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Comments
This country is loaded with great places to drive! And anyone from Canada, like Dewey, also has no excuse to complain that it's not possible to enjoy driving. It doesn't require an incredible car to enjoy a trip, but it certainly makes it more fun to drive a performance car on some trips. Apparently, some trips require a Jeep!
Obviously, from your post, you enjoy, appreciate, and take advantage of the pleasures of driving that exist in your unique and special area of the country. I think that's cool.
TM
That's always when it happens. After a string of tickets several years ago, I decided that I simply won't drive faster than around 72mph, unless I've got a "safety pack" of cars around me, as is often the case on I83. If I'm going to be late I'll just have to be late, that's much better than having to pull over for 10 minutes, being a lot later, and really annoyed when I get there.
I absolutely agree with tag, its quite possible to have fun behind the wheel without speeding. Speeding by itself (unless you're going "go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200" fast) isn't fun, especially in a boring car. I actually prefer to go 72mph and relax and enjoy the stereo, rather than having to worry and watch for cops the entire time.
What makes a sports car worth it is being able to take a tight corner on a back road at 60mph, perfectly legal, when an SUV would have to slow down to 40mph for the same corner. Blowing past those yellow "suggested speed" signs by 20 or 30mph is lots of fun, and the cops can't get you for that.
Amen.
Top speed isnt much of a priority to me, driving swiftly through twisties is a lot more fun. Too bad most drivers prefer straightline acceleration and speed over handling.... I dont understand where the fun is in that.
Not that I will disagree, on the face of it, with this sentiment, BUT... and its a huge but...
Cars we talk about here have a common trait - high performance, relatively high HP's and torques, and of course have all the burden of high $$$. To imagine that the high outputs from the ever increasing modifications of the engines in these cars are not meant to give the driver an exhilirating ride be it on twisties or on straight lines, is defeating the whole purpose of these cars. What is the point of a 300hp motor in a body under 3500Ibs? Is this not the real definition of a car meant to give the driver the ultimate in driving performance and speed.... We talk often (OK, not just us, but auto rags) about 0-60/0-100 and all those stats.... If an IS350 does it in 5.5s, with a 305hp motor, BMW must up their I-6 with a TT and reach same HP and of course, faster time through the straightline... ditto Infiniti or MB.
So yes, I concur with all of the points raised, especially from TAG and LG, but argue that for some of us with a strong lead-foot, a HUGE part of owning these lux performance cars is the speed the cars can safely reach and exceed without even the slightest hint of a perturbation... To drive a BMW at 110mph is nothing... Who doesn't want to have that feeling? Isn't that the whole purpose of the famed German Autobahn's? Maybe I need to equip my e60 for the tracks and go have my speed fun out there. It may well be about the only place left for some of us who loves to drive fast.....
Talking about equiping my ride for higher performance, I just put on 19" M5 sport rims on my e60, and those 19"s rides so smoothly its intoxicating. Here is a pic...
Now tell me if you won't wanna drive this car to its limits? It can get so frustrating on these California roads with cops everywhere... the county needs cash and its the easiest $$-generating channel for these politicians. That's my beef... Taking the fun out of driving... We get stuck in so much traffic out here, its ridiculous... And when you do have open roads, you hesitate cos, well... a traffic cop may just be lurking waiting to pounce on you....
Oh well... its not all bad tho'...
I agree with you that speed and handling should come together in one package. And many cars deliver that, but few appreciate those traits. They all just go, "hey my car goes to 60 in 5 sec flat!! Cool!!!" "Hows the steering, understeers a lot on the s bends? Huh? what are you talking about? who cares?"... oh well....
Btw your car looks cool on those 19"s. Good taste imo.
That's pretty much the reason I decided to try something new after 12 years of the Lexus LS400/430. The LS is certainly one of the better highway cruisers out there, but the S6 is just so much more solid, and composed. In some of the rental boxes I've driven, 75mph is about as fast as you want to go, but the S6 just laughs at that kind of speed, it says wake me up when you hit 140mph. Unfortunately we're stuck with American roads (and must share them with American drivers) so my S6 is never going to need its true capabilities.
Definately not all bad.
Remember Tricky Dicky's 55 mph speed limit? :sick:
Let's count our blessings.
BTW, I really like those 19" rims. (and the e60).
