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Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    link title

    Mercedes-Benz is claiming a major breakthrough in automotive battery development, announcing it will use lithium-ion technology in its upcoming S400 BlueHybrid that will go on sale in Europe in mid-2009. U.S. sales will follow in the third quarter of 2009.

    If Mercedes sticks to that schedule, the new upmarket gasoline-electric hybrid will be the first series-production road car to rely on lithium-ion batteries for the storage of energy, presaging a whole new lineup of hybrid models being readied by Mercedes-Benz for introduction in coming years.

    The move contrasts General Motors, which has announced that it will put a lithium-ion-based plug-in hybrid Saturn Vue on the market in 2010. GM also plans to use lithium-ion batteries to power its electric vehicles based on the Volt concept. GM plans to deliver the electric cars, which store power in batteries that are charged by plugging into the power grid or by using small onboard gasoline or diesel engines or fuel cells to generate onboard power, in 2010 as well.


    Coolness !!!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    BMW 520d over the Prius. Doesn't make the BMW any more enviro-friendly, but interesting nonetheless and it looks like they had fun doing the test:

    To find out we set a challenge: to drive a Prius to Geneva using motorways and town driving. The direct route is 460 miles but we drove almost 100 miles further to give the Prius the advantage of running in urban conditions where its petrol-electric drivetrain comes into its own.

    We took along a conventionally powered car – a diesel BMW executive saloon – for comparison and drove both cars an identical number of miles (545).


    http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/used_car_reviews/art- icle3552994.ece

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would make a comment, however it would get the hybrid vs diesel row going again.

    Coasting down the mountain into Geneva my Prius averaged 99.9mpg for a full 10 minutes. It was the highlight of my journey and improved my overall average fuel economy by a full 2mpg. But it was not enough. For all my defensive driving, slippery bodywork and hybrid technology, my average fuel consumption was 48.1mpg. I’d lost to a Beemer and I was disappointed; I had never driven so slowly or carefully for so long in my life.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    No to start a ROW, but...........

    One of the cars:

    polluted far more during the test,
    costs WAY more than the other car,
    has a manual tranny, known for superior fuel efficiency versus and auto tranny,
    and would be way more expensive to fillup in the USA than the other car.

    Interesting test results, however. I think everyone knows diesels are preferable as a touring highway car by now though.

    Anyone who is surprised by the result is not "in the know" about modern cars.

    That's why I'm patiently waiting on a diesel hybrid sedan. Best of both worlds.

    P.S. I'd like my chances in my 2004 Civic Hybrid with manual tranny versus the BMW. I had one "highway tank" which was 56.4 MPG.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the writer's biggest disappointment was getting stuck driving the Prius while the other guy got the BMW.

    The price difference is not as much as you think. The Prius goes for 21,000 GBP and the BMW for 27,000 GBP. The BMW is a car to enjoy your driving experience. The Prius gets you a free drive into London. Not that I have any desire to drive in London.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Just remember...

    We Voted Them In
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    Don't forget to read the whole legislation at the link in the announcement.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Which one's are new? All of them were sold in 2007 except for the Vue to the best of my recollection.
  • mcgronmcgron Member Posts: 1
    According to this site, the Porsche Panamera will be the fastest hybrid when they will introduce in 2009. It looks like hybrid cars are catching up in terms of speed. Also, anyone knows how fast the new Tesla WhiteStar will be?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I've been enjoying the progress of the restoration of a Walker Dynamotive and perhaps others would also have interest.

    Phase 1

    Phase 2

    Hybrid is not a new concept. The craftsmanship in this restoration is amazing IMHO.
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    Interesting site, but this isn't a hybrid. A hybrid has two or more power sources (typically gasoline ICE and batteries). This truck is gasoline powered with a motor/generator for its transmission, basically the same approach as the diesel-electric locomotive.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Interesting site, but this isn't a hybrid. A hybrid has two or more power sources (typically gasoline ICE and batteries). This truck is gasoline powered with a motor/generator for its transmission, basically the same approach as the diesel-electric locomotive. "

    This is a "series" hybrid, a category that also includes the diesel electric locomotive. They aren't always referred to in this fashion, but that is the correct terminology.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Yes it is a series (or serial) hybrid.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote-
    For example, between 1938 and 1942 Walker Electric Trucks produced the Dynamotive. This series hybrid gasoline-electric truck definitely fits the definition of a hybrid.
    -end

    Hybrids and Alternative Fuels Deliver the Goods
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    @ moparbad I saw your earlier post and e-mailed some questions to Jay Crist. Here is just part of an e-mail that he took the time to prepare. He is definitely a do-er not a talker, and boy is he modest about what he does.

