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Would You Avoid a Manufacturer Because of Bad Public Policy?
Election day is here, so I have a philosophical question related to our elected leaders and those who support them.
My example is that Toyota and TMMI publicly supported our Governor of Indiana in his push for the Major Moves legislation that passed this spring. I consider this legislation bad public policy, and therefore, I will not consider buying a Toyota.
So, would you not buy a car from a given manufacturer based on their support or opposition of some public policy/legislation that was important to you?
Get out and vote!
My example is that Toyota and TMMI publicly supported our Governor of Indiana in his push for the Major Moves legislation that passed this spring. I consider this legislation bad public policy, and therefore, I will not consider buying a Toyota.
So, would you not buy a car from a given manufacturer based on their support or opposition of some public policy/legislation that was important to you?
Get out and vote!
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If I am socially conscious enough, I can find a good reason to boycott any company. Anheuser-Busch (and Coors & Miller, plus many others, I suspect) gave money to candidates I don't like, so gone are my domestic beer drinking days. All of the homebuilders in my area publicly support a candidate who is very anti- AmendmentThatKirstieCaresAbout. So, if I want a new home, I'll have to build it myself or move out of the area.
If you want to make a personal statement about a corporation based on an certain issue that is very near & dear to you, then fine - but note that keeping track of agendas of all of the companies from whom you may purchase is extremely hard work, and may result in a total inability to purchase anything from anyone, ever.
So, regardless of their political agenda, if a Toyota is the best product for my driving needs, that's what'll sit in my driveway.
VOTE.
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For instance, I know people on the left who won't eat Domino's Pizza (founded by a far-right Christian) or on the right who won't eat Ben and Jerry's (don't really need to spell that one out...).
But it doesn't really matter in terms of the operation of the marketplace. The beauty of the market is that producers have to produce goods that reflect consumer preferences, not theirs. Otherwise, they'll go out of business. So Domino's pizzas come with mounds of extra cheese, not bible verses, and Ben and Jerry's doesn't make you sign a "save the whales" petition when you buy a pint.
And by buying the goods/services that fit your needs/desires for their instrinsic performance, you tend to have more resouces left over (money, time) that you can put to directly dealing with political issues important to you! :shades:
Congrats... that's one of the most well-written lines I've seen in the Forums. It sure would take a lot more time at the grocery checkout if every pint of Chunky Monkey came with a Greenpeace petition, and every U2 album with a "Forgive 3rd World Debt" support card.
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Taken to an extreme by ignorance and/or apathy, a consumer could be buy stolen merchandise, child labor produced products, etc., and not even know it.
In a competitive market, there are many good and essentially equal quality choices, therefore, maybe small issues like public policy will effect buyers decisions?
Too bad many companies today are not neutral in this regard.
Finally, the fact that I will not buy a Toyota and possibly other Hoosiers reading this forum will not is affecting the market one sale at a time!
Plenty indeed do...for years, clothing made overseas in developing nations was (and often still is) produced by what we would call child labor.
I think you make an interesting point about public policy positions being a distinguishing factor in an increasingly competitive marketplace...but is there actually any policy issue where the buying public's opinion is overwhelmingly one-sided?
If there were, in theory, the company would already have adapted its stance, rather than lose that majority business.
Otherwise, firms with a political position calculate that people who support that position must be at least equal to those who disagree with it, therefore canceling each other out...the market value to the firm then becomes the consumers who buy based on the product's instrinsic qualities.
But wouldn't Toyota want every customer they could get (not that they need it right now) and avoid political statements in the first place?
I run a small business and avoid making any political endorsements because I feel it is not a prudent use of my time.
It does seem odd, yes. Usually, if firms are going to "go political", the saavy ones give to both parties/positions, as a way to hedge bets. But in this case, Toyota is probably expecting some big concessions from the governor, hence why it would expend its "market capital" on something so political and potentially alienating. From Toyota's pov: Value of pork from the administration > value of lost sales for its position.
It's kinda depressing (one expects this kind of stuff from Ford and GM, but not a real competitor like Toyota), but it is the way of our system, for better or worse.
I guess our system needs to be changed and improved. Maybe the next batch of elected leaders will listen?
Rocky
I agree with that for the most part. There are many companies out there that support things I do not, but unless its one of my "hot issues" I am not going to do much about it.
