the hood for buyers. That's the cost of getting to big, to fast.
Lem, like yourself, I live in the NE. And I for one am glad to see at least one manufacturer stepping up to plate and offering we consumers something that is realistic and something that actually works as advertised. Yes, the hybrids have much hype, but beyond that, that's just it, HYPE. Time and time again, government and independent test alike have shown that the hybrid's actual mileage usually varies to the point of it not being feasible to even own one.
Diesels on the other hand, what you see is what you get. And if you would read my post on yesterday about the associated "stigma" on diesels, I could see why your friends would feel that way. But as with hybrids, they took a little time to ramp up. So will these new diesels. But with BMW easily selling 100k 3-Series, that's tons of exposure. The same with the Jetta/Passat, 5-Series, E-Class, and M/GL-Class as these are all scheduled to be in the pipeline by the end of this year. If I could get a hold of a Jeep JGC CDI, I would trade the SRT-8 in a second, but they sell them as fast as they make them.
I was out to dinner with 3 couples last night (good friends of ours who all buy lux cars) and no one even knew about these diesels or had an interest in diesels anyway. But they all knew and were interested in hybrids.
Yes but are they buying the hybrids? They are intrigued with them but find some kind of reason to not buy one. From what I can see, the general perception is that it is unnecessarily convoluted technology which yields concerns about higher maintenance and there is NO REAL BUYING INCENTIVE. Somewhere in the last sentence is a reason not to buy. Even among the Lexus enthusiasts around here this holds true. You’re not buying a hybrid and I bet your reason is very similar to others who won’t buy, from the Prius up to the LS 600h L.
The must-have hybrid market will soon be saturated (in some cases it is), tax incentives are waning and hybrids are going for invoice. We're coming up on game time for this product.
As much as I don’t like the idea about the dearth of diesel fuel pumps around the NY area, there once was a time when they were more plentiful and this could happen again. And diesels have certainly set precedence in Europe so infrastructure is not exactly something that can’t be overcome.
Lastly, we talk in terms of these alternate energy products becoming hits. Chances are both hybrids and diesels will amble along at a slow pace for a considerable time. Alternate energy is still a niche market with a lot of baggage to shed in a competitive marketplace.
But we’ll see. If fuel prices rise at a shocking rate it will become a lot clearer, quicker.
No - nor am I. My point wasn't about buying, it was about awareness levels. Everyone knew about Spiderman this weekend but not everyone went to see it. BTW - the reasoning at the table was that batteries would get better and better so it's best to wait a few years before jumping on the train. That is where you separate out marketing that is selling the long-term and getting awareness level up as being more important than the actual sale in the short term. The hybrid story of today is one of a developing technology that will improve efficiency better in the long-term than in the present. The diesel story is one of improved fuel and better filters more than it is a technology story. It comes across as mature with limited growth whereas hybrids come across as developing with great battery expectations.
With your advertising career and my college degree in advertising, there should be plenty of room for agreement here.
Quite frankly, it's too darned early to start an awareness campaign with the legal issues still wrangling through the court system. As I mentioned in the previous posts, the Supreme Court ruling with regards to the EPA vs. The State of California only happened several weeks ago! The Auto Alliance case decision is still pending. Shortly that will be finished, and the E-Class BlueTec will be used, in part, as an awareness tool throughout the beginning of the '08 model year.
Once the BlueTec timeline is confirmed for the rest of the vehicles, and in proper advance of their pending lauch, there will be money spent by the members of the diesel alliance (which includes Mercedes) to promote diesel vehicles. (BTW, the BlueTec name will possibly be shared with VW and Audi as well, which would increase awareness.)
When (not IF) the price of gasoline rises again (and it WILL), alternatives will look more attractive. An advantage that diesel has over hybrids is that it will offer excellent mileage and power in larger and more luxurious vehicles than the hybrids. The LS600hL just isn't going to be in the proper tier for large numbers of people to consider, but the GL, R, and M, as well as the E-Class are in a much more realistic price and equipment tier for folks to get a very nice SUV or sedan and still get phenomenal mileage.
In addition, the smaller diesels will start to roll out, and, there will be increased vehicle selections beyond the four Mercedes Benz vehicles. As well, attractive offerings from Audi and BMW will be considerations.
Diesel fuel distribution should slowly improve throughout the country, and do not think that the California market isn't significant.
The percentage of vehicles sold here in California is massive. I could do a google search, but I don't have the time right now. Perhaps later on... it is very significant number indeed. Add that to the growing awareness that will come to the rest of the country, and you will see.
I'll bet you without even looking that California represents a mecca for hybrid sales. Diesel will be the same. Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel is the ONLY type dispensed, it's everywhere, and most of the time it's cheaper than regular gas!!
It's too early for a promotional campaign, IMO. But it won't be all that far away!
And I am NOT saying that clean diesels will be a huge hit with consumers. I am saying that they will offer a legitimate alternative (with advantages) to the conventional gas ICE and hybrids in the near future.
TagMan
I think that people tend to over-complicate the driving issues here.
'Clean diesel' not currently available- so what would your advertising dollars buy right now? There is a substantial early adopter group out there interested in diesels however. Look at this group, even if you don't believe there is any such thing as a clean diesel engine, the subject is being discussed.
