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Lexus LS 600h/600h L
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Comments
I will state clearly here that after all the LS600hL reviews are accounted for, the Edmunds review will likely stand at the bottom of the heap.
One problem here is that no matter what the review looks like, I think we can safely say that the gas mileage will never be incredible, at least as you and I define that.
I'm still happy for you with regards to the LS460L. If you like the LS, it represents a terrific value, IMO. I somehow don't see you taking the "risk" with the S550.
TagMan
Tag - do the new diesels require different diesel fuel than what is currently pumped at stations that deliver diesel? If so are stations required to have both diesels? If two grades of diesel are required to support old diesels (and trucks where almoost all the diesel rev comes from) I can imagine many stations having a rerun of 16X9 HDTV and 4X3 reg TV in a different light. In my neck of the woods as it is, diesel gas is found where the trucks are (main highways) and not at local stations and that's another turnoff to me. I'm no diesel fan as you know, and am light years from knowledge on bluetecs so these questions may be dumb. But I can see a future diesel hybrid as being a perfect solutuion though I think the battery will become so important that the type of fuel may not matter anyway.
Nevertheless my nightmare is having a diesel that's running out of gas and finding a gas station as it dies, only to find they don't sell diesel.
Also, I think your perspective on the battery is valid, but it seems like that might be a long way off. But when they do finally get a serious battery, then you are right that the rest won't matter near as much.
TagMan
While I maintain that the next generation of this vehicle will likely be even better than this debut model, I realize that the competition, for all practical purposes, has absolutely NOTHING to directly compete with this vehicle at this point in time.
The Lexus LS600hL is the one and only high end luxury hybrid in the world. That's exclusivity, IMO. It's really a damn shame that the mileage numbers weren't a little higher, and I say that without attacking the car, as I've been accused of. I say that because instead of a stand-up double, we'd have seen a home run.
But again, what will the competition do? No one seems to really know, do they, and no one knows how long it will take. The next question is... once the competition finally does produce some sort of luxury hybrid of their own, or a luxury vehicle with alternative power... wouldn't the next generation Lexus simply come along and clobber the competition's first entry? Quite a real possibility!
The only hope I see for the competition here, if this class of car becomes truly a big hit, is to leapfrog the Lexus, but that will take serious committment, and I somehow wonder if that is possible considering that there probably isn't anyone in the world more committed to this than Toyota/Lexus is.
So, it would seem, gentlemen, that even with some of its disappointments, this LS600hL is exclusive afterall, in its own right.
At least that's how the good TagMan sees it!
TagMan
Regarding mileage, 30-40% better than any competing V12 is stellar. If people think every hybrid in the world needs to get 30MPG to be worthwhile, than people expect quite a bit from Toyota.
They're working on it. If anyone can bring the people what they want, which seems like the perfect automobile, it's 'Yota.
DrFill
I have no reason not to believe what he told me. He is not the type of person that makes things like that up. Folks, go ahead and spit out your theories. My GUESS is that there are more folks like me that are cancelling orders strictly because of the relatively low mpg rating for a hybrid.
In fact, we were interested in the Neiman Marcus edition at some point last month, but the $130K pricetag shattered that notion. I am not willing to spend that much money on a car, not for at least five more years. But $105,000, on a lease, as it makes sense for her, is definitely do-able. I'll have to contact my Lexus dealer, and see if they can get one to my by next year... well, I'll talk to the wife first!
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Amazing machine! 0-100km in 5.5s, 12.2km/l (28.7mpg), 190.3g CO2/km in Japanese 10-15 test cycle
for 2007, 600 LS600hL's.
Here is an item from the Wall Street Journal online from last Friday:
Toyota Prepares a Pricey Hybrid
Toyota Motor plans to roll out its most expensive hybrid car yet. The $124,000
Lexus LS Sedan is the first version of its luxury model that Toyota expects to
sell better in Europe and Asia than in the U.S. The company believes it will
sell about 100 of the models each month in the U.S. beginning in July, but
forecasts that it will sell 180 models a month in Europe and some 400 in Japan,
where overall Lexus sales reach only about 30,000 vehicles annually. Toyota says
it plans to sell 100 LS sedans a month in China starting in August. Unlike in
Japan, where even the wealthiest consumers demand fuel efficiency, analysts say
Americans spending more than $100,000 on a car tend to be more concerned with
performance than gas prices. Chief Lexus engineer Sam Sadakata said there's "a
real difference in the acceptance of hybrid systems in the U.S., Europe and
Japan."
0-60: 5.4s
0-100mph: 12.6s
1/4m: 13.8@105.1mph
200ft skidpad: 0.83g (R&T: LS460 SWB 0.8g)
700ft slalom, 100ft spacing: 63.6mph (LS460 SWB 59.9mpg)
(I don't think the car equipped with Active Stabilizers, which should improve LS600hL's handling quite a bit.)
