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Lexus LS 600h/600h L
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Comments
tricky73, "Lexus GS 450h: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #43, 18 Apr 2007 7:11 pm
I actually traded my 450h for the 460L and would not go back even though there is nothing bad to say about the 450h. The 460L is a considerable leap forward beyond the 450h imho. Nearing 6 months now and the 460L is trouble free, as expected.
1. Virtually all LS460L optional equipment now becomes STD.
2. A noticably Faster vehicle, that can break 5 seconds. "The New Fast"!
3. A quieter vehicle than even the LS460, with less reliance on internal combustion.
4. Exclusive features only available on the 600h.
5. A better value than any comparable German, $10-30k less.
6. The most efficient vehicle in the class, by as much as 50%. Much lower cost of ownership than any other $100k vehicle.
7. Exclusivity. Simply the best Lexus you can buy. Period. You are no longer one of 30k others. :surprise:
8. Virtually zero emissions, even better for the environment than your average family sedan, with similar economy.
Just off the top of my head, the vehicle will be best in class in many respects. And not much of a price penalty vs. a loaded LS460L. A $10-15 difference.
It's a much smarter purchase than a S600 over an S550, for example. The S600 just adds power, at the expense of efficiency.
If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up. It is so choice!
DrFill
The good news for me is that I will likely be getting my premium package with advanced pre-collision vehicle with the color combo smoky granite mica and black interior around August or September. The other day the dealer was concerned that it may be the end of the year before it is shipped. Yes this is at least 4 months down the road, but I am told that at least I will be getting one since I am first on the list.
I forgot about the AWD, which really should be optional on at least the 460, if not both.
That's costing you around 300 lbs. right thur, plus at least 2 MPG! :sick:
880+ lbs. is a load, and the hybrid's advantages are effectively cancelled out by this cross to bear.
Expect around 20-21 MPG, which is still pretty good, but no better than a 460. :surprise: It may get 5 MPG more, but will lose at least a second to 60.
As was mentioned, these level cars are not about being a "Smart Buy", it's about status, within the marque, and within cardom.
At least the value of the Touring Pkg. brakes was realized, dramatically slowing a significantly heavier vehicle. Hopefully, this will become standard by the mid-gen refresh in 2010.
DrFill
Wasn't it AutoWeek that had a much more favorable review of the LS600HL a few weeks ago? BTW, the implication by Edmunds that only the filthy rich will be attracted to this car is pure gunk. I don't consider myself filthy rich by any means.
Read the Audi A8 L W12 review on the same page may let you feel better. IL said the Audi W12 is well worth the money, but the LS600hL isn't? :confuse:
It was 2 years before the LS460 came out, which matches it's acceleration with a V8 for potentially half the price, with almost as much luxury.
The Audi got 19 MPG (the 600h should beat that), took longer to stop, and was more expensive.
A $90k Lexus LS460L is a much "better buy" than either, it would seem.
Many customers won't need the AWD, and given the weight gain, the hybrid drive is nullified, as is the power increase.
As impressed as IL was with the LS460L, they seem confounded by the 600h. I can't say i blame them. As good as the 600h is, it seems to fall short of greatness.
DrFill
If you like the Lexus LS 460 L you'll like the Lexus LS 600h L. If you love the Lexus LS 460 L you'll love the Lexus LS 600h L. And it really is that simple.
But if you're truly concerned with man's impact on the environment, you'll buy a Honda Fit. Get the Sport model with the optional leather.
I know, ain't gonna happen. You're rich beyond belief and wouldn't be caught dead in a subcompact. But you also have five 10,000-square-foot homes that you're constantly heating and air-conditioning, plus a Gulfstream G550 so you can avoid the ticket counter, and you're feeling a little guilty about it.
Don't. Leave the guilt for the middle class.
Instead, do what Al Gore does, buy some of those Carbon Credits and fire up the jet for another ski weekend. Aspen is lovely this time of year. Oh, and buy yourself a Mercedes S600. Its 5.5-liter V12 cranks out 510 hp and a colossal 612 lb-ft of torque, enough to blow the Lexus LS 600h L into the weeds. It even qualifies for a ULEV II emissions rating. That's ULEV as in Ultra Low Emission Vehicle. In other words you can kiss the tailpipe for a week without any side effects, including guilt.
"Don't. Leave the guilt for the middle class."
"Instead, do what Al Gore does, buy some of those Carbon Credits and fire up the jet for another ski weekend. Aspen is lovely this time of year. Oh, and buy yourself a Mercedes S600. Its 5.5-liter V12 cranks out 510 hp and a colossal 612 lb-ft of torque, enough to blow the Lexus LS 600h L into the weeds. It even qualifies for a ULEV II emissions rating. That's ULEV as in Ultra Low Emission Vehicle. In other words you can kiss the tailpipe for a week without any side effects, including guilt.
Our crusader against global warming also has a house that cosumes 5-10X the energy of an upper middle class 4500 foot house. The guy has always struck me as one that practices the opposite of what he preaches. Worse yet is my scientific knowledge of weather can see right thru the garbage he tries to get headlines with.