TM
True, yet you will still experience and cherish most of your S6's capabilites within the speed limit.
Lucky Dog!
TM
Shame... but, that's what distinguishes most of us here. We totally appreciate the driving dynamics. We connect to our cars. Those others you speak of might as well be operating an appliance.
I think we are a very fortunate group to fully appreciate those driving characteristics. I'd hate to think that I might have ever gone through my life and not had the thrill and genuine pleasure I get from driving.
Thank you, Lord!
TM
Like in dancing, making music, skiing: in the end everything comes to feel motion.
Regards,
Jose
Might as well slow down and enjoy the scenery until the next hyper miler blocks your view!
Regards,
OW
A man after my hearts, LG. On a spur, I put up my LX470 for sale. A guy showed up and said he'd like to buy my LS as well. I didn't even flinch. I said go ahead, make me a deal. He did, and that was all it took. In replacement, I bought an A4 and an e60. I plan to retire at 55 (10 more years from now), and Lexus just didn't meet my needs at this time of my life. But I saw the IS-F (with a NewportLexus dealer tag) the other day, and I think that is a car I can really see in my future once the kids are all gone
Absolutely! I've enjoyed many of the roads you described, and have done the old (side road now) "redwood highway" a couple of times in a Miata with the top down, as well as in my MGB a couple decades earlier, also with the top down.
I travel quite a bit for business, so the Ohio thing was even more special, as I'm not there that often.
Either way, driving is the thing for me. It's better in my "home" car, but okay in a rental. Going around corners is pure pleasure in a car you know well and that's capable -- in a rental Impala, not so much. But then there's that Amish poetry in motion that was the team of matched draft horses working hard and enjoying it -- beyond priceless. I guess I'm a teamster (old school -- see drayman) at heart.
I'm a lot more interested in the upcoming RS4. The IS-F's body kit is a bit too "Fast and Furious" for me, and I don't like the bright aluminum trim on the inside either. The RS4 will likely use a twin turbo version of Audi's latest V6, which I think is a better choice than a V8, and it wont have to shout about the fact that its a super-hot Audi.
How is the new car working out?? I am sure you are pleased as you go to alot of trouble to make it that way
The car is perfect- solid build quality with absolutely no squeaks or rattles. I must admit, every one of my 3 BMW's had some mildly annoying eccentricities. The 545i, for example, when sometimes I touched the switch to make the driver's window go back up, the window would go up half-way and then go back down again. It didn't do that every time, but enough times to be annoying. Shouldn't happen with a $55k car.
My current vehicle is absolutely flawless compared to the BMW's. All the windows work properly, for example. No annoyances of any kind. The satellite radio has quickly become a favorite. The break-in period is over. I am getting on average:24.5 mpg with regular fuel, which is very nice.
I could have stayed with BMW. Money wasn't a problem. What really turned me off to BMW: I didn't like how BMW service treated me when I brought the 545i in with a weak battery last November. They kept the vehicle overnight, without replacing the battery and then sent me on my way the next day, so I got stuck with a dead battery that evening in a shopping center parking lot and had to have it towed back to the dealer!
Other annoyances:
My account was always screwed up on the BMWFS website. In contrast, the current vehicle's website is perfect. My account is readily available. Whenever BMW mailed me something, my last name was always spelled wrong. I eventually gave up calling them to fix it. Hopeless!
I got tired too of the phony BMW "we are here to serve" BS of the sales and service people. The folks I deal with now are GENUINELY eager to serve. Believe me, Tony, I can tell the difference!
So, too many things alienated me from BMW. They had better get their act together. I won't be the only customer leaving them.
The current vehicle handles well, since it is compact, but it does have a small bit of body lean, which of course was totally absent in the 3 BMW's. Even though it is FWD, absolutely no torque steer. The current vehicle comes with adaptive steering which is something I can do without. I like consistent maximum steering effort throughout the driving experience.
Of course, the current vehicle could use a bit more power, but for 3000 lbs. or so, a 5 cylinder engine with 6 speed Tiptronic AT is adequate.
Some truckers already are out for revenge, mistakenly perceiving me as being at a disadvantage. I have already embarrassed a few of those red necks, absolutely preventing them from passing me from either side on the interstate. They forget: cars like mine were developed for the Autobahn!
