Luxury Lounge

esf · January 2008

A8: Audi is always conservative on its exterior designs so along with the signature roofline, new models don't look all that different from the old ones.

And it's timeless. The great thing is, the A8 still looks beautiful. I saw a 2008 in a glossy black the other day, and I had to stare. Quite nice. The 2005 looks almost as nice, although I would go with the 2006 instead because the big grille makes it look more "complete."

Andover could probably get the 2006 A8 for the price of (or less than) the 2005 S500.

Jag: When's the last time the XJ got a major redesign?

It will... very soon. Ever seen an XF? Callum is probably working on it as we write this.

'08 BMW X5 4.8i  '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet

esf · January 2008

Beautiful...

Here's mine:

It's no 300SEL in terms of spec, but the 500K was automotive beauty at its height. I adore that car. It's truly something else.

Mercedes-Benz probably has more classics than any other company. I look forward to seeing our current favorites in the museums of the future... CL, anyone?

'08 BMW X5 4.8i  '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet

houdini1 · January 2008

Tag, you are hilarious. Who was the guy that was always going around pointing out the obvious. I think they called him the master of the obvious. Of course there are currently no classic Lexus autos. Just like there were no classic MBs back in 1910! Duh!

tagman · January 2008

I think you have misunderstood my post, and Lexusguy's post #9715, where he stated "The LS will never be a classic".

I was not clear enough. Perhaps I should have stated it this way... "There are no Lexus cars destined to be classics".

I hope that is clearer. My apologies.

TagMan

esf · January 2008

As long as we're talking about Mercedes classic cars, here's the skinny on the new SL...

link title

I'll be blunt: when I first saw it, I was horrified.

It's certainly growing on me, though. What do you guys think?

'08 BMW X5 4.8i  '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet

tagman · January 2008

It's certainly growing on me, though. What do you guys think?

I always love the SL... in spite of itself.

First impression is that the front end is weak and lacks the strong statement the car needs. Your first pic of the front end demonstrates that lack of strength. The single cross bar just doesn't cut it somehow. And, I don't like the new shape of the lights. But, I will probably warm up to it also. Overall, looking at your second pic, however, the car is beautiful, IMO.

Also, I agree with LG's post recently that the new design does a better job of distinguishing the SL's front end from the CLK.

TagMan

houdini1 · January 2008

It's not a bad looking car. It's just that MB is so out of step with their products right now. They have made some beautiful cars in the past but now they have become a caricature of themselves.

Would you really want to own and drive this car?

houdini1 · January 2008

"There are no Lexus cars destined to be classics".

There will never again be any classic cars as beautiful as the ones of the 30's and 40's. But I would challenge you to name a car that has had more impact in the U.S. in the last 15 years that the Lexus LS.

If it is not there already, someday the 1989 LS will sit proudly in the Smithsonian!

tagman · January 2008

I would challenge you to name a car that has had more impact in the U.S. in the last 15 years that the Lexus LS.

Actually, I'd have to say the Bangled BMW has had more impact, and most certainly the Prius has shaken the industry by its very roots.

If it is not there already, someday the 1989 LS will sit proudly in the Smithsonian!

Again, the Prius (or even the Honda Insight) would be there before the LS for obvious reasons.

I don't want to start another round of this, but the LS isn't any big deal. Sure it's a nice car, but so what? The Ford F150 is a bigger seller... does that give it a right to a place in the Smithsonian?

You must be pulling my leg! :surprise:

TagMan

jlbl · January 2008

In agreement to what Esf posted, M-B 500K is a Top Classic indeed. As I had not 500 K to buy and entertain one of them, I bought some years ago a Franklin Mint reproduction instead. Red color :shades:

The new M-B SL is well it may be, may be that it will grow on me. Now I am even learning to like the flanks and rear end views of the M-B SLK McLaren! :confuse:

Regards,
Jose

jimbres · January 2008

I'll admit it: I'm a pretty shallow guy, & the S has a certain stylish arrogance about it that really appeals to me.

