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Comments
Just because you find a long list of American cars decent or appealing doesn't mean everyone does. You accuse me of pretending to speak for everyone yet you do the same thing. Its ridiculous. You go on and on with things that were never said, even longer lists of GM cars that everyone should like and so on. This and the uncontrollable urge to drag MB into everything GM, its really tired 1487. Nobody mentioned MB, thats your problem.
My point about the CTS was that this appears to be the most complete and competitive American sedan introduced in recent history.
And I'm telling you that such a distinction doesn't mean squat because "American sedans" aren't the benchmarks in their classes and in most cases they're bottom feeders so saying that the CTS is better than the American status quo is pointless. If American sedans set the tone for a segment or were even considered in the top part of the class this boast would mean something.
M
1. Don't know about 330i and TL but IS350 is available with power telescoping/tilting steering wheel as an option.
2. 335i is available in sedan form since late last year.
3. 5-series is destined to get the twin-turbo I6.
I see someone was saying that IS350's style is too "over the top". WHAT? And this is coming from a CTS supporter? I have only 3 words to say: CTS front facial. Case dismissed. Oh, BTW, IS350's small size is exactly one of the reason I passed on the TL so not everyone in this segment is looking for a large car. Bigger isn't necessarily better.
Also, I see that someone was saying since the last gen CTS is good in handling so we can automatically assume the new one will be too. WRONG. I'll give 2 examples to back it up why:
1. Last gen Lexus IS vs. current IS
2. Last gen Infiniti G35 vs. current G35
(In some respect, the last gen vs current gen 3-series could fall under this topic as well, just not as extreme as the previous 2)
In both cases the last generation cars handle better than their successor so there is no reason to assume one car's handling will be equal (or better) than its predecessor. However, we can use the last generation car as a "reference" to state something like: IF the new one handles like the old then blah blah blah...
BTW, for all y'all bashing on the IS350, FYI it just won a R&T comparo against G35 Sport and TL-S (both manuals). It also recieved top socres in both handling & steering department. I know this is off topic but I just couldn't help it. :P
(1)At any rate, the 335i sedan is alive and selling (well).
(2)The Lexus and G might have more hp on paper. If your interested check dyno results on the above three. The 335i has well over 300 whp and leads over the G and IS.
5 series has nothing to with this is class but since you mentioned it- it is THE true luxury sport sedan in its respective segment. Check what type of power and torque the 550i gets- no where near 273hp.
On a different note- I like the pics of the upcoming CTS. It looks a lot better in and out compared to the previous generation. I would like to sit in one and drive it before passing judgment.
Additionally- the new TL will also be available in 08 as an 09 model. That's some hefty competition IMHO for all vehicles involved.
thebug...
Ie - bean-counters picking it to death a nickel here and a dime there.
Just build the best car you can and offer it with only a couple of options(simmilar strategy works well for Honda, btw).
As for the best American car ever built, that's easy. The Saleen S7. As for the best car *GM* has ever built, and one that mere mortals might be able to buy, this might be it.
Also - a side note - on the Lucerne. Stop bashing it and go test drive one with the CXS package. It's not a BMW or Mercedes, but it's a darn fine car. Handles tight, gobs of low-end power, and it is befitting of the top-end Buicks(which were originally less fancy versions of the Cadillac).
A DTS for $10K less. All the meat and not much bling - exactly what GM and Buick buyers want. If you look at sales figures, the vast majority - nearly 75%, have been private sales.
As for the styling on the CTS, I like the first one better, but the rear end on it was hideous and impossible to see out of(parking when you have no clue where your rear bumper is is all too common these days). This one - I don't like the front as much, but I do like the angular effect. Say no to jellybean-mobiles! :P
My point still stands, the current car is sporty, contrary to what certain MB fans would have you believe, and there is no reason to expect the new car not to be so. Other than the DTS Cadillac really doesn't make any "traditional" luxury cars that arent capable in the twisties. This is 2006, not 1996.