To really stick it to those guys, I am attempting to design a special right foot arch support, containing pieces of lead symmetrically placed around the support, so I can make it extremely difficult for folks to pass me, due to the added weight pressing down on the accelerator, and the power boost it would provide.
I have not received a stern warning from the FHP for several months now. (In Toronto and North Carolina, the HP's seem to give out summons. Ewwww!! Nasty!!!) School is about to start here, so the FHP should be out in force. I'll be in "stern warning alert." mode.
Tony, did you get the Prius? The Prius is too small for me. If I had to have a hybrid, I most likely would go with the Camry.
Nice chatting with you again, Tony!
Can you explain to me why Audi needs an RS* brand? I thought the S* were capable by themselves.... And I like NA engines over turbo- or super-charged... Just a purist, I guess... Those turbos go a 100K miles and they become a dreg... I know I bought one in the B6 A4 1.8T, but I am not planning on holding that car beyond 100K miles. Once it nears that bar, its replacement time...
TM
link title
There is a video as well.
I don't understand the match here between the V6 Lexus and the V8 Genesis. I would think the V8 Lexus would have been a better choice.
Well, I'm quite sure we can look forward to more comps between the Genesis other much more expensive luxury cars...
I"m still a Genesis believer, as I have always been from the very beginning.
TM
some observations from the video:
GS has better exterior
GS has better interior
GS has better acceleration
GS has better brakes
GS has better fuel economy
GS has lexus nameplate
Genesis Wins?
Exterior: Sleek, inoffensive, and simple. It’s not difficult for one to realize that Hyundai had incorporated a lot of elements from the competing brands such as Lexus, BMW and Infiniti when designing the Genesis but overall it looks very well executed. The paint job is top notch with minimal orange peels and all the panels lined up nicely with minimal and luxury car standard gaps. I still do not like the “Klingon grille” and would prefer the optional 18” wheel to come without the chrome-like finish but those are just nit-picking to be perfectly honest.
Interior: This is really where this car shines, the materials used and fit-and-finish is all top notch and the center stack ergonomics is excellent in my opinion. The navigation system that comes with the tech package is very user friendly and the interface response time is fast. Personally I still prefer touch-screen over the knob/joystick type of setup but the one in the Genesis is definitely something I can live with. I was pleasantly surprised that the majority of the interior surfaces are rubberized thus provide a high quality, soft-touch feels. The only part that felt cheap is the top of the center console which is covered with hard plastic material. The biggest complaint I have about the car is the seats. First of all the leather quality isn’t really up to the luxury car standard and the seats are way too soft with a “spongy” and “bouncy” kind of feel. Also, the front seats are very flat, lacking both the side bolster and thigh support.
Driving: Overall the car felt confident with a balance ride quality between comfort and performance. It is no BMW in terms of road feel and handling but it can certainly hold it own against its major competitors. The steering weight is on the heavy side and that is good for this car. The only time that the weakness of the chassis shows is when the car is getting pushed to the limitation, for example, during high speed turns. Under those conditions the steering becomes very light and the road feel becomes vague. In my opinion this is the only time that one will be able to tell why its luxury brand competitors like the 5er, E-class and GS cost at least $10k more. However, for 95% of the drivers the Genesis will serve them just as good as its more expensive foes.
Bottom Line: Again, WOW!! I am sold. Hyundai is coming, Toyota and Lexus, you better watch out. If I am in the market for a large sedan there is no doubt in my mind that this will be the car. Period.
My wife will start to drive around "the twelfth of Never....and that's a long, long time."..... IOW, It will never happen.
I thought it over long and hard. I don't want to go back to BMW. Their customer service is far from the "luxury treatment" I expected. What a bunch of characters!
I looked at BMW station wagons last year, before I swore off BMW, and just as with their SUV's, found both the 3 and 5 Series Wagons to be ridiculously impractical. Not much room for real-life stuff! My current vehicle has lots more room than any BMW wagon. I fit my 68" bike inside. Can't do that in the BMW wagons or X5 or X3! BMW just doesn't "get it." What would one expect from a company that sees a need for a totally useless vehicle like the X6!
Sorry to hear about the rear window, Tony. Too bad it wasn't the front windshield. In Florida, we have free windshield replacements as part of our insurance. Not bad. Add that to the "stern warning" perks instead of summons, as another reason to live there.
There will be many more hybrid choices next year at this time. I wouldn't be surprised if Honda comes out with its own version of the Prius, firing a direct shot Toyota's way. That one might be worth waiting for!
