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Comments
Fintail, you'd be surprised at how many people love Cadillac, my age. I'd say people lemko's age and younger are seeing the brand go from a grandpa's car, to a "hip" love to have brand.
Rocky
When I was in my teens lemko, I drooled at the Cadillac Allante, I had to wear a "bib" to catch the drool when the 300 hp. Seville STS, and Eldorado ETC, came out 0-60 in 6.4 and 155 mph were impressive numbers back in the day. Both vehicles also had luxurious interior, and heated seats were kinda new back in those days. You also got a premium Bose stereo, and other gadgets not found on other cars. I can still smell that Nappa leather on a 95' pearl red Eldorado, I drooled at when Grandma, was buying her 95' Riveria. I was like 16 yrs old. Grandma, let me drive her 95' Riveria sometimes to school. Then they both decided to buy me a 1992 Bonneville SSEi, and a yr or so later Grandma, wanted 4-doors instead of 2, and bought a 97' GMC Jimmy SLT, which I begged to take to school on occasions.
So yeah like lemko, I've always been a fan of luxury vehicles and most preferrably the Cadillac brand. :shades:
Rocky
I looked at Cadillac, like you probably did Mercedes Benz, back in the day -COOL :shades:
The brand image is amazingly more youthful and active today than 15 years ago.
I agree, it appeals to more youth today, than 15 yrs ago.
I think that is due to the introduction of the aggressive CTS, and more liberal styling of the other makes in the line-up.
I just remember the couple of whitewalled DeVilles my grandpa had, and the black whitewalled downsized Eldo driven by a grandma of a girl I knew. Those are my youthful Caddy memories.
Are you sure your not much older than me pal ? :P
Rocky
What the heck is a "full Floridas" ???? :surprise:
Rocky
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Rocky
Oh, c'mon....admit it. Honda is a wonderful car company, but until they get in the game (RWD, V-8 motors) they'll always be second tier in the enthusiast category. Nothing wrong with that either, but Toyota isn't the dark side, it's the Microsoft of Cars.
DeVilles ca. late 80s and 1994, Eldo ca. 1991. Cars from your youth too..
They need RWD/SH-AWD with plenty of power, which can either be made by a 4-cylinder, 6-cylinder. I've seen lottsa V-8's that are dogs compared to some V-6's and 4-cylinders.
Nothing wrong with that either, but Toyota isn't the dark side, it's the Microsoft of Cars.
I'm not even sure what this means. :confuse:
Rocky
What is the Cadillac of cars? hahahaha
Rocky
I was a big fan after that. :shades:
Rocky
I never really got hung up with status, though. I just preferred a big car with a big engine.
Rocky
My grandma liked Oldsmobile because she saw it as less of an "old" car, even though it had "Old" in the name. My grandpa drove big Chryslers until they went to FWD, then went to GM, Caddy specifically.
Yeah I agree.
My grandma liked Oldsmobile because she saw it as less of an "old" car, even though it had "Old" in the name.
lol, well I guess that all depends on what you define as "Old"
My grandpa drove big Chryslers until they went to FWD, then went to GM, Caddy specifically.
Well back in the day Grandpa's didn't overspend there money on McMansions like todays baby boomers, thus they could afford a nice car like Cadillac or Lincoln. Our generation won't be able to retire, because they will still be paying on their McMansion, because it has a 40+ yr. note, which they will refiance once they hit retirement age so they can afford to keep it.
So Kia' could become the "Cadillac" of the old folks of my generation. :sick:
Rocky
Better Kia than Chery...
Rocky
What has kept me loyal to Toy/Hon/Subes is rock-solid, unbelievable reliability, even at very advanced ages like well beyond 200K miles. That and their consistency - sit down in one now and you will find a great deal of predictability even if your last experience with one was 10 or 15 years ago. If you LIKE what these brands do, which I do, then you should know they do it extremely well.
And in case anyone is thinking now would be a good time to start the flames and the statistical references and all the rest of it, I am only doing exactly what most of us do - going again with what we had before and liked, and which worked well for us. It certainly reinforces this theme that every time I have strayed from my Fave 3, I have got into a car which has been a letdown in so many ways, I lost count. But I haven't strayed often, so I will be the first to admit I am basing my decisions on limited and anecdotal data (with a sprinkling of CR thrown in - I know, don't GET you started, right?! :-P).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rocky
Although right now I am on my first Toyota (well, Lexus) but I think unless something dramatic happens in the next decade or so I would stay loyal to Honda and Toyota. Primarily because I personally have good experience with Honda in the past and My dad on the other hand has good experience with Toyota (He wouldn't buy anything except Toyota). So far the Lexus is treating me very well on both the performance side and dealer/maintanence experience side. By the way thing goes, Acura needs to have a kick-rear next gen TL in order to win my business back or the next IS turns out to be a huge dissapointment :P .
