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Honda Odyssey Transmission Problems

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Comments

  • dev_pdev_p Member Posts: 22
    Does anyone have figures as to what percent of Odyssey have Transmission problems and after what year it stopped occurring or still continues?

    I know its not easy to get data but someone in the Odyssey owners crowd who has read many posts would have come up with educated guess based on his/her perception.
  • autowriteautowrite Member Posts: 226
    I asked a similar question a few months ago and did not see one answer. Hopefully your question will get answered.
  • lgodfreylgodfrey Member Posts: 5
    Hi I am new to this but I have a 2001 Honda Oddessy that the transmission has gone out in 1 1/2 years after the warraty work was done. So I contacted Honda of America and got a district manager to look into the case he said that there willing to pay 50% of the cost and I believe that is unacceptable for a transmission to go out in 1 1/2 yrs is terrible customer service. I have someone else looking into this as well. I hope this helps. Lee
  • odsytrannyodsytranny Member Posts: 6
    edited March 2010
    The replaced Honda transmission in our 2003 Odyssey came with a 36 month warranty. Did your warranty replacement 1 1/2 years ago come with a warranty? I'd check with them about that first. btw . . . I had to "fight" for 50% cost reduction on my replacement (total cost before reduction was about $5,500). I'm actually impressed that they offered that to you right away. Were your "repairs" just from a recall notice or was it a replacement?
  • hogan773hogan773 Member Posts: 255
    I think you'd need to really know someone within Honda who might have access to the data.

    Just reading "posts" you're going to have a very small sample size (what number of the million Odyssey owners out there are actively posting....100? 200?)

    Plus you have the negative bias I mentioned (much more likely that someone who HAS a tranny problem ends up on this board after they Google "Honda Odyssey Transmission Problem" - then they proceed to beeyotch about it - than it is likely that all the soccer moms with perfectly working Odysseys happen to take the time to find the Edmunds board just to say "I love my Odyssey!"

    I'd bet money that the incidence is much lower than 5% failure rate.
  • lgodfreylgodfrey Member Posts: 5
    Yes you are absolutely right I am getting in contact with someone who is with Honda of America I will send you the information when and if I get it. Thanks
  • steamed1steamed1 Member Posts: 1
    Lost motor mounts at 40,000 miles.

    Lost transmission at 64,000 miles.

    Struts on rear hatch failed at 60,000 miles..

    Is there any recourse besides signing up with class action?

    Why do all the rating services give this van such a high rating?
  • hogan773hogan773 Member Posts: 255
    What other minivan is better?

    And by the way, a "failed strut on rear hatch" is pretty inconsequential........transmission I agree, and motor mount, yes I guess, although that is more of a wear item.

    Your 2002 was how old when these things happened? 7 or 8 years?
  • sricansrican Member Posts: 12
    We are in the market for an Odyssey EX and we like the trim except for the road noise and tight steering. I see several threads on transmission issues and are making me think twice.

    Some other reader also quoted why is this rated so high if the Odyssey has so much problems.

    Thoughts and tips are welcome.
  • rfreitasrfreitas Member Posts: 63
    What year are you considering?

    I have a 2002,
    replaced the transmission almost 2 years ago $3000
    Then a couple weeks later bad solenoid $250
    Today it happens to be in the shop for new motor mounts $680
    and new struts $550

    The service guy told me the motor mounts are bad in the Odyssey, but the new redesigned ones are better. He didn't say what year they started putting in the new design.
  • sricansrican Member Posts: 12
    We are looking at the new model 2009 version, but I am doubtful due to the large number of issues reported over the past years. Is there a point in time they did a redesign on the transmission and these issues are no longer reported.