Nice talking to you Tony!
Isn't that the same point that the Lexus guys were making for many, many years when comparing the Lexus to the German counterparts?... essentially that the Lexus may not have been quite as good in the performance or styling departments compared to the German cars, but it's "value" couldn't be ignored?
Well... now Lexus gets a taste of its own medicine... the Korean "value" can't be ignored this time around. :surprise:
TM
First or not, you did a good job! Thanks again.
And, I'm glad to see that you are now a believer in the Genesis!
TM
I can tell you first hand that the S cars are indeed quite capable. Audi does things a little differently than BMW and Mercedes. Traditionally, the S cars have been slightly above the level of the top BMW or MB offering in their class, but below the M and AMG versions, as with the S6 vs. the 550i and E550.
Audi's own in-house tuner is Quattro GmbH, who makes the RS cars. They generally cost more than a comparable M or AMG, but they are also much rarer, and even more powerful. You would never see a Q7-RS, for example, whereas AMG will slap their badge on pretty much anything.
With the A5 3.2 falling behind the 335i, the V8 S5 can really only match the BMW, rather than exceed it. Audi's upcoming 3.0T engine should correct this imbalance. The '10 A4 3.0T will compete directly with the 335i, the S4 will be better, but not as good as the M3, and the 425+hp RS4 will be better than the M3.
I appreciate that explanation and I am concerned that your reference to AMG might be misunderstood. While AMG variants are indeed available on almost the entire Mercedes lineup, they are still hand built engines, individually, each by one of a select number of specialists. If you've ever seen the video on the assembly and testing of each of the AMG engines, you would be so impressed and amazed. AMG vehicles are deserving of serious respect.
Now, to BMW... I guess I will just have to wait and see if the 2010 RS4 is any match for the M3. It will take more than HP... it will take a balanced chassis and suspension, and I'm not as confident as you that it will topple the M3. But, if it does, I'll have no problem with it at all, as I will simply add that terrific RS4 to my list of admired cars.
TM
AMG made the R55 and the G55, you just will not see Quattro (or Motorsport) stoop to that level.
I have nothing bad to say about AMG's engines. The sound of the "6.3" in particular is glorious. It's the cars they are bolted to that's the problem. Until very recently, the AMG variants were basically clumsy muscle cars with undefeatable stability control and far more horsepower than the chassis could handle. See the CL65 stumbling around on the TG test track as an example.
AMG knows this, which is why they had to create the "Black Series" meaning serious cars with more than just big engines. I give them credit for how incredible the CLK Black is (it humiliates the M6), and I'm sure the SL Black is going to be a monster. I'm just not impressed by the "regular" cars though. As TG showed last season, the C63 despite all its power was no faster than the old RS4, and easily beaten by the M3.
I have a hunch that the new RS4 is going to be very good. It's going to have more power and loads more torque than the M3, combined with much better balance than its superb predecessor. It may take a CSL to beat the RS4. I'm sure it won't be ready for 2010 though, considering the new A4 has basically just launched. Expect to wait at least another few years.
Audi's supercharged 3.0T produces 290hp and 310ft.lbs, so its right up there. The current 265hp/243ft.lbs A4 3.2 is capable of 0-60 in around 5.7, so the new engine should put it within a couple of ticks of the 335i. I'm not trying to say that the A4 is going to out handle the 3, that's not really what Audi does. Will it be able to keep up with the 335i though, yes, with more comfort, more space, and more luxury.
More comfort, space, and luxury? Heck, LG, a Lexus can do THAT. So, can a Caddy.
So, why should we applaud Audi for this? They are already known for first-class interiors. I'll look forward to seeing what the A4, S4, and RS4 can do in the handling department.
TM
I think they chose the 6 because the 460 would've been massively more money than the Hyundai, and in any case, the Genesis couldn't even keep up with the 350! It's nice, but $40K+ is an awful lot of money for a Hyundai. Depreciation is likely to be brutal. I just don't see myself choosing this over say, a CPO XJR for the same (or less) money. A two year old Genesis at say $25K starts to make more sense.
More comfort, space, and luxury? Heck, LG, a Lexus can do THAT. So, can a Caddy.
