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Comments
Rocky
It will be interesting to see how expensive those new M3's will be ? I'd be willing to bet once the new M3 comes out it will have the highest residual on the market !
Rocky
Rocky
is the main site.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45902
is the thread that mentions Mulberry leather upholstery.
There are a lot of amateur and pro. photos of the CTS on other threads.
How very nice to know. And how big is your thang?
Hey pal do you know if this new 08' CTS has "voice recognition" capability's ? Ya know via a push of a button and say/speak
"CD play disc 4 track 8" or "find nearest ATM" "display gas stations" or "find nearest mexican resturant"
ATTENTION:
Hey "readreader" where r u pal ? I miss ya and hope if you see this message you will let us know u r okay pal. I miss your pics and analysis
Thanks,
Rocky
"balloon only leases" or somebody is feeding you full of B.S. because my numbers aren't adding up on the payment calculator :confuse:
I priced up a $45K BMW 335i and with $2500 down, 36 months, 15K a year I was looking at $842 a month :surprise:
Maybe you can explain ?????
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
I went to an Acura dealer. Same routine, this time, I asked about the price for an MDX w/sport package.
Actually, repeated the exercise with a Volvo V8 XC90
My criteria:
36/45K (and if no maint, tell me the cost of main for required items for 45K)
Assume: first mo payment.
Assume: Ohio sales tax paid in one lump
Assume: 50 50 chance of sec dep (and please tell me)
I had checked the on line calculations, but as I have come to learn, the on line calcs are pretty much all over the board as far as reality goes. A reason seems to be the cap costs -- and my criteria says "no cap cost -- unless provided in the form of off MSRP."
I am looking to break the $50K barrier and still get an ELLPS or LPS with AWD and what is generally termed "technology" package.
As of March -- either a BMW X3 or 335xi can be had, thusly equipped, etc, for numbers UNDER $640. Apparently, so can a $54K Volvo XC90, but I am somewhat suspect of this number because the person who did the calculations would not meet with me personally, there was a runner in between who kept going between us -- and the numbers, at first, kept coming back at 72 months for a buy, not 36 months for a lease.
In any case, using the BMW store's numbers, compared to the Acura store's, etc, the BMW had a residual as high as 64% and as low as 61%. The Volvo was 47%, the Acura was kept secret.
A $48K BMW compared to a $45,995 Acura, for instance, was over $200 less per month, same deal and the BMW did come with full maintenance which, over 45K miles is probably, worth at least $500 (more if I had to buy the $80 wiper blades that we seem to go through every 6 months, I'd imagine.)
Full disclosure -- the current car's lease is up in about ~ 12 months. We will be placing an order in ~9 months, for a new car -- we told every dealership this. We told them this is how we shop and that we would be expecting a 2008 and that any price they gave us today would only be to place the cars in some sort of "current perspective."
That is, we all know the Fed could lower interest rates, which may lower money factors on leases. Residual calculations may warrant improvements (or not) in residuals and the overall state of the world may dictate off MSRP discounts (or not) that we don't know about now.
The cars in question are from about $46K to $54K.
I would never expect certain cars to be "pushed" -- the Audi S4, the BMW M3, perhaps a CTS-V fits in there too.
We (my wife and I) were looking at more "mundane" (if somehting that costs $50K can be called mundane) cars. We are both tired of being told "nicely equipped" for $39K.
The new CTS is appealing on so many fronts, but then again, the STS was too -- and I couldn't make it work. If BMW subvents its cars, it must do so because they can afford to do so based either on their cost of money (which I doubt would be seriously different than the other guys) or their willingness to claim and live by higher residuals. Subvented or not, TODAY, there are $46K cars that lease at a number beginning with an "8" and $48K cars that do the same thing with numbers beginning with a "6" and then they include maintenance.
It is true the MSRP of so many of our cars over the years has been over $50K, but even at $53,286, my Audi is $640 and change per month for a 36/45K lease. That was 2005, it may not be repeated, I know this.
The Cadillac appeals because it is an American car. Further, it appeals for its size and apparent content. Many here seem to believe it will NOT tickle the underbelly of $50K -- even though the STS experience would seem to contradict this.
But I am not speaking of a base car, rather of the AWD version with "all" the technology -- I do not dispute that the CTS RWD with perhaps one "premium" option may well remain below $40K.