    Thanks for your response.
  • autowriteautowrite Member Posts: 226
    I don't know the answer; but you could send an emial to Convsumers Reports and see what they say. The Pilot and MDX use the same charris engines and tranny as the Odyssey, except that the MDX gets a 6-speed in 2010. These 2 have no transmission problems since 2003; probably becuase they are 4 week/all-wheel drive. With Toyota's problems what could you buy in the same size. GM, Ford & Nissan do longer produce minivans. From what I read the Chryslers have their thanny problems too; but are not recommended by Consumers Reports. VW minivan is really a Chrysler. Maybe a customize full size van is the answer. I once had a 1982 Ford one.
    1963 Austin Mini
    1965 Morris 1100
    1967 Plymount Valiant
    1972 Datsun 510
    1979 Mercury Zephyr
    1982 Ford E150 Customized
    1992 Ford Taurus
    2002 Honda Odyssey EX
  • lgodfreylgodfrey Member Posts: 5
    I would recommend not getting a Honda Oddessy. 1 1/2 years ago they put a rebuilt transmission in it under warranty and it has failed about 2 weeks ago but Honda is paying for 50%. A transmission should not fail in a 1 1/2 years!
  • nedlyjnedlyj Member Posts: 89
    Please remember, you are obviously going to see more problems listed here because the vast majority of people don't have significant issues and they have no reason to come to forums and talk about it. With that said, Yes, there are issues with certain model years. We have both a 1999 and a 2010 Odyssey. Yes, the 1999 has had its transmission issues - we're on #3 now (replaced at 60K and 136K miles). And yes, the engine mounts are expensive and wear out. However, I believe the Odyssey was revamped in 2007 with the heavier duty powertrain from the Ridgeline. From what I've seen the 2009/2010's are proving to be very reliable, with one notable exception: the Touring model. That model has a few issues, from its special engine mounts, to the variable cylinder management, to the outlandishly expensive run-flat tires with monitoring (you're talking $500-600 per tire). Anyway, we're very happy with the 2010 and the improvements over prior series. Regards.
  • rfreitasrfreitas Member Posts: 63
    2009 transmission issues are starting to trickle in now:

    http://www.odysseytransmission.com/ProblemCases/2009Page1
  • rfreitasrfreitas Member Posts: 63
    2007 transmission problems are also starting to be reported:

    http://www.odysseytransmission.com/ProblemCases/2007Page1
  • odysy07odysy07 Member Posts: 2
    I can't urge you enough not to buy one. As you can read from website with litereally thousands and thousands of postings from as early back as 1999 with the same transmission and master cylinder problems. This is not a new issue nor has it been fixed in the newer models. Honda need to recall \fix these vans plain and simple. My 2007 started having this issue at 28,000 miles. First they tried the computer software upgrade then the Torque converter. Finally the replaced the whole transmission The master cylinder also had to be replaced along with MANY others. This issue is being reported with the 2009's already... Steer clear from the Odyssey.....N
  • slantinslantin Member Posts: 4
    The newest models don't seem to have a problem. But it's hard to figure out if that's the real case since we thought the vans won't have a problem way back in 2003.
  • paul157paul157 Member Posts: 4
    I have a 2007 Odyssey EX. My First Honda, bought new. Our third mini-van. The last one was a 2000 Montana. My wife wishes she had her Montana back. I like the Odyssey, but we have had our problems. New steering pump, and transmission problems. It is still under warranty. They replaced the torque converter and then it still had issues, they reprogrammed the trans. Shifting is still strange and the torque converter at 55-60 can't make up it's mind what it wants to do. Down shifting is rough. Honda tested it, and admits it shifts strange, but is within tolerances. So, it is all mine. I have forgotten how it is suppose to shift and feel. At 65 and over, it does fine. Fuel mileage is not very good. Is comfortable and roomy. Easy to drive. A/C compressor stays on year round and I was told that is the design. So, good luck. Mine still goes forward and backward in reverse....I would not buy another one. Not as impressive as I expected a Honda to be.
  • odysseyowner4odysseyowner4 Member Posts: 2
    First, thanks for this forum! I thought I was alone with our transmission problem on our 2008 Odyssey. Same dealer response - nothing wrong. We have the same shudder at 30-40mph, really just under 40 going up a slight incline, just when you need to apply more accelerator. Same as that posted in message 1093 of this forum.

    I am pulling together printouts of this forum to march into the dealer and get the torque converter. Thank goodness I am within the drivetrain warranty (38k). This isn't anything like our '90 civic that lasted to 282,000 before being given to a recent high school student, or the CRX that went to something like 300k+ miles.

