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Comments

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Some personally directed posts have been removed.

    Brightness and Tagman please agree to disagree and leave this argument behind. You've been having it for months now.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm sure everybody gets the rebate who follows the simple rules spelled out by BMWCCA.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I sure hope so. It would be bad business to deny people $500-1000 rebates, as opposed to monkeying around with $50 rebates like Young America has gotten itself into. People may not bother with $50 rebates, but they certainly care about the bigger ones.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    LOL!! Is there really such a place as Young America? I don't know how many rebate forms I've sent there over the years. Heh! Heh!

    At least with BMWCCA you can follow up and talk to someone. Have you ever spoken to a rebate worker in Young America? ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    IIRC, Young America is such a huge organization that they run their own town called Young America . . . kinda scary for a rebate fulfillment company . . . how much money is in underwriting those things anyway.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I just know that about 10 years after my death, that $5.33 rebate check will be forwarded to my heirs from somewhere deep in Young America. ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    hahaha, I have that tendency too, of dragging my feet on filing rebates. I'm currently sitting on a $100 rebate for a monitor and a $250 one for a camcorder. It's just such a hassle to scan, copy and send certified letter on those things. The irony is that, us not filing them is what keeps those rebate nonsenses in business, and Young America rich :-( I have developed habit of sending in a 4x6 photo of all the items that I'm enclosing in the certified envelope, just to warn them not to mess with me. A lot of people are denied by Young America on claims of incomplete submission.

    At least, BMWCCA does not require the cutting off the VIN from the dashboard for proof like most consumer electronics rebates require of the barcode, leaving a gaping hole on the box. Would be funny though if they did ;-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That would be something-having to cut off the VIN as proof of purchase to get the rebate. I hope it never comes to that!

    Let's also hope BMWCCA never disconnects their phone and moves to Young America! :surprise:
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Acura is supposedly so upset over the RL's acceptance(or lack thereof) in the US, they are thinking of ways to rejuvenate the model lineup.

    There is chatter that from one known Acura source that they are going to drop a 320-350hp version of the '08's Accord 3.5L V6 to compete with some of the other entrants V8 models. The 290hp V6 will become the base engine.

    It is not known if they're going to call it the RL-S or Type-S.

    But more importantly, there is even more talk of a price reduction. Whether this involves decontenting has yet to be ascertained.

    Tweaks to the SH-AWD and improved interior and wheel choices round out the supposed changes.

    One question though: Why? Why is it so hard for one of the leading companies in technology to build a legit RWD midsize? I wish they'd get it through their heads that if they build it, people will come.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    The long-awaited RS6 is supposed to be released for NA shores in 2nd quarter '08.

    Rumors have been floating that Audi will put 600-650hp in the engine bays of the babies, just enough to stave off M5's and E63's plus shutdown Cadillac's upcoming CTS-v which is rumored to have the Z06 engine or the new 600hp supercharged 6.2L.

    Pricing was said to ring in the high 80's-lower 90's, to start of course.

    I can't wait. :)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Hopefully this is true, but MB was said to be hampering over the idea of sending over the vaunted S320 CDI or the V8 BLuetec, which happens to only get about 9% worse mileage.

    Either one will definitely work for me.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Why? Why is it so hard for one of the leading companies in technology to build a legit RWD midsize?

    It's all about cost. Honda is really not a big company compare to Toyota, GM, Nissan and Ford. It is even smaller than Hyundai.

    A RWD-biased SH-AWD platform will go a long way for Acura.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Hi H
    I have pretty much decided to follow your lead on the next car, and I think the lease idea makes alot of sense, as you then don`t have to get beaten to death on the resale of the old car....or at least you know it up front...If anything changes do let us know....Tony ps and in sufficient time to be able to follow---know you are a fast driver
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Yup, Honda is still a company run by engineers and fiscal discipline. In their eyes, if a V6 can put just as much power to the ground, and SH-AWD can deliver just as much fun to the driver, it must be just as good as any RWD V8; if they can accomplish all of that using Accord parts bin, it's all the better. What they are missing is that the same person agreeing along these practical lines of reasoning may well ask the question: what the heck do I spend $50-60k for a sedan for.

    Honda doesn't have any other car to part take in a V8 engine, nor any car to share a RWD platform with. It would be ironic if Honda finally gives up its philosophy of efficiency just when the market place moves to more efficient cars in an economic tightening. I wonder if there's anyway Honda could combine two I-4 blocks to make a V8, so they don't have to make a new foundry just for the V8 engine.