The price of gas is simply not going down. When/if we stop sitting on the Iraqi powder keg, major regional instability in that region will keep driving gas prices up or down quickly and without warning. This won't have anything to do with marketing- it's purely the oil market. This will inevitably continue to drive the US auto buying public to look for better mileage, and diesel can/will offer that.
Imagine this scenario- Ford is able to offer a diesel Expedition and F-150 with 30 mpg. How much 'awareness' would it take for that to get everyone's attention?
BTW, March auto sales, nationwide, showed one of the biggest increases ever in sales of fuel efficient-vehicles.... just the beginning of changing perceptions, consumer needs, and behavior shift.
TagMan
Now I realize that no matter how nice the new diesels will be, they won't be as silky smooth and as quiet as a good v-8 gas engine but I am willing to make that compromise.
I will also be helping everyone else when I do this because very soon after I buy a diesel I am certain that the price of gas will drop to less than $2.00 per gal. :mad:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And the world will thank you in the gas goes down :P
Jose
The diesels also aren't 500lbs. heavier than the gas versions, and they don't chop trunk space in half either.
Now, let me ask you this: would you buy the LS hybrid for the fuel economy? Because, according to you, there's nothing else it offers. Almost every luxury feature it boasts is also available on the LS460L. It doesn't perform any better in any respect besides mileage. The price difference is shocking. Yes, I know it's supposed to be a W12/760/S600 competitor, but that's too much cash for a hybrid powertrain, especially in light of the RX and GS hybrids' modest increases over their gas counterparts.
There is a lot I have to say about this car. I really admire how the LS looks, because it's understated, elegant and simple, like the A8. A massive improvement over the LS430. However, I find the interior disappointing. Being the newest contender in this class, I expected it to at least match the A8- but it lags behind.
The plastics are shameful at this price, it doesn't differentiate from any other Lexus on the inside, and frankly, some of its wood colors are simply tacky. The A8 and S-Class still have a clear lead here- their interior designs look, feel, and are expensive, and are completely different from their lesser cousins. The fact that the LS hybrid improves upon the normal LS with only a leather dash is embarrassing; you can get a W12 or 760Li with plenty of custom woods and leathers, and even change the piping color of your A8- not to mention the S-Class's designo options.
I, like many others, do not see the point of this car. On a good day, the LS460L will also get 20mpg, as it gets very good mileage for this class. On the other hand, if you want performance, the A8L W12, 760Li and S600 are there for you, with 4.4-5.2 second 0-60mph times. The hybrid badge is simply that: a badge. It offers no significant improvement, anywhere. As I see it, it's a marketing gimmick- one that not only adds 900lbs to the car and cuts the trunk in half, but also raises the price $30,000. Why, oh why? For the money a well-equipped LS600hL commands, I could take home an Audi A8 and a BMW Z4.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
They will offer a very nice alternative for all the great reasons that so many of us have posted, but there is always the possibility of some type of issue that we do not foresee, and it would be good to keep a balanced perspective.
In addition, the hybrid offers a reasonable alternative as well, but with its own set of compromises.
So, let's stay focused and balanced as we anticipate these new modern diesels, and realize that they will only be a step towards the much greater solution that we are all after...
namely...
500 HP, 500 lbs. of torque, 0-60 in about 4 seconds, 50mpg, zero emissions, and no imported oil.
TagMan
Why don't you see the point of the car? I'm baffled by this. Do you see the point of an S600 or a 760LI? Well that's the point of this car, to play in that space and to compete for that customer segment. With nearly 2K units sold before they are out of the starting gate they are selling a lot more effectively than other V12's. However you slice and dice it, it's still a car that gives you power, prestige and mileage in one package. As for the interior of the LS460L - I love it and find it quite luxurious and the equal or better of others in the class.
BTW - the 600HL does perform a lot better than the LS460L and it alse gets better mileage. You seem to be relying on the Edmunds review which has turned out to be an outlier,
Your comparison is a very good analogy for the LS600hL. It is definately in its EARLY stages, just like the cell phone and PC examples you posted. While the car and your examples deserve recognition for their innovation, they were nonetheless not as evolved, as many of us recognized. Nor is the LS600hL, as myself and others believe that the car will evolve, but is disappointing in its earliest debut.
Along with many others, I have expressed my disappointment with the LS600hL, yet I have given it a fair amount of credit (read my post #317 in the LS600hL forum). I see the "big picture mode" as you express it, and therefore am disappointed with this early entry, just like I was disappointed with the bulk of the early cell phones, but knew they would improve, and just like I was disappointed with the snail-pace and hefty price of the early computers, but knew they would improve.
Likewise, the LS600hL is just out of the gate. It needs to improve.
Now, if you need to hear some praise for the car, then you can read my other post I referenced, but at this point I am just replying to your post here on this forum whereby you referenced "the big picture mode".
Again - good analogy, and we anxiously await the improved and better-evolved version.
TagMan
They sound terrific... and they are in that sweet smaller-sized SUV segment that is growing... and, of course, they feature BlueTec diesels!
link title
Quite frankly, I can easily see myself in one of these small diesel SUVs when I'm not driving the 911. I wonder if we'll see hpowders in one also!
TagMan