    Sure, this is a great van and it works great 99% of the time. I just hate the attitude of the dealer. The do not in any way believe the customer and their 'test' techniques only favor the dealership. Our van pulled violently to the left since new, but the dealer said that it went straight at 35mph for 7 seconds - within spec. I forced them to align it, they were aghast that I might know something better than them. Ahhhh - the alignment report said that, in fact, it was terribly out of spec, but I still had to pay the 79.95 for the alignment.

    Wish me luck on getting a converter. My only hope is to bury them in a paper trail so that when the trans fails out of the warranty period, they have a clear record of the problems.
  • odysseyowner4odysseyowner4 Member Posts: 2
    I am not alone!!!! Same problem, same conditions. Trying to get them to listen seems to be terribly time wasting. I hate to be driven to threats, but it seems that is the only strategy that works with Honda anymore.

    My Chevy dealer bends over backwards to help. My Mercedes dealer bends over backwards and jumps through hoops. Honda treats me like an idiot. Time for them to be knocked off the pedestal!
  • jpfjpf Member Posts: 496
    Many of these "car ratings" are highly over rated when listing the "better" or "best buy" vehicles. All makes and models have their pluses and minuses. I have a 2006 Dodge Caravan, base model that was purchased brand new in Sept. 2006. Paid $15,900 on the road. Only non-routine maintenance has been replacing the serpentine belt twice because of glazing. Cost $50 each time. Front pads replaced at 32k miles and rear are still original. I have close to 50k miles on the van. Consumers Reports always pans the Chrysler vans.
  • rudy23rudy23 Member Posts: 1
    Did American honda send out the additional warranty extension notices after it extended the warranty on the Odyssey transmission to 93 months and 109,000 miles? Did anyone get this notice? The only one I got was the 7 yr 100k mileage warranty. I dont think the additional warranty was sent.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    edited March 2010
    It just shows you how different your outcome can be. We had a '97 Grand Caravan Sport. In 3 years of leasing we went thru a steering rack and pump, had much of the evaporative emissions system (tank pressure leakage) replaced, had tranny issues, and a seized brake caliper that wiped out a rotor. We were more than happy to give that van back. Next was an '00 Windstar. Better, but it still ate a tranny when only a few weeks old. It took Ford almost 12 weeks to get the van back on the road, because of a severe tranny shortage (apparently we were one of many thousand failures that year, and they couldn't rebuild them fast enough!). After weeks of screaming, we were shipped a brand new unit for installation.

    By comparison, the '02 Ody (120k) has been relatively good. The tranny was replaced at 35k miles, and it sometimes performs a bit odd. Unfortunately, I think that this is a universal issue with 4000-4300 lb vehicles that are often loaded to well over 5000 lbs. They essentially use modified passenger car parts, yet are called upon to haul loads that rival my old Ford F-150 truck!
  • newodyprobnewodyprob Member Posts: 3
    Seems like I'm on the same track as you. Just bought my 2007 odyssey and with the quick test drive didn't feel the problems. From 1st to 2nd gear and 2nd to 3rd gear has a very hard downshift. It feels like I'm in the car teaching a 15 year old how to drive a manual 5 speed. My van also does random surges in rpm's which is so annoying. I have had the van for 3 weeks and each Saturday since I have purchased it have had it at Honda. First, they did the program update (which caused the rpm surges) and second they just installed the torque converter with absolutely no difference. I would love any suggestions! Was there a difference when you replaced the whole transmission and master cylinder. I don't know what to do. Love the car but can't drive it like this!

    Thanks,
    M
  • phlion79phlion79 Member Posts: 11
    >> My van also does random surges in rpm's which is so annoying.