BTW, the IS350s styling is many things, but graceful isnt one of them. The rear end neesd a lot of work, they tried to copy the proportions of the 3 series but didn't get it quite right. The rear quarter of the GS is similarly ungainly. I dont find any awkward angles on the '08 CTS.
For those with no kids or no need to transport friends/coworkers the IS or 3 series is fine. However, there are plenty of people who like a decent backseat. This is one reason the TL and ES350 are so successful.
Ergonomically, it's dead on. I drive 100-150 miles per day (my car is my office)or about 3k/mo, and this design has proven to be the best of all my other vehicles as far as comfort and convenience. Most of the people that I encounter really like the design as well.
In fact, since my CTS hit the office parking lot, I would say that at least half of the physician's that I work with have traded their foreign models and moved over to Cadillac. I don't know if the CTS design had anything to do with it, but it makes you go HUM MM....
History has shown that when something this cutting edge/radical gets such bad reviews, it's a true sign that the idea is just ahead of its time.
thebug...
Good point about the size of the 3er to the CTS. However, I was responding to chavis' comment about how the 3er is only better than the CTS in handling. :surprise:
That was the best part of your response. I just mentioned MB since you have held them up as the standard by which CAdillac and the rest of the luxury field should be judged. Hey, if you're not into MB anymore I apologize.
"People have heaped criticism on the old car for years and yet when I said anything along those same lines I didn't know what I was talking about. "
Exactly, I agree with that last part 100%. Other than the interior what major criticisms are you talking about? You continue to infer that the CTS was trashed by the press and I am in denial but you don't back that up. The media praised the CTS for its daring design, its autobahn honed handling and steering and the availability of a manual tranny. When it came out the 3.2L engine was criticized for being a little weak but that was addressed for 2004 MY with the 255hp engine. After that most complaints focused on the odd center stack design of which I have never been a fan. Please provide something other than your personal opinion if you are going to continue to say the CTS is such a bad car.
"And I'm telling you that such a distinction doesn't mean squat because "American sedans" aren't the benchmarks in their classes and in most cases they're bottom feeders "
Bottom feeders? LOL, I like that one. The Z06 is a bottom feeder? The Aura is a bottom feeder? The STS? wow.
The CTS is the best non V cadillac ever. How about that statement? Oh wait, can't say that until the magazines drive it because it may only look good "on paper" as GM pulls the wool over our eyes once again.
The 3 series doesnt have more space, offer more value or have a superior interior design to the new CTS. If you want track ready handling and want a compact luxury car that costs well over $40k with options than the 3 series cant be beat. If you are more of a G35/TL kind of guy than the CTS is right in the mix.
The critics that slammed the CTS design when it came out where way off in their predictions. These are people who praised lame Lexus and tired MB designs and they thought Cadillac was being too risky by using the A&S theme. In other words they thought a "true" luxury car needed to look staid to be accepted. What they failed to realize is that Cadillac had done conservative and tried to have their products look like Americanized Lexuses and it didn't work. They had to be bold in order to draw attention to their new products. To funny part is that Lexus, Audi and BMW all revamped their stale styling (to varying degrees of success) after Cadillac launched A&S. I think Cadillac's design direction is the best out of the brands I mentioned. The Audi grille is growing on me, but I still do not like the Bangle 5 series and L-finesse has left me bored at Lexus. I have seen several LS460s and it is much more anonymous in person than it is on TV with the optional 19" rims. Its another conservative evolution of the same old LS design.
The base 328i has 230hp and the base CTS has 210hp.
"The 3 series doesnt have more space, offer more value or have a superior interior design to the new CTS."
I think your spot on about space and value but the subjective opinions about exterior and interior design will never be agreed upon by everybody.
He said an order will take about eight weeks, so I'm looking at September. Want everything except the sunroof and nav. I just hope they are not attached to items I really want/need.
thebug...
