Is This the "Day of the Diesel?"

avalon02wh · January 2007

I would agree that your Jeep Liberty does not carry the premium that other diesels carry. But for some diesels, you start off so far in the hole that you never save by buying the diesel. You would also need to add in finance charges for the extra cost of the diesel. If VW can keep their promise of similar prices for the gas and diesel they should be very successful with their diesels

You will notice that the calculator shows, given the fuel prices I entered, no fuel savings by buying a diesel. And, you can buy a lot of spark plugs and oil filters with $10K.

What will the extra maintenance costs be for the topping off the urea tank in some Bluetec diesels? I am assuming that people will not use human #1 to top off their urea tanks

It only contains about 2.5% urea anyway.....Good thing this is a G rated thread.

Fuel cost (89-91 octane) of my V6 gasoline engine (2001-2006) per year was $861.23

ruking1 · January 2007

Might I suggest you look in the thread "Honda Civic Real World Mpg Numbers". We get 38-42 mpg in a 54 R/T mile daily commute. This is on a route that includes one of the roads that is rated by national transportation professions as one of the WORST (commutes/roads) in the NATION. Yet I have been called just short of an outright liar.

Indeed there are a fair number of folks that get as low as 24/25 mpg. So there is a wide range.

The other is on a longer trip, (San Jose CA to Portland Oregon r/t) we got between 36-38 mpg cruising at 80--90. Bursts were to 85-95 respectively.

So my take: why does one need a V-6 with all that much more power, especially if one will only go 70 mph to save fuel!!??? Just go 70 mph in a Civic and one will be able to save MORE fuel with much less effort and cost!!?? Cost of acquisition is FAR less also!

The difference in cost of acquistion between a like for like Civic and Accord alone will buy a LOT of fuel!

So because this is a DIESEL thread. The TDI in the same commute gets 48-52 mpg. On a recent short trip of 250 miles R/T, I got 52 mpg because I kept it SLOW. (under 85 mph)

ruking1 · January 2007

Not sure why you compare a diesel bus to a passenger diesel car and or Honda Accord? Perhaps you should go to your local TA transit authority and see how their gasser busses compare?

Closer to the issue, VW (TDI line) for example does NOT recommend additives. Indeed Honda (Civic) does NOT recommend additives. Some folks do feel the need to do an additive regime in both diesel and gasser. So what!? However winter diesel is indeed blended for WINTER. Of course so is unleaded regular.

The 2003 TDI was designed to run on ULSD. So I am glad it is finally commonly available! So how well do you think your Honda Accord would run when they just changed from LEADED regular to unleaded regular in the 1970's!!??

The time to cool off is a gross misunderstanding of WHO WHAT and WHY. The real reason is the turbocharger. The truth is there are more passenger vehicle gasser turbos on the road than diesels. Again turbos are neither gasser nor diesel as tubos run off the exhaust gasses either produces. So if one has a gasser turbo the advice is the same. (Actually gasser/turbo run hotter and as a result have less durability than diesel/turbos, but that is splitting technical hairs)

When I bought my 2003 TDI, the premium over the gasser turbo was essentially, as I remember: 246 dollars more.

ruking1 · January 2007

You are aware of course that Honda will be coming to the USA market with their cTDI? (probably Accord platform) Will be interesting to see how they position the price points.

In the UK I have read the price difference between gasser/ diesel is $600. US.

FUEL CONSUMPTION: (urban) 44.8 mpg / (extra urban) 64.2mpg / 56.5mpg (combined)

So in case the conversion was not done:

37.3 mpg (extra urban)53.45 mpg 47.04 mpg (combined)

My GASSER) 2004 Civic EPA is 29 (city)/38 (highway).

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/honda-civic-ctd-i-diesel-ra- - - - - - - - nge-1003265.html

So with a 600 difference, 2.60 diesel/2.45 ULR, 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year avg US driver, with 37.3/53.45 diesel vs 29/38 gasser, I am sure you can swag the B/E point.

So since I figured 20k miles per year is really when diesel begins to make sense, 26,000 miles per year is almost a no brainer for me.

When I compared the 1.8T at 31 mpg and the TDI at 48/49 mpg, with the above mileage, not only is it a no brainer but I am actually ahead. I B/E in the first 3 months. I save app 721 per year.

ruking1 · January 2007

"The following was from the Honda Accord I4 vs V6 forum. So it appears some people are getting high 30s.

Message #55 ... carefully monitored (i.e. exact routes, 2runs) mpg checks seem to indicate 36-37 mpg in the 70 mph range. its true what they say about the i4 ...

