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What Keeps You Loyal To A Brand?

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    nv, it will sell just fine bcause it will have a cummins in it.

    I'd rather have either one of the GMers. ;)

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Patiot Jeep, made by a German company. Kinda ironic, is it not?
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The latest Civic Coupe is a very attractive automobile. That said, I sat in one and the feeling was all wrong. I can not stand the A pillars in the way and dash which must be a mile deep, and no sight of a hood anywhere. Guess I am not a fan of the cab forward in smaller cars.

    The look of the coupe however, is very nice, IMHO.

    The previous Si was the strange one.

    -Loren
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Maybe they can also build the Kubelwagen and the Schwimmwagen?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oh yeah, the Thing. I bet the Thing is now worth some money. Must be a couple times a year, I still see one on the road. Germany also had some Fords during the WWII, from what I hear.

    So poor old Willy's Jeep got the contract for the trailers, and others got the big contract to build their design, I take it. They simply did not have the capacity to build all those Jeeps. I rode in a friends old Jeep, a long time ago, while hunting at Fort Hunter Liggett, and I found it amazing how the gearing kept that underpowered Jeep crawling on up a mountain. I am sure, at the same time, those in V6 Scouts where laughing at those old relics still in use mountain climbing.
    -Loren
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    ...loyal to a brand.
    Cars were about the cutting edge until a certain magazine started handing out red donuts and circles to their (toddler?) readers.
    Cars should be reliable, but should evoke emotion too!
    They should also be innovative!

    Here is one that is all three!

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

    Now THAT is cutting-edge!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    What model is this and where in the heck are you getting all these pics of the 08' CTS in the other forum ?????

    Are you leaking photo's from GM HQ :P Who do you think you are Sandy Berger :P

    Rocky
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    I only had one picture of the 2008 CTS in the other forum. The rest are of the SLS.

    That particular model above is a Cadillac STS with demonstrator LED headlamps and a digital instrument display.
    Found it all on the internet.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well I'm impressed with your research ;)

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I knew they had fired Navistar after the 04 6.0L DieselDisaster - but didn't know they were going to Cummins for the motor. Is it a V or Inline? Cummins loves inlines, you know...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I'm not sure which one it will be. I'm sure its whatever Dodge uses now. Dodge OTOH is getting a CAT diesel which will replace the Cummins. Ford owns Cummins and all those Cummins fans will now drive a Ford. ;)

    I'd personally would like to see GM, use Navistar and install the Powerstroke. Nothing performs like the "Strokes" for acceleration and towing power. ;)

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Didn't know Ford owned Cummins, but that's what Dodge uses today. I personally liked the Navistar too, but the 04 issues damaged that contract, evidently irreparably.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    That is true........I've heard the Ford going to Cummins diesel rumor 3 or 4 years ago.

    Rocky
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    As to the original question - Nothing does. I'm not brand loyal at all.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Satisfaction with an existing vehicle keeps me loyal, not that I don't shop around - but having liked 94 Explorer so well, is mainly what made me repeat the transaction in 97, 98, 02, 04 and now 06. I still see nothing better for the job I need done. And they've all been good trucks.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Guess the reason DamlierChrysler doesn't use it's own Mercedes diesel is due to Americans love of the Cummins brand. Seems odd not to use the house brand, since they invented the diesel engine.
    -Loren
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    That'll change soon enough.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They're letting the Escape go stale. I guess they want to force customers to get the Edge instead. So why update the compact SUV when you can make more profit on the mid-size one?

    Escape does a lot of volume, so I bet this lack of updates backfires. Give it the 3.5l V6 and some rear disc brakes, at least.

    -juice
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well, plus, from my vantage point, I like the Escape, I hate the Edge. The stinkin' cowl is way too high, I feel like I'm in a bathtub and can't see over the dash. I hate that feeling, so the Edge, MKX is out for me.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    juice,

    I do agree the escape needs a makeover. The Sport Trac at least received one. I dunno why Ford is letting such a popular vehicle like die ? It makes no sense to me. I guess it's not the first time they've ever done this. If I was Ford, I'd do a total makeover of the Taurus, wouldn't you ???????

    Rocky
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think they were counting on the Edge to take over those sales, and at a higher price point.

    I dunno, it lacks a 3rd row, which customers demand even though they don't use them. And it's less fuel efficient, and heavier.

    I'm not sure the Edge will ever do the volume that the Escape did.

    Once again Ford ignores a volume seller (see Taurus, Ranger).

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    If I was Ford, I'd do a total makeover of the Taurus, wouldn't you ???????

    I dunno if it would really pay Ford to directly replace the Taurus at this point. They have the Fusion, which is a little smaller, but about as roomy inside. I'm sure published figures might not bear this out, but the Fusion feels like it has more usable room because it's a bit more slab-sided than the Taurus. In the Taurus, I had to lean inward a bit to feel comfortable.

