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Comments
***quote**
But the key model to their survival in Europe is the new BLS ‘premium mid-sized saloon, designed in Europe and built in Europe at Trollhattan, Sweden, GM’s Saab factory. The BLS fits into the GM’s European range above the Saab and its main competitors will be the BMW 3-Series, Mercedes C-Class, Audi A4 and Lexus IS 220/250.
***
This is at least how GM sees it. BTS-C/3/A4 class. They have decided(and wisely, IMO), to skip the small entry-level sport sedan market in the U.S. and go for what most buyers seem to want - a midsize version. The new CTS is aimed as a cheaper alternative to an E-Class, A6, or BMW 5.
But it keeps getting placed aginst smaller, more agile, and less expensive compact cars because all the editors generally see is "lowest cost model=smallest/entry level car". With predictable results. There's no way even a 5 series will beat a 3 series in a handling test, afterall.
as for pricing, I do not understand how you expected Cadillac to give you lease prices for the cars in questions. It is normal practice to compare MSRPs at comparison events because that's what makes sense. To say the BMW is really "cheaper" because lower lease rates are available is crazy. The BMW is not cheaper and lease rates are highly variable. The STS is cheaper even without special incentives, just price it out for yourself if you dont believe me.
"The STS with the options that make it competitive PERFORMANCE wise with the other LPS cars IS over $60,000. It is not a high value prop (without the aforementioned $9,000 discount.) "
WHat are you talking about? The 5 series and E class do not come with sport packages standard. Why are you saying the STS needs to cost over $60k to be competitive? That is your opinion, not a fact and it makes no sense. The STS without the luxury performance package is wholly competitive with a standard 5 series or E class.
"The CTS, the NEW CTS, I assume, likewise will have to be optioned out to at least the mid forties or higher and then, once again, it will butt heads with the NEW B8 A4, the (within one MY) refreshed 335, the incoming and new C class and the [minor] upgrades the G35 will most certainly bring for MY 2008."
what in the world makes you think the G35 or any other brand new car would be upgraded the year after its introduction? we already know the CTS will be priced similarly to the cars you mentioned but I dont get your point. Are you saying it doesn deserve to be as expensive as those cars? I dont agree. The CTS isnt a generation behind anything based on styling, hp, features or interior design. Where are you coming from with this argument? Since it's a year behind the G35 and coming to the market the same year as the C class you feel it's a generation behind. I dont get that at all. The IS, 330, CTS, G35 and C class will all be in the same generation. The fact that the G and IS beat the CTS to market by 1-2 years doesnt mean they are in a completely different generation. The G35 came out as a 2003 model as did the CTS. The G35 lasted 4 years and the CTS lasted 5 years. The new G35 and the '08 CTS are the SAME generation. What is hard to understand about that?
as for pricing, I do not understand how you expected Cadillac to give you lease prices for the cars in questions. It is normal practice to compare MSRPs at comparison events because that's what makes sense. To say the BMW is really "cheaper" because lower lease rates are available is crazy. The BMW is not cheaper and lease rates are highly variable. The STS is cheaper even without special incentives, just price it out for yourself if you dont believe me.
"The STS with the options that make it competitive PERFORMANCE wise with the other LPS cars IS over $60,000. It is not a high value prop (without the aforementioned $9,000 discount.) "
WHat are you talking about? The 5 series and E class do not come with sport packages standard. Why are you saying the STS needs to cost over $60k to be competitive? That is your opinion, not a fact and it makes no sense. The STS without the luxury performance package is wholly competitive with a standard 5 series or E class.
"The CTS, the NEW CTS, I assume, likewise will have to be optioned out to at least the mid forties or higher and then, once again, it will butt heads with the NEW B8 A4, the (within one MY) refreshed 335, the incoming and new C class and the [minor] upgrades the G35 will most certainly bring for MY 2008."
what in the world makes you think the G35 or any other brand new car would be upgraded the year after its introduction? we already know the CTS will be priced similarly to the cars you mentioned but I dont get your point. Are you saying it doesn deserve to be as expensive as those cars? I dont agree. The CTS isnt a generation behind anything based on styling, hp, features or interior design. Where are you coming from with this argument? Since it's a year behind the G35 and coming to the market the same year as the C class you feel it's a generation behind. I dont get that at all. The IS, 330, CTS, G35 and C class will all be in the same generation. The fact that the G and IS beat the CTS to market by 1-2 years doesnt mean they are in a completely different generation. The G35 came out as a 2003 model as did the CTS. The G35 lasted 4 years and the CTS lasted 5 years. The new G35 and the '08 CTS are the SAME generation. What is hard to understand about that?