I have always like BMW but just can't justify myself to spend more while I can get almost the same with Acura and Lexus. Was considering the 330i but ultimately the ugliness of its interior shifted me toward the IS. Although I know I gave up the BMW handling by going with Lexus but the 60 extra HP is well worth it.
Also agree with you on the Porsche, if one day I decide to go European I think it'll be a Porsche. Panamera looks like it'll be a winner and if Porsche is able keep its price below $100K it might as well be my first car once I turn 40. Cayman S will no doubt to be one of the cars I'll be looking at in 5 years when I am about to replace my current ride. However, although I like the sexiness of a 2-seater I think the practicality side of me will tell me to get a sedan. Maybe it'll come down to be between BMW 3-series, Acura TL, Lexus IS and Porsche Cayman S. The way I am looking is: I can't really go wrong with either one of those.
But the 1970s were turbulent decade, and by the late 1970s, I was already aware that Mercedes-Benz was the new aspirational car.
Oddly, at that time Oldsmobile was in the position that Honda and Toyota are in today - a car that was a cut above the mass market, with a good quality reputation. The Ninety-Eight and Toronado gave added luster to the line. The reputation from the Rocket V-8 and Hurst Olds models still lingered, and the huge success of the Cutlass Supreme added an aura of youth to the division.
Unfortunately, the Oldsmobile Diesel, the X-car Omega and relentless badge engineering (Monza-based Starfire - enough said) helped bring down Oldsmobile by the mid-1980s.
Buick was a car for well-to-do retirees or near retirees, but the marque was not burdened with the "Fred Mertz" image that it now has. Buicks were driven by vital, financially comfortable seniors who were ENJOYING retirement.
The Fusion is also supposed to be quite good in this area.
-Overall sales experience from introductions to driving the
car off of the dealership lot
-Initial build quality of the vehicle
-Dependability/reliability of the vehicle
-Service department's behaviors(e.g. vehicle knowledge and
friendliness of staff to name a couple of things)
-A good parts department is a must for me, because I prefer
to use OEM parts unless it's totally unnecessary to do so
So with this said, I have had much, much better luck with cars and dealerships of the following brands:
-Toyota
-Lexus
-Honda
My experiences with cars and dealerships from Ford, GM and Nissan have all been anything but positive with one exception back in the late 70s. :mad:
The Toyota, Lexus and Honda vehicles we have owned all have required mostly routine maintenance thus far with two exceptions. One of our Honda sedans had to have a left, front wheel bearing replaced at 110,000 miles of operation. Our other Honda sedan had to have a new catalytic converter at 111,200 miles of operation. The Toyota and Lexus vehicles have only required routine maintenance with no exceptions whatsoever. Just the replacement of fluids, filters, belts, tires, wiper blades and your other typical wear items such as front brake pads. I simply could not be any more satisfied!
Maybe I'll give a domestic brand another chance at some point in the future. It's hard for me to say at this point. But it won't be within the next three years or so at least. I want to see some three year reliability ratings for newer domestic vehicles such as Fusion/Milan, Cobalt, Impala, etc. before I possibly purchase one used.
Ron M.
Rocky
Rocky
You got that right Rocky! You'll be pleased to hear though Rocky that the one good domestic experience that I had was with a GM product back in the late 70s. A 1977 Pontiac Trans-AM. You and my oldest son would get along great. He's a big GM fan, although he does have a penchant for Nissan Z cars(240Z through 350Z).
Ron M.
That is sad your best domestic experience was like 28 yrs. ago. :mad: I'm going to be 28 yrs. old next month. :surprise:
A 1977 Pontiac Trans-AM. You and my oldest son would get along great. He's a big GM fan, although he does have a penchant for Nissan Z cars(240Z through 350Z).
How old is your son ? What GM, vehicles does he like ?
Sorry GM, dealerships have pooped on you pal. :mad:
If you ever get pooped on again call a GM, customer service representative to report the dealership so it can be documented is what I was told.