So when my next reunion rolls around (& if I'm still alive -- I'm almost as old as you are), I wanna roll up in either a new S or an immaculately restored '78 Pacer. Won't those cheerleaders wish they'd gone out with me when they had the chance!

houdini1 · January 2008

The F-150, Prius, and Insight are all important vehicles but not in the same class as the LS. This particular forum has LUXURY in the title. In addition, you are getting your time lines confused here. The F-150 has been around forever and the other two were 10/15 years or so later on the scene than the LS.

I agree that the bangled rear end should be in the Smithsonian. Quite an innovation. Almost as important (laughable) as the tail fins of the 60's.

bmlexus · January 2008

1 thing is sure,lexus classic of the future or not, it has made the biggest impact as the newest luxury company over the years.

Who would have thought when lexus was launched it would be competing against luxury cars like mercedes and bmw which are much more recognized all over the world,but still lexus managed to make it's own place.

houdini1 · January 2008

Bingo! But many around here find that hard to swallow!

tagman · January 2008

I'll admit it: I'm a pretty shallow guy, & the S has a certain stylish arrogance about it that really appeals to me.

Liking an S-Class doesn't make you shallow any more than liking any other Luxury car, whether it's a BMW or Lexus or Audi. Certainly different cars make different impressions at a class reunion, but if you are really shallow that's one thing, and perhaps you are not... but either way, the car doesn't make the person.

TagMan

tagman · January 2008

Who would have thought when lexus was launched it would be competing against luxury cars like mercedes and bmw which are much more recognized all over the world,but still lexus managed to make it's own place.

bmlexus,
Be clear that you can check the archives and read my repsect for the Lexus LS... more respect than many are willing to give it.

I understand the success story of Lexus, as there is no denial from me, and I praise the car for it's merits. But what I won't do is give it credit where it isn't due, and I will feel free to have an opinion about the Lexus that might be a little critical from time to time. I also recently criticized Mercedes for some of their styling on certain models, like the R-Class and even the former S-Class.

No one got offended when I criticized Mercedes that way. But just as soon as I mentioned that Lexus vehicles are unlikely to become classics... holy smokes!!... immediate over-reaction. :confuse:

This forum will have posts that praise cars as well as criticize them, positvely and negatively.

I want to be sure that I am not misquoted or misrepresented in any way. I have given the highest respect for the Lexus success story. That does not mean that I have to like the cars, nor does it mean that just because they are not likely to become classics that I have somehow misaligned Lexus in any way.

It's important to me and I believe the integrity of this forum that the views of everyone are respected.

You can read my posts with regards to Lexus and the LS, and you will find that I respect the vehicle for many of its attributes, yet also find it disappointing in some ways as well... just as I do with most of the cars of all brands. I have yet to find a perfect car or perfect marque.

I hope that is clear for you, as I do not want to be misrepresented here on this forum by other posters comments. I will let the posts speak for themselves, and I do stand by my opinion that with all due respect for Lexus, I do not see a classic-in-the-making as yet from them.

TagMan

lexusguy · January 2008

It's no 300SEL in terms of spec, but the 500K was automotive beauty at its height. I adore that car. It's truly something else.

The Benz 540K made just before the start of the war is easily my favorite Benz of all time. What an absolutely gorgeous car. In the '60s though M-B design had nothing on Jag, Aston, or Ferrari.

lexusguy · January 2008

I'll be blunt: when I first saw it, I was horrified.

It's certainly growing on me, though. What do you guys think?

None for me, thanks. Those blob-like headlights look like something out of the Hyundai or Nissan play book. The interior is the same as it was in '03, just with a C-class steering wheel. Maser GT or XKR over this hands down.

louiswei · January 2008

there aren't any Lexus classic cars

Of course there aren't, the company has only existed for less than 20 years.

while Mercedes vehicles, on the other hand, have often become classics

Most companies with long history are likely to have few "classics" and that also includes the none luxury brands like Chevy, Honda, Nissan and Toyota.