:P
No, Cadillac pitted a 2005 530 against a 2006 STS. They should have pitted a 2006 530 (@ 255HP at the time) against the 2006 STS.
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Someone wrote here that they could buy a CTS for less than they could lease a 5.
I did post a "how is that possible" reply using 0% interest as a determining factor. The rebuttal seemed to suggest my logic was faulty for comparing the leasing of one to the buying of another.
The statement made suggested they could BUY a CTS for less money than one could LEASE a 5 for.
I assumed the person meant the monthly payment and/or the sum of the monthly payments over a similar time period.
A $36,000 CTS at 0% interest for 36 months is $1,000 per month. A $50,000+ 5 can be leased for ~ $599 - $699 (I've seen them as low as $579) for 36 months, 45K miles and no "additional" monies for maintenance.
My point was not to suggest folks (all folks) should lease.
My answer to the statement was intended to solicit an explanation as to how one could buy a "comparable" CTS for a comparable time period for less money than one could lease a 5. I didn't post the original assertion. I merely did some quick calculations based on number of months divided into the assumed selling price of the car.
A CTS as noted above would be $1000 per month for 36 months, if the 5 was $600 per month, the total out of pocket at the end of the term would be $21,600. $21,600 vs $36,000 out of pocket. In month 37 neither person would have any payments and only one of the people would have a car. But, the person with no car could continue to lease a $600 per month vehicle for another 24 months before reaching $36,000 out of pocket.
The CTS at 60 months is worth something, I agree.
The person who leased for 60 months @ $600 per month would in month 61 have "nothing to show for his payments." The person who paid $1,000 per month for the first 36 months (assuming 15K miles per year) will then have a car with 75,000 miles on it. I would assume the car would have needed at least one new set of tires and other wear and tear items replaced too.
I never intended to suggest someone who leases would buy a Cadillac or vice versa the BMW.
I would, normally, have put the lease of one against the lease of the other. And, if possible, I would have configured the cars similarly. The fact that a strippie CTS may be leased for $299 or $399 is nice to know. Configure the two more closely and then again run the numbers was my suggestion.
The German (and I am not here shilling for BMW, I do not own a BMW -- my wife does, though) has a very high residual that makes its lease payments belie its MSRP.
Moreover, my entire thesis has been that up to now (and for all I know even when the new 2008 CTS comes to market), the CTS has not been considered in the same product class as the LPS cars (Acura RL, Audi A6, BMW 5, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M, Lexus G and Mercedes E.)
Comparing the CTS to the cars above its class -- until we know more that would permit such a comparison -- is akin to the Hyundai claims that their flagship is "roomier" than a BMW 7 series. Most folks would not accept the notion that the Hyundai was a competitor to the BMW simply based on its interior volume, trunk space or other measurements of cubic feet.
Folks like me WILL give a long hard look at the new CTS -- I drag around an empty A6 95% of the time, I want to "down class and down size" somewhat. The new CTS seems like a good way to go to what might be a competitor for a BMW 4 series is such a thing existed.
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BMW did refresh the 330i one year after bringing it to market -- there is no 330i in fact any more -- the 330i was replaced with the 335i, and it will soon be joined by the 335xi; and each MY will demonstrate BMW's recognition that the market expects the time between refreshes to be compressed from this point forward.
On another subject (to rebut) I'm not the originator of the idea that the CTS is a generation behind (although I did arrive at that conclusion before I knew Car and Driver -- to name one -- had said that two years ago.)
And, in fact, I said that I applaud the huge leap forward the new CTS appears to represent; yet, I also decried the fact that it, at best, arrives "on par" with a one generation old LPS car. It doesn't mean I wouldn't get one -- it means I suspect it will be within its first MY heavily subsidized when it is compared with the Audi, BMW, etc etc etc I mentioned in previous posts. It is not pulling ahead of the other guys it is simply temporarily pulling alongside the other ELLPS cars. The true LPS cars will, I assume, again pull forward, pull away from the ELLPS cars. They have to.
Performance is a different matter -- sure a shorter wheelbase "fill in the blank" from (pick one) BMW can out handle a longer wheelbase BMW, etc. I would assume the new CTS, therefore will not perform (in the handling dept) as well as its class stablemates, the A4, 3, C, G, IS, etc.
The CTS will be compared with a refreshed Chrysler 300 -- and [non-permissible content removed] for tat the Chrysler 300C will probably offer a less refined but nonetheless compelling alternative for similar bucks. The Avalon too may show up in comparos.