    "I'm not a very technical person so there a bunch of questions I can't answer. I don't know the specs on the electric motor. I do know the generator puts out 80 volts at 1,000 amps.
    - The drive motor and the power generator were completely rebuilt by Motor Technologies in York Pa.
    - As far as a schematic drawings is concerned, there is none known to be in existence. We were lucky to get 20 pages of a Walker manual from the son of the former Chief Electrical Engineer of the the Company.
    - The speed of the trucks is in the neighborhood of 40 mph.
    - The shaft that supports the electric motor is hollow to allow the 1" axle shaft to pass through it to the differential on the other end of the shaft.
    - You stated a Modern Test Drive Review would be fun to read if one of my drivers would have the time. I'm no Test Drive tech center. There are no other drivers, I'm the only person who drives these vehicles..... "

    "It is now in the paint shop until the end of the month and we will have it completed by the end of September ready to be on display at the Hershey AACA National Show on October 11th. It will also be on special Exhibit at the Hilton Head Concours d"Elegence Show November 1st & 2nd.2008."

    and there it is. A simply awesome achievement.

    Also thanx to moparbad for digging out that reference.

    The photos show four tell-tale terminal posts on the traction motor. Obviously a series wound machine. The series field has to be brought out separately and sent to the controller. That way by reversing the field connections at the controller will the motor be caused to reverse its rotation. Series motors are also used in trams except that here the voltage applied to the motor circuits is not a fixed value but is varied by speeding up the engine. Whether there is a variable field control on the generator I have no idea.

    I was thinking It would be possible to control the system with electronics 1938 style, although motion control circuits with tube amplifiers processing analog signals probably never occured to them way back then. Although television had started by that time and those circuits are fairly complex so the necessary skill sets would have been available. Imagine a situation with owners having to decide whether to call a mechanic or a tv repair person out whenever their vehicle won't go. Well it hasn't happened with the Prius yet !
    T2
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Robotic Prius eliminates Smug Driver

    A unusual motorcade made its way across the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge early one morning last week: a silver Toyota Prius, complete with police escort and camera crew, but with no driver at the wheel.

    The robotic Prius was the invention of Anthony Levandowski, 28, a computer engineer who lives in San Francisco, works in Silicon Valley, and built the so-called "Pribot" in his spare time.

    "Some people like to work on hot rods, boats, or airplanes," Levandowski said afterward. "I love robots."

    Pribot's real-world test started on September 7 at Pier 7, a nondescript slice of San Francisco's often-foggy waterfront, around 7:30 a.m. The autonomous vehicle drove along the Embarcadero, took a right on Harrison Street, turned onto the bridge itself, and exited at Treasure Island.

    The result? Years of hard work paid off. No little old ladies were run off the road. Pribot's trek, Levandowski said, took place without incident, save the car scraping its left side as it drove up the ramp exiting the Bay Bridge.

    This was far from his first experiment with self-guided vehicles. As a student at the University of California at Berkeley in 2004, Levandowski was part of a graduate student team that created a robotic motorcycle called Ghostrider to enter DARPA's Grand Challenge.


    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    He should team up with the folks that ran a Prius in DARPA last year and finished. Still got beat out by a VW and a Escape Hybrid.

    http://www.benfranklinracingteam.org/
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Judge Blocks Hybrid Taxi Requirement

    Dealing a sharp blow to the Bloomberg administration’s attempt to reduce air pollution and greenhouse gas emissions, a federal judge on Friday blocked New York City from requiring owners and operators of yellow taxicabs to switch to more fuel-efficient hybrid vehicles that operate on a mixture of gasoline and electricity.

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSL1182483200811- 01

    FRANKFURT, Nov 1 (Reuters) - Volkswagen plans to produce virtually all the components for motors used in hybrid and electric vehicles on its own unlike competitors who rely on suppliers, a German magazine reported.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    LOS ANGELES — Ford Motor will announce Wednesday that it plans to beat Toyota (TM) at its own game when it comes to hybrids.
    It's the latest example of U.S. automakers trying to "out-hybrid" Japanese brands that had a head start with the gas savers.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-11-18-ford-hybrids-toyota_N.htm

    Is this the new direction for Ford? Will it pull them out and ahead of the other domestic brands?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    An amazing road trip through adverse conditions nabs a World Record - ( Sorry, Jetta TDI )

    November 22nd, 2