Observed FE: 20.8mpg
"What's remarkable is the Detail Refinement and how Seamlessly it all works together..."
"The 2.5-ton sedan responds more nimbly than something with 121.7inches between its axles really should..."
"Efficient, Comfortable and Safe, the G550 is the Lexus (600hL) of Large business jets..."
Is there anyone out there that owned an '01 to '03 LS 430 with the Ultra Luxury Package that purchased the new LS 460 L or a new 600hL? I'm curious what your thoughts are comparing the vehicles.
Considering the GS and IS offer AWD, I'd say you have about a one in three chance.
DrFill
I've had my order now for almost a year and really wanted the Executive luxury package II, but they advised me that even though on the Lexus website it's available as a special order, they cannot order it with this option.
Anyone know if this is indeed the case, or when this option will become available for order.
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YOKO ONO will never use an environmentally friendly car - because they are not as comfortable as her Bentley. The wife of late Beatle John Lennon has snubbed the Hybrid car - which is popular with Brad Pitt, Cameron Diaz and Leonardo Di Caprio for its low pollution levels - in favour of travelling in luxury. She says, "Can someone make Hybrid cars as comfortable as a Bentley, please?"
LS600h not Comfy enough
Did the article say this had anything at ALL to do with the LS600h?
I'd bet my life savings, retirement, and both of my electric vehicles that MISS Yoko "I'm Too Sexy For A Prius" ONO has never rested her old, wrinkled fanny inside an LS600h.
Please respond to Chintan Talati at ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, September 12, 2007 with your daytime contact information and the hybrid model you own.
DrFill
Looking forward to all your comments!
You want luxury or performance? Go buy a luxury or performance car, sans token environmental gestures, and if your conscience still bothers you, or your "green" friends are miffed at you, take the extra money you'd have ponied up to buy a '600h and install some solar panels on your home.
I think the '600h is a joke, and not a funny one, at that. For sake of full disclosure, I'll add that a) I can't afford a '600h, but honestly this post is not about "sour grapes"; b) I drive a 2007 Altima 2.5SL sedan, Majestic Blue color, which is a peppy, beautiful car with enough room for my entire family and plenty of amenities and comfort, and it gets 27 mpg driving locally and well over 30 mpg (varies from 33 to 35) on long trips. AND it has, IMO, looks that rival the Lexus, if not the panache or the ponies. Cost? I paid $23k and change.
Skyline, a shameless but pragmatic tree-hugger
The reason why we have hybrids is to improve fuel economy while not sacrificing performance. Although, I'll agree that its mpg is disappointing.
It would be a shame for Lexus to have to take a big loss, but it does sound like the arguments against outweigh the pros.
The Lexus LS600H, which costs £84,000, was a gift from Lexus to the 65-year-old former Beatle, who helped promote the hybrid vehicle.
But instead of arriving by boat as expected, the car was flown to Britain on a Korean Air flight, creating a carbon footprint almost 100 times bigger than if it had come by sea.
Sir Paul is a vocal advocate of vegetarianism and has long been a poster child for environmental activism.
So much for the Big Green image Toyota longs to have.
1) The car is very well made. The inside feels more like a hand made Rolls than any Lexus (I've owned 3 other LS430's prior to this one). The hand sewn leather dash, doors, etc. is a marvel to see and touch.
2) The car is very expensive (cost me $130,000 including taxes), and IMO is in the middle of the cost/value ratio. My car is equipped with all of the extras, including exec seating package, DVD players in the front and rear, shiatsu massage, 4 zone HVAC, 3 position air suspension, etc. It WILL take some time before I can confirm if the car is worth the price.
3) Handles extremely well in dangerous weather and was a life saver in last week's flash flood. The all wheel drive and the 'high setting' kept the car from hydroplaning in the streets where water had pooled from water run off from connecting streets. The car took me out of harm's way, while many other cars had been swamped and stalled in the extensive water in the roads. Since I've purchased the car in the summer, I'm not looking forward to seeing how it will handle in the snow.
4) The gas mileage has been very good. After 20 days of driving in NY Metro related rush hour traffic, driving many times into NYC as well as LI and highway driving, I'm averaging 22.1 MPG. That's a 30-40% improvement over my LS430. I do have some concern that the battery may not provide the same level of output after a few years, but Lexus 8 year warranty does give me some comfort.
5) This is the only car I've ever driven where I deliberately slow down and enjoy the ride rather than rush off to get to my destination. The cockpit reminds me of what's great about the 21st century. Feels more like a jet than a car. The 8 gear automatic is so smooth you don't even feel the car changing gears.
6) All the dials, controls, readouts, accessories, etc, are very logically located and operate intuitively. I didn't need to read the manual to know how to use everything.