Where the CTS is pitted against the LPS crowd is typically when it is the CTS-V going head to head with a BMW M5 or an Audi S4. Often the CTS-V acquits itself nicely. Especially when the BMW is, what, $30,000 more?
===
I have, hopefully responded to several of the points made in reply to some of my statements.
If the CTS for 2008 is repeatedly compared to/with a BMW 5 series it will only help Cadillac. I hope you are correct. I want the home team to win one. I suspect it might win if price is weighted heavily, I suspect it will lose, however, on other counts of Luxury and Performance against almost any one of the LPS crowd, including its own sibling the STS.
The CTS will remain this time around in the ELLPS class -- I don't see anything at all wrong or demeaning about that.
Maybe some folks here do -- and that, too, is fine by me. :surprise:
If you notice, I was comparing buying ONE CTS versus leasing two BMWs. Now, that begs the question - how long for the term on the GM?
Obviosuly you'd buy the Cadillac for 60 months. Yes, you'd be paying for another two years, but my point was that you could buy the GM for less than the two leases on the BMWs would cost because of the GM waranty and financing.
Figure 30,000 after rebates(doable, actually) and typical financing. $600 a month for 60 months, with maybe $2000 down.(let's keep the math simple here for now). After 36 months, your residual would be the same as what it's worth, or pretty close, so you could very well trade it in if you wanted, at the same time as the BMW.
This is why I said it costs the same. At three years, it's a wash, or close to it. Well, the GM also doesn't have wear and tear or mileage deductions like the BMW will. Returning cars after a lease can be a real nightmare for a luxury car. The CTS you just trade in for 8-10K and that's it. No fine print - same monthly payment, or really close to it(less if you get the GM 2.9% financing or simmilar)
But obviously you pay the extra two years and come out way ahead. Why not? The warranty is still there and in the end you end up a year ahead time-wise and have a car worth a nice amount, since it *still* will have some of the original warranty after 5 years.
Now, a 2006 - total different story, but GM's new warranty and their silly rebates combine to make for a very attractive deal.
P.S. You'll never see a BMW going for even close to $300 a month on a lease. If you want to compare *leases*, GM wins by a five miles. So the GM has a few things you have to cover. It's not going to be more than a few hundred dollars - compared to the BMW's $3-4000 more in payments every year.
The entire thread of the recent posts jumps between LPS and ELLPS cars for the reason that some folks contend the CTS is or will be with the 2008 car ushered in to the LPS class. Most of what y'all write about the CTS I agree with -- I only do not agree that the CTS is an LPS car NOW and I do not think it will somehow magically become an LPS car when the new version comes out.
We can continue to disagree on this latter part, it is OK with me. I'd rather get down to either what will make this new CTS a great ELLPS car OR what it would take to make it a legitimate LPS car able to stand alongside the STS in the LPS club.
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On the STS BMW 530 test drive
=====
I think what made this a "rigged" or unfair comparison was that Cadillac sent an STS MY 2006 and pitted it against a BMW 530 MY 2005.
I never suggested Cadillac should dumb down their car, only that if they wanted to demonstrate their car on a level playing field, they should have put MY to MY and that both MY's should be the same.
At this point, there is no current MY BMW 330. If a company wanted to demonstrate their latest and greatest and provide the buyer with the most objective comparison, one would assume that a 2007 CTS with all the options would be pitted against a 2007 BMW 335 similarly equipped.
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MSRP considerations
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Of course the info provided by reviewers would have to include MSRP to MSRP not a leasing program to MSRP discussion that, in the case of the lease, can and does change frequently.
If GM wants to sub vent the lease on the CTS and I am in the market, you can bet I'll be checking out the mo pay NOT the MSRP.
The phrase "buy what appreciates, rent what depreciates" only rings true if the cost of money is NOT below market (such as a 0% deal for 60 months.) In other market conditions, residual and cost of money needs to be considered.
If GM will sell / lease a new CTS for $299 or $399 with all the content available or expected in an LPS vehicle, they will certainly lure customers.
The cars at these prices typically do not include navigation systems and all the premium content I had assumed would be expected by an LPS buyer -- even one looking for a 2/3rds priced LPS.
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Last Gen?
=====
The CTS according to some professional reviewers (and me, even though I am an amateur) IS a generation behind its direct competition. The 2008 CTS will catch up apparently. It does not move ahead of its competition (the ELLPS) and it almost certainly will remain a generation behind the current LPS incumbents' 2008 versions. Yet, so what? The CTS is not an LPS car, the A4 and G35, ditto -- these ELLPS cars, too, are likely to be a generation behind their LPS siblings. No harm no foul.