    Alternatively, Honda could try some marketting tricks, like keep RL MSRP at $50-60k, but run incredible lease deals, like $4-500/mo, so that the consumers willing to give it a try are not actuallying paying much more than a TL or a 335i, and less than a 535ix. Considering how much of RL shares the Accord/TL platform, Honda may just be able to turn a profit on all those leases even at those low prices, and drasticly expand market acceptance at the same time.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, rumor has it that the next NSX is going to have a V10 making 500+HP in it, others are saying it'll come with a V8. Either way, we know Honda is developing a V8 or V10 because there is NO WAY that the new NSX will have a V6.

    If it's a V8 then I think RL's powertrain problem is solved. A detuned version of the NSX engine will be a great one for Acura's mid-level sedan. If it's indeed a V10 then Honda can do what BMW did to M5's engine: take out 2 cylinders and drop it into the M3, in Acura's case, the RL. I think either way the next RL is destined to receive a V8 (if not V10). Powertrain is really not a major concern for Acura, a good RWD or RWD-biased SH-AWD platform is.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It's all about cost. Honda is really not a big company compare to Toyota, GM, Nissan and Ford. It is even smaller than Hyundai.

    And yet Honda will spend the money to develop a RWD platform for one car, the super low volume S2000. I don't understand that company sometimes.

    They need something like Nissan's FM platform. A high performance, RWD based platform adaptable to AWD that they can use in a huge number of cars, just like Nissan does to amortize the development costs.

    Acura did well when Infiniti had a few weak products, but now they are like Audi caught between BMW and Mercedes (in this market). They have to do better than gussied up Accords.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    For me, two year BMW leases will be the way to go. Nice to get a rebate every two years along with no out of pocket maintenance. A new BMW every two years sounds great to me.

    Today was close Tony. Should have kept in mind that the harrassers have to get rid of those last few August summons.

    One brave enforcer out to protect the world from exhilarating drivers was right behind me in the left lane of a north Florida state road and I was doing 17 miles over the limit; but to my amazement and relief, he pulled away to my right and zoomed right past me! Couple of unusual speed traps on the interstate also coming back south to Casa Hpowders, again doing quite a bit over the posted limits. Must be a slow summer income-wise for the various counties. Yet they all let me pass! :confuse: Perhaps I am actually more than just a legend in my own mind? :blush:

    "-know you are a fast driver."

    I will know I am close to death Tony, when I finally slow down to just being a "fast driver."
    I have been taking some extraordinary risks out there as I continue to push the 545i's envelope. I had quite an exhilarating day! :)

    So thankful I leased a 545i. Absolutely in complete awe of this vehicle's extraordinary engineering, balance and agility. It has been a privilege.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Very well put replys from the both of you.

    I may reserve some harsh judgement until the car actually comes out simply because Acura does have a lot to lose if the car is a dud, as is the case currently.

    320-350hp will serve it just fine and put it in the mid-five second range in performance. And if they tweak the SH to a more 60/40-70/30 torque split, then we may be talking a different talk.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Acura is supposedly so upset over the RL's acceptance(or lack thereof) in the US, they are thinking of ways to rejuvenate the model lineup.

    Bullseye. You are correct about this. In fact, they have now set their sights well beyond the RL... a little too high, IMO, as this will show...

    "We want to rival Bentley and Maybach in performance and design," Dave Marek, chief designer for Honda R&D Americas told industry trade publication Automotive News in an interview.

    Here's a link: link title

    Given Acura's history of designs and the materials that they've used in their interiors, I can't imagine that they are even capable of designing or building a car that would rival Bentley or Maybach... IMHO.

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    "We want to rival Bentley and Mayvbach in performance and design..."

    But to do so, wouldn't that mean you'd have to build a true E/S, 5/7, and A6/A8 competitor first before trying world domination?

    Acura had the same chances as Lexus did(in fact, Acura was here 4 years earlier), yet Lexus took off like a rocket and Acura stayed grounded.

    True the two are different companies catering to different customers, slightly. Acura did have a cult following with the Integra, the orginal NSX was a major advancement not only in the upper sports car crowd but the industry as a whole and the TL is still a popular choice, but cars like the Vigor, Legend, TLX(what the heck were they thinking) and early TL's in the '90's stalled Acura to the point now they're starting to play catch-up. In the '90's for Lexus, the made sure every other home had an ES300 or LS400 in the yard by having product that people actually wanted to buy. And the '99 RX changed the rules forever.