Rocky
By the way, I'm currently working on some Finite Element Analysis(structural engineering analysis) for a couple of GM-related projects at my employer. It's new business for us and so far GM has been really good to work with. The projects are related to ABS and airbag modules.
Ron M.
Thankfully, he is young enough to be entering an era where GM, is doing a good job of offering products that todays youth might want to own. Kinda like when you were his age.
GM, and Ford, are doing a much better job in product appeal. :shades:
Rocky
Maybe it was because on my Dad's side they retired earlier, and I don't ever remember them working? Anyway, on my Mom's side, Grandmom and Granddad had a '72 Impala and a '73 Chevy pickup, and while Granddad actually had retired, he still did a lot of stuff to keep busy, like gardening, mechanic work, etc. And Grandmom kept working up through 1994.
Even when my grandparents bought their 1985 Buick LeSabre, I really didn't think of it as an old people's car. Even with its whitewalls, wire wheels, and vinyl roof. Back then though, Buicks did seem to be much more broadly appealing. While a lot of senior citizens were buying them, you still had younger people as well. True, you didn't have very many 18 year olds walking in and specifying a LeSabre Collector's edition, but Buicks weren't just for the blue haired set.
One car that I thought was truly a jack of all trades for Buick was the Regal coupe. You could equip it with a vinyl roof, wire wheels, and hubcaps if you so desired, or you could get a Grand National and go eat Corvettes for lunch. Or anything in between. The Regal, like the Cutlass Supreme, was almost chameleon-like in its adaptability to different tastes.
By 1985 though, the T-bird/Cougar had been out for a couple years, and they concentrated more on the sportier end of the market, eschewing the older crowd. Notice that it's pretty rare to see an '83-86 T-bird/Cougar with wire hubcaps, and I don't think you could even get a vinyl roof from the factory, although there were plenty of dealers and aftermarket suppliers ready to put one on, if that's what turned you on.
I think for me, the turning point for Olds and Buick was when they started to go more aerodynamic in the mid-late 80's. Whereas the aerodynamic styles revitalized Ford and Chrysler, for the most part I don't think they worked as well with Buick or Olds. I thought the 1991 Park Avenue was a looker, but didn't think the 1992 LeSabre was as nicely styled. And the W-body Regal sedan/coupe just left me cold, as did the Century when it went to the Regal-esque grille and composite headlights. The 1992 Skylark was also an odd little thing, and sent sales plummeting to something like 40% of the 1991 level.
Around that time Olds was delivering a mixed message. On one hand they were screaming "This is NOT your father's Oldsmobile", but suddenly their top selling car WAS your father's Oldsmobile. Or maybe even your grandmother's cousin's...the Cutlass Ciera! And cars like the 1991 Ninety-Eight and Achieva sedan certainly delivered a mixed message. The Achieva coupe wasn't bad though. The Cutlass Supreme coupe was also a nice looking car, but perhaps too futuristic looking for Olds buyers. And the sedan was an odd looking thing. I kinda liked the 1992-99 Olds 88, but the public pretty much overlooked it, preferring the more formal looking LeSabre or the sportier Bonneville.
Then, in typical GM fashion, as soon as they got Olds to look promising again with products like the Aurora, Intrigue, and Alero, they let the axe drop, letting Oldsmobile die slowly like a chicken with its head cut off, still running around with no direction or hope until every last bit of life had been expired from it.
Wouldn't that make you more loyal to the dealer who may sell more that one make of car?
Having a reliable and good quality auto brand such as Honda or Acura has been enhanced by the courtesy and respect we receive from the service departments of a Honda dealer (20 years) and Acura dealer (6 years).
I don't know about anyone else but to me talking about how reliable and the quality of a car is then talk about ones experience in the service department seems to be a bit contradictory.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The sales experience is such a small portion of the experience of owning the car and the dealership is seperate from the manufacturer (you don't stop buying Campells soup because you don't like shopping at the Piggly Wiggly). Because of that to me the sales experience will not have much influence in if I will return to that make. It will have an influence if I return to that dealer but not to the manufacturer.
Secondly since it is less expensive and far more convienent to have maintence done at my trusted local mechanic I only use the dealerships service department for warranty and recall work. So the more I know about the service department the more likely the car is a POS.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Maybe they gave them free donuts and coffee while they did an oil change :shades:
Bingo!!!
Jokes aside, this is what happened yesterday...