Message #46 ... I'm about to load up my Accord EX I-4 to go to the beach, maybe this time I can crack the 40 MPG barrier? Probably not, since I'll have major A/C use, but I look for another 38 MPG trip! Woo ...

Message #20 ... I got 36 on a 5 hour trip to NC... "

Just to put some MSRP numbers:

6 cyl Accord EX 4 door sedan 27,400
4 cyl Accord EX 4 door sedan 25,050
4 cyl Civic EX 4 door sedan 19,500

27,400-19,500= 7,900 (difference in acquisition costs) buys a WHOLE LOT of fuel!!??? $7,900/2.42 per gal =3,264 gals.

At my 38-42 mpg that gives me between 124,032 miles to 137,088 miles of commuting. Since I use it for a 54 mile R/T commute, up to 9.6 years of commute miles.!!!

hypnosis44 · January 2007

Cold weather diesel performance is a problem. In WWII the [non-permissible content removed] used diesels in their tanks and in cold weather campaigns had to begin start them early giving the US troops considerable advance warning of a possible attack or troop movement. The US Sherman tanks used twin flat head Cadillac gasoline engines and twin Hydromatic transmissions. The downside there was the volatility of gasoline versus diesel fuel if you are hit.

ruking1 · January 2007

Since we are talking app 2007-1942= 65 years ago, why don't we talk about leaded gas and how it would work in todays' Honda Accords.

winter2 · January 2007

The AdBlue liquid is pretty cheap in the EU and is not taxed. Also, the amount of AdBlue that is used depends on how you drive the vehicle too.

Mercedes will make keeping the AdBlue tank full as part of the normal maintenance routine and will probably cost next to nothing or nothing at all. Mercedes charges somewhat less than $1000 for the diesel option. Dodge charges a bit over $5000 for the diesel, plus whatever required equipment (trans, heavier front suspension, etc.) which in the long run still makes it cheaper than buying a large gasser. The other thing about that site stated something about X miles year after which point diesel starts becoming much cheaper to run. The calculator looks at first year only as I read it. You be interesting to see the return after five to eight years at 30K miles per year.

winter2 · January 2007

I use one additive, a cetane improver and that is it.

The diesels also seem to need time to cool off after running in hot weather. Ford suggests letting their diesel engines idle for 3 minutes before shutting them off. Sounds like a hassle to me.

Any turbocharged engine, gas or diesel, needs to be allowed to idle and cool after being run hard, such as towing at high speed or running at high speed in hot weather. Again, this applies to any turbocharged engine.

Cold weather starting. Your example smells like a GM product. (Does Ford use two batteries?) I had a diesel in the early eighties and I never plugged it in. It had one battery and would take 3.5 seconds to heat the glow plugs even at -20F! Always started unless the battery crumped. I have the Liberty and it lives outside without being plugged in. Glow plug preheat is two seconds or less in single digit still air cold. Starts first try and runs smoothly. The old diesel did too. I am off and moving in 15 to 20 seconds without a hiccough.

ruking1 · January 2007

..."I use one additive, a cetane improver and that is it."...

Since I am a relative newcomer to passenger vehicle fleet diesels, (actually my FIL had a 1985 MB 300 TD) folks can correct me on the history. But the real reason for the NEED/want for the cetane improver was because of the mistakes made in the 1970's by the regulators. Essentially as technology improved, vehicle cetane requirement ratings (on the diesel side a tad analogous to octane ratings) went up. So for example the 2003 TDI had a cetane requirement for a min of 49 cetane. USA law allowed (relative to Europe) much lower quality #2 diesel, with 49 state cetane of 40. CA had of late before the ULSD, had 45 cetane. ULSD I read in passing is now 50 cetane min. So not only does it have WAY less sulfur 15 ppm vs up to 500 ppm, but the cetane rating is UP.

I have also been in 20 degree weather and once in 20 degree weather with a wind chill of essentially ZERO (at altitude in the CO Rocky Mtns) and once the glow plug dash indicator light went out the car starts IMMEDIATELY.

ruking1 · January 2007

(at altitude in the CO Rocky Mtns) Durango, CO 6512 ft.

moparbad · January 2007

With temps. as low as -50 F windchill I've never had a problem with either VW TDI or Liberty CRD starting or with fuel gelling.
I always use a anti-gel, lubricity, cetane additve year round. #1 reason I use the additive is for the lubricity additive for the injection system.
The old adage an ounce of additive is worth 10 hours labor @ $80/hr.

ruking1 · January 2007

So that I am clear to the NON diesel folks, I DO NOT use a winter additive. Nor do I do anything to remotely approach #1 diesel.

