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Brightness and Tagman please agree to disagree and leave this argument behind. You've been having it for months now.
At least with BMWCCA you can follow up and talk to someone. Have you ever spoken to a rebate worker in Young America?
At least, BMWCCA does not require the cutting off the VIN from the dashboard for proof like most consumer electronics rebates require of the barcode, leaving a gaping hole on the box. Would be funny though if they did ;-)
Let's also hope BMWCCA never disconnects their phone and moves to Young America! :surprise:
There is chatter that from one known Acura source that they are going to drop a 320-350hp version of the '08's Accord 3.5L V6 to compete with some of the other entrants V8 models. The 290hp V6 will become the base engine.
It is not known if they're going to call it the RL-S or Type-S.
But more importantly, there is even more talk of a price reduction. Whether this involves decontenting has yet to be ascertained.
Tweaks to the SH-AWD and improved interior and wheel choices round out the supposed changes.
One question though: Why? Why is it so hard for one of the leading companies in technology to build a legit RWD midsize? I wish they'd get it through their heads that if they build it, people will come.
Rumors have been floating that Audi will put 600-650hp in the engine bays of the babies, just enough to stave off M5's and E63's plus shutdown Cadillac's upcoming CTS-v which is rumored to have the Z06 engine or the new 600hp supercharged 6.2L.
Pricing was said to ring in the high 80's-lower 90's, to start of course.
I can't wait.
Either one will definitely work for me.
It's all about cost. Honda is really not a big company compare to Toyota, GM, Nissan and Ford. It is even smaller than Hyundai.
A RWD-biased SH-AWD platform will go a long way for Acura.
I have pretty much decided to follow your lead on the next car, and I think the lease idea makes alot of sense, as you then don`t have to get beaten to death on the resale of the old car....or at least you know it up front...If anything changes do let us know....Tony ps and in sufficient time to be able to follow---know you are a fast driver
Honda doesn't have any other car to part take in a V8 engine, nor any car to share a RWD platform with. It would be ironic if Honda finally gives up its philosophy of efficiency just when the market place moves to more efficient cars in an economic tightening. I wonder if there's anyway Honda could combine two I-4 blocks to make a V8, so they don't have to make a new foundry just for the V8 engine.
Alternatively, Honda could try some marketting tricks, like keep RL MSRP at $50-60k, but run incredible lease deals, like $4-500/mo, so that the consumers willing to give it a try are not actuallying paying much more than a TL or a 335i, and less than a 535ix. Considering how much of RL shares the Accord/TL platform, Honda may just be able to turn a profit on all those leases even at those low prices, and drasticly expand market acceptance at the same time.
If it's a V8 then I think RL's powertrain problem is solved. A detuned version of the NSX engine will be a great one for Acura's mid-level sedan. If it's indeed a V10 then Honda can do what BMW did to M5's engine: take out 2 cylinders and drop it into the M3, in Acura's case, the RL. I think either way the next RL is destined to receive a V8 (if not V10). Powertrain is really not a major concern for Acura, a good RWD or RWD-biased SH-AWD platform is.
And yet Honda will spend the money to develop a RWD platform for one car, the super low volume S2000. I don't understand that company sometimes.
They need something like Nissan's FM platform. A high performance, RWD based platform adaptable to AWD that they can use in a huge number of cars, just like Nissan does to amortize the development costs.
Acura did well when Infiniti had a few weak products, but now they are like Audi caught between BMW and Mercedes (in this market). They have to do better than gussied up Accords.
Today was close Tony. Should have kept in mind that the harrassers have to get rid of those last few August summons.
One brave enforcer out to protect the world from exhilarating drivers was right behind me in the left lane of a north Florida state road and I was doing 17 miles over the limit; but to my amazement and relief, he pulled away to my right and zoomed right past me! Couple of unusual speed traps on the interstate also coming back south to Casa Hpowders, again doing quite a bit over the posted limits. Must be a slow summer income-wise for the various counties. Yet they all let me pass! :confuse: Perhaps I am actually more than just a legend in my own mind?
"-know you are a fast driver."
I will know I am close to death Tony, when I finally slow down to just being a "fast driver."
I have been taking some extraordinary risks out there as I continue to push the 545i's envelope. I had quite an exhilarating day!
So thankful I leased a 545i. Absolutely in complete awe of this vehicle's extraordinary engineering, balance and agility. It has been a privilege.
I may reserve some harsh judgement until the car actually comes out simply because Acura does have a lot to lose if the car is a dud, as is the case currently.
320-350hp will serve it just fine and put it in the mid-five second range in performance. And if they tweak the SH to a more 60/40-70/30 torque split, then we may be talking a different talk.