Improvements/upgrades cost money, and I guess we get to pay for the upgrades. I expect the base price to go up at least 1K through natural inflation. And, I think they know the price range for the buying audience of the CTS very well by now, thus (if they're wise) the price should be placed within their reach.
thebug...
Agreed. It is fascinating to read through the last 5 to 6 pages of the forum arguing CTS vs everythings else. Given that we don't know much about the car, it is hard to see where these folks has all the information or experience to argue about. There are always groups of die-hard customer for a brand. But majority of buyer will buy based on what they see, what they like and what they hear. The one draw back for Caddy is the resale value. Residual value for TL, G35, IS are all around 58% or so after 3 year/12k mi per year and 07 CTS is around 52-53%. Somehow 08 CTS has to bridge the gap (either lower MSRP, lower dealer selling price, more content for the same price etc...)
Exactly my point, both cases the last gen handles better than the current gen. So it's not unreasonable that CTS might be on this track too.
BTW, the IS350s styling is many things, but graceful isnt one of them.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here. IS350 in my mind is the most elegant yet aggressive (not the most) design in its class and the back end is just beautiful.
Your negotiating skills come into play here as well. I go in fully loaded when I trade, and I usually get what I want or close to it. Car salesman (admittingly) hate me for that. I purchase on average two cars a year. It's a sport for me.
thebug...
I don't like BMW and Mercede in general becuase of the way they design their electornic interface (idrive and the like), our current Mercede is going to be our last one. However, both manufacturer respond to the market force by offering lease/cash support for slower selling model. One can get a pretty decent lease deal for BMW and Mercedes since their residual is set pretty high.
So a CTS with a "fixed" interior and a bit better all around? Of course the automotive magazines are eager to see it.
Also, remember that the 2007 CTS was at the end of its lefe-cycle and still only a bit worse than the competition, who had managed to surpass it. The 2008 is going to be a jump ahead again - so it'll be a contender.
****
Secondly, don't forget that many people who buy GM cars do so based upon rebates and GM cards. My father, for instance, has $3500 saved up towards a new GM car and with a little bit of incentives... He's looking at a CTS for under $25K. That's way *way* less than the competition, which is a factor for many people.(it's 29,900 at Cars Direct, and that's not nearly what you can haggle it down to, let alone a 2006 model) 30K minus $3500 minus $3000 or so this fall on a 2007...
Consider a on-sale, GM card purchase compared to a Camry V6. A lot of people would jump at the opportunity to own the far superior CTS for the same price - or even a few thousand more. 28-30K after incentives is a far cry from $35K+ for a BMW or a G35. The fact that it's going to be one of the least expensive options in the segment can't be glossed over.
Thirdly, he base engine isn't the pathetic 2.8L, but the proper 3.6, which is good enough for 75% of all drivers, to be honest. It's a good, VVT engine with gobs of power behind it(and very simmilar useable(low to midrange) torque as the 300HP version). What this means is that you can still buy a stripped-down base model and still get the same engine the upper-end 2007 had. Even if the price jumps up a few thousand dollars, it'll still be available for under $30K after the haggling, incentices, and GM dollars are factored in.
Btw - the GM card is a fantastic deal if you are looking into a new car in the next few years. You can use it to rack up a few thousand off and it works like cash. Just tell them at the end of the deal and GM pays the dealer the incentive(good for both of you - works like cash). My dad has the $700 a year/5 years type but the new version has no limit(though less %age).
To buy a used certified 03 CTS from a dealer today, one would probably pay 23-22K out the door. I can easily under cut that price, and get higher than high book, or just at high book on a private sale if I wish to go that route.
I already have a few viable takers on the CTS and other models because of my history of auto care. That being said, I will most likely do a dealer trade and get the price I want, because it's the thrill of the hunt. I usually do pretty good on trades. It has become an art I tell ya.
thebug...