Most folks, when confronted with, for instance, a $46K car from company "A" that leases for mid "$8's" and also having a $48K car from company "B" that leases for low to mid "$6's" will consider the car from "B" if they are in any way comparable modes of transportation and creature comfort.
I do not have a BMW, I have never personally owned one. My wife has had two (1988 and 2005.) They SEEM to be so much lower in price than so many other cars out there when one considers leasing. They (on the LPS board) are the number one or number two selling car month after month, due I assume, in no small measure to their lease prices (and over 75% of them are leased, according to my BMW dealer.)
I priced using the Internet and Cincinnati area dealerships.
The new CTS, I would imagine, will not have any programs initially. The current Cadillacs (but NOT ALL of them) have some handsome incentives -- if this keeps us, the new CTS when it is no longer BRAND NEW and in the spotlight, may well be both the car and the bargain I'm hoping it will be.
:surprise:
Rocky
"I went to the BMW dealer. I sat across from a sales rep. I asked about two BMW's. The price of both of them was north of $46,000 (which is where I think the CTS will be.)"
I called my BMW rep and these numbers, reported earlier, by me, still hold. The web configurators are, at best, approximations -- but they should be consulted, for they do represent a starting point.
One thing, the $2,500 cap cost that is on the web, is required -- but not from the customer. The dealer, should he/she be so inclined is very able to provide this reduction (as did ours.)
I think in order to compete (and stand out) in this segment, the CTS will have to offer some compelling color options/combos above and beyond the standard fare. Audi has done well with the taxi-cab yellow S4's, both standard 3's and M3's have interesting interior colors (cinnamon, terra brown, etc etc) that really pop....
Price of entry I think in this segment...
Someone several pages ago said he'd heard from his local dealer that a cloth interior would be standard on the base model CTS. I took that to the cadillacowners.com forum and got chewed out by a snotty 4th gen. Cadillac dealer from L.A. Of course, he'd never experienced humidity like we have in NC, so he had no idea why anyone wouldn't want leather in a luxury car.
Speaking of pig-headed posters, I realized many of the threads at GMI (as gminsidenews is known) degenerate into the same arguments and opinions over and over again. Still, most GM developments show up there, so it's worth visiting, if only to get a link to a news article at another site.
Rocky
335xi with sat nav, premium and a couple other things.
X3 ditto.
Rocky
Thanks.
Unless the CTS is less expensive than a 5 series, I think it will face an uphill battle.
That is, of course, if the CTS is as popular to lease as Bimmers seem to be.
For, who would pay more per month for a $40K CTS than a $50K BMW?
I don't know how and I almost don't care -- but when my company, those many moons ago, offered a car allowance (for a lease), I literally looked first at a Chrysler product.
My then boss, himself owning an Audi Silver Fox, a BMW Bavaria and a Porsche 944, showed me an article about a new car, called an Audi 5000 (the 100LS was pretty much considered a losing proposition at the time).
He showed me that I could lease a new 1978 Audi 5000 for less money than a Dodge Charger or a Cordoba or even an Olds Toronado, even though they had lower MSRP's.
I went for the Audi 5000.
Cadillac's new CTS is a very compelling package (on cyber paper) -- I hope they "lease them" to move them (taking a page from BMW.)
And a lot of people are spending their money elsewhere. Accura, Infinity, Lexus, Cadillac - they all make compelling 5 series choices for often less money or with better reliability(often both).
If the anecdotal evidence is true, the majority of these cars are leased. Likewise it appears that 75% of BMW's are leased and they have, typically, zero costs other than gas, insurance & plates for 50K miles.
The subventing or the residuals alone makes a BMW's 3 year cash out of pocket often the lowest of most and sometimes all of its "league" (ellps or lps.)
It seems that the BMW, if it is "overpriced and you pay for the badge" suggests that the cars it competes with are even more so.
I am in the 75% (and growing) who long-term rent my cars. I am enthusiastically in favor of returning to an American car. The CTS fits my age, lifestyle, income etc, well (at least the written word and 2d pictures of it seem to.)
Yet, if I configure a new CTS, a new A6 and a new 5 series, as I would like them (AWD, technology packages, upgraded suspension, wheels and tires, etc.), I will look at the monthly payment for 27 - 39 months, the out of pocket maintenance costs and the cost to feed and insure it.
I will do the same for the other vehicles that at that time are in the market in in my sweet spot.
Apparently that puts me in with about 75% of the car consumers in the classes noted.