Bullseye. You are correct about this. In fact, they have now set their sights well beyond the RL... a little too high, IMO, as this will show...
"We want to rival Bentley and Maybach in performance and design," Dave Marek, chief designer for Honda R&D Americas told industry trade publication Automotive News in an interview.
Here's a link: link title
Given Acura's history of designs and the materials that they've used in their interiors, I can't imagine that they are even capable of designing or building a car that would rival Bentley or Maybach... IMHO.
TagMan
But to do so, wouldn't that mean you'd have to build a true E/S, 5/7, and A6/A8 competitor first before trying world domination?
Acura had the same chances as Lexus did(in fact, Acura was here 4 years earlier), yet Lexus took off like a rocket and Acura stayed grounded.
True the two are different companies catering to different customers, slightly. Acura did have a cult following with the Integra, the orginal NSX was a major advancement not only in the upper sports car crowd but the industry as a whole and the TL is still a popular choice, but cars like the Vigor, Legend, TLX(what the heck were they thinking) and early TL's in the '90's stalled Acura to the point now they're starting to play catch-up. In the '90's for Lexus, the made sure every other home had an ES300 or LS400 in the yard by having product that people actually wanted to buy. And the '99 RX changed the rules forever.
Hopefully with the NSX's re-emergence, Acura can come to a consensus regarding the RL and TL and turning them into to legit RWD platforms with the RL having V8 options. I know the company builds high-tech V6's that run like 8s, but two extra cylinders for the bragging rights please?
I'll believe that when I see it. This is a company that uses plastic wood in their $50K "luxury" SUV, while others are using the real stuff in cars priced in the $30s. Acura still has zero design language. The RDX goes in one direction, the TSX and TL in another, and the MDX in yet another. Supposedly the next TL is going to have an MDX-like front end. If they think people are going to "come around" to the MDX's Transformers face as they have to Audi's big mouth look, I think they are mistaken. Both the advanced sports car and sedan concepts essentially bombed.
Acura may find themselves in big trouble in the next decade. The Germans are getting more and more reliable, while Acuras are getting less and less reliable. Hyundai is moving up into their "cut-price luxury alternative" space - with RWD and a V8. Infiniti went from being a threat to no one to one of the fiercest competitors in the entry and mid-luxury levels. The M is eating the RL for breakfast.
A Mercedes is conservative, elegant, and prestigious. A BMW is daring, risk taking, the drivers choice. An Audi has the best interior in its class, and the best AWD system in the business. A Lexus is quiet, comfortable, and reliable. An Infiniti is agressive, unapologetically brash, and powerful. What is an Acura? What does it look like? Who is it for? There are no real answers to those questions, and thats a very serious problem.
What it IS, and what they would like it to be are far apart.
It is fortunate for Acura that the MDX is a success.
Consider this problem...
Instead of Acura appearing to be a compelling upgrade from Honda... all too often Honda is seen as a better value compared to Acura. It's backwards. Lexus, on the other hand, is a compelling upscale leap from Toyota and it delivers that upgrade in spades.
TagMan
Apparently it wont use either the Volvo 3.2 I6 or the Ford 3.5 V6, just regular and supercharged versions of the AJ-V8 from the XK. Makes sense if Jag is leaving the Ford fold.
TagMan
What I do not like at all is the grill. Kind of an ugly Volvo grill but without the diagonal band in it.
Regards,
Jose
(Not posting much these days; I am touring within Europe because of my job)
"The HCCI engine has several advantages that help make it more efficient, said Grebe. It doesn't need spark plugs inside the combustion chamber since the fuel is ignited by pressure, and it burns all the fuel inside the chamber completely, which eliminates the need for extensive pollution controls, Grebe said. The low-temperature, flameless energy release in the combustion chamber also means the engine uses less fuel, according to Grebe.
When HCCI is combined with advanced technologies such as direct injection, electronic cam phasing, variable valve lift and cylinder pressure sensing, it can provides up to a 15-percent fuel savings, GM said. It is almost as efficient as a diesel engine but doesn't require the kind of extensive and expensive after-treatment of the exhaust necessary on diesel engines."
I wonder how long it will be before they bring it to market, and what are the main obstacles left.
However, here comes my nit picking...
1. What's up with the headlight? The big circle looks like an afterthought and does not flow with the car what-so-ever. Is it really that hard to just use the concept's headlight?
2. The dash looks clean, elegant and apparently it incorporated good quality materials. It just reminds my too much of the late 90's Lincoln Town Car, just doesn't match with its modern looking exterior.
3. Enough with the weird looking shifters already (Yes, you too BMW and MB). Give me either a stick and a clutch or a good looking gated shifter.