    Hopefully with the NSX's re-emergence, Acura can come to a consensus regarding the RL and TL and turning them into to legit RWD platforms with the RL having V8 options. I know the company builds high-tech V6's that run like 8s, but two extra cylinders for the bragging rights please?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "We want to rival Bentley and Maybach in performance and design," Dave Marek, chief designer for Honda R&D Americas told industry trade publication Automotive News in an interview.

    I'll believe that when I see it. This is a company that uses plastic wood in their $50K "luxury" SUV, while others are using the real stuff in cars priced in the $30s. Acura still has zero design language. The RDX goes in one direction, the TSX and TL in another, and the MDX in yet another. Supposedly the next TL is going to have an MDX-like front end. If they think people are going to "come around" to the MDX's Transformers face as they have to Audi's big mouth look, I think they are mistaken. Both the advanced sports car and sedan concepts essentially bombed.

    Acura may find themselves in big trouble in the next decade. The Germans are getting more and more reliable, while Acuras are getting less and less reliable. Hyundai is moving up into their "cut-price luxury alternative" space - with RWD and a V8. Infiniti went from being a threat to no one to one of the fiercest competitors in the entry and mid-luxury levels. The M is eating the RL for breakfast.

    A Mercedes is conservative, elegant, and prestigious. A BMW is daring, risk taking, the drivers choice. An Audi has the best interior in its class, and the best AWD system in the business. A Lexus is quiet, comfortable, and reliable. An Infiniti is agressive, unapologetically brash, and powerful. What is an Acura? What does it look like? Who is it for? There are no real answers to those questions, and thats a very serious problem.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Agree. Very strange goal indeed for Acura, a brand known for light and agile machines. Why would they want to build anything that "rivals" a portly 5500lbs behemoth? Thank goodness a quick search on David Marek reveals that he is pretty much a design artist, not really a car person. I guess, his concept of "performance and design" means flowing curves and lines that suggest "performance," not real physical performance that we talk about.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Wow! I did not know that. It's very exciting potential development indeed.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    What is an Acura?

    What it IS, and what they would like it to be are far apart.

    It is fortunate for Acura that the MDX is a success.

    Consider this problem...

    Instead of Acura appearing to be a compelling upgrade from Honda... all too often Honda is seen as a better value compared to Acura. It's backwards. Lexus, on the other hand, is a compelling upscale leap from Toyota and it delivers that upgrade in spades.

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm very interested to hear what the regulars think about the production XF. The front end is a bit generic and bland, but I like the Aston cues at the rear. The interior seems to draw a lot of inspiration from the Volvo S80. The new shifter is a better alternative to the 7 series' stubby column shifter, but its still a bit weird.

    Apparently it wont use either the Volvo 3.2 I6 or the Ford 3.5 V6, just regular and supercharged versions of the AJ-V8 from the XK. Makes sense if Jag is leaving the Ford fold.

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  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    LG - I think this car is tasteful, but not over the top enough to save Jag. While I truly love Jaguar, I must be honest here... and from my perspective, it's curtains for Jag.

    TagMan
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    The design truly parts from the Jaguar design of recent or past times. Although I feel it could be appealing in vivo, this design shows many borrowings from other brands, it is no more exclusive of a Jaguar.

    What I do not like at all is the grill. Kind of an ugly Volvo grill but without the diagonal band in it.

    Regards,
    Jose
    (Not posting much these days; I am touring within Europe because of my job)
  • britcrlvrbritcrlvr Member Posts: 83
    the final product looks nothing like what it looked like prior to this, before the front end looked aggressive, not it looks almost pugnosed, the rear looks better. As on the old S type the rear looked ugly and the front looked okay, the reverse can be said for this. this is a travesty
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Agree with the others; seeems quite a departure from the traditional Jag profile of three-box long-and-low-hood design. It's getting a lot chunkier than past Jags . . . becoming more like, well, the other brands. For some odd reason, the front keeps saying Chrysler Sebring to me :-( The trasmission dial is an interesting new evolvement; wonder if it could fit right under the cat face in the middle of steering . . . then more cup holders would be available on the center console :-) A space for the phone and organizer would be nice so it doesn't have to stay in the pant pocket; the front door grip looks like a handle bar without being able to function as a small pocket for that purpose (I could be wrong on the last one).
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/GM_Engine_Tech_15_Perce- - nt_Better.S196.A13284.html

    "The HCCI engine has several advantages that help make it more efficient, said Grebe. It doesn't need spark plugs inside the combustion chamber since the fuel is ignited by pressure, and it burns all the fuel inside the chamber completely, which eliminates the need for extensive pollution controls, Grebe said. The low-temperature, flameless energy release in the combustion chamber also means the engine uses less fuel, according to Grebe.