I am very much interested to get your opinion on this less than complimentary review by Edmunds. I'll tell you what. I have gone from near ecstasy to almost depression in just 24 hours after reading this review.
There are a few things that really bother me. Even though, if a person is going to spend that much money on a car, gas mileage is not really a concern, it is a concern for me. It is the principal of the thing that affects me psychologically. It does defeat the idea of a hybrid. Come on! Getting 20 mpg on the highway stinks. I really expected an average (city and highway) gas mileage of at least 25-26. And even though it does not make much difference to me (I would not be racing with the car), why is it testing so slow from 0 to 60? I also see Edmunds concern about the Nickel hydride (?) battery disposal problem down the road. Maybe Lexus should have held off production until the Lithium Ion battery was ready.
I obviously love all the high tech features of the car and of course I like the fact that it is AWD, but I am now having second thoughts about getting this car. I cannot believe how my mood has changed on this in less than a day after reading the Edmunds review. I have placed quite a lot of trust in Edmunds over the years. My only hope is that all these findings are bogus because it is a pre-production model. What do you think? If these results stand, I am now leaning toward cancelling my order.
BTW, I did not realize you had already posted your opinion on the Edmunds review. I was working and occasionally typing my post and did know you already gave an answer.
Spending a week with it would help a lot, in a review.
Kinda falls into the Honda Accord Hybrid catergory. :sick:
Maybe if they targeted 30MPG, with 400HP, it would be an easier sell?
DrFill
I recently bought a Camry Hybrid and leave my Audi(S8) for the weekends. I wouldn't buy a hybrid that didn't offer excellent mileage. I would rather see a LS hybrid with 30% better mileage--that I would consider.
Lithium Ion battery has a shelf-life problem. None of my cell phone, computer or camera lithium batteries have ever lasted more than a couple years, even with minimal usage. Lithium batteries start expiring the day they are produced. The charge capacity of LI batteries decrease as a function of time and ambient temperature. The half life is only a year or less at room temperature.
Hope that helps :-) Think of the extra weight as safety device . . . you know, the old joke about Rolls-Royce owner's theory about car crashes: it's better if the other bloke's car bounces off and leaves me unscathed :-)
Cyclone - I'd get the curb weight of the car from your sales guy and see how it compares to the weight in the Ednunds car. Regardless if the car goes 0-60 in the same timespan as the LS460L than they should have built a V12 hybrid or just a V12. For the extra money the performance has to be significantly more than the base car. What I'd be expecting to buy in that car is a faster 0-60 time, 450 horses and 23-25mpg. If they make good on that tham the hybrid is an awesome car.
2. The smaller engine would be moving a bigger vehicle, another weight nullifying the Hybrid. It moves the lighter GS in 5.5, and won't move that quickly with another 600-1000 lbs.
3. Hybrids get metter MPG in the city, not on the highway, as the gas engine shuts off when stopped, and electric power is used to get the vehicle moving again.
It seems, based on this one review, that the 600h wanted to do two things, and did neither well. It didn't IMPROVE economy over the 460, which is necessary. V12 economy is not a real point of reference. And it isn't any faster, with all the weight penalties. :sick:
Maybe they said the bigger gas engine will help with speed, and the hybrid will help with economy.
It just doesn't sell against it's own 460, which can produce similar economy and thrust. :confuse:
DrFill
I agree with you on all points lj. However, I now have my doubts that at least the gas mileage will be much improved. In fact, on the Edmunds review, the specs show an actual EPA gas mileage of 22 in town and 20 on the highway. Edmunds got less than this when they tested it (18.2). In my opinion, that is rather deflating (being a hybrid). The 0 to 60 time may get faster if indeed the curb weight is lighter than they claim. The bottom line for me however is that I am quite disappointed at this time. I will wait and see what other reviews have to say.
Thanks for letting me rant
Tom Quinn
Out of curiousity what kind of mileage were you able to get from the GS450h? No one has posted on GH. I believe one poster here mentioned getting about 20MPG with his GS450h. It is hard to imagine the LS600h would get as good as the GS450h.
Given the new EPA MPG tests, and the size and weight of the 600h, factoring in performance testing by Edmunds, 20-21 MPG sounds about right. Expecting more out of a 400HP car that weighs over 50000 lbs. seems desperate. Maybe if you live in NYC, you might get to 25 MPG.
DrFill
As I recall in my prior 450h in mostly city/suburban driving I got about 22-24 mpg which I thought was very good given the significant gain in performance from the hybrid. Driving the same routes in a prior Acura RL I got more like 16 mpg and in current LS 460L get about 17 mpg (this will increase as the engine gets more broken in) over the same routes. I personally was very satisfied with the performance/mpg boost and balance in the 450h but the Edmunds report raises concerns about whether that same boost/balance will be achieved in the 600h.
We'll have to wait until some tests come out on real production 600h cars to see if there is a more significant performance/mileage difference between the 460L and the 600h as this early review indicates not.
DrFill
After a week hard driving, they got 20mpg, not bad.
I predict the official specifics will be curb weight <5100lbs, 0-60 in 5.2s, combined FE 23mpg, midrange acceleration 50-70 in less than 3.5s.