Who here takes their car to a dyno? We can only base power comparisons on what the SAE presents. If BMW chooses to publish false numbers, that's their problem. If the car makes 320 hp, why lie? As I said, the IS and G35 have 3.5L engines that produce more than 300 hp and that is proven by the SAE. I'm not sure about the Lexus, but the G35 has even been certified under the new standards.
"5 series has nothing to with this is class but since you mentioned it- it is THE true luxury sport sedan in its respective segment. Check what type of power and torque the 550i gets- no where near 273hp."
Uh... what are you talking about? Read the press release on Edmunds. Who mentioned the 550i because I surely didn't.
"BTW, to use the term "class leading" insofar as it relates to whether a car can be had in a sedan form is inappropriate."
Have no clue what you're referring to here.
Just make sure you won't use "incorrect information" on the Lexus, the IS350's 306 HP is certified under the new SAE standard. Since 2006 all HP ratings posted by the manufactures are SAE certified, that's why we saw a drop in TL's HP from 05' model to 06'.
The CTS has a cohesive design. Call it polarizing but it carries common themes (this is true for the first and second generation models). The IS seems to have been an okay design until somebody decided to try and add some fake L-Finesse aggressiveness after the fact. I just can't get down with those door mounted mirrors and the front and rear valence tapers. It seems forced. I don't have beef with the car itself and what's underneath, just can't stand the skin it's in. Best interior and the best gauges in the business on that model (unlike the GS).
I'll also post another interior picture for comparison.
Who determines what makes a benchmark? Auto writers certainly do not if you the buyer has a mind of his own. I would drive the old FWD Seville, new STS or current DTS any day of the week over any non AMG/M E class or 5 series (old or new). Are those Cadillacs considered benchmarks by anyone? Probably not but they are EXCELLENT vehicles and in 80% of driving situations that we might encounter, you'll never miss the razor sharp handling of a sport package equipped BMW. I was once told by Mr. Merc that the old Caddy's couldn't compete (because FWD) and need electronic "crutches" just to drive down the road. I guess that's why everyone uses an alphabet soup of electronic damping nowadays, right?
Here's a some common traits of these so called benchmarks...
1) Terrible value- pay more for less like standard vinyl seats, extra for metallic paint, no CD player, etc
2) Cramped size. This is america, not Europe.
3) Identity crisis- Buying a car built for glass smooth roads of Germany with 40-35 series tires, not trolley track ridden streets, pot holes and even cobblestones here in Philly.
4) Identity crisis PT II- Buying a base model 325i or A4 with no options and 16" wheels and then saying American cars can't compete.
This new CTS will hopefully have all the good that the Europeans offer yet still be American and not some "Me too" car like some of the competition.
1) Terrible value- pay more for less like standard vinyl seats, extra for metallic paint, no CD player, etc
Agree with no standard leather and extra cost for metallic paint. However, no CD player? Where did you get this?
2) Cramped size. This is america, not Europe.
It has the largest size in class except TL and CTS. Yes, this is America and some of us prefer no-so-big sports sedans, especially entry level.
3) Identity crisis- Buying a car built for glass smooth roads of Germany with 40-35 series tires, not trolley track ridden streets, pot holes and even cobblestones here in Philly.
Not everyone lives in Philly. Highways in Florida are also smooth like the German Autobahn but too bad we have speed limit here. 3-series because of its exceptional handling is a very good choice for mountainous roads in regions like some part of California.
4) Identity crisis PT II- Buying a base model 325i or A4 with no options and 16" wheels and then saying American cars can't compete.
Agree that 16" on the 3-series is pathetic but one can upgrade for $15K more with the sport package. Handling is still standard BMW though.
By the way, what defines the benchmark you asked? I agree it's not by reviews and sales numbers alone. However, when a car likes the 3-series being the class leader in both of those 2 areas then there should be little doubts to crown it the benchmark.