Try to name a MB after 1990 that can be called a classic today. If you can then the first ever LS400 should be categorized as a classic as well.

houdini1 · January 2008

misaligned

LOL! Is that a "Bushism"?

dewey · January 2008

Mercedes-Benz probably has more classics than any other company

Couldn't agree more.

lexusguy · January 2008

Actually, I'd have to say the Bangled BMW has had more impact, and most certainly the Prius has shaken the industry by its very roots.

I would probably have to agree with you there. The first LS did what? It copied the S-class of the time, just at a much lower price point. It didn't start the "new wave of Japanese luxury", the Legend gets that one. It may have given M-B something to think about, but that's as far as I would go. A "total game changer"? Not really. The first LS may be a very important milestone for Lexus, but not for the entire motor industry.

The 2002 BMW 7 changed the game a lot more than the LS ever has, not just with its rear, but with iDrive as well. How many brands are using some sort of control knob now?

louiswei · January 2008

read my respect for the Lexus LS

And we also read a lot of bashing from you for the Lexus LS...

Make up your mind!

I won't do is give it credit where it isn't due

And you shouldn't, but at least try to give it credit WHEN IT IS DUE. Like houdini said, try to name a luxury car that had a bigger impact to the luxury market (that's the topic here right?) in the last 20 years than the LS400. Maybe it's not a classic in your eyes but who are you to suggest that it shouldn't be a classic?

No one got offended when I criticized Mercedes that way

Because you criticized Mercedes based on "facts" (for example, the R-class) but right now you are criticizing Lexus based on your personal opinion. People here are not over reacting, we just have a different point of view that's all.

This forum will have posts that praise cars as well as criticize them, positively and negatively.

Since that's the case then don't complain about a few posts that praises cars you don't like. Fair? Last I checked this is still a free country so you are free to criticize Lexus and praise BMW, Porsche and Audi. I, on the other hand, should also be free to criticize Audi and praise Lexus. It's all for a good debate like you have stated before.

It's important to me and I believe the integrity of this forum that the views of everyone are respected.

Good, and let's keep it that way. Maybe next time when some other members in this forum whose views got disrespected I hope to see the same comment like this from you.

with all due respect for Lexus, I do not see a classic-in-the-making as yet from them.

I respect your opinion but I still have to say that I think maybe the LS400 will one day to be seen as a classic. LF-A on the other hand will definitely become a instant classic once Lexus approves it for production.

:shades:

dewey · January 2008

Like houdini said, try to name a luxury car that had a bigger impact to the luxury market (that's the topic here right?) in the last 20 years than the LS400.

As recently posted by Lexusguy the BMW 7 Series has had the biggest impact without question. Styling in this segment has become Bangleized ever since the 7 Series Introduction ( S Class, Lexus LS and a variety of mid tier Luxury and even mainstream cars have become Bangleized).

In fact the Hyundai Genesis if sucessful will have the biggest impact because this will be the first time that top end luxury is introduced at a low price by a mainstream brand like Hyundai. No other car company is bold enough to do such a thing(VW Phaeton was no low priced car).

louiswei · January 2008

Since we currently have two camps here arguing about which one has the most impact on the luxury market between the 7-series and LS400 let's see what others say:

(luxury cars are in bold font)

1. 1992 Toyota Camry
2. 1991 Ford Explorer
3. 2001 Toyota Prius
4. 1984 Chrysler minivans
5. 1986 Hyundai Excel
6. 1986 Ford Taurus
7. 1990 Lexus LS400
8. 1990 Mazda Miata
9. 1986 Acura Legend
10. 1996 Toyota RAV4
11. 1994 Ford Mustang
12. 1991 Saturn SL
13. 1997 Ford F-150
14. 2003 Hummer H2
15. 2002 Mini Cooper
16. 1998 Lincoln Navigator
17. 1986 Yugo (GV)
18. 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
19. 2001 Pontiac Aztek
20. 2003 Cadillac CTS
21. 1986 Suzuki Samurai
22. (1994) GM Impact
23. 1998 Volkswagen New Beetle
24. 2005 Scion xB
25. 2002 BMW 7 Series

Source: Autoblog

pat · January 2008

Dewey and esf, you have GOT to stop posting pictures that are too wide. I'm sorry to call you out, but you both keep doing it over and over and every time you do it, you make the entire page unreadable and unmanageable for everyone.