However if its a hot issue for me I many times will find myself being influenced by that. Also many times there are other issues I will have with a company and a political issue just pushes it over the line (in a case where either the political issue or the other issues alone wouldn't).
VOTE
Yes VOTE EARLY, VOTE OFTEN.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You are going to have to pay Daley a fee for the use of his motto.
Seriously, had a friend of mine at our local bakery
whisper to me that Saturday was her last day. I asked her where she would be going. Her response was that she was heading to the new WalMart Supercenter. Asked her what she thought about working for WalMart ... and she told me this.
She had been working at a union grocery BUT they would never give her any hours and the union dues she was paying were as much as the full-time employees. Her current employer (the local business guy) gives no benefits and few raises ... AND she'll get a $2.50/hr raise.
All I have to say is that I USED to work for one of those "BEST 100 EMPLOYERS" that would give all those "politically correct" benefits - flex time, extra time for mothers, etc. And all I remember is having to cover for all those benefits ... at no extra pay.
Give me ANY corporation and generally you can make a good argument for or against them.
Ford, Daimler Benz, and VW had strong pro-[non-permissible content removed] ties. Mitsubishi built the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor ... you get the drift.
Though plenty of the smaller items in our lives (televisions, etc.) are already made there, there's something different about a vehicle that still is able to provoke strong emotion in people.
Given our balance of trade with China, and that it's an honest-to-god totalitarian state, I wonder how much negative reaction they'll be. Or will people just shrug and say the like how inexpensive a new car can be? :confuse:
People are going to be cautious and be thinking Yugo.
Though plenty of the smaller items in our lives (televisions, etc.) are already made there,
Consumer electronics and clothing have very few moving parts. A car is a moving part with many moving parts making it work. There in lies the big difference. The Chinese are going to have to prove that they are not the next Yugo.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
EltonRon
Host- Automotive News and Views
Yes, some of those vehicles were old over 20 years ago, but, fair or not, many car buyers have LONG memories.
Outside these forums, I've never heard anyone say, "I'm not buying this brand of car because of its maker supports this or that policy."
It's always because of a bad experience with a lemon, coupled with a dealer who didn't really care about service after the sale.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But thinking more about something jrdwyer said earlier (about if public policy positions will take on growing importance as market competition intensifies)...
With the Chinese cars, I imagine they'll be Yugo-like at first, but then quickly evolve into something Hyundai-like in quality. So they'll be fairly attractive to buyers in the U.S.
But is the fact that they're produced in a dictatorship with an appalling human-rights record and poor labor/environmental standards, coupled with an increased feeling in the U.S. of being economically disadvantaged by China's growth, lead to some people avoiding the cars? Esp. when a S. Korean one is not that much more expensive? As we've just seen, the country is moving leftward...will it more leftward enough for these things to matter in the market?
The people who know - lemon law lawyers, mechanics who work on a variety of makes, people who work at used car auctions - invariably say that those makes have a good reputation for reliability because they have earned it. I have yet to hear anything to the contrary.
With the European marques, it is the driving experience and superior build quality (which is different from reliability).
To be perfectly honest I don't think that Honda nor Toyota makes them any much better that anyone else. i keep hearing people on these forums talking about the work they needed to have done on them, I see my family and friends with them having as much trouble as those i know that don't have Toyotas or Hondas.
In this case it is more of perception creating its own reality more so that reality shaping perception.
Case in point I have a sister whose toyota goes into the shop like clock work still bragging about how much more reliable her car is.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
For example, I know exactly ONE satisfied VW owner. Everyone else is either having problems with their VWs, or has traded it for something else.
And, if we are using anecdotal evidence here, my wife's 2000 Cavalier gave up the ghost at 113,000 miles (and the air conditioning compressor had conked out at 50,000 miles). It needed a complete engine rebuild. But she didn't go to the imports - she bought a 2005 Ford Focus SE sedan, which has been good so far (32,000 miles).
And, turning to evidence of a more non-anecdotal variety, the professionals who deal with many makes of vehicles in various capacities all tell me the the same thing about Honda and Toyota reliability - it is based on fact, not mere perception.
They also say that the domestics have improved dramatically over the past 10 years (particularly Ford).
Very well but that doesn't negate the fact that these cars with their stellar reputations break down just as much as most other cars, even ones without steller reputations.