4. The rear door panel looks weird with that big piece of wood on it. I don't know how to describe it, something is just not right there.
Overall I like it and I think it'll do well sales wise.
Back end- Looks great. Remarkably no Bangle in there, good for them.
Interior- Can't say it does much for me personally. Partly looks like a 'driver's car' with the lack of fussiness in the details but then you get that ridiculous gear dial. How remarkably unsatisfying it must be to twist your car into gear with a little ex-Maytag oven dial. For goodness sake, put in a shifter.
INMO, this car certainly suggests the death of Jag as we know it. Looks like the birth of an over-priced Infiniti II. What a shame.
Yeah, I posted the same prediction of death. The recent Automotive News articles of the last three days have stated categorically that Jaguar depends upon this car to survive. If that is true, then Jaguar as we know it is dead... as usual, you and I agree. There is no way that the XF can or will single-handedly save the marque.
TagMan
The operative phrase being "as we know it." I think they're simply going in a different direction. The car certainly doesn't look like a traditional Jag, but when tradition fails, wouldn't you think it would be a good time to break from tradition? The front end is a little Kia-ish, but overall, I like it. Don't care for the twist dial shifter, though. How much is this thing gonna cost? Looks like it should be a 5-series, E-class competitor. It might very well save Jaguar by redefining it.
It might cost more than the 5 and the E from what I understand, at least at the base price level, because Jaguar is intent on having the XF well-equipped with a V-8 only, without lots of add-ons... unlike Mercedes and BMW, who leave tons of options to quickly boost the price.
If it's true that it's up to this XF model to save Jaguar, I think Jaguar can not be saved. Even beyond that, A new XJ would still be needed... the next XJ must be modernized and suddenly become an incredible flagship... how would that be possible considering the latest level of achievements of the S-Class and LS?
Things just get worse for Jaguar, and the numbers continue to prove it. I am clearly not optimistic regarding Jag's future.
TagMan
we now hear from Hyundai that the 4.6 liter V8 will produce 380 HP.
Here's the link:
link title
I continue to predict that this car will indeed be a success for Hyundai. I realize that the Doc is out of town to argue against me on this, but hopefully he will be back soon... It will be nice to hear his take on this, but he won't change my mind when it comes to the Genesis.
The Genesis is going to shake things up.
TagMan
This thing will be a success in comparo but so-so sales wise unless Hyundai starts a new luxury brand with it.
How's the Veracruz doing by the way?
link title
TagMan
This thing will be a success in comparo but so-so sales wise unless Hyundai starts a new luxury brand with it.
Good job... That's what the Doc would say.
How's the Veracruz doing by the way?
Last reports were that it was beating expectations.
We are approaching the end of August... we should see some recent hard numbers very soon.
TagMan
It seems to me though that Jag is redefining itself into a section of the market (appearance wise) that is already crowded. The snub nose has been done and the headlight assembly just looks out of sequence with the rest of the vehicle.
Redefintion is a tricky plan. If Jag redifines itself out of it's niche (lets say: understated luxury, long engine hood ((bonnet for those who believe in the English heritage)), light frame/bodywork to promote handling and the Leaper) and into a new area.... they risk the existing customers with no guarantee that they can garner new customers.
It is unlikely that this first edition will suddenly out-handle the 5-series. If it is priced above an E-class, who in their right mind would choose this? Competing with Infiniti seems like a fool's errand given that Infiniti is already bottom of the lux pack (excepting Acura). In summary, why choose this?
I agree with Brightness (!!?? ) that if this Jag can truly compete on value, it may be able to drive a wedge into the market. If not, it will be Acura RL-land.
This thing looks like a piece of....Nope I can't do it. This car is awesome!!! If it translates in the flesh I just might be interested.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The best interior so far by Hyundai IMO is the Veracruz's but too bad since it's just a rip off of the RX.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Save for the unique Aston rear end treatments, it's nothing special. From the Buick Lucerne-esque grille to the S80- like body proportions, it just doesn't seem to be that much of an advance over it's competitors.
This was the one time that Jag had to put a solid footing in the midsize lux category, and just like in 2000, it missed the mark.
I'm sure that it's an advance over the S-type, and it wouldn't take much at all to be , but I think that in 8 years, they could've brought a little more to the banquet.
The interior is a huge improvement over the S-Type, but again, no cigar over it's German and newly reguvenated Infiniti M competition.
Until I can see/drive in person, I'll reserve final judgement. But it ain't looling to pretty right now.
That's my understanding. For the U.S. market, only the 4.2 V8... normally aspirated XF, or turbo XF-R.
IIRC, European market will get other engine choices, including diesel.
TagMan
Here's the link which tells all about it:
link title
Spectacular job.
TagMan