Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

ballistic · January 2004

I smoked for 22 years, not because of any phony blame-anything-but-myself alleged physiological addiction, but because, like every smoker who is at all honest, I loved it. Every time I touched a match to a smoke, it was a conscious, voluntary, pleasure-seeking action. I was no more addicted to tobacco than I am to candy and ice cream, both of which I love and consume by the ton.

Anyone who knows me would agree that I'm seriously deficient in the self-control arena. Nevertheless, in one instant on November 26, 1986, I went from smoker to nonsmoker when I saw my two-year-old daughter begin to imitate me. I loved her far more than I loved tobacco. End of story.

Powerful and uncontrollable addiction? Hogwash. People who smoke and blame it on unbreakable addiction lie to themselves and everyone who listens, every single day. They love it, just as I did - they simply refuse to take personal responsibility for doing what they love. Then, when things turn out badly, they want a bailout at someone else's expense.

Don't ever put me on a jury where a smoker seeks beaucoup bucks from tobacco companies.

paisan · January 2004

snow tires now. In fact I have 2 customers who are mad cause they blew 1 snow and can't get a replacement for em

-mike

kullenberg · January 2004

Once again, we're in complete agreement!

Cheers
Pat

zman · January 2004

Any way I can get up-to-date Subaru incentives online? Interested to see if I missed or gained on my decision.

-The Mudge

kullenberg · January 2004

Try this link on Edmunds
http://www.edmunds.com/incentives/RebateController?step=1&set- zip=28604&tid=edmunds.n.incentivesindex.incentives.1.1.*

p0926 · January 2004

WARNING: This is not recommended reading for those owners who don't believe in letting their gas gauge needle go below the 1/4 tank mark

Yikes!!!! How big is the Forester's gas tank? I know it holds at least 15.2 gal cause that's what I just put in! I only drove 20 miles with the low fuel light on which use to mean a 14 gal fill-up. So either the light comes on later in the new model or the XT was burning a prodigious amount of gas (or both). No doubt I'm going to have to modify my refueling habits as even I don't like pushing the envelope that far. Also, someone a while back asked how far down the gas gauge needle goes. Well I can now say with certainty that it goes much further below the E than it goes above the F. There was at least an 1/8 inch gap between the needle and the bottom of the line marking empty with the low fuel light coming on right about when the needle reaches the empty mark.

-Frank P.

P.S. I checked and the 03-04 Forester holds 15.9 gallons. I thought the previous model only held 15.2 gallons but I could be mistaken. So, I had over half a gallon left... what was I worrying about? :-)

ballistic · January 2004

In theory, you have approx 2.7 gallons (IIRC) when the low-fuel warning light comes on. I've deliberately run mine as low as I dare twice, and each time the fill-up was around 15.2 to 15.3.

I miss the incredibly accurate distance-to-empty display on our Grand Caravan. When that thing said you had 2 miles left, you could confidently drive two full miles with no sweaty armpits. But when when it displayed zero, there'd better be a gas station within coasting distance, because brother, you're bone dry. Truly amazing. The computer in our newer '97 Concorde is nowhere near as reliable.

ballistic · January 2004

Once again, we're in complete agreement!

About 12 years after I quit, we traveled to Buffalo to cheer for our daughter in a national swim championship. While there, we went to Canadian Niagra. Smoke shops there sell genuine Havanas. Hever having had that pleasure, I bought and smoked one. My wife went nuts, totally convinced that I'd be "hooked" right back onto the hyperaddictive smoking treadmill. Nonsense. One sublime cigar, and nothing since.

p0926 · January 2004

Jack- So what'd you think? The one time I smoked a Havana I got a heck of a buzz! Wonder why it is that cigars and pipes don't seem to be addictive?

-Frank P.

njswamplands · January 2004

yeah about 20 miles and your toast. i ran out on my first tank also.

nygreg · January 2004

lives on!

Greg

paisan · January 2004

I drove from allentown to philadelphia with the low-fuel light on on the SVX! I got almost 425 miles on one tank of gas, and still had 2 gallons left over.