    Then they have the 500, which is a little bigger than the Taurus on the outside, and much bigger on the inside. And finally, they have the Freestyle, which I guess sort of takes over for the Taurus wagon.

    Now it seems to me though, that the Edge might overlap some with the Freestyle.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The freestyle will go away completly once the Fairline concept comes out in production form.

    Then fords people mover line should look like this...

    Crossovers
    Compact = Escape hopefuly completly redesigned
    Midsize 5 passenger = Edge
    Midsize 7-8 passenger = Fairline concept yet to be named

    Truck based
    Midsize 7 passenger = Explorer
    Fullsize = Expedition

    Although I have heard rumoers the Explorer might go to a cross over platform so not sure what happens then.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Although I have heard rumoers the Explorer might go to a cross over platform so not sure what happens then.

    I've heard that too - so I guess the Expedition will be the only real tow vehicle in the Ford SUV stable.....pity.... having had 6 Explorer/Mountaineers, and would be willing to have another, since the 06 we have is the best yet....
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Perhaps Ford is doing the same thing as GM, waiting to see how the mid/full size crossovers do. We already saw the 7 passenger SUV's go away, even before the Lamdas came out, and the buick version is gone also. Now there are strong rumors that the short versions (Trailblazer/Envoy) are not being refreshed. The full size SUV's are so strong and the crossovers seem to look pretty good per the press that the midsize real SUV's may not be needed.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    The Fairlane will be a CUV?
    Why???

    The only Fairlanes I knew were 2-door and 4-door sedans.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Just because a vehicle is a unibody with fully independent suspension doesn't keep it from towing.

    Jeeps have been unibody for years with decent tow ratings above 5,000 lbs.

    The Range Rover is a pure unibody with full independent suspension and can tow 7,700 lbs. I am sure they could make it tow a fair amount with optional packages.

    RE: Fairlane

    The Fairlane concept was just the name of the concept. They will not call the production vehicle based off of it a Fairlane. THe production vehcile does not have a name yet.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    so I guess the Expedition will be the only real tow vehicle in the Ford SUV stable

    If Ford has any sense, the next-gen Territory will also be the next-gen Explorer- good for light and medium towing and leaving the double-wide horse trailers to the Expedition.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I finally heard the term "crossover" in a TV ad yesterday - Ford's commercial for the Edge calls it "the (some superlative) crossover this year!"

    With the pork in the newest crossovers (Edge, the Lambdas) putting them up well over two tons (and close to 5000 pounds in Outlook's case) in curb weight, I shudder to think what a next-gen Trailblazer or Explorer would weigh. The pork is OUT OF CONTROL! :-P

    I think they have made a wise choice there - neglecting the midsize truck-based SUVs for the larger crossover models instead. It's where the market is going. The only challenge will be standing out in the SEA of new models in this arena.

    This is the year ToyHon fans get THEIR new models as well - both Pilot and Highlander get enlarged and renewed this fall.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    YEah the pork is out of control at this point.

    Think about this a loaded XC90 V8 weighs about 4,600 lbs empty.

    Ignore that the Edge and XC90 don't compete on price at all.

    A Edge has a curb weight of about 4,100 lbs.

    Thats just crazy the slight differance in weight for a vehicle that has so much more capablity and is more solidly built.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Just because a vehicle is a unibody with fully independent suspension doesn't keep it from towing.

    True, but I think a lot of it depends on how beefy the unibody structure is in the first place. Something like a Jeep or Range Rover was built from the ground up to be, first and foremost, a TRUCK. Unibody or not, it's beefy. A lot of crossovers are little more than glorified compact/midsized wagons with more ground clearance and higher rooflines.

    FWIW, Chrysler has been building unitized cars since 1960, and I'm not aware of them having any towing problems. But then, the way they used to build 'em, they still had sub-frames, both front and rear, and often ended up being stronger than a body-on-frame counterpart!

    I'd imagine one issue with an independent rear suspension would be higher cost when something does break. And since there's more complexity and more pieces, there's more to break?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah you have to design the unibody and the subframes around it to handle the towing stress. The Range Rover has three huge subframes under it and then unibody itself is incredibly heavy. All put together it is stronger then a regular BOF design and almost as heavy.

    Not sure about how the Jeeps are set up although I know the old XJs were a little thin in places.

    I think there are enough large IRS equiped SUVs around now that as long as you are towing sub 10,000 lbs you don't need a solid axle.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    And at that weight, Edge is a FIVE SEAT crossover - it doesn't even have the third row! Amazing. 21st century rigidity, gobs and gobs of excessive power and every safety feature in the book, fuel economy stuck in the 1960s....

    :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    And at that weight, Edge is a FIVE SEAT crossover - it doesn't even have the third row! Amazing. 21st century rigidity, gobs and gobs of excessive power and every safety feature in the book, fuel economy stuck in the 1960s....