The CTS, I contend, needs to differentiate itself or move ahead of its rivals in order to regain the standard of the world designation it seems to be striving for.
And, if it comes to the market with "incentives" -- many will overlook its possible also-ran status. I probably would forgive it not leading the pack if it is priced attractively.
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Creds
=====
What makes anyone think the CTS is a direct rival to the LPS crowd? Thus far it seems its roominess is the attribute most often cited.
That Hyundai claiming to be the same size as the BMW 7 ought to be even more attractive if roominess determines car class in any substantial way.
But that IS silly. Remember the Ford that was advertised as being competitive with a Mercedes? Folks didn't really believe the Ford was a competitor to the Mercedes despite their similar appearance and size.
The new CTS, hopefully, will be the king of the ELLPS hill -- that would be a major step up from 6th place (out of 8); a triumph for Cadillac and GM and a great thing for the customer.
If I choose to shop the CTS against a legitimate LPS class member, there is certainly nothing wrong with that. If I believe the CTS is a better value than the LPS crowd, generally, again, no problem.
However, if I start discussing my CTS over on the LPS forum, I should not be surprised if I am told my CTS is not a member of the club.
At this point, the new B8 A4 will be my logical choice to compare the new CTS to. If I think the CTS is "almost" an A6 and it costs less, well, after all, perception is reality.
I will, however, get a dose of reality from time to time when I attempt to participate in LPS discussions as if I'm on equal footing.
Let's celebrate the new CTS for what it is, an American ELLPS car that has a good chance to move up the ladder.
Maybe it will be admitted into the LPS club next time.
:shades:
The subtext of much of the recent discussion is "thang measurement" (cars as status symbols). I don't care if someone else's is bigger or smaller, I like this one better. The remaining two questions are: can I rationalize ~$35k for a mere car, and can I/should I wait for the wagon? Ok, that's 3.
Please stop with the hawg wash !!!!
You speak so much about generation behind and how the 08' CTS has 2005 content. Please start naming off important features found on the Acura TL, Infiniti G35, BMW 335i, Lexus IS 350, that aren't on the 08' CTS ???? PLEASE I'M ALL EARS.....Hell some of those models I mentioned like the Infiniti G35, 335i, came out in MY 2007. The IS 350 only came out in MY 06.
I think Plekto, is right and you have a personal problem with Cadillac whipping those Germans butts and you don't like it !!!!
Rocky
One more thing. I've been a regular here at Edmunds for almost 9 years, & I've noticed that folks always get more worked up over not-yet-introduced cars than they do over cars that are actually in showrooms now. This seems to be a law of the universe. Maybe it's because when an argument gets started, it can't be settled in the usual ways: by taking a test drive or referring to a recent C&D or R&T road test. (Or maybe it's because these discussions attract an above-average number of 13-year-olds. Who knows?) So the discussion turns hot & silly & stays that way until a host steps in or the participants lose interest. Why fight over the interior trim quality (or lack of same) of a car that's months away from the showroom? It's absolutely pointless.
For the record: I'm a satisfied BMW (330i, sports package, stick) owner who's happy to see that the absurdly small number of RWD luxury sport sedans that can be had with manual transmissions is about to increase. I don't know if there's a CTS in my future -- I won't be in the market again until 2009 - but I like what I see & I hope it's a home run for GM.
I dont know who you are arguing with at this point. For pricing reasons alone the CTS is unlikely to be cross shopped with the 5 series and E class. It will be much cheaper and will most likely be competing with the compact luxury Europans and G35/TL. NO one here disputes this fact so I dont get your obsession with convincing us the CTS isnt a true midsize luxury sedan competitor. In terms of size, power and features it COULD be compared to a 535 or E350. It's that simple. Since it's in a different price class most buyers wont see the CTS as a 535 competitor but it's a realistic comparison based on the merits of both cars. You havent stated why this comparison wouldnt be valid. The CTS will have the space, features and power found in the 528/535 but will most often be cross shopped with the 3 series.
Also, you keep referring to this 6th place finish in C&D but the CTS was the 2nd oldest car in that test and thus finished 6th. As I already noted, it finished FIRST in a R&T comparison when it was newer vs the 530, 300, S80, A6, etc. YOu never responded to that. Any car that is near the end of it's lifecycle is bound to finish near the bottom of a comparion because it lacks power and features.