-mike

ducktapeguy · January 2004

I know for certain that a forester will hold at least 15.7 gallons, because that's how much I filled up when i ran out of gas on the freeway. Luckily I was able to coast into a gas station around midnight. Yes I am lucky.

p0926 · January 2004

ballistic · January 2004

Jack- So what'd you think? The one time I smoked a Havana I got a heck of a buzz!

Me, too. 'Course, by then it had been 12 years since I smoked anything, so the smoke from a burning candle probably would have done it for me.

Wonder why it is that cigars and pipes don't seem to be addictive?

Well, as you've seen, I think the alleged addictiveness of cigarettes is almost entirely urban legend. That said, few cigar or pipe smokers use anywhere near as much tobacco as your average cig smoker.

troop2shos · January 2004

Most gauges are designed to read accurately in the middle of the gauge unless otherwise specified to be accurate at either end. Also, it's not prudent to run your tank near empty - especially if your fuel pump is located in the tank. Fuel is used to help keep the pump cool so fuel level in the tank is important if you don't want to cook it. Getting more sediment & condensation issues are other reasons not to run too low.

With respect to smokes, I quit once for 6 years for professional reasons & missed it every day. When this line of work ended I went back because I enjoy it...'nough said except I haven't smoked in my new XT yet.
I thoroughly enjoy a good cigar but I, as well as other true cigar smokers, don't inhale as with cigarettes - there's sufficient taste. Good cigars can get quite expensive. Pipes are too messy for me.

zman · January 2004

Oh no! My son's dealer just called me to tell me that he's got an XT 5-speed (Silver) in stock, ready for a test drive. My son says "Dad, stay away unless you plan to buy it." True?

By the way, I smoke a pipe (1) only between June 15 and August 15 and (2) only on the porch of my summer home. I never miss it otherwise--anywhere, anytime. I wonder why that is.

burnsmr4 · January 2004

First off, thanks to Rishi for sending me the pricing from his EXCELLENT dealership for ext. warranties. I couldn't get my local Atlanta dealerships to come even close to the $0 deductible pricing structure that he shared (nearly 50% of MSRP for Gold Plus plan).

However, thanks to another poster who referred me to Subaru of Gwinnett, I was able to share Rishi's info and get closer to the great $100 deductible pricing on a 6 year/100K mile warranty that he was given.

The pricing on the 6 year/100K mile $100 deductible ext. warranty from Gwinnett is $1150 -- about 25% savings off the MSRP from the Subaru Added Security Gold Plus plan brochure.

SO -- DECENT DEAL OR NO? Considering I don't have AAA on the car, I don't think that's a bad deal for the Gold Plus plan at $100 deductible.

PLEASE CHIME IN! I have to buy TOMORROW!

Thanks,
burnsmr4

p0926 · January 2004

Stay away! To borrow an old phrase: Driving an XT is the most fun you can have with your clothes on!

-Frank P.

ballistic · January 2004

I quit once for 6 years for professional reasons & missed it every day. When this line of work ended I went back because I enjoy it...'nough said

I admire and respect honesty and integrity above just about all else. IMO, people who claim that they don't actually enjoy smoking, cannot stop, and continue doing so only because they're helplessly 'addicted' flunk the honesty test. When, despite decades of widespread awareness of the health risks, they then sue tobacco companies for damages, they go clear off-scale. If I had a relationship with an attorney who took one of those obnoxious cases, I would sever it.

subarusaleshou · January 2004

I'll probably get scolded for responding however that's not a bad offer you have on a 6/100/$100. I don't know who Rishi is however I'm curious why, if Rishi was helpful and gave you a good price, you are now going to dump him/her and go to Gwinett?

troop2shos · January 2004

Heheh - What? Take personal responsibility for one's own action or inaction, today?
Now, back to your regularly scheduled Forester programming...got the cold - now need the snow for more XT testing, alone...

explorerx4 · January 2004

use the gas in the tank to keep the fuel pump cool/lubricated(?). running with the fuel light on can lead to a shortened life of the pump since it is in the tank(i.e, expensive repair). don't know if forester is like this, but i'm sure someone will know.

p0926 · January 2004

Yep I've heard about the fuel cooling the pump before and it makes some sense but then again, I usually wait for the low fuel light before refueling and I've not lost a pump yet!