    I've got a 2007 also. At first I thought this was a real issue, but after watching the behavior for the last 6 months, I'm convinced, at least in my case, it is a symptom of Honda's drive by wire accelerator software just being too sensitive. What I was seeing were small jumps in the tach while I was steady driving -- would not see under acceleration or while slowing down. Well, after watching things closely, I think the software in the honda is programmed such that *any* downward movement of the accelerator pad, if at a constant speed, is deemed to be a request for power, and hence the bump of the tach. In other words, you can replicate the bump of the tach by barely depressing the accelerator pad. In sum, in real world driving conditions, the accelerator pad is never completely still -- it's always moving a little bit up and down as you go over bumps, etc., -- and the software is just too sensitive. I drove a prius recently (drive by wire accelerator again) and saw very similar behavior. I think this is just an artifact of drive by wire accelerators.
  • phlion79phlion79 Member Posts: 11
    Regarding your other issues, this is just the honda transmission -- get used to it. I talked w/ an independent transmission repair shop here before buying my ody, and he said you'll feel the downshifts -- just the way it is; it's not the smoothest tranny in the world. At least in my case, I'm the only one that seems to notice (I haven't pointed out to my wife lest she start complaining about it).
  • lgodfreylgodfrey Member Posts: 5
    Hi I have the rpm surge's far as I know that is normal. I don't have the hard down shift. Mine started to act funny when shifting from first to second then a week later the transmission went out. The new transmission acts about the same and I also love my
    Oddessy but my advice to you is to sell it or trade it in on something else!
  • venky_bnvenky_bn Member Posts: 1
    The dealer replaced our transmission at 70K that was covered by warranty. The transmission gave up again at 140K. This car was serviced by the dealer each time. Now Honda is refusing to pay for a new transmission claiming the 140K is too much - although the new transmission has only 70K miles.
  • hogan773hogan773 Member Posts: 255
    your car is 10 yrs old.......do you expect that Honda should do a free warranty for as long as you choose to own a car?
  • lgodfreylgodfrey Member Posts: 5
    If you had warranty work done on your car and it went out in a 1 1/2 yrs after would you be upset?
  • chris0201chris0201 Member Posts: 1
    I'm not an expert, rfreitas, but I think I know my vehicle histories and reputations. In 2004, Honda came out with their 5-speed automatic transmission that eventually was used in all their models. The '04 Odyssey was the first Honda minivan to use this transmission, and their problems dramatically declined. Earlier model Odyssey's, like my 2000, used a 4-speed automatic. I just started reading these message on the Odyssey transmission problems, this evening, and I have to say I'm a bit shocked to find that current-model Odysseys (2007 thru 2009) are apparently experiencing problems again. I thought those demons were long-departed. Apparently not. HOWEVER, good service intervals and rational driving have kept my 2000 EX Odyssey moving without transmission problems ... so far. It has 150,000 miles on it, and I have the transmission serviced every two years - by Honda; nobody else touches it. Keep one thing in mind, though, in shopping for ANY minivan - no other passenger vehicle takes as much stress as a minvan. 4500 pounds heavy; add upwards of 800 pounds of people, plus 100-200 pounds of luggage, and you're asking a LOT from a vehicle, shaped like a truck, but engineered like a car !! ... You just can't treat 'em like a truck, 'cause they ain't ...
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    your years are a bit off.

    the 5 speed AT (for V6 modles) came out in the 2000 MY, at least in the Acura TL. I believe the Odyssey fot it for 2001 (at the latest). it did initially come out in 1999 with the 4 speed. But it had the 5 speed long before 2004.

    The 2005 Ody redesign carried over the same basic tranny. In 2007, they switched to a different (more robust in theory) 4 shaft design 5 speed AT (basically the tranny from the Pilot).

    The problems for 2007+ seem to be mostly related to the torque converter, which is a different issue than the main tranny failures on earlier models.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • autowriteautowrite Member Posts: 226
    My 2002 Odyssey was the first year the 5-speed came out.
  • nedlyjnedlyj Member Posts: 89
    Correct - the 5-speed AT was first available (on the Odyssey) on model year 2002 Odysseys.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    it phased on over a couple of years for different models. I thought 2001 was the first year. I know the 2000 TL was the first year the TL got it.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • avucarguyavucarguy Member Posts: 56
    My brother in law has a 2005 Odyssey Exl +Navi + Dvd with over 90K miles. I helped him buy this van back in late 2004. He has no transmission issues. I had driven this van on several occasions, and it is way nicer than my 02 MPV.
    I have owned 3 Honda Accord in the past with automatics. My 94 and 99 accord does have hard shifting trannies, but there were nothing wrong with them.
    My 02 Mazda MPV transmission can shift hard too 1st to 2nd gear, but there is nothing wrong with it either. Honda automatics has hard shifting characteristics, especially if you are comparing them to GM transmissions. Being different does not mean broken. I understand earlier Odyssey 99-04 does have transmission issues, but a friend of mine at work has a 99 Odyssey with 140K+ miles with no transmission issues either. He used this van for his painting business, it looks beat up, but runs fine.
    Make sure you have your transmission fluid change per Honda recommendation or more frequently. Keep up with routine maintenance and your var will last much longer.
    If you have issues with the transmission, bring it in and have it checked out, it will be documented by the dealer in case your transmission do break down in the future. Then use can use this to prove that you were having issues with the transmission, if it breaks down after the warranty period is over.
  • hogan773hogan773 Member Posts: 255
    Maybe I misread the message, but he was complaining that they replaced the tranny at 70K miles and then it failed again at 140K (and his title suggests the car is 10 years old). Then you somehow ask whether I would be upset after 1 1/2 years. Where did he say that?