"Comparing the CTS to the cars above its class -- until we know more that would permit such a comparison -- is akin to the Hyundai claims that their flagship is "roomier" than a BMW 7 series. Most folks would not accept the notion that the Hyundai was a competitor to the BMW simply based on its interior volume, trunk space or other measurements of cubic feet. "
That statement is laughable. We are comparing the CTS to the 535, E350, etc. based on size, performance and luxury features. As someone stated, why dont you tell us what the car is lacking compared to those vehicles. We already know most people wont compare the CTS to those cars, but they wouldnt be crazy to do so. The Azera doesnt have half the features found on the 7 series and it's nowhere near the same class of vehicle. That analogy was poor.
The CTS, I contend, needs to differentiate itself or move ahead of its rivals in order to regain the standard of the world designation it seems to be striving for.
The strategy of GM isn't to make a better car. They want to do what Toyota did to them 20 years ago. Build a comparable car that in no way stands out from the rest except in reliability and lower cost. It's a very smart plan, IMO. You get peolpe who are lokoing at the de-contented and plasticky E class now - they sure *will* cross-shop the new CTS, especially in the Midwest, where there is still a nagging voice in the back of their heads saying "buy American".
If the CTS consistently got 4th place out of 8 cars in every test for driving but was $10K less money - by far the least expensive - you can bet it would get a recommendation in most magazines. Entry-level gives a huge bias towards being, well, affordable to peolpe who are lookig to step up. And $40-50K for a Volvo or Audi or BMW because they want a luxury car that's not the size of a Civic or 3 series(the 3 isn't really useable for a family, for instance)... It's just a hard pill for many to swallow, even if they can do so. They'd much rather find somethng for $35K and save the money.
Btw, a base 2007 CTS is just at $28K. The new ones will be about $32-34K to start, according to the dealer I talked to today. Cloth seats, no nav, 6-speed gearbox... but with that nice 3.6VVT engine and the better interior. Looks very attractive to me.
CarsDirect Price: $28,327 - including delivery. No incentives, financing, or rebates currently. I don't se how the base 2008 is going to be that much more expensive. Certainly not 40k+ as some of the detractors are saying it will be.
I've never been able to understand the allure of an imported product, and I suspect people who feel it cannot be cured. One of my former neighbors had such a bad time with his 300D, the dealer gave him a full price credit on a new one, and later the idiot bought a third one.
Remember the 2007 base has the smaller engine and vinyl; the 3.6L starts about 33k.
Do you have any actual information they're offering cloth seats? Right now, they offer them only in Middle East 2.8L CTS's and not US ones. This is important to me because I much prefer cloth.
I suspect that the price won't be much different, or maybe a slight bit less to keep that bottom-end as close to 30K as possible. Cloth is an easy way to save some money in a non-critical area that doesn't destroy the interior.
Personally I don't like the cheap leather anyways - it's not REAL full-thickness leather, either, so why pay the money, especially when you know it's just going to get stains on it from the kids and such?
My beef with leather is ventilation, pun intended. I can't wear synthetics without puddling. I've never tried perforated leather or the new ventilated seats--I wonder if they're discussed in a thread here.
I suspect thicker leather wouldn't be very showroom-soft, but it would hold up better. Cracked leather is uglier and harder to fix than dirty cloth.
It's going to be hard to get one of these at MSRP for a while, much less a discount.
So, is that to say the 2007 CTS has two different seating materials, leather and vinyl, or that it only offers the vinyl?
One is not able to be driven, today. But, if it were, I would test it IMMEDIATELY not so I could dis it and tell you how much better some foreign make is, it would be with the sincere desire to be impressed.
I EXPECT to be impressed. I merely said I thought the car needed some "ahead of the pack" not "equal to the rest of the pack" content. (My last gen comments are primarily in response to the notion that some seem to think the CTS will graduate to the LPS class with this update -- AND I contend that the ELLPS 2008 CTS will incorporate 2005 LPS content.)
Now here is something I just can't let pass: "The strategy of GM isn't to make a better car. They want to do what Toyota did to them 20 years ago. Build a comparable car that in no way stands out from the rest except in reliability and lower cost."
I am also wondering if Cadillac REALLY is trying to emulate the Toyota example. Are they really attempting to build a car that in no way stands out from the rest. . .? I believe they want (and seem to have the capability) to build a world beater, not a world keeper-up-with.
But, as usual, I could be wrong -- just never uncertain. :surprise:
Hopefully with rocket taillights. That'll stand out.
And peolpe started buying them instead of domestics.
BMW and Mercedes have become horribly unreliable and expensive. Volvo is rapidly turning into a joke as well - at least compared to a decade ago(1993-1997 was probably their high-point). All GM has to do is offer a simmilar product with a better warranty, better reliability, lower cost to fix, and for a lower price...