The new platform, the rear-biased AWD system, and Audi Drive Select have made the new A4 easily the best handling A4 ever, but it's still Mr. Sensible compared to BMW. If you want a BMW, you buy one, not an Audi clone. Audi buyers choose Audi because for whatever reason they don't want a BMW.
How narrow minded! :surprise:
Regards,
OW
I plan to test drive it soon.
For wearers of the brand, this will be devastating! For buyers in the know that want affordable luxury, it's a home run!
Regards,
OW
Historically, the Lexus LS has not surpassed the S-Class in similar fashion and terms, yet it was consistently comped and considered a tremendous value!
I think it is inevitable and appropriate that we will see the Genesis compared to the Lexus LS and even the Mercedes S-Class! The price difference is so staggering that it screams "value" more than the original Lexus LS ever did.
By all reasonable measurements thus far, the performance parameters of the Genesis are only marginally different than it's competitors, yet it's price is so much lower it is practically incomprehensible.
The Genesis is clearly the luxury car value of the century!
I can't wait to see the Genesis comped to the Lexus LS and German counterparts!
TM
Someone is getting it...
:P
Okay, now that is a bit of a stretch...
During my times in the Genesis there is no way that this car reminded me of luxury flagships like the LS/7er/S. To be perfectly honest the interior quality really isn't up to the GS/5er/E standard yet and probably not even in the same level as some of the entry level luxury sedans. The reason why the Genesis stacks up well against the GS is because that it provides 95% of the car with 75% of the price.
Everyone can do leather, navi, wood (by the way, Genesis doesn't have real wood) these days but it's really down to the details where the luxury brands shine. Personally if my mind is set to get the GS there is no way that I will settle for the Genesis. However, If I am simply in the market for the best large sedan with the best value and all the toys then Genesis is the only way to go.
If you have $40K would you buy:
a) Hyundai (of any name or make)
b) BMW
c) Lexus
d) Infiniti
e) Audi
If you answer (a), then I suggest you find another forum to post at :surprise:
Hyundai needs a Lux division to make an impact. And not by stretching the chassis of a Hyundai Sonata, slapping on big engines (of suspect output, by Hyundai history) which does 0-60 at a pedestrian <6s blah.... I mean, is that what Hyundai puts out and expects respect??? And please let us not talk about refinement...
And yes I will check one out and see if what Louiswei says holds true. But for now, count me as a HUGE skeptic of anything from Hyundai. And LG said it right... after the huge depreciation, a CPO Genesis is the screaming value...
Wasn't the Azeria supposed to put a dent in the Avalon and the other near-luxury mid-size sedan??? Where is the Hyundai Azeria today? Anyone know?
We're talking "value" here. Possibly unprecedented value. Certainly rare value, at a minimum. No one has said the Genesis is the preferred vehicle here. And, even if someone did, they certainly could still post on this forum... although they'd get a lot of heat.
From my perspective, this car is a huge bang for the buck in the luxury arena... more like an explosion than a bang.
Credit where it's due. That doesn't mean we all should go get one. But, then that wouldn't be so bad if someone here wanted to spend $40K and get a new and modern luxury car in the form of a Genesis.
The new car luxury buyers will have to seriously consider the value of the Genesis. The bigger question is, can they own a $40K car, no matter how great, with the (minimized) Hyundai badge on it?
Me? For the most part, I prefer to buy European (or Honda)!
TM
BTW, 40K doesn't do it for BMW, Lexus, Audi, et al. for the size/class targeted by the Genesis. The price of admission is almost double so let's be real. 40k gets a stripped 335i (almost) or well optioned 328i...or an A4. Base luxury at best.
Heck, a 3 YO off-lease 745il is $45 -$50K.
The point is, this care is yelling at the industry that there is a luxury car in reach of many more buyers and that's what's great about this car at this time.
Besides, what's wrong with a sleeper luxury car that saves you money up front? You can smile from ear to ear every day as you quietly float on down the road!
I welcome new poster to this Luxury discussion that will own a Genesis!
Regards,
OW
+1
I agree.
TM
It's really good to read posts with your signature attached!
As far as the Genesis topic goes, it's not new at all here, but Lou is the first to report an actual test drive, and Edmunds just released their first comp, so it brings the Genesis to the front burner again for a while. The Genesis is an interesting topic because it's a whole new situation that is mostly unprecedented, although it does remind me of the early LS release in some ways. I'm sure the Genesis will evolve over time, and you may be right about the necessity for a dedicated lux division of Hyundai. It's all to be seen. But, I really find this car and it's destiny to be quite interesting. Too bad the large V8 sedan category is experienceing slow sales, or we'd have an even more exciting story to watch unfold.