    When HCCI is combined with advanced technologies such as direct injection, electronic cam phasing, variable valve lift and cylinder pressure sensing, it can provides up to a 15-percent fuel savings, GM said. It is almost as efficient as a diesel engine but doesn't require the kind of extensive and expensive after-treatment of the exhaust necessary on diesel engines."

    I wonder how long it will be before they bring it to market, and what are the main obstacles left.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Generally speaking I like the way XF looks, the low roof profile gives it a 4-door coupe kind of feel and like others have said, the Aston Martin rear touch is very good. Also, some would say the wheels look a little bit bland but the 5-spoke looks great with the car, it doesn't scream out bling-bling but looks very elegant.

    However, here comes my nit picking...

    1. What's up with the headlight? The big circle looks like an afterthought and does not flow with the car what-so-ever. Is it really that hard to just use the concept's headlight?

    2. The dash looks clean, elegant and apparently it incorporated good quality materials. It just reminds my too much of the late 90's Lincoln Town Car, just doesn't match with its modern looking exterior.

    3. Enough with the weird looking shifters already (Yes, you too BMW and MB). Give me either a stick and a clutch or a good looking gated shifter.

    4. The rear door panel looks weird with that big piece of wood on it. I don't know how to describe it, something is just not right there.

    Overall I like it and I think it'll do well sales wise.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    Front end- come on now. That looks like an Infiniti or an Altima. The obliquely angled nose and side front panels may be somewhat forced on Jag by regulations on pedestrian crash-worthiness but it just does not look like a Jag.
    Back end- Looks great. Remarkably no Bangle in there, good for them.
    Interior- Can't say it does much for me personally. Partly looks like a 'driver's car' with the lack of fussiness in the details but then you get that ridiculous gear dial. How remarkably unsatisfying it must be to twist your car into gear with a little ex-Maytag oven dial. For goodness sake, put in a shifter.

    INMO, this car certainly suggests the death of Jag as we know it. Looks like the birth of an over-priced Infiniti II. What a shame.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    INMO, this car certainly suggests the death of Jag as we know it.

    Yeah, I posted the same prediction of death. The recent Automotive News articles of the last three days have stated categorically that Jaguar depends upon this car to survive. If that is true, then Jaguar as we know it is dead... as usual, you and I agree. There is no way that the XF can or will single-handedly save the marque. :cry:

    TagMan
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... Jaguar as we know it is dead...

    The operative phrase being "as we know it." I think they're simply going in a different direction. The car certainly doesn't look like a traditional Jag, but when tradition fails, wouldn't you think it would be a good time to break from tradition? The front end is a little Kia-ish, but overall, I like it. Don't care for the twist dial shifter, though. How much is this thing gonna cost? Looks like it should be a 5-series, E-class competitor. It might very well save Jaguar by redefining it. :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    How much is this thing gonna cost?

    It might cost more than the 5 and the E from what I understand, at least at the base price level, because Jaguar is intent on having the XF well-equipped with a V-8 only, without lots of add-ons... unlike Mercedes and BMW, who leave tons of options to quickly boost the price.

    If it's true that it's up to this XF model to save Jaguar, I think Jaguar can not be saved. Even beyond that, A new XJ would still be needed... the next XJ must be modernized and suddenly become an incredible flagship... how would that be possible considering the latest level of achievements of the S-Class and LS?

    Things just get worse for Jaguar, and the numbers continue to prove it. I am clearly not optimistic regarding Jag's future.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Yeah, a lot of redefining is required to make the marque profitable. Jaguar simply can not continue as a big time money loser anymore, because Ford is running short on money. A lot of XF's sucess or failure will also depend on pricing. Depending on how far Ford can leverage the parts bin with Lincoln, the base XF can potentially be made available at pretty low price, with the R version carrying the banner at the top. Pricing is always important. The best selling 5 ane E are the 6-cyl versions by far, not the v8 or the M/AMG versions. If it can take up on volume Jaguar may yet be saved; we shall see.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    From the original announcement of a 300 HP V8...
    we now hear from Hyundai that the 4.6 liter V8 will produce 380 HP.

    image

    Here's the link:

    link title

    I continue to predict that this car will indeed be a success for Hyundai. I realize that the Doc is out of town to argue against me on this, but hopefully he will be back soon... It will be nice to hear his take on this, but he won't change my mind when it comes to the Genesis.