-Frank P.

P.S. I warned you 1/4 tank guys not to read my post. Now you'll be having nightmares :-)

burnsmr4 · January 2004

Rishi is a user here. He referred me to a dealership in Illinois. In the interest of paperwork and expediency, I'm going to a dealership in Georgia. ;-) Hence Gwinnett.

Rishi gave me excellent information, and I am grateful for it. I only wish I'd had more time (and miles before 36K) that I could drive around this week and make arrangements with an Illinois dealership.

In this regard, I'm doing a combo -- combining Rishi's great pricing information with a recommendation about the Gwinnett dealership. A dobule-whammy!

burnsmr4

troop2shos · January 2004

The problem is running the tank close to dry thereby exposing the pump. When the fuel warning light comes on, you still have a couple of gallons or so left keeping the pump immersed - at least while maintaining a straight course...

In areas with wide ambient temperature swings, condensation build-up within the tank can pose a problem or from service station storage tanks.

paisan · January 2004

In the Subarus is a snap. We do it all the time when upgrading people's pumps on their WRXs. Takes about 1hr max.

-mike

ballistic · January 2004

...about them there gasoline-cooled fuel pumps, but it shore do seem to me that if it's so all-fired important to keep a liquid pool of gasoline around the pump at all times to prevent damaging overheating, then the pump ought to be submerged in a small shallow sump (maybe a quart in volume, whatever) that always stays filled with gasoline because the pump's suction is located slightly higher so that it can't possibly reach down that low. Installing a pump that actually requires surrounding gas for cooling, and then designing the pump's inlet so that it can drain the tank below that level, thereby wrecking the pump, sounds just plain stupid. Somebody please tell me that Subaru isn't that dumb.

troop2shos · January 2004

I failed to mention that cooling also occurs through constant fuel flow through the pump - don't want to be sucking fumes.
I'm in the dark as well on the Subie pump layout.
Mike?

paisan · January 2004

I believe all the in-tank pumps suck up from the bottom, not sure if they require fuild to be around them or just flowing through them for "cooling" but it's a common design, not just subarus.

-mike

ballistic · January 2004

Well, OK then...so fuel needs to be circulating through the pump (not necessarily around it) for cooling. So you drive until the tank goes dry. The fuel pump isn't going to run dry for any longer than it takes for the out-of-gas engine to die, maybe a few seconds. Again I'll say, if any automotive fuel pump isn't capable of gracefully handling that infrequent but by no means rare event without damage, it's a moronic design.

burnsmr4 · January 2004

Does anyone have any additional suggestions/comments about the ext. warranty deal I posted about last night? Look over the past 10 pages for my other posts re: justification for buying an ext. warranty.

Yeah -- I know -- sounds like I'm trying to get talked out of buying it. I don't know. Just don't like NOT having the 3rd year of my 3 year/36K mile warranty (since I'm at 36K miles BEFORE 2 years of ownership are complete).

Thanks,
burnsmr4

joenh · January 2004

Messages

I have a 2002 Subaru Forester, 15k miles. Last week I left a drive through to find the brakes would not release. Changed gears, reverse, no change. Hand brake was not on. Had to rev to 3500-4000 rpm to do 25 mph. Went a half mile and parked. Burning smell. Spit on all four discs. All four boiled spit. All four brakes were clearly always on. Went shopping for 30 minutes. On restart, no problem. Subaru kept for a week and could find nothing except that the hand brake had been left on in the past causing some wear of the shoes (rear drums, not discs).