So the CTS on paper will be ahead in both categories.
Really, you drove the CTS already? Wow, must be the first person besides GM testers.
Oh BTW, that 6-speed is only for the manual transmission and for your information IS350 doesn't have manual tranny so I really don't understand where was your comparison based on.
Has anyone around here driven the Autobahn lately - or is everyone going by the myth? A lot of it is speed limited (by signage or traffic) and certainly not glass smooth.
Biker, who saw his first CTS on the A5 just south of Baden Baden.
Let me clarify - the 6 MT in the current gen CTS feels much better than the 6 MT in the IS250 - and both trannies are made by Aisin.
It's a good thing that we have speed limits here in regards to speed and road conditions. Could you imagine what it would be like to hit an unsuspected pothole, or lay into a curve that wasn't properly banked at 120 + mph? It would/could be disastrous.
Oh, and many German cars are tiny because space is at a premium, especially for parking.
thebug...
GA400 - when it's not under construction like it is right now
FL528 - This one is so smooth and the only one I'd ever allowed my car to go over 100 mph on (did 138 mph on it once, silky smooth).
Yes, yes I know, driving that fast is dangerous and those are rare occasions.
The IS design/styling is not "Graceful", nor was it meant to be. It IS bold and aggressive, and very sporty. Relative to the CTS design, which I like, it is tasteful, as the CTS can easily be seen a soverdone.
The IS and GS designs are not similar enough to warrant comparison.
If you want an awkward angle, start at the grill, which I like, but is awkward.
The CTS seems to be a more well-rounded car than the IS, you seem to want to make a comparison, because it is bigger and offers two trannys. But the IS is better-looking.
Caddy did a very nice job. The Caddy will be a hit. 'Nuff said. That's sayin' sumpin'.
DrFill
I would love to take my CTS over just to give it a run.
I just read on the website the both IS engines were rated using the J1349 protocal under the FAQ section.
I've driven various 3 and 5 series without the sport packages and realistically, they don't feel much different than other cars in their classes except for the extremely stiff/high effort steering. I'm confused, what two areas does the 3 series lead in? I count handling/chassis tuning as 1 so I can't think of another area where it smacks the other cars in the face. Lexus, Infiniti, TL & new CTS have better designed interiors are roomier and provide better value. If you ask me, unless you value handling over all other pratical aspects of car ownership the 3 series loses. I don't hate the 3 but I don't see why it's put on a pedastel by people outside of magazines. Sure we posters are enthusiast and want a more sporting ride but the trade off in price and lack of value will move the 3 to the bottom of the list for me. If I had to have a BMW, gimme the last gen 3 or 5 because I liked those better.
Also, bad roads are a condition in a lot of the Northeast, not just SE Pennsylvania. If you have smooth roads, I am jealous and am happy for you. The amount of damaged rims I see on cars with low profile tires would probably surprise you since y'all have good roads. If the new CTS can combine good handling on 235/50 tires, that'll be a relief in these parts.
I dont find anything objectionable about the styling of teh CTS, it is almost perfect to my eyes. I find it to be appropriately aggressive and yet tasteful.
I'm glad Chavis made the point about the SAE ratings because there are a lot of engines that have not been rated yet. It is voluntary based on what I've read.
The 3 series is a class leader per the opinion of auto mags that have a love affair with that car. However, when you look at pricing, space, objective handling tests, interior design, etc. it's very hard to say the 3 series is the definitive class leader. The G35 and IS350 are basically on the same level, even if the press refuses to say so. As for sales, the 3 series has three body styles, RWD/AWD, two trannies, three engines and covers a huge price range and it makes sense that its the leading vehicle in this class in sales. No other entry level luxury car offers so many choices.
BTW, handling on base model BMWs is not the same as sport package models. There is a reason why magazines don't want to use regular BMW models in their tests. Stiffer suspensions, larger wheels and performance tires make a difference.