Historically, the BMW stands an excellent chance of being the lowest TCO under these conditions.
The BMW badge seems to all but guarantee a high residual, hence paying for the badge takes on the meaning that it is a "discount coupon."
Long timers here know I have been a screaming voice in the wilderness for Audi -- practically shilling for them (but not really.)
I am not "pro BMW," I am in favor of the best (at a price point) value, performance, safety, content, etc I can get. I am rooting for GM and the CTS -- but "IF" a 5 series BMW and a CTS are leased at a similar TCO for the term noted above, I believe most consumers would opt for the BMW.
Ditto if BMW and Audi are switched and ditto again if the same can be said about Mercedes. For others it would be the same thing for an Infiniti or a Lexus.
Cadillac has apparently moved the CTS up, substantially. In the marketplace that is here now, however, it sometimes seems MSRP is only slightly relevant -- people (about 75% of them) want to know the amount of the monthly check they will have to write for the next 3 years, period.
For this 75% of us, I suspect paying for the badge, if indeed that is what it is, is a good thing, because it has tended to slash the price of "ownership."
Cadillac, without some similar programs, may find itself having a car that everyone wants but few are willing to pay for considering the scenario I have laid out.
I am not shilling for BMW or Mercedes, at least I don't mean to be. I am looking at this from a marketing perspective given the current realities. If "we" think BMWs are overpriced, it can only be because we have stopped looking once we see the sticker price.
These days, apparently, the sticker price is not what people are using to evaluate their acquisitions.
For $600 and change per month, for a CTS or one of the overpriced cars, I would certainly suspect many if not most would opt not for the Cadillac.
Often wrong and never uncertain, I remain. :confuse:
Apparently, BMW subsidizes more than GM or Ford. I even posted a link.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_49/c4012012.htm
For those of us that purchase to own, I don't see a Bimmer being cheaper than a Caddy or an Infiniti.
Back to the Caddy... when's the Bluetooth one coming out again?
It is true that a sub-vented lease may offer artificially high or low numbers to entice a customer into buying.
Yet, no company is so big that it can lose money or every deal and "make it up in volume."
If -- and this is unknown TODAY -- a $45K car is more expensive to lease for X time, than a $50K car, it is likely the $45K car will be more expensive to buy and own, unless the car is kept until it is fully depreciated. Of course what happens is that the car with the higher residual retains its value longer than the other one.
The difference may prove immaterial to you but in terms of an asset on a balance sheet, it is possible (and sometimes probable) that the car with the high residual may actually cost less than the one with the lower residual.
Most folks will NOT pay $650 per month for a $45K car if there is a $50K car offered for the same money, especially if the latter comes complete with full, free, maintenance for 4 years or 50K miles.
A $45K Acura at ~$865/mo when a $48K Bimmer is ~$650 is not a compelling position for the Acura sales person to be in (when he reveals the Acura's residual is but 47% when the Bimmers is 61%.)
Cadillac, I am certain, will rise to this issue with the new CTS -- once the initial buzz subsides. Remember when the 300 came out? Local Chrysler dealers were charging over sticker and even had the gall to put a line item on the new sticker called "ADP." Additional Dealer Profit.
Now the lease programs on the 2007 300's are really attractive.
My assumption, and that is all that it is, is that the CTS (since the majority of the customers who drive them rent them) will be subvented either by discounts, artificially low money factors (including 0%) and/or high residuals.
In the past Cadillac supported low lease payments with high residuals, somewhat to their dismay, since it made the leases almost impossible to terminate early.
One of my co workers had a 2004 Cadillac and GM sent her a get outta jail (up to 5 months) coupon -- which she promptly applied to a 2007 CTS (on a 39 month lease/ 18K miles for a low number beginning with a $4!)
Sometimes, if there are any business deductions especially, a lease is not imprudent.
Sometimes it is. :shades:
To do this, the product has to be "great," and the "deal" also has to be darn near magnetic.
GM can make this happen -- possibly with this car.
Can't wait.
I suppose they'll force you to get the stiffer suspension and teeth-rattling lower profile tires to get the DI engine.
The thing I hate most about my Intrigue is the harsh ride over even small bumps and road undulations.
In the "old days" cars were often offered with sport or "performance" suspensions. Remember the Impala, then the Impala SS was offered, then the Caprice, etc etc?