Try using the height and width paramenters with your image display (e.g., height="312" width="444"), or you can post it on your CarSpace page and use the automatically generated text to do it for you.

Or you can just post a link to it instead of displaying it, and this is an excellent option if you are not sure.

It's not just a matter of putting it up and waiting for Pat to come along and delete it; it creates huge problems for everyone until I happen to come by. We all really need for you to be more considerate of all us.

Thanks.

louiswei · January 2008

Style-wise I'll agree that the 2002 7-series had indeed the most impact. To the whole auto industry and particularly the luxury segment I would maintain that the 1990 LS400 had a bigger impact.

dewey · January 2008

1 thing is sure,lexus classic of the future or not, it has made the biggest impact as the newest luxury company over the years.

Lexus impact has been significant in the USA without a doubt. But its impact has been mute beyond the borders of USA (except South Korea).

If you want to talk about having a big impact on the performance segment of the auto industry in a very short time then look no further than BMW:

Early 1960's BMW

BMW Isetta

Early 1970's BMW

The Bavarian

The 2002

tagman · January 2008

Bashing, Lou?

I don't think so. Even on the Lexus forum, I've been told that my posts are fair regarding the Lexus. You can check that out as well. I'm comfortable with my respect for the Lexus vehicles, especially considering that I don't think their styling is anything to get the adrenaline rushing.

When the LF-A comes out, I'll sing a different song, as it will likely be the first Lexus I could ever really get excited about. I can hardly wait. Will I put a deposit down on one? Or should it be the Audi R8 TDI? What do you think? LOL!

TagMan

dewey · January 2008

As BMW raced toward luxury performance these past few decades it is now running towards the oppoiste direction with its upcoming Isetta.

History does not repeat. But sometimes history may end up running backwards.

BMW Today

BMW of the Future

The hybrid Isetta

dewey · January 2008

height="312" width="444"),

Thanks now at least I can measure my pictures with a ruler before posting them.

pat · January 2008

Do you have a ruler that measures in pixels?

Really, this is not a joke. The problem is that a too-wide picture wrecks each message on the entire page for everyone, those we post and those we try to read. I really need all of you to be considerate of that fact and I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Thanks to everyone for your cooperation!

dewey · January 2008

Do you have a ruler that measures in pixels?

No but I can always buy one from Office Depot.

Just kidding.

I do know that I can find that info in the properties dialog box

Thanks for the measurements I will remember them next time.

pat · January 2008

Might re-read my post. I've taken a cue from you (and a few other members!) and edited the hell out of what I orginally posted. :P :shades:

houdini1 · January 2008

Though new to the U.S., this car has been around for a while in Europe. In 2006 Edmund's compared the 1 series with the MB A class and the Audi A3. The 1 Series didn't do so well.

Their final thoughts on the 1 Series:

"Seriously compromised and totally irrelevant".

This may seem a little harsh but at least it is Edmund's opinion and not necessarily mine. Gosh, I sure hope no one takes offense.

tagman · January 2008

Gosh, I sure hope no one takes offense.

Especially the good TagMan, who happens to have one on order.

Your post is ridiculous, and I'll prove it.

The "concensus" of reviewers is what I go by, as I have posted MANY times. And ultimately, when it comes time to purchase, I make up my own mind, as that's the one that counts, where the wallet is concerned.