Yes, I also use the additive( Cetane booster Primrose 405C 1-3000 dilution,
http://www.primrose.com/Premium Select/405C Power- Master Plus.pdf).
I keep it in a 12 oz? bottle in the trunk and give it a quick shot just before filling (when I remember), little to no hassle.

I decided to use it in 2003 due to the VERY poor grade USA #2 diesel fuel. In theory, its use with the new ULSD is a complete redundancy. However, I still use it for the supposed extra lubricity to the fuel pump, as my longer term goals for this vehicle are a min of 500,000 miles and hopefully to 1,250,000 miles.

So if I were to keep the TDI like most people keep their gassers (to 250,000 miles), I couldn't be bothered. So in truth, I would have a hard time telling folks it does/does not work. Ask me at 500,000 miles or I will mention it if and when the fuel pump goes DOA.

winter2 · January 2007

The link to the additive package appears to be broken.

ruking1 · January 2007

http://www.primrose.com/Pcatagories/fueltreat.htm

Hopefully this will work. One will have to scroll down to the specific product (405C)

To the non diesel community:

Perhaps it also needs to be mentioned that those folks sell directly to retail and wholesale jobbers as well as distributors of #2 and #1 diesel.

When was the last time one heard of that happening on the unleaded regular premium side!!?? There is literally no way one could have access to the the same similar additive packages on the gasser side.

The upshot is this stuff can be SAFETLY shipped by UPS, Fed Ex, USPO. etc.

hypnosis44 · January 2007

I check in here regularly for a little information (the net is a better source) but more for the amusement. Now every defect in diesel is a plus every plus of gas is a defect. At least I get my laughs for the day. Now I will go over to World News to find more of the same.

ruking1 · January 2007

Actually what is amusing is there is really no shortage of unleaded regular and premium; even as we import upwards of 60% of USA oil for higher on the hog unleaded regular and premium. The real key is to convert to diesel and keep the lower diesel fuel prices and be able to do per mile driven 25-35% cheaper than like model gasser!

Some signals in the USA that the majority of segments are really serious about dropping consumption is when: diesel (alternative fuels) are tax less and cost less per gal RETAIL than unleaded regular. Curiously enough diesel is on par with premium, or in some places even less!

blufz1 · January 2007

Unpopular position to tax gas more than diesel but,I agree. We have to stop paying terrorists to kill us.

ruking1 · January 2007

So if the current passenger vehicle fleet is 235.4 M vehicles with 2.3-2.9% diesel, the answer is in a higher RATIO of diesel (alternative) passenger vehicle fleet.

A target is 23.4 % of the passenger vehicle fleet being diesel (alternative) for discussion purposes. (235.4 M x 23.4% would be 55.08 M diesel (alternative) vehicles

The answer is really in the RATIO's of "What Does One Barrel Of Crude Oil Make?"

www.eia.gov

http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/crude_products.aspx

1 barrel of crude (42 gals) yields grossly

gasoline 19.3 gals 46%

diesel 9.83 23.4%

A grade school understanding of math is all that is needed. But if there are any questions.... Fire away.

Not commonly known, but refiners to get unleaded regular and premium start with the much less available and much more expensive "light sweet crude", "Texas Tea" call it what one will.

The upshot: to make diesel, the more common OTHER THAN "light sweet crude" is both more available and 30-40% CHEAPER.

This is for starters there is also an ancillary internal rate of return.

hypnosis44 · January 2007

This site has an interesting graph and some additional information about how a barrel of oil is more than a barrel.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html

ruking1 · January 2007

It is good to know the %'s of light sweet crude.

Process GAIN is the last line item on the EIA figures. It is 2.47 gals/42 app a 6 % gain. Or the new figure is 44.47 gals. It is still 30-40% CHEAPER to buy "OTHER THAN" light sweet crude, which is more plentiful and available to process both unleaded regular and diesel. Indeed diesel's yield is still more both vol and %.

Seems like your post is making even a stronger case for HIGHER diesel use, i.e. greater percentage diesel passenger vehicle fleet. If we were processing ONLY (for CA) the new % of diesel passenger vehicle fleet would be 15.3%.

Again if you are not in favor of diesel (alternative fuel) you still haven't explained how using unleaded regular/ premium (97%) is going to make a dent in the LOWER % of unleaded regular/premium % use.

elias · February 2007

NICE with the ratio idea, ruking. i might just have to go to a 100% diesel personal fleet until the USA gets a balanced diesel/gas fleet! the 3 new D-C diesel SUVs look veeeeeery interesting - i might trade both my gassers (GTO+XC90) for one diesel D-C SUV.

hypnosis44 · February 2007

Article on diesel vs gasoline

http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/04-12/diesel-vs-gasoline-article.htm

ruking1 · February 2007

IMAGINE if all those diesel products that used diesel, jet fuel etc were banned and required to go to a fuel source such as unleaded regular/premium.!!??... Unleaded fuel usage would got UP a min of 50%.