I know a guy, a master mechanic, who used to work for "steller reputation" motors (you figure out which one). He was one of the guys that came out to dealerships when the factory would "send someone out". For that he used a company car. But for his personal car he drove a GM. I asked him why his reply was "don't believe the hype".
perception creates its own reality.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With the exception of a few "trouble" models (early Neons, certain Kias, etc.), breakdowns are as much a function of the maintenance that YOU perform (or fail to perform) as they are of make.
Personally, I am more concerned with those automakers that fail to do recalls in lieu of "secret warranties" (see Lemonaidcars.com for details).
Rocky
And the proof to back up this "fact" is found exactly where? Sorry, but that is not a fact, that is your opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion, but until you back it up with independent sources, it remains an opinion, not a fact. At this point, the rating agencies agree with me. Until I see something substantial to discredit them - something more than "They don't give my favorite cars high ratings, so I don't believe them" - I'll go by their results.
snakeweasel: I know a guy, a master mechanic, who used to work for "steller reputation" motors (you figure out which one). He was one of the guys that came out to dealerships when the factory would "send someone out". For that he used a company car. But for his personal car he drove a GM. I asked him why his reply was "don't believe the hype".
And I knew a master mechanic who worked for a local chain of dealers that included a Pontiac-GMC-Buick franchise, and a Toyota franchise.
His car of choice?
A Toyota Camry, because, in his words, "Don't kid yourself - there is a difference. Toyotas are better."
What rating agencies?
And CR doesn't count.
A Toyota Camry, because, in his words, "Don't kid yourself - there is a difference. Toyotas are better."
Tell that to my sister, I don't think she ever had a Toyota that went more than 30K miles before something major went on it. Of course she states that they are the best cars ever made. Perception creates its own reality.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And CR doesn't count.
Really...and who decides this?
As the old saying goes, "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
I would certainly consider evidence to the contrary, but it has to go deeper than anecdotal stories from friends and relatives.
If we are going to use anecdotal experiences to "create reality," I must say that the experiences of my friends and relatives supports the reliability of Toyotas and Hondas.
Meanwhile, my wife's 2000 Chevrolet Cavalier had the air conditioning compressor die at 50,000 miles, and the engine itself died at 113,000 miles.
My parent's 1999 Buick Park Avenue just had its 3.8 V-6 ruined by the infamous leaking intake-head gasket at 107,000 miles.
snakeweasel: Tell that to my sister, I don't think she ever had a Toyota that went more than 30K miles before something major went on it. Of course she states that they are the best cars ever made. Perception creates its own reality.
And my dad just asked me for information on the new Buick Lucerne. His "perception" is that GM still makes long-lasting cars, although his "reality" tells a different story.
My mother-in-law's 1999 Chevrolet Malibu features a heater fan that doesn't work on the first two settings, the alternator has failed, and she has had other problems with the car. But she is still interested in the new-generation Malibu.
Anecdotal evidence cuts both ways, which is why we need third-party data. If there is evidence that is superior to that gathered by Consumer Reports, I'd consider it.
1) My personal belief as a GM owner, is that Toyota makes better products. PERIOD.
I would attribute it to three reasons:
On the procurement end, they are far more concerned with defect-free parts from their suppliers and for developing long-term relationships with their sellers. GM's buyers are looking for price. I see this constantly in their RFPs for parts.
On the manufacturing end, they have better manufacturing systems. They try to make it right the first time and are constantly changing their assembly lines to find perfection.
Finally, their employees are more motivated to turn out good vehicles. My father and several family members as well as a number of in-laws have worked for GM over the years. The stories I have heard is that they do enough to stay out of trouble.
2) Since Toyota owners EXPECT that their cars will last longer, they perform the NECESSARY MAINTENANCE more often.
So many domestic owners do NOT perform even the most BASIC repairs on a timely basis.
Head gaskets do not generally fail in a given week. In most cases, there is clear evidence of leaking for MONTHS before there is outright failure. In my 1996 Ciera, the head gasket started showing evidence of leaking about 12 months ago so I replaced it before the leak got worse. Why let an engine FAIL when a $400 repair will keep it going for years?
A co-worker had a Crown Vic in mint condition and let his engine fail because he wouldn't do the $500 in required repairs. It make NO sense to me.
(For the record, rubber gaskets on 12 year old Toyotas also fail.)
By the way, a GM heater fan motors lasts about 75k miles. It is a $225 repair with labor at many shops. It is disappointing that the same parts that failed on a 1980s model still fails at the same regularity on a 2004 model but that is what got GM where they are at now.