Oh, wait - other than the interior, the first generation CTS was all of that. The next looks to be a significant upgrade. So expect a lot of shoppers to take a look at it - and then another once they see the under $40K price.
Biker, who'd be very interested in base model w/ sport suspension and 6MT.
PS. And, please no run flats.
I keep googling this, that and the other place to find out what will be available with what.
I would certainly be keenly interested in a configuration like this:
2008 CTS w/300 HP V6
o sport suspension/wheels [18" or bigger] (maybe sport seats)
o either 6 speed would be fine, but I'd probably go with the manual
o AWD (sorry, this one is a deal breaker)
o Magnaride
o Technology/guidance package: sat nav, sat radio, voice control of nav and phone, bluetooth, park sensing and/or rear backup camera, TPMS with TP readout, electochromic mirrors
o Leather and/or leather alcantara (optional) seats
o Front and rear heated seats
And the things Cadillac generally calls "Luxury Performance Group."
Here is a concern -- the AWD will not be allowed with the 300HP engine, the sport package or the stick shift. Reading one site it appears the AWD version will be somewhat limited in its configurability (auto only -- which in and of itself is not a show stopper -- 258HP -- which MAY not be a show stopper, but 300HP would be sweeet, and so on.
The question is, "is there a place one can go to determine what combinations will be offered??
I assume, barring technical restrictions, there will be MARKETING reasons (initially) to offer configurations and that over time these may change. I need to be in order mode in 13 months and despite what some of you have concluded, the early data (and the pictures) have made me keenly interested in the CTS AWD @ 300HP with a 6 speed manual.
I am continuing to be more impressed with Cadillac's efforts for this refresh. :surprise:
I'm middle-aged, so I want the softest suspension and smaller wheels. I live in the old part of town, and my Intrigue makes me feel every road imperfection.
How well do modern clutches hold up? I last had a manual in 88, and it went through clutches like water. It may have been my driving style of course.
Looking at your list of gizmos, you may have to get an STS to get all of them. At the GMI site, people are expecting the STS to be redone for the 2009 model year, but no one knows for sure.
I can't imagine them not combining AWD and the 300hp engine. Look at the current STS to see if they combine manual and AWD.
GM has a long tradition of offering desirable options, especially engines, the second year of a new model. It's stupid because it hurts them in magazine comparisons and irritates first year customers, to say nothing of the potential customers who never hear about the upgrade and go elsewhere. By next March, you may be able to find out what's new on the 09 model, which could be infuriating if your lease is up then.
If I can't get my A/C fixed cheaply, I'm seriously considering buying a used El Cheapo with a manual & A/C to see if I want another manual in a CTS or G8.
note "leather seating SURFACES" !!!!
This tells me that the only parts that are leather
would be where you back or butt rests !
I can assume the rest is plain ol' vinyl............
The differences are NOT subtle. Magnaride is, er, like having a sport suspenion when you need it and a comfort suspension the rest of the time. The def of having your cake and eating it too.
Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS), sorry for the FLA (four letter acronym.) Occupational hazard (I'm in IT and we TLA or FLA everything!)
Here is some "data" for your digestion.
The Chrysler 300 offers adaptive cruise, navigation, partial voice (for the phone function, which IMHO is MANDATORY if we expect to be legally allowed to use a phone in a moving car and drive at the same time) -- but the 300 offers "parktronic" but no backup camera.
As I recall park sensors were not offered through 2006 on the CTS, dunno if it came out on the '07's.
I would be OK without a backup camera, personally, but it is the kind of feature that would be classified as "expected" as we move up from the ELLPS.
I have a loaner car, this weekend with the backup camera AND parktronic sensors and I must admit it is cool -- but I would hardly feel short sheeted if a backup camera was not offered (on the other hand, as someone here noted, why not sell it if the customer wants it and will pay for it?)
Navigation will be offered, you can be assured of that. If adaptive cruise control is not offered, life too will go on, but lane departure warning would also be a welcome feature (extra cost, of course.)
On this same loaner, I have lane departure warning which is a completely VISUAL system built into the outside mirrors -- I thought it was annoying when I tested it in an Infiniti since it was an AUDIBLE system that was either ON or OFF, the visual system can be turned off, but it is NOT annoying like the noise maker system.
In any case, mass customization (of options without forcing the buyer to buy a package just to get two of the 5 features in it) makes all of this easy AND profitable.
I wanted a heated steering wheel AND heated front and REAR seats. What is the big deal, charge for it.