Anyway, good to have you hanging around.
TM
Although the University of Michigan’s American Customer Satisfaction Index doesn’t have the clout of other industry surveys – such as J.D. Power and Consumer Reports – it does give an indication of a customer’s satisfaction with a six month to three year old vehicle. The domestic automakers probably should start taking note of U of M’s study as all three performed poorly in this year’s survey.
The Big Three had actually been gaining on their Japanese and German rivals over the past few years, but the Michigan automakers took a big hit this year. “The gap is extending. Detroit is falling,” Claes Fornell, the professor in charge of the study, told The Detroit News. “It’s all foreign at the top and all American at the bottom.”
Fornell says that the decrease in satisfaction with the domestic brands is directly related to their truck and SUV-heavy lineups. Consumers have become fed up with high gas prices and therefore aren’t as satisfied with their large vehicles.
General Motors’ Chevrolet brand fell the furthest in the study – slipping by 3.7 percent – and actually ranked just behind Kia. The only brands ranked below Chevy in the survey were Chrysler’s Dodge and Jeep brands.
Despite the poor performance by Chevy, GM’s Buick was the highest ranked domestic brand, and the company’s Saturn division posted the biggest improvements. Coincidently, Saturn is GM’s most fuel-efficient brand.
Ford’s Lincoln and Mercury brands fared well – ranking above the industry average – but the Ford brand actually came in below the average.
Lexus, BMW, Toyota and Honda took the top four spots, respectively.
Regards,
OW
So how do we define LUXURY?
Quick search of "What is luxury" gives following answers:
1) Very comfortable surroundings...Genesis meets it Hyundai does not
2) Something excessively expensive: definitely not hyundai..May be Genesis is expensive FOR HYUNDAI..Hence a luxury
3) Something that shows wealth: Down for Hyundai (Genesis)
4) An object of desire, not need, by many: Not Hyundai..No value player here
5) Something that shows the world that you have made it: Hyundai..Definitely not
6) Lastly (acid test) how an attendent at a car parking place will treat a BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Hyundai?
In the end there are only two mass luxury MB & BMW, Lexus & Audi are almost there, Infiniti has a potential, in my opinion, to reach there, Acura . What should I say God bless Acura with the new guillotine designs.
If you spend 40K in our image-conscious world what would you rather buy?
- First a BMW then a basic 328
- First a Merc then a C class
- First Lexus then ES/GS
Or
- First a Hyundai then a Genesis
I believe genesis should have been a separate brand. Hope it will have better life then Mazda Millinia
Way back when, you and I (Dewey, Howard, and the gang) had many run-ins arguing back-and-forth on MB v Lexus v BMW. I quite understand the similarity Hyundai is going for here, but they are 15 years too late. Now, our auto knowledge and savvines is far advanced, and no gimmicky car can trick us, as the Genesis is designed for. I have to agree with OW with the claim that its more like the dying breeds in the Lincolns, Caddy and Buicks that the Genesis may target. Who wants to spend $40K on a Hyundai at this time? Would you rather not buy a BMW 3er, an A4 3.2 instead, or an IS350?
But, I give Hyundai props for stealing a page out of the Lexus history books. Doing to Lexus what the latter did to MB won't work in MY2009--> for the simple reason that the large V8 sedan class has changed, and in the 6-cylinder world, Bimmers, Mercs, Lexi and Audis rule the roost. No room for a Hyundai unless in the lower class.
Even Lexus never quite rose to the pinnacle of the head of the class that MB has ruled for the past 40+ years. And Lexus is no chop liver, with all the money, global brand and savviness of Toyota, and was never really able to dethrone MB from its lofty perch atop the marque brand name plate after 20 years go at it. Hyundai won't have that luxury (pardon the pun)....
Good start from Hyundai, wrong time... That's my pov...
More advertising should be expected, and I truly believe that compelling "value" has a solid place in today's economy, which hopefully hasn't destroyed the large sedan segment... which would be most unfortunate for the timing of the Genesis.
Yeah... The Genesis story has been and will continue to be an interesting story to watch unfold.
TM