I am convinced that if people would take the time to maintain their vehicles, a lot fewer people would need replacements so often.
3) Personally, if I wanted to increase satisfaction with a particular model, I would extend the warranty on the entire product to 100k miles. With one CAVEAT. If you want the extended warranty, you need to bring the car in every 15k miles RELIGIOUSLY at which point, the required maintenance would be performed at a REASONABLE price.
That way, you can replace the parts most likely to fail on a timely basis avoiding the usual breakdowns in the process.
I do seeing that I am asking you for your proof and I don't trust CR any further than I could throw a bull elephant.
Seeing that your post doesn't give any I rest my case.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You've got to make a case before you can rest it.
As I said, if there is evidence superior to the reliability ratings compiled by Consumer Reports, I will consider it.
So far, none has been forthcoming.
Anecdotal evidence is all that has been offered to make the case, and I think that I've pretty well countered it with my anecdotal evidence.
The inherent back-and-forth nature of anecdotal evidence is why it is best to rely on data systematically collected by third parties.
As I said, if there is any evidence that is proven to be superior to that collected by Consumer Reports, I will consider it.
I rest my case.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That is not evidence. That is an anecdote.
You have not supported your claims that:
1. the data collected by Consumer Reports is inherently flawed; and
2. that the image of superior reliability enjoyed by certain marques rests solely on the mistaken perception of misguided owners.
As far as I'm concerned, a Buick is a long-lasting car and I'd have absolutely no reservations about buying a Lucerne. My girlfriend's LaCrosse has been excellent and I'd probably have to set out to deliberately destroy my 1988 Park Avenue to kill it. It's amazing how many surving LeSabres, Electras, and Park Avenues of this era I still see on the road long after many others, both foreign and domestic, from that time have bit the dust.
1. the data collected by Consumer Reports is inherently flawed;
1.) Its not a statistical sampling as they only survey their readers.
2.) They have a history of rating the exact same thing (but with different badges) differently.
3.) They have rated second rate items as winners of their tests while not even reporting on what everyone else considers the best.
4.) Think about it, does your subscription price really pay all of CR's expenses?
5.) I am sworn to secrecy on.
2. that the image of superior reliability enjoyed by certain marques rests solely on the mistaken perception of misguided owners.
JD Power Vehicle Dependability Study Results shows about 1/3 problems per car between the industry average and those so called superior reliability. It also shows less than .25 problems per car between "poorly rated cars and the industry average.
Basically a car near the bottom of the reliability list has an average of about 2.5 while those with superior reliability has about 2. Big difference there isn't it?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
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before you pull the trigger I'd wait for the 08' CTS, and test drive that first.
Rocky
If there were, in theory, the company would already have adapted its stance, rather than lose that majority business.
I think one thing being over looked here, that corporations and manufacturers of all sorts are certainly not unaware of, is this: Voter Ignorance/Voter Apathy.
How many people even vote? How many of those voters care (much less know) what a corporation's stance is on most issues? Most people aren't even familiar with all of the candidates on a ballot. I have to bring a list into the booth with me sometimes. How often are people going to go in with reams of information concerning all of the companies that they do business with? Huge corporations know that most of their wheeling and dealing can be done below the radar of public perception. They know this and count it. Even more, there is a limited public attention span. For every faux pas that Toyota (or any other company) commits, there is going to be a new announcement about who Paris Hilton is dating, or what Tom Cruise did in the media this week. People don't care. More to the point, people care more about things that don't matter. Entertain them, distract them, and companies know they can pretty much do what they want. It takes a major problem that ignites the ire of an advocacy group with Washington access to make a corporation change its stance. Even then its usually settled in court and away from the general public's knowledge.
People are blissfully ignorant in this country, by and large. They want the newest DVDs, they want to get drunk, they want to watch football, they want to eat at Burger King. The people contributing to this forum represent an unusual, and depressingly small, class of the populace. We care, we read, we listen, we think. A lot of us Americans don't. What do the people at your office talk about? Are they more interested in who got kicked off of Survivor and who won American Idle (Idol), or do they come to work worried about the fact that Exxon still hasn't paid Alaska the money they owe them for the Valdez oil spill?
The problem is so much deeper than what corporations are doing. Corporations do what they do because they can. I eat whatever pizza tastes the best and gets to my house the fastest. I drive whatever car is cheapest, most reliable, and best fits my needs.