The dealer says they have done all they can and factory agrees. They didn't consider replacing the ABS controls. This whole thing worries me. What if it happens again when I'm doing 65 mph?

Has anyone else experienced this? My barber says his brother-in-law had a Dodge Decota that locked up all four brakes at 50 mph. Did the same for the dealer. The fix was to disconnect the ABS. Swell !!!

joenh · January 2004

Messages
Our 2002 Subaru Forester has, for the third winter, exhibited a strange characteristic on slippery roads. Sometimes, when slippage occurs, a very load bang is heard from the rear wheel(s).

Three times to the dealer I was told it was nothing to be concerned with. 40 years of engineering design tells me different. The forth time and with another problem, they contacted Subaru engineering and were sent a new transmission control module, redesigned to produce a MORE GENTLE SHIFTING. Hmmm. Two years down the road, they have a fix for a problem that wasn't there. I wonder how many other owners have noticed this?

My concern has been that something in the drivetrain would be overstressed and fail after my warrantee period.

p0926 · January 2004

Michael- I'm pretty certain that there's a whole topic dedicated to extended warranties (Steve?) and we've also covered the subject pretty throughly in the past amongst the various Subaru topics. What it basically boils down to is a semi-educated gamble. You're either willing to bet that your Forester will need $1,200 plus in repairs in the next 3 years or you're not. Additional factors that influence your decision are:

a. Risk aversion
b. Make & model reliability scores
c. Ability to absorb the cost of sudden repairs

So... if you'll sleep better at night knowing you're covered by a warranty, go ahead and get it. If you don't mind self-insuring and can financially handle a potential future repair without losing any sleep, skip the extended warranty.

Just my .02

-Frank P.

stever · January 2004

Extended Warranties and Should I buy Ext. Warranty? are the two I know of off-hand.

I had a Cuban while shuttling my Outback home through BC. I think the additive qualities includes the ritual and hand movement almost as much as the drug part, whether it's a Camel, pipe or cigar. Coffee's an easier ritual and mostly cheaper.

What else - oh yeah, sometimes designs are a bit moronic because they have a better cost benefit ratio than the over-built version. From the manufacturer's standpoint that is.

Steve, Host

c_hunter · January 2004

If you have the automatic transmission, the "bang" is perfectly normal when it occurrs under sudden slippage. Auto trans vehicles have a forward power bias unless the wheels slip. When slippage occurs, power gets transferred aft in a hurry.

If you drive gently, you'll never notice it. If you floor the gas on a slippery surface you'll hear/feel a loud bang. The effect is somewhere in between the two extremes if you drive normally.

The first time I noticed this was when playing with my wagon in a snowy parking lot.

Craig

ballistic · January 2004

Coffee's an easier ritual

On the same day that I quit smoking 17 years ago, I also quit drinking coffee and almost entirely stopped drinking alcohol. These three substances are so tightly intertwined that it's much more difficult to stop smoking while continuing the other two. I still sip two or three half-glasses of wine per year, but that's about it.

d0ug · January 2004

My 2002 Forester will soon be due for my 30,000 mile maintenance. The local dealer gave me the following estimate: throttle body system-$139.95, radiator and coolant-$99.95, transmission fluid-$119.95, power steering fluid-$79.95, rotate and balance tires-$49.95, differential fluids-$159.90, brake hydraulic system-$69.95, service battery-$22.95, fuel and air filters-$79.99, spark plugs & test drive-$199.00 TOTAL $1021.54 plus tax. The car runs perfectly zero problems to date.Has anyone ever encountered an estimate like this? I am new to Subaru (my first one) but surely some of these services are over priced and not necessary at 30,000 miles. Any advise will be appreciated. AL

ballistic · January 2004

Does anyone have any additional suggestions/comments about the ext. warranty deal I posted about last night?

If you're seeking a consensus to guide you, it's unlikely you'll find one. Some people here (including several surprising ones) swear by their extended warranties. Others, including me, wouldn't buy one at half the going rate. I have a high level of risk tolerance, and I willingly self-insure for ordinary risks and losses that wouldn't put me into a financial crisis.