    Yeah, 4100 pounds is awfully chunky IMO for something like the Edge. My buddy's '06 Xterra is around 4200-4300 pounds I think, but it's also body-on-frame, 4wd, and more of a cut-down Armada/Titan than a bulked-up cute ute. You'd almost expect something like that to be heavy.

    And wow, almost 76 inches wide. The Edge is a chunky little thing! I think that's about as wide as my '76 LeMans or '79 NYer are!

    What kind of fuel economy is the Edge supposed to get? I just noticed that Edmund's has the AWD Edge SE at 4282 pounds curb weight and 5340 pounds GVWR. That seems to be cutting it a bit close IMO. Put 5 people my size in it and you're technically overloading it.

    Maybe that wouldn't be so bad, though. I've overloaded my Intrepid a few times, with no ill consequences (at least none that have reared their head yet). I wonder how far overloaded you'd have to go before something broke?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "What kind of fuel economy is the Edge supposed to get?"

    A whopping 17/24. Woo-hoo! Not that it's notably worse than the field or anything.

    I expect truck-based models like XTerra to weigh several hundred pounds more than same-size crossovers, that's the price you pay for the extra durability/ruggedness of those vehicles. But pork in the curb weight is an epidemic in today's fleet.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    17/24 actually isn't bad considering the Edge's weight. That's about how much my truck weighs, and the only way I'd get that kind of economy these days would be to have it towed behind a Prius! :)

    But yeah, point well taken. Why does the thing have to weigh that much? While that's not bad economy given the thing's weight, it's still kind of a bad weight, given the thing's size!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't get the hefty weight either, especially given the lack of a 3rd row.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    Well the Edge is related to the Mazda CX-9 (something I didn't know until I just looked up some Edge info on Edmunds), and the CX-9 is a porker as well. So who do we blame here, Ford, Mazda, or both of them? Which of the two companies had more input into the platform design?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    CX-9 is a rebadged Ford. Yet Mazda went the extra mile to give CX-9 a third row, something Ford apparently overlooked with the Edge. :confuse:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    THe CX-9 is on an even larger version of the Edge platform. They are both loosely based on the Mazda 6 Platform but the CX-9 is stretched even more then the edge.

    So really the CX-9 is a Mazda 6 after it can into contact with some Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Ooze...
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    check out the stats for minivan comparison.

    2006 minivans
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    and as we all know, TMNT ooze weighs a goodly amount, close to a half ton in fact. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Oh yes very dense stuff. Probably weighs half a ton per gallon or so. :surprise:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    STUTTGART, Germany — Who you gonna call?

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119282

    Rocky
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Perfect car for Martians. ;)

    -juice
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    to Ford for now. Having owned Ford products since I was 16 years old and never having any really bad issues, I'll keep buying Ford. Kind of funny how Ford has this reputation of "Fix or repair Daily". Even though Fords have better reliability than most Euro brands, GM, Subaru and I believe Nissan. I am not totally loyal, I look at the Passat and think...Hmmm.... :shades:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Yea but the passat is a VW and their reliability is down at the bottom of the pile. Stick with the Ford!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,652
    to be considered "eccentric" when they break, as opposed to plain old "unreliable". Y'know, how like when a Jag, Benz, Rolls, BMW, etc gets cranky, it's being "eccentric" or "that's part of its personality", but when it happens to a Ford or Plymouth or Chevy, it's simply a piece of junk? :P

    BTW, are Passats really that bad? I thought the only really bad V-dubs were the Jettas and Golfs or whatever it was they were building in Mexico?

    A buddy of mine has a 2001.5 Passat (that mid-year changeover model), and I'd imagine he has about 150,000 miles or more on it. It went through a cranky period of about a year, where sometimes it would refuse to start. The dealer tried everything under the sun to get it to run. It turned out to be some sensor that detected the thing as being in gear when he tried to start it, instead of neutral. In the old days, I think that thing was called a "Neutral Safety Switch"? Probably something more complex these days! Anyway, other than that, I don't think he's had any problems with it, and that problem time was more a result of the dealer not fixing it right, than VW muffing it up to begin with.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I always had good luck with my Ford products. I was pretty much raised in a Ford family. In fact, my first car was an original 1986 Taurus that I drove till about 130 thousand miles with no issues. That car ended up getting sold to my mom's co-worker who was still driving it in (I believe) 2003 with 300k on it. I had a 93' Probe GT for 100 thousand miles that needed a couple of wheel bearings and an O2 sensor over the years but nothing but OTB otherwise.

    My parents for some time actually had (2) Borncos, on was an original 1984 XLT that I remember them buying it brand new. The other, which they still have is a 1996 EB, loaded with the 351. Unfortunately, my mom hit a tree with the 84' a few years back which totalled it (230k miles) and the 96' is still going strong with 170k on it. They don't drive it much with the current gas prices, but it has been very good to them.

    I'd buy a Ford if I were looking. :shades:
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