    The Genesis is going to shake things up.

    TagMan
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I'll take over Doc's place regarding the Genesis...

    This thing will be a success in comparo but so-so sales wise unless Hyundai starts a new luxury brand with it.

    How's the Veracruz doing by the way?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This latest news report leaves me concerned. There are those that think this would be a marriage made in heaven, but I personally hate the idea with a passion.

    link title

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'll take over Doc's place regarding the Genesis...

    This thing will be a success in comparo but so-so sales wise unless Hyundai starts a new luxury brand with it.


    Good job... That's what the Doc would say. ;)

    How's the Veracruz doing by the way?

    Last reports were that it was beating expectations.

    We are approaching the end of August... we should see some recent hard numbers very soon.

    TagMan
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    I agree it is a redefinition.

    It seems to me though that Jag is redefining itself into a section of the market (appearance wise) that is already crowded. The snub nose has been done and the headlight assembly just looks out of sequence with the rest of the vehicle.
    Redefintion is a tricky plan. If Jag redifines itself out of it's niche (lets say: understated luxury, long engine hood ((bonnet for those who believe in the English heritage)), light frame/bodywork to promote handling and the Leaper) and into a new area.... they risk the existing customers with no guarantee that they can garner new customers.
    It is unlikely that this first edition will suddenly out-handle the 5-series. If it is priced above an E-class, who in their right mind would choose this? Competing with Infiniti seems like a fool's errand given that Infiniti is already bottom of the lux pack (excepting Acura). In summary, why choose this?

    I agree with Brightness (!!?? :) ) that if this Jag can truly compete on value, it may be able to drive a wedge into the market. If not, it will be Acura RL-land.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You get the XF lights. Not good, Jag.

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  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I'll help fill in for Doc also.

    This thing looks like a piece of....Nope I can't do it. This car is awesome!!! If it translates in the flesh I just might be interested.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Now that Jaguar isn't hamstrung by Ford's contract with Alpine, they are free to put a serious sound system in the XF. The top level system is made by Bowers & Wilkins, England's premier high-end brand. It should easily be a match for Lexus\ML and Audi\B&O.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Also, after seeing the spy shots for the Genesis interior, my excitement for this car has cooled down somewhat. It looks like a hybrid between the M and 5-series. Since I am not a fan of either (prefer M's over 5er's though) I like the hybrid version even less.

    The best interior so far by Hyundai IMO is the Veracruz's but too bad since it's just a rip off of the RX.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I don't think the interior shots we have seen will be the final interior. I hope not. The Azera has a horrible interior. I hope Hyundai steps up to the plate and does it right.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    If going by these pictures is the sole indicator, then I'm going to have to vote no on the outcome of the XF.

    Save for the unique Aston rear end treatments, it's nothing special. From the Buick Lucerne-esque grille to the S80- like body proportions, it just doesn't seem to be that much of an advance over it's competitors.

    This was the one time that Jag had to put a solid footing in the midsize lux category, and just like in 2000, it missed the mark.

    I'm sure that it's an advance over the S-type, and it wouldn't take much at all to be , but I think that in 8 years, they could've brought a little more to the banquet.

    The interior is a huge improvement over the S-Type, but again, no cigar over it's German and newly reguvenated Infiniti M competition.

    Until I can see/drive in person, I'll reserve final judgement. But it ain't looling to pretty right now.
  • tgkoenigseggtgkoenigsegg Member Posts: 52
    Will they offer all wheel drive? And there should be an XF-R if the 400 hp 4.2 L V8 isn't it already.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And there should be an XF-R if the 400 hp 4.2 L V8 isn't it already.

    That's my understanding. For the U.S. market, only the 4.2 V8... normally aspirated XF, or turbo XF-R.

    IIRC, European market will get other engine choices, including diesel.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This is truly nice work from Brabus, IMO.

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    Here's the link which tells all about it:

    link title

    Spectacular job. :)

    TagMan
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