In the Infiniti, for example, the only way to get heated rear seats is to buy the Premium package which is $10,000 -- who's dumb idea was that?
Anyway, we all seem to want to be able to pick and choose what we want -- and hey, I'm all for packages (with discounts) too. But sometime things are lumped together or not allowed to be selectively configured.
This latter point, ease of ordering, would be a real differentiator these days.
Some folks here will be upset with my opinion that it costs over 60 large to equip an STS the way "I" want it because option groups force the buyer down a path of 5 figures worth of groupings -- if one wants Magnaride, for instance.
Sign onto a German or even British website for one of the German cars and the ordering options are extensive and very detailed. Sign onto the US version of same and it is true lots of desirable things ARE bundled together -- but it simply is not possible to pick and choose if what you want is a sport suspension with UHP all season tires.
In any case, this is -- were I in a focus group and asked -- a way to differentiate the new CTS from its closest competition. Hopefully this new CTS can be configured "any which way but loose."
With respect to interiors, why not offer cloth, vinyl, leather seating surfaces, full leather or leather and alcantara mixed and matched? Let my people choose!
I used to be of the mind that cloth was the best. Spill coffee on it, and, well, all of a sudden the non cloth interiors start to get better looking.
Now, with two Shetland Sheepdogs as sometimes passengers, cloth would be a disaster.
Chocolate milk shakes -- leather survives, cloth dies, and so on.
My friends with children were the first to turn me onto leather -- I'll leave you with what they told me: cleaning up after a baby's "mess" is simple with leather, impossible with cloth.
Hell, I even got rid of my cloth couches and went with twin full leather sofas and recliners -- paper towels can clean them of anything that can be spilled or thrown up on them!
Come to think of it, that probably rules out suede, then doesn't it. That would be nasty if the dog got car sick -- what was I thinking?
I took the new Automobile magazine to my friend at the BMW dealership today -- he looked at the price and the car and said "uh oh," my job might be a little bit harder next year!
From this side of the desk, however, our choices just got more interesting, eh? :shades:
Cadillac uses gizmos to better differentiate the CTS and STS lines. I think they're more likely to require the 300 engine for AWD than prohibit it. They were slow to offer it with the V6 on the STS. With the new rear window, they will have to offer ultrasonic parking warning at least. It may have it now.
There are some complaints about seat comfort (padding) with ventilated seats on the Lexus/Avalon forums. A search didn't turn up anything on the Cadillac forums, but I wonder how many they sell. If you can't get heated rear seats, get the remote start, which turns on the climate control. My father has a Samoyd and cloth seats which will soon be white.
I've been complaining for years that GM and others (idrive) are forgetting the luxury of CHOICE. The new Malibu will have many more interior colors and choices than any Cadillac, which used to offer 2 different fabrics and leather in multiple colors in every model, plus the d'Elegance interiors for a few years. If the Malibu's a success, perhaps they'll do it more often. They've at least dumped the all-black dash, which IMO was worse than the design itself.
I used to work for a Pentagon contractor--alphabet soup. The Navy likes to make theirs into words or puns.
You might expect to find items like sport seats and Magneride on the 600 hp CTS-V. I don't think it's wise move for GM, do make the option list to complicated from a cost standpoint for the regular CTS.
I like the regular CTS, the way it is. I wouldn't get sport seats and think the ones already found on the CTS will fit the bill good enough for a 300 hp car. I know BMW's 335i can cross the $50K range when you fully option it up. I don't think GM, wants the CTS, to creep that high when they have the over $50K CTS-V coming out for Model Year 09'. I predict the CTS-V will start out or be loaded up in the low-mid $50's like the last generation. A 07' CTS-V is $52-53K. Who's not going to want a 09' CTS-V for $55-58K with 600 hp. that will smoke a M3 for less and smoke the M5 for a fraction of the money ???? GM, can kill 2 birds with 1 stone with the 09' CTS-V
I'd look for the next generation STS-V to cross the 650 horsepower mark. Some expect the next STS-V to be around 750 horsepower but I don't think 650+ hp. is unrealistic. The new "Ultra" V8 that will debut in the next STS will make a base 400 hp. rating.
Rocky
Is it true that they all leak eventually, or is that an urban myth?
I'm curious if you can feel the summer sun's heat through the shade. I can feel on my face the heat radiating off my solarcool windshield, so I wouldn't want that right above my head.
That's exactly what I hate about Acura and most of the Japanese imports. The only option is often satnav. You either buy the whole car or nothing. Lexus is just as bad. Moonroofs are listed as option, but just try finding one on the lot without one.