With regards to the 1-Series, it has received quite a few of the highest ratings any car could possibly achieve. Overall, I have absolutely no doubt as to the car's merits, and am excited to be getting one so soon. The 135i and the European 1-Series are not the same, as Clarkson has pointed out. The history of his reviews are not quite as favorable to the original hatchback, but the 135i with the ICE twin-turbo has received his highest rating, and his summary is that it is the best BMW made. (I think some of the others are as good, however.)

Read Automobile magazine, as well and others. There is absolutely no doubt about the 1-Series in its 135i form,

I expect I will love it and want to keep it for a long time. If for some reason I do not, I will simply sell it and get the "next best thing". No big deal.

BTW, thanks for the dig... Why am I not...:surprise: ?

Here's the proof I promised... Your own post is "seriously compromised and totally irrelevant". Here's the truth...

Here is the actual up-to-date link to the Edmunds page on the current BMW 1-Series... This is what the page really says about the CURRENT 1-Series... Everyone can see for themselves.

Edmunds.com is currently in the process of reviewing the 2008 BMW 1 Series. Please check back later for more up-to-date information.
There are no Consumer Reviews for 2008 BMW 1 Series

link title

How's THAT for a reality check?

TagMan

tagman · January 2008

Again, CLASSIC cars from a German automaker. Very nice pics... I envy the lucky owner of that 2002.

Hopefully, the "year one of the 1" will be as important.

TagMan

houdini1 · January 2008

Are you through editing now?

I believe I said that this was a two year old review of the European 1 series did I not? Basically the same car by the way.

Gosh, what is your problem? Put those weapons down! Sorry if you were offended! I certainly did not mean for you to wig out! Wow, one little jab and you go off the deep end! Where is your sense of humor? :shades:

tagman · January 2008

Where is your sense of humor?

LOL!!

Right here where it always is!!

:shades:

TM

tagman · January 2008

one little jab

When I mentioned the Lexus vehicles are not destined to be classics, I was very surpised to see such an outburst.

At least when you posted your admitted "jab" about the 1-Series, instead of getting besides myself, like you and louiswei did, I was quite able to supply lots of information that disagreed with you post. Can you supply ANY information from reputable sources that suggests the LS will somehow become a classic instead of just getting all wigged out and offended? I'm certainly willing to be open-minded here.

TagMan

louiswei · January 2008

Where is your sense of humor?

Isn't it funny that humor is a one way street?

:P

louiswei · January 2008

I am not sure LS being a classic or will it ever be but at least USA Today agrees with me that the LS400 has more impact in the last 20 years than the 2002 7-series as far as luxury car goes:

1. 1992 Toyota Camry
2. 1991 Ford Explorer
3. 2001 Toyota Prius
4. 1984 Chrysler minivans
5. 1986 Hyundai Excel
6. 1986 Ford Taurus
7. 1990 Lexus LS400
8. 1990 Mazda Miata
9. 1986 Acura Legend
10. 1996 Toyota RAV4
11. 1994 Ford Mustang
12. 1991 Saturn SL
13. 1997 Ford F-150
14. 2003 Hummer H2
15. 2002 Mini Cooper
16. 1998 Lincoln Navigator
17. 1986 Yugo (GV)
18. 2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
19. 2001 Pontiac Aztek
20. 2003 Cadillac CTS
21. 1986 Suzuki Samurai
22. (1994) GM Impact
23. 1998 Volkswagen New Beetle
24. 2005 Scion xB
25. 2002 BMW 7 Series

Source: USA Today lists the 25 cars with the most 'impact'

tagman · January 2008

This shouldn't come as a surprise, but it's exciting to see the direction for the future of diesels... even more than anticipated. Add the R8 TDI to this and it becomes apparent that the diesel will play a terrific role in performance along with fuel efficiency, something the hybrid has had trouble doing.

Here's the link...

link title

TagMan

tagman · January 2008

As the article points out, as well as the commentary, "impact" also meant what NOT to build.