Around 5:45 pm I was walking toward to my car on a shopping center parking lot. Immediately I saw something was loose from the undercarriage around the left rear tire. After a close examination I found out it was the mud guard and nothing else was damaged. However, since I am driving to Orlando this Saturday I called the local Lexus dealer up to see if I can schedule a time next day (Friday) for them to fix it. After I explained the situation the Lexus service consultant told me to bring the car over anytime at my convenience. He said I don't need to make an appointment for something like this. Out of my curiosity I asked him what time does the service department close and he told me 7 pm. I then asked him if I can be there in 15 mins can he fix it for me today and he told me no problem.
The conclusion of this story is that I had my car in at 6 pm and left the dealership before 6:30 pm (with the mud guard fixed, of course). All this with free of charge and I had a cup of capuccino and a chance to look at a few 07' models. :shades:
My point is, this is the kind of service that'll keep me loyal to a certain brand and dealership experience doesn't automatically relate to low reliability.
PS, I didn't purchase the car from that dealership (I moved right after purchase the car). So this shows that it's not only the dealership, it's also the brand.
For instance, say you have a mid-sized sedan, but you need a minivan or a big pickup truck for you next vehicle. If you're a Suzuki or Subaru customer, you're outta luck and pretty much have to leave the brand. Customer Loyalty is pretty much impossible at that point.
The bigger guys, with a product in every category, may have a natural advantage there. Toyota could sell you a Sienna or a Tundra.
Suzuki would have to bid you farewell, pretty much.
-juice
Olds, with the 95 Aurora, was getting some nice products, but Olds was not the only division at GM in need of better stuff. Oldsmobile's managment may have needed more support, but did they use what they had as well as they could have? I did own a 98 Aurora, and while it had some nice features, the interior had too much hard plastic, the door panels are a prime example.
I looked at a 2004 low mileage SRX yesterday. The interior does not look like much (door panels and dash), but the dash has a very soft feel to it. I did not touch the door, so am not sure what the feel is like there, but the materials looked like the dash stuff. If it were not for the black interior, I would consider trading, although without the nav probably not.
I don't know what GM dumped Olds for, but I think that either Buick or Olds had to go because there really has been almost no real difference in the basic cars that they have marketed. Certainly there were styling differences, but the top of the line Electra/Park_Avenue Buick and the top of the line Olds_98/Aurora were basically the same car. The big difference was that Buick out sold the Olds division with only 3 platforms to Oldsmobiles 5 platforms.
For instance, say you have a mid-sized sedan, but you need a minivan or a big pickup truck for you next vehicle. If you're a Suzuki or Subaru customer, you're outta luck and pretty much have to leave the brand. Customer Loyalty is pretty much impossible at that point.
The bigger guys, with a product in every category, may have a natural advantage there. Toyota could sell you a Sienna or a Tundra.
Suzuki would have to bid you farewell, pretty much.
I actually think this is more of a problem than a solution. Every manufacturer doesn't need an entry in every class, they need a few good entries in selected classes. I don't want a Saab SUV, thats not what I think of when I think Saab (or Porsche for that matter..who doesn't have a minivan yet, btw). If I wanted a truck or SUV, I would look to GM, DC, or Ford (in no particular order). If I wanted a minivan, I would look at DC and HonYota.
I think car companies need to quit trying to be all things to all people and be a few things to a few people. Its not about market share as a make anymore, its about market share by model, and being profitable on those levels.
-juice
Plus, you're right on target with the lack of dealers. My closest dealer now is 100 miles. That's why since 2001, I've performed all maintenance on our existing two classic 900s. For those with no experience with SAABs, and looking at buying new one, I would respectfully suggest you consider another brand.
SAABs have really never been exceptionally reliable vehicles, after all, they've always used quite a bit of British pieces & parts which kind of says it all. All of the Finnish, German, and Swedish parts, on the other hand, were always were reliable. Ironically, one of the most troublesome parts in a 99, classic 900, or 9000 was the steering rack. It was a GM-Saginaw unit, just as was the PS steering pump on the 900.
SAABs - Long-lived yes, but there is a distinct difference between this and reliability, hence the lack of loyalty of some previous SAAB owners.
This worked when the cars were bigger. Unfortunately, on the shorter, front-wheel-drive platform, the LeSabre looks truncated (the rounded rear fenders certainly don't help in this regard), while the Park Avenue looks "just right."