Domestics seem to be much more accommodating. Please, continue to give me options. Bundle them if you wish, but keep some standalone.
BTW, I'm currently a Lincoln LS driver, but I'm anxiously anticipating (redundant?) the new CTS. I like the exterior styling and the RWD.
If I had one that I could fit under, I would use it a lot, but I worry about the risk. SRX owners complained of squeaks and rattles with their giant ones.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
It's amazing to me what a small amount of differing opinion makes 1487's thong get all twisted up.
I'll do the smart thing and wait till it comes out, then drive it, and judge the driving dynamics for myself.
I won't declare it the second coming before it's even in dealerships.
For the moment, let's assume it is as full of the goodness as Automobile and Motor Trend (et al) have depicted.
Let's also assume that a CTS LOADED (not a CTS-V) can be had for a number that begins with a "4" (and I'm talking about MSRP, not street price.)
This weekend our big town had the annual [dismal] new car show (which was actually "not bad" for a Cincinnati show.)
I checked out cars that I thought would be competitive with the "new" CTS (and I did survey the current CTS, too.)
BMW, for instance, positioned its on the floor 5-series car at the "expo" as a 530xi in silver with leather and apparently premium pack and heated seats, etc. The price was able, somehow, to be (on the window sticker) a number beginning with a "$50." It had a $1,275 auto trans.
Audi's A6 3.2 was there, too, with an on floor price something like "$48" as the first two numbers despite the fact that it was silver (extra cost) 18" wheel package (extra cost) and two other option groupings.
Infiniti had an M35X also sub $50K, ditto Lexus and ditto Cadillac's STS.
Those of "us" who want to compare the upcoming CTS with the LPS class, apparently could find the CTS a screaming bargain since the above noted cars, although hardly strippies, were only "moderately" optioned.
The magazine pundits who want to compare the CTS with the ELLPS cars, would find the BMW 3 series sedan, the A4 the G35, the IS, etc, much more highly optioned would be better equipped and only slightly less than their "bigger" siblings. A case could be made then (assumptions above) that the CTS for 2008 would be a no-brainer if you were looking for a BMW 5 series similarly decked out.
The new CTS will be more bigger, more better than the current CTS. It will, apparently, be "close enough for jazz" to the size class that includes the [current, at least] BMW 5, Acura RL, Infiniti M, etc.
I am building to a possible conclusion (one I'm assuming Cadillac is hoping will come true) -- the CTS will "challenge the thinking" of a person looking for an Asian or European LPS by virtue of content, fit and finish, style and yes even performance. The new CTS will be a "thinking person's" AMERICAN LPS alternative.
Somehow, I'll bet that the pundits (who may not be the customers but they are the "taste makers") will not give the CTS the keys to the LPS club regardless of the above observations and assumptions.
Is this important to "you and me?"
Perhaps.
I for one despite all the ire I seem to foist upon myself by my comments, look forward to testing a new AWD 300HP CTS with the OPTION, just the very thought of this is incredible, of a 6 speed row-your-own and all of the LPS content I currently enjoy in my A6. And if the lease price for less than 40 months comes in at a number beginning with a "5," well, hell -- I'd be hard pressed not to thumb my nose at a more expensive and perhaps only better from a pundit's point-of-view LPS car that could be had for a number beginning with a "7."
After 28 Audis, 2 BMWs and, let's see, 3 VW's, I don't need no stinkin' badges! I want a car that offers Performance and Luxury that happens to be a sedan.
Sayin' it don't make it so, but the preliminary data suggests the new CTS will NOT be an LPS killer, but it very well could be one of the MOST SIGNIFICANT American cars coming out in 2008.
For the sake of competition, I hope so.
Of course, as usual, I am often wrong -- but never uncertain.
Drive it like you live. :surprise:
It's not that it's cheaper than the 5 series, so much as BMW and Mercedes are gouging horrendous amounts for their cars lately.
I'm big enough that I don't need Mark's (status) measuring stick either!
I've been an admirer of the CTS since it's introduction and hope to purchase one in 08 or 09 depending on whether there is a coupe in the CTS future. If not I'll settle for the sedan given the latest photos of the 08. I'm hoping that it will be as striking in person as it has been in all of the introductory photos.
With that said, I'm elated that the new direct injection V6 will produce 300 hp. It certainly won't hurt to have that much power and torque on hand when needed.
One interesting note: the "spokesmodel" presenting the features of the new CTS mentioned the 40GB hard drive MP3 player and seemed to indicate that you could copy your CD's directly from the CD player to the hard drive. That would truly be useful.