    Did he drive 70K miles in 1.5 years? Is he a taxi driver? :confuse: ">
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    No. The 2002 was a face lift from the otherwise 1999-2001 second series Ody. In 2002 the revamped model received a 30 hp bump due to a number of engine mods, the 5 spd tranny, side impact airbags, 7 spoke alloy wheels with 225/60-16 tires, a new grill, amber rear turn signals, suspension tweeks (new struts/springs), and some minor interior bits.

    We initially were looking to buy an '01, but when we saw the preview sheet for the '02 for an additional $300, it was a no-brainer.
  • nedlyjnedlyj Member Posts: 89
    First, to answer the question: No, I wouldn't be. Second, this isn't the point. Warranty work is generally warranted for 30 days. However - Honda warrants their replacement transmissions for 3 years or 36,000 miles - not a bad replacement warranty. So, either my warranty was 30 days, in which I couldn't really be mad if it lasted 1.5 years, or my warranty was for 3 years, so it was still under warranty - and I still wouldn't be mad.

    So, back to the initial points, if the original Honda warranty on a transmission is 60K miles, and they replaced it free at 70K miles, with a 36,000 mile warranty, even that takes you to an "actual" warranted period of 106,000 miles that was given. Fairly good I'd think. So, when the transmission is now bad at a total of 140,000 miles (and 10 years, including that the newer tranny also has 70K miles on it) why would we think we should get another free one now? Which car company says "we'll repair your transmission free for life, no matter how many miles you have on your car?" If Honda credits anything towards the new transmission after 140K miles consider yourself fortunate.

    And yes, I too am on my 3rd transmission (replaced at 60K and 130K).
  • rfreitasrfreitas Member Posts: 63
    You are missing the point. People buy Hondas because they are supposed to be great quality. Why would I want to buy a vehicle where I would have to spend $3000 every 70k miles on a new transmission.. Honda provides a 36k mile warranty on the replacent transmission because they know the transmission will last to 70k miles, convenient...

    I think they need to change the maintenane schedule to include "Replace Transmission every 70k miles" for the Odyssey.

    Keep buying odyssey's, I am done with Honda!
  • svandre21224svandre21224 Member Posts: 3
    edited March 2010
    95k miles and one week after the Honda Care warranty expired based on time (6 years), BAM! This is my fifth Honda, but my first Odyssey. I was told in 2004 that the AT trans problem was solved by the use of a oil jet for the 2nd gear, still got the warranty. Honda has known for years that the transmission used with V6 in all Honda and Acura cars, minivans, and MDXs was too wimpy for the HP and torque of that motor. Current models get the transmission from the Ridgeline truck. Wonder if my local T-shop can retrofit a Ridgeline trans to my 04?

    BTW, got the "not our problem" answer from American Honda and the "Oh, tough luck" response from Honda Care, a sister company that Amer. Honda says is "not us".