As a previous poster said, most people don't have time to be that universally informed. And as I've pointed out, I hope, most people don't care anyway.
Rocky
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119412
iluv, Loren, you both like Hyundai/Kia, what do you think about this bad news ????
Rocky
Plus, handling conversations like that by e-mail helps keep the discussions automotive focused.
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You see, when I express myself on how much I love my Kia(and then go about doing so in great detail on forums like this)I am lobbying for Kia Motors.
Anyone on Edmunds for more than a few months knows how much good I have done for the brand on this and other forums. Kia represents hope for the automotive industry. Companies like Ford and DCX and GM are giant bringdowns for the car industry.
They charge a lot but don't deliver on their promises. You could argue that Kia hasn't provided excellent quality up-front product for everyone. Indeed, my first Kia, a 1999 Kia Sephia, had weak brake pads which caused premature rotor wear. I had them replaced at around 52,000 miles. I just paid the bill myself and didn't feel like involving myself in a class-action lawsuit.
I traded in the Sephia just after the two jets crashed into the WTC in NYC. I was itching to trade in and was going to buy a 2002 Kia Spectra sedan. My wife eschewed that idea within the first minute we hit the Kia sales lot! I looked at a 2002 Rio Cinco station wagon and even sat in it. She would have no part of it. She said that she's always liked Kia Sportage's and wanted a Sportage. So, we bought a Sportage. It's been a great litle SUV.
Without writing a novel on my Kia experiences I will say that I do love the brand and Mitsubishi has swayed me into liking their new Lancer. But I will always love the Kia brand.
And if someone within Kia broke some South Korean laws I will still love the brand. I am buying the car not the workers and front-office personnel and people involved in bribing officials. I have always been treated fairly by the two Kia dealerships I've done business with. If something didn't work right I'd tell them and they'd fix it. These Kia's have been very cheap to own and operate. Besides regular maintenance I have probably put about $500 in to buy an alternator and brake light switch. That is in 5 and a half years of ownership. I call that very low cost of ownership over 5 1/2 years. We're at about 126,975 miles right now. My OEM Hankook(Korean)tires lasted 102,000 miles and the top of Lincoln's head still was plunging below the tread! Incredible!
Ford and GM are a bunch of jerks who not only overlooked the American car buying public by over-milking their large pickup and SUV market here for way too long but they haven't been able to provide a good small car(the Geo Metro is a possible exception here...but it was made by Suzuki and marketed by GM). That was a dumb, bone-headed mistake on their part. Too little too late. The Pontiac Solstice is a positive step but it's too little too late.
GM stands the best chance of surviving financially because of good moves like their 2002 acquisition of South Korea's Daewoo Motors. And for some weird reason the American public's idea of a nice rig still seems to be a large pick-em-up truck or SUV. So they'll continue ad naseum to sell these largre, ugly monstrosites that are stinking and polluting up our environment to the hilt. Go figure.
Anyhoo-buy what you like but I think that Hyundai and Kia Motors America are well-established here. Sure, you have the CEO in trouble with S.Korea's legal system and large amounts of inventory available in Hyundai cars. They'll sell 'em off at discounts and continue on.
I'm just glad there's a variety of rigs to choose from and IMO the best vehicles to buy are either Japanese or South Korean. The Germans rigs are hideously pathetic and the Americans best just shut down their carmaking operations altogether and try to get work at Boeing building airplanes.
Learn how to put other people down constantly and build yourself up. In a while you'll be wearing nice clothes to work and ordering people around and calling yourself hotshot. Join the union and carry your union card proudly. Boeing does not frown on their workers drinking Starbuck's coffee and listening to music on their headphones while working. It's a good job with good pay and excellent benefits.
America has become, for whatever reason, crappy at making cars. Like it or lump it it's true, gentlemen.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
This is supposed to be about whether you'd avoid a manufacturer because of a bad public policy, not a debate about which models or manufacturers are your favorites.
So in other words, sell off the state assets and spend the money now and be sure to give work/favors to those who support you in this endeavor. THIS IS GOVERNMENT AT ITS WORST!
I really believe Mitch Daniels has Short Man's Syndrome and such ego boosting projects as Major Moves are his way of dealing with his own insecurities.
Let's hope that all the publicly funded interstates and highways in the USA aren't sold to the highest bidder.