For all categories of insurance, it is a truism that in the aggregate, insurance purchasers always pay more than they ever receive back from the insurers - else insurers would go out of business willy-nilly. Extended warranties are among the highest-profit sectors of the entire insurance business. Buying insurance just to cover outlays of a few hundred or even a few thousand dollars never, in my opinion, makes sense - the purchasers are unarguably increasing the profits of the insurers. Why do that? Obviously, some insurance buyers collect more than they pay. Most collect less. Which category do you think you'll be in?

I buy, and I recommend others buy, insurance only to protect against genuinely catastrophic events that might have the potential to wipe me out or at least severely impair my liquidity. House fires. Loss of life or limb. Liability. Catastrophic major medical. That sort of thing. Auto repairs, up to and including replacing an entire engine or a transmission sometime after the mfr warranty expires, don't come anywhere close to that level of threat.

ballistic · January 2004

Egad. Some of those numbers are preposterous. Unless your tires have worn unevenly and have become unbalanced, rebalancing is unnecessary, and so fifty bucks to rotate? No way.

Unless I'm mistaken, quite a few of the expensive items you listed are nowhere required in the Subaru owner's manual schedule of items to service at 30,000 miles. If it were me, I'd direct the dealer to give me a quote to perform those services - and only those services. I also would get a second quote from a good local independent Subaru/import car mechanic.

Also, doesn't Edmunds have a link that provides a close estimate of the entire cost to service various vehicles at various mileage intervals? You might check that to see what Edmunds estimates your 30K mile service ought to cost. I don't think it will come anywhere even distantly close to $1,200.

I think you should be able to accomplish a complete 30,000 mile service for $400 to $600 max.

once_for_all · January 2004

if you live in California I will come do it for $500 and I will even use synthetics in your diffys. (joking). Seems way high to me.

John

p0926 · January 2004

Al- Yikes! Can you say highway robbery? You can get their estimate to perform only the Subaru recommended maintenance items like Jack suggested but it still appears they're over-charging for what they do. I'd find another dealer or a reputable independent mechanic. I'm guessing you can get everything that's truly needed done for about $350. And contrary to what the dealer would like you to believe, as long as you keep all your maintenance records, you're in no danger of voiding the manufacturer's warranty.

-Frank P.

bbthomas · January 2004

Edmunds estimates $351 for 30,000 maintenance on 2002 Forester.

ballistic · January 2004

And I guesstimated $400 to $600? Obviously, nobody should ever accept any financial advice I provide!

joenh · January 2004

Thanks for the reply Craig. A couple of things.

Trying to maintain 20 mph on a steep upgrade caused repeated bangs.

For what ever reason, Subaru engineering came up with a fix to the transmission control unit to make a less agressive shift (their info).

I never had another vehicle make that type of loud noise under the same conditions in 40 years of driving. I would hate to have something in the drive train fracture due to the sudden impact.

cyberpirate · January 2004

I have mailed you the contact info for ext. warranty. I tend to agree with juice - resale, roadside assistance...

p0926 · January 2004

Edmunds estimates $351 for 30,000 maintenance on 2002 Forester.

Hey my guesstimate was spot on! Maybe I should go by a lottery ticket ;-)

-Frank P.

c_hunter · January 2004

Were the wheels continually slipping on the steep grade? That's the only thing that would have caused repeated bangs (and I would not expect to hear more than 1 bang every 4-5 secs, anything more would worry me).

I don't think the transmission has anything to do with it, so I'm guessing they were way off on that one.....

There are certain quirks associated with AWD, and this is one of them in Subarus. I know it sounds bad, but I think it's just a matter of the driveline flexing against slack in the bushings and mounts.

Again, this should only happen when the front wheels slip suddenly. If it happens any other time, then you should worry!

Craig

ballistic · January 2004

Maybe I should go by a lottery ticket

That's right. Go by one. That's much better than to go buy one.

Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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