    My independent AT shop, that has been around for 50 years, will get the same Honda remanufactured trans from the Honda facility in Ohio through a distributor and install it for less (~$2K less) with a 3 year/100,000 miles warranty. Must have been a slow day in the repair department at the dealer for them to come up with $5900.00
  • donc67donc67 Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2007 EX with 33000 miles on it. I have had the humming or droning noise, sounding like it is coming from the back because it was quieter with people in the back than when empty except for my wide and I. I even replaced the tires because they need it, but also with the hope that new tires would quiet down the noise as per other posts about old, worn tires were noisy. No go.
    Then, I recently was exiting an expressway at a higher than normal speed (this is my wife's van and we drive a little differently). I noticed that the noise increased as I went around the ramp and went back to normal on a straightaway.
    An "aha" moment arose...wheel bearings. Took it to my Honda dealer, out of warranty of course due to more than 36 mos. They replaced the left rear wheelbearing and the sound went away.
    Maybe this will work for some of you. Service mgr. said they hadn't had many of this problem come in and had not thought to try this before as most people, myself included thought it was a vibration of tranny, A-pipe,left front bearings, etc.
  • newodyprobnewodyprob Member Posts: 3
    Here is the recent update about my car. Took it in again to Honda and the service tech ran some diagonistic test and used a camera to take snap-shots of what was happening. They told me they can see the problem and were going to put in a new transmission. Well then someone at Honda warranty center put a stop to that. They told my local tech that they know about the problem and a new tranny will not fix the problem. It is a computer "bug" that they do not have a fix for. They had the tech clear out the "memory" and suggested that sometimes fixes the problem. Well of course it didn't. So basically I have a car with 29k miles on it that is completely under warranty that they have evidence of a problem but can not fix it. As a consumer --were do you go from here! So FYI for all of you that your Honda techs are telling you it is just the car...it is not. They know about all these problems but have no fix for them. After 4 weeks of owning my car I'm about to trade it in but that just means the poor old soul who buys it will have to deal with it and I will be out thousands of dollars.
  • rfreitasrfreitas Member Posts: 63
    They just want to wait till you are out of warranty, so you will have to pay for it... What year is it?
  • dylrexdylrex Member Posts: 111
    I've been monitoring this discussion ever since my van started to shutter which was around 36K miles. I was also noticing the rpm's would jump slightly around 1400-1500. I took it to the dealer right away and they performed the software upgrade. That didn't help one bit. The van was still doing the same thing the day I picked it up from the dealership. I took the van back in this past Saturday. The van currently has around 43K miles on it and the service advisor informed me that the torque converter is bad and will need to be replaced. The part is on order and should be in any day now. I'm hoping this will fix this annoying issue. Our lease is up in June and we're definitely looking to get another van but we're not sure it will be an Odyssey. I asked the service guy if they have seen any problems with the 2010 models and he said they haven't yet. Has anyone heard of this problem in the '10 models?
  • svandre21224svandre21224 Member Posts: 3
    After repeated calls to my American Honda "case worker" and no response, I decided to fight the battle after the repair and had the AT replaced by my local, well respected transmission shop. Total cost for installation of a Honda remanufactured AT for my 04 Odyssey V6 with a 3yr/100000 mile warranty was $2,750.00 (AT, fluids, labor, and taxes). A little more than 1/2 price. Honda insisted on installing a control module, but the T-shop said they don't because they have never needed to replace one on that model Odyssey. Honda dealer's argument was that the module is matched to the transmission, so when the transmission breaks you need a new module. I asked the dealer's service rep what happens when the module breaks, do I need a new transmission? That sent him away muttering, as I lip read him calling me a part of the human anatomy.
  • newodyprobnewodyprob Member Posts: 3
    That is what I keep thinking---it is a 2007. However, I now have evidence from the service tech that something is wrong with it now with 29k miles. The tranny is under warranty until 60k and I think the dealership realizes I'm not going away. I'm supposed to get a call after the tech calls Honda tech line today. Seems that my local tech is just as annoyed as I am. Tech line is having the local tech run in circles because ultimately there is no fix. I will continue to push but at some point I think I need to call a lemon, a lemon and ditch the car. Funny thing is the local dealer wants nothing to do with my car---a perfect condition, low miles, 2007 Odyssey!!!
  • rfreitasrfreitas Member Posts: 63
    Have you seen the 2007's issues reported here:

    http://www.odysseytransmission.com/ProblemCases/2007Page1

    This site has transmission issue reported on just about every year since 1999. I don't see any 2010's yet, but they probably don't have enough miles on it yet...
  • autowriteautowrite Member Posts: 226
    Odyclub.com has a survey running.
    http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=c5768354a6b040f9e06ff1f1ac33d1f1&- postid=565428#post565428

    At the top of this page it shows a chart of how many transmssions get changed - number of times, never, etc.
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