It would behoove Lexus to sell it's efficiency hard against 760iL and S600, which should be significant, to the tune of 30%.
An S600 is about a second faster. With a larger trunk. But costs $30k more.
Lexus has mentioned 0-60 in 4.9. Preliminary EPA is 22/20.
DrFill
My friend, you do not need to be depressed. The way to cheer yourself up is to get an LS460L, fully loaded, and enjoy the money you will save. The truth of the LS600hL is out now.
I have previously warned you and ljflx. I am glad that lj got the LS460L. He did the right thing, without a doubt.
Eventually, everyone will will see that the LS600hL is as portrayed in the Edmunds article. Resale might be a factor, and the extra cost is obviously a total waste. Eventually, the car will be discontinued, only to be replaced by something that REALLY is a breakthrough, instead of the hype.
To be honest with you, the LS600hL is even worse than I had anticipated in a number of areas.
I thought the fuel economy would be a little better than it is likely to be rated. Only 1 city MPG better than the LS460 and only 2 city MPG better than the LS460L and 5 HWY MPG WORSE than the LS460 and LS460L. This means that the average fuel economy of the LS600hL hybrid sedan will be WORSE than its LS460 brothers.
Add to that the fact that the acceleration of the LS600hL is one tenth of a second SLOWER than the LS460 and LS460L. It weighs in at an OBESE 887 lbs. more than the LS460L!
The LS600hL V-8 delivers only 9 more HP than the LS460 and LS460L V-8!! With the added electric motors, the total HP is only 438, and with that extra 887 lbs. of FAT, the car is ultimately SLOWER and burns MORE gas, not less.
Those 887 lbs of AWD and hybrid electronics FAT, come at a ridiculous price tag. The Edmunds test car priced in at $111,715.
And there's more to getting less. It seems the trunk size of this LS600hL is 35% SMALLER than the trunk in its 460 brothers, at a mere 11.7 cubic feet.
Exclusive you might think? Think again. Beyond the powertrain fat, there is essentially no option that can't be ordered on the LS460L.
God bless Edmunds for telling the truth about this vehicle!
I am once again very glad that ljflx got the LS460L instead of waiting in line to waste his money on an LS600hL. (Of course he could have gotten the Mercedes S600, but that's another discussion. )
Seriously, Cyclone4... do the smart thing here. I can't imagine ANYONE here or anywhere else that wouldn't understand the smart reasoning to get a fully loaded LS460L. Afterall, if you truly love this new LS, that's the smartest way to get it. It's now even more obvious than before... and frankly, I already thought it was darned obvious. Now it's common knowledge!
Good luck!
TagMan
ANYONE can do that... but who would want to? Gosh, it's sure no fun when you can't put the pedal to the metal anymore.
I've squeezed ridiculous fuel economy out of every car I've ever owned, just to see what was possible... but I would NEVER actually spend the majority of my time driving like I am pinching every penny of gas like some sort of scrooge who can't get out of his own way! God help us from THAT. Heck, you can squeeze high MPGs from an LS460L just as easily... in fact, EASIER on the highway.
Any normal driver isn't going to get any significantly measureable advantage in terms of fuel economy from that LS600hL in comparison to an LS460L. The LS460L, fully loaded, is the car to get.
The money saved will put gas in the LS460L for the life of the car! And you can still drive it with your foot hard on the gas once in a while, and actually enjoy some spirited driving! (instead of driving like a penny-pinching grandma)
TagMan
BTW, the major reason, I have not ordered the LS460L to this point is because, I really want AWD for winter driving. However, I have heard some state, that the LS460L has been doing great in snow and ice with all season tires. The major reasons they give for this improvement is due to the better breaks and stability control with the LS460L as opposed to the LS430.
I am about to pull the trigger and cancel my order for the LS600HL. I am just astounded how my mood has changed after the Edmunds review and the EPA gas estimate. I have gone from pure ecstasy to depression as I previously posted. However, I am now putting it behind me. What I will probably do is now wait for the 2008 LS460 and hope for AWD. But even if it does not I imagine there will be a few minor changes/improvements over the 2007 model year.
Wait for 2008. All wheel drive probably...diesel maybe. But diesel would be a real stretch by 2008.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
This is an incorrect statement. The trunk of a similarly equipped LS 460 is 12 cubic feet so the trunk of the 600h is only .3 cubic feet smaller. Not enough difference to even blink at. Remember, the Edmunds review is of a preproduction vehicle and it didn't even give consideration to the differnce in mileage data between 07 and 08 models since the rating system changes for all 08 models. As with the Car/Driver mag early review of a preproduction 460, there are some credibility issues in this first review of the 600h. Better to pass judgment when more information and reviews of the production vehicles become available.
Your rational thinking has gained you much credibility here in these forums as far as I am concerned.
TagMan
Are you now more certain that you made the right choice by ordering an LS460L with the options you want? The reason I ask is because last week you were wavering that perhaps you should have ordered the LS600HL. You were actually thinking of cancelling your order and try for the LS600HL.