7) The AV in the car, is sensational. 18 speakers driven by a digital surround processor and a hard drive that you can rip and organize up to 2,000 songs. My kids love the DVD player with the wireless headsets. What's really great for me is that I can listen to my music in the front while they listen to their movies in the back without disturbing each other. The SAT radio's reception is far superior to what I experienced in my old LS430 in areas that don't have a direct line of site to the satellite (under trees, tunnels, etc.)
8) My kids also love being able to recline in the rear seat with their legs up, their heads back, and get a massage while they watch their favorite movies. This is the first car I've owned where I would be just as happy sitting in the back as driving the car.
9) The car does drive differently than my old LS430. It is much heavier, longer and the incremental acceleration you get from the electric motor drive over the gas engine as soon as you hit the pedal takes some getting used to. In fact, it's so easy to accelerate to 80 MPH with so very little effort, I'm using the radar guided cruise control to avoid tickets for excessive speed. One minor negative, the radar guided cruise is not as smooth as the one that was in my old LS430, I think that may be due to significantly higher horsepower and possibly the electric engine torque. I hope to have this item fine tuned by Lexis when I take it in for my 1,000 mile check up.
10) The LED lights are extraordinary at lighting my path.
11) The car is very sexy, much sleeker than my old LS430. I really like the look, however, there is a trade off with visibility and lines of sight because the windshield and rear windows are more inclined. I've also noticed that the roof seems a notch lower, but you get used to these minor things quickly.
Lexus 600HL report card grade: A. I might just increase my rating to an A+ depending on how the car handles on ice and snowy roads this winter and how well it does on maintenance.
Stay tuned. I will repost a follow up report after I’ve had the car for 6 months.
The first incident happened in a parking lot in early October ’09. The Lexus would not stop and ran over the curb and walkway and ended into a grassy area near a fountain. We ignored this incident and did not report it until the last incident happened. The last incident happened at a one-way stop which crosses the intersection of a two way heavily traveled thoroughfare. The car failed to stop at the stop sign, crossed two lanes of traffic, and ran into hedges and a street sign before coming to a stop. There was damage to the body of the car (bottom & front). We reported this to our Lexus Dealer. They were very nice to accommodate us with a loaner car. They sent our complaint to the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Center in Naperville, IL. Their complaint investigation was totally unacceptable. They advised that they have no history for the subject warranty problem and repair records and are unable to duplicate our concerns.
We are surprised that Toyota/Lexus did not even consider human life issue or even their own brand image. They should know that similar problems did occur and exist in Prius and Highlander hybrid vehicles during the past few years and are all shown on this website. I can’t believe that Toyota/Lexus ignore this problem and don’t even educate the vehicle operators on how to control the brake if this is a minor problem (which I believe is a major problem).
I don’t want to wait until someone crashes and dies.
Please advise me what action I should take or how to advise the other owners so they won’t be sacrificed.
In parallel braking system, both service barke and regenerative brake are activated simultaneously whenever driver applys the brake pedal. In series braking system, only regenerative brake is activated during initial travel of brake pedal, and then service brake is activated if brake pedal is depressed further. There are pros and cons for both systems.
Although the parallel braking system can not recover 100 % regenerative braking energy as series braking system does, it always provides some braking torque through using service brake when battery is fully charged during initial travel of brake pedal .
If Lexus/Toyota hybrid vehicles use simple series braking system, driver could lose all brake torque during initial travel of brake pedal if battery is fully charged at the momemt of applying brake pedal
Simple series braking system could be refined to avoid loss of brake torque by adding additional service brake to compensate loss of regenerative brake during initial travel of brake pedal if battery is fully charged. It requires sophisticated braking control software to maintain consistant brake torque by using less electric and more service brake. It may result in losing brake torque due to brake control software glitch or not accurate estimation of battery status.
In parallel braking system, both service barke and regenerative brake are activated simultaneously whenever driver applys the brake pedal. In series braking system, only regenerative brake is activated during initial travel of brake pedal, and then service brake is activated if brake pedal is depressed further. There are pros and cons for both systems.
Although the parallel braking system can not recover 100 % regenerative braking energy as series braking system does, it always provides some braking torque through using service brake when battery is fully charged during initial travel of brake pedal .
If Lexus/Toyota hybrid vehicles use simple series braking system, driver could lose all brake torque during initial travel of brake pedal if battery is fully charged at the momemt of applying brake pedal
Simple series braking system could be refined to avoid loss of brake torque by adding additional service brake to compensate loss of regenerative brake during initial travel of brake pedal if battery is fully charged. It requires sophisticated braking control software to maintain consistant brake torque by using less electric and more service brake. It may result in losing brake torque due to brake control software glitch or not accurate estimation of battery status.