The SS was, from at least the suspension point of view, only different from the base Impala by virtue of stiffer coil springs and "heavy duty" hydraulic shocks. Perhaps there were "anti-roll bars" perhaps they were larger than the ones on the standard Impala, perhaps there was a front or a rear anti-sway bar, perhaps even one at both ends.
These Super Sport versions rode much more harshly than the standard versions, and, frankly, they didn't handle THAT much better.
Ever stiffer springs, struts, shocks, whatever did not impart much of anything "super" to these cars because the cars were NOT very stiff.
Over the years the cars have become stiffer and stiffer and stiffer and the ride has actually improved -- as has the handling.
Couple today's super stiff chassis with some modern design springs, struts, bushings, shocks (or whatever) and active and passive roll bars, air suspension bits, semi-active dual diagonal hydraulic anti-roll bars, Magna ride, bigger wheels, bigger tires, term insurance for your wife, and so on and we have reached something of a point in time where we can buy cars that can have both compliant rides AND performance capabilities at the same time.
I am not assuming anything about anyone's personal seat of their pants impressions. But, I have noticed some people who have driven "loose" NOT STIFF, that is, chassis based cars for years believe stiff chassis cars "ride rough." Only after driving both and back to back time and again do some folks actually start to seek ever stiffer chassis cars.
The stiffer the better for RIDE and HANDLING. We can only hope Cadillac has made the new CTS Über stiff.
The Intrigues, perhaps were softened, but I would assume the softening was NOT due to chassis stiffness -- but, if it was a result of stiffening the chassis, one could assume later Intrigues handled better.
My old 74 Fleetwood had flexibility designed in to help absorb bumps, which it did quite well. High speed handling was another matter, but it was fine for everyday driving and always felt stable (except on ice & snow).
Rumor has it the STS will be discontinued after 2009, but I hope they won't wait that long to put Magna Ride on the CTS. I would consider paying $1500 extra to have good handling and a smooth, stable ride, but due to middle age, I would rather have a smooth ride and adequate handling, if I have to chose. That's why Buicks are softly sprung, and the young folks complain. Just wait a few years.
I wouldn't have bought the Intrigue if I'd test-driven it on the bumpy roads I use everyday, a mistake I won't make again. I looked at the Regal, but there was no comfortable place for my left foot.
MagneRide is not mentioned in anything I have seen from GM:
Some production ( as well as show car ) details on the V6 and V8 versions here:
http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07chicago/brands/pontiac/inde- x.html
What is your source for this info?
Thanks,
- Ray
Supposing that if the V8 is called a GT ( seems likely ), and given the current model designations Pontiac seems to have ‘standardized on’, that would appear to offer 2 higher equipment levels – a GTP and GXP. This seems to present the opportunity for Pontiac to bring the equipment & interior refinement ( ? ) level up. And add more Luxury features. Twice. In the future. Perhaps to include MagneRide at some point in the future?
If the 502 hp HSV edition from Australia, is brought over here then Magneride is one of the features on that car. They said it would be on a limited edition model. The article is from about 4-5 months ago.
Now lets get this one back on the 08' CTS. Any more news on the CTS-V and when it might debut ?
Rocky
Cadillac, Buick, Saab, GMC, all get the best parts.
The Chevy, Pontiac, Saturn, get as good parts but if the part is a hair off in spec but will pass Chevy spec it goes to Chevy. A hair off might mean a millionth of a millimeter so the performance of the part isn't jeapordized but the tolerances of Cadillac and like brands are indeed the highest. A fuel injector going into 3.6 Chevy might not pass 3.6 Cadillac specs is all.
Rocky
P.S.
Hummer, I don't recall where they sit on the tolerance board spectrum
I think a mid-sized wagon would be just ideal for me. GM doesn't make one now in the US (Opel has a Vectra wagon that Saturn may one day import). Perhaps the CTS wagon could start a resurgence in US wagons. Right now the Germans and Swedes own the market, which is small but lucrative. Those MB wagons were very popular in toney suburbs in the 80's.
I do prefer the door latches on the current car, however. The placement of the window controls also worries me, but it's 5 hours to Atlanta to see it in person this weekend, when I should be doing my taxes.
I'm glad to see more poly-chromatic interiors. I'm tired of the multiple shades of gray I've had the last 23 years (which is better than all one shade of gray).
I wonder how dark the Mulberry leather interior will be. I'm guessing it replaces black as a choice, which means it will be pretty dark.