Interesting, of course, but where is the "classic" Lexus?

TagMan

houdini1 · January 2008

The difference is that I "jabbed" you with cold, hard facts supplied by Edmund's. All you have is your flawed opinion.

Where are your facts to back up your statement that the LS will never become a classic?

tagman · January 2008

The difference is that I "jabbed" you with cold, hard facts supplied by Edmund's. All you have is your flawed opinion.

Your "facts" were years outdated, as they related to the new 1-series, and I clearly proved that, with the link to the actual Edmunds page on the 1-series. I can do no more than that!

Where are your facts to back up your statement that the LS will never become a classic?

Do you remember that LG and I were discussing the models that Mercedes has made, and how some of them were classic designs, and some of them not?

The oiginal point I made was actually critical of the previous Mercedes S-Class, not so much the LS. I mentioned that it wasn't one that will become a classic. LG and I also agreed that there doesn't seem to be a Lexus that is destined to be a classic, at least not yet.

Suddenly there was your and louiswei's uproar over that, and it still seems to be a problem. Get over it. Instead of poking at the 1-series as an act of revenge, stay with the subject at hand, and show some reliable sources that suggest the Lexus LS will be a classic. Otherwise, I stand by my observation, which I am more than willing to update, if you show me some credible information that I could consider.

TM

houdini1 · January 2008

Once again you are trying to fight facts with opinions. Edmund's 2006 opinion of the 1 series was that it was flawed and compromised.

Your opinion is that the LS will not become a classic. Show me where some authority stated this as a fact and please stop asking me to disprove your opinion. You are really hurting your credibility here.

louiswei · January 2008

show some reliable sources that suggest the Lexus LS will be a classic

Why should we since you are the one declared that the Lexus LS will not be a classic. Where is your reliable sources on that?

I am not saying the LS400 is a class or will be a class someday but my argument is that if any mass produced (meaning non M and AMG) MB and BMW in the last 20 years can be considered as a classic then the LS400 should be counted one as well.

Again, I do have a reliable source stating that the LS400 had more impact than the 2002 7-series. Whether or not it's a positive or negative impact you are free to judge it yourself.

Now my question is: where is the reliable and credible source saying that the '02 7-series had more impact than the LS400 huh?

dewey · January 2008

Your opinion that the LS is a classic is just like that of your opinion about your LX SUV being a classic. It's very personal and is not shared by anyone except maybe Louiswei who thinks an Audi A8 resembles a Town Car. :surprise:

So an opinion from Edmunds about a outdated 1 Series with a underpowered outdated drivetrain and an outdated softer suspension is all of a sudden relevant?

In fact we dont even get this outdated 1 Series here in North America so what exactly is your point?

The one we do get here is the one Edmunds currently has no opinion on.

EDMUNDS

And whoever said that an opinion from a Edmunds review equates to a fact? :confuse:

tagman · January 2008

Louiswei and Houdini,

I agree that some posts are opinions and some posts are facts. And sometimes the lines are blurry.

I see no evidence that the LS is or will be a classic. I also do not see any evidence that reputable sources have suggested that it ever will be a classic. It is reasonable enough therefore to make the observation and state it... that the LS is not likely destined to be a classic. You can call it an opinion or an observation or a fact... it makes no difference to me.

Mercedes, on the other hand, does have classic vehicles, and it is a fact that Mercedes is an older company rich in heritage, which Lexus does not have.

I have also made the post that it is my opinion that the previous generation S-Class will not ever be a classic car.

If you see reasons to believe that the LS will be classic car, then you are entitled to state that... and hopefully give the reasons, although that is not a requirement.

I do believe, that supplying 2-year old information on the European 1-Series as it relates to the upcoming 135i is irrelevant... particularly since there is much more relevant up-to-date information that is available on the actual current 1-Series, but then again, that's just my opinion. If you prefer to use old outdated information, then you are free to do so, but I think it compromises your credibility. LOL! :P

TagMan

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