Fully one half of ALL fuel burned in this country IS diesel/Jet fuel/ home heating oil.

A short list would include emergency generators, house furnances, air planes, industrial processes, farm equipment, construction equippment, shipping, military vehicles, mass transportation. Essentially diesel is the back bone of the energy equation.

larsb · February 2007

I posted that way back here:

Beatcha to it

hypnosis44 · February 2007

You sure did. Nice work.

avalon02wh · February 2007

I recently read an interesting story on oil changes.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2945

What caught my eye was the following:

"These days, its common to hear of documented engine life of 500k miles and more. A fleet of Chevy gasoline V8 pickups pulling trailers delivering car parts overnight all over the Midwest has run a number of bow tie bombers to over 600K without failure. A 1987 Saab 900 just hit the million mile mark without an engine rebuild."

In the past super high mileage was the exclusive domain of diesels, or at least that was the conventional wisdom. It now appears that gasoline engines are starting to crash the 500K party.

I did double check to see what type of engine the Saab had in 87. It was either:

# 19861989  2.0 L (1985 cc) B201 Intercooled turbo, 138-155 hp/103-114 kW at 5000 rpm and 235 N·m (173 ft·lbf)
# 19841993  2.0 L (1985 cc) B202 16-valve turbo, 160-175 hp/118-129 kW at 5500 rpm and 255-273 N·m (188-201 ft·lbf)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_900

avalon02wh · February 2007

"Mercedes will make keeping the AdBlue tank full as part of the normal maintenance routine and will probably cost next to nothing or nothing at all."

I would be interested to hear the actual cost. Do you really think it will cost next to nothing or nothing at all at a MB dealer? The luxury car dealers are pros at separating you from your money and making you feel great about it

avalon02wh · February 2007

Yes it was a GM truck. The owner seems to think the additive is important.

ruking1 · February 2007

The key which most gassers oems assiduously avoid, is letting folks know the design life (in hours) of their specific model's gasser motor!

Indeed it was like searching for a needle in a haystack to find out the VW (Jetta) TDI engine has a design parameter of 25,000 hours. So if my average mph is 50, then that would mic out to 1,250,000 miles.

winter2 · February 2007

In the EU, AdBlue is quite cheap and not taxed. Will MB charge the owner for refilling the AdBlue tank? Probably not. Look at it this way, several of the luxury automakers are not charging for maintenance (Audi, BMW to name two). They are even replacing wear items like brakes and wiper blades at no cost to the owner.

Luxury car dealers are not the only ones happy to separate you from your money and make you feel good about it. Plenty of non-luxury dealers are very adept at the same thing.

avalon02wh · February 2007

"Consider this: Algae's Life is about EATING C02 ....... The FLATUS it passes is: OXYGEN !!!!!"

I think they prefer to use the word exhale

They also inhale oxygen at night.

I agree that biodiesel from algae has tremendous potential. The wastewater lagoons at Melbourne, Australia (largest in world?) are over 26,000 acres. If they could squeeze 5,000 gallons per acre -- well that's a lot of juice. And, the resulting discharges would have a lot less BOD and TSS (pollution). We have hundred of wastewater lagoons all across the US the could potentially supply algae for biodiesel too. Kind of like killing two stones with one bird!!

http://www.melbournewater.com.au/content/sewerage/western_treatment_plant/wester- n_treatment_plant.asp

ruking1 · February 2007

The future is already here. The problem is a majority of folks do not believe it!! And any number of OEMS still cling to the lower OCI parameters!!! I routinely run 15,000 to 20,000 miles in gasser motors. I have done it for over 800,000 miles (a number of years is one translation)

With LOW SULFUR DIESEL (LSD up to 500 ppm, with a more regular less than 140 ppm CA diesel) I routinely ran 20,000 to 25,000 mile OCI's. With the advent of ULSD, 30,000 mile OCI's could be routine. (with oil analysis if one is particular) I have read in the literature that the TBN number, important with LSD is almost superfulous with ULSD!! REASON the ULSD runs WAY CLEANER!!! This in turn lets lessens the inevitable degradation of additives. ie stays cleaner longer. This is not to advertise but ELF puts out a 0w30 that meets VW 507.00 or good to go to 30,000 miles OCI.

avalon02wh · February 2007

Interesting numbers. I would think that kind of longevity would be of great interest to fleet buyers but less so for car owners.

Just for fun I calculated out how many years it would take a Jetta TDI to reach 1,250,000 miles going 9,000 miles per year (my current rate). I came up with 139 years. I am somewhat of an optimist, but living past 139, I don't know. I think the odds are against me. :surprise:

ruking1 · February 2007

Yes I think on some level it is hard to get away from the auto salvage figures of 7-8.5 years average age of the passenger vehicle fleet and 7% of the passenger vehicle fleet hitting the "junk yard" or so. This is what really drives the new car market of 16-17 M new cars per year; also the yearly miles of 12,000 to 15,000 miles by the average US driver. So in that sense 9k is below average.

So to me the SOME of the practical issues are:

1 keep a larger % of (older) cars longer

2 drive same miles but use less fuel: better mpg vehicles

3 drive less and use less fuel

4 increase % and vol of alternative fuel vehicles
(like alternative diesel etc)

5. cure the revenue addiction at all levels to which governments are hopelessly addicted

6. etc etc

ruking1 · February 2007

There are a couple of things of interest (in my opinion) in no particular order.

Given the salvage rate, the mileage mics out to 84,000 miles to 125,500. Given your (longevity 600,000 miles) gasser post!!? Given a TDI or diesel of 1,250,000!!??

Making new cars are RESOURCEs intense or intensely consumptive VS doing the repairs needed to keep an older car on the road

It is almost idiotically more resources intense VS building a car than is designed to LAST say 14-16 years/210,000 to 240,000 miles instead of 1 miles INXS of the normal warranty period, i.e., my 2004 Honda Civic of 3 years and 36,000 miles?

If one does not know or see that the energy issue is absolutely central, I could go on for pages just in numbered examples. Trust me you won't want me to do that!!?

hypnosis44 · February 2007

MASS TRANSIT! That would kill this discussion on whether it is better to have a sharp stick stuck in the left eye or in the right eye!

But the messianic tearing of garments, the gnashing of teeth, the threats of ??, the ranting, the hyperbole, the "how many angels can dance on the head of a diesel" the flat out fairy tales, the back tracking, contradictions, inanities, non sequiters, the eight decimal point pointless posts, interspersed by the occasionally informative would be hard to replace; and the entertainment value is priceless!

I wouldn't miss it. Keep on drilling!!

ruking1 · February 2007

You should really spend more time (not on here but say) in San Francisco's Municipal Railway system/s. They own the rights to the water, (and in effect the cost of electrical generation is ZERO), own literally a world destination international airport and STILL lose money on the electric MASS TRANSPORTATION, specifically; cable cars (INXS of 100 years old), electric trolley buses and electric light rail.

Indeed the real news is that the "work horse line/s" which some are literally double length busses are in fact (unmitigated) DIESEL busses!!!

ruking1 · February 2007

To be fair not many in the country are making money.

qbrozen · February 2007

i'm really scratching my head on this one.

what in tarnation is mass transit?? Is that when cars travel in packs down the highway? Or is it just when I carpool?

Oh, I just googled it .... yeah, ain't got none of that where I live.

ruking1 · February 2007

"Sorry, hybrid driver, window's closed for carpool lane stickers"

by Gary Richards

"If you just bought a hybrid car but don't yet have your carpool lane sticker, two words: Forget it."...

SJMN Feb 3, 2007 A section

www.mercurynew.com/news

No more,... no go solo.

larsb · February 2007

Ruking1,

How does this relate to "is this the day of the diesel?" exactly, again?

:confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

Doesn't this go in the "Hybrids in the HOV lane" forum?

ruking1 · February 2007

Might ask a similar question why you posted an article about diesel vs gasoline!?

larsb · February 2007

Um, because gasoline is pertinent now and if diesel is going to "have it's day" then it's going to be at the expense of gasoline usage.

If this is "the day of the diesel" which we are debating here, then people are going to have to decide if they want to use diesel OR gasoline in their cars and trucks, are they not?

ruking1 · February 2007

And/or hybrid included? Quite a HUGE premium for a solo pass?

Now that legislature might kill or let expire the legislation.... Or the legislature is really saying ... ?

larsb · February 2007

hybrids are gasoline vehicles, until the next advance.

If you want to talk Hybrids in the HOV lane, let's go there.

PS. The high mileage diesels are in that legislation for the HOV lane also. They just did not have any clean enough to be awarded stickers.

ruking1 · February 2007

Right and the 85.001 hybrid is still nyet!

Because I know you are not saying the later ones are not as clean as the 85,000 !!

Is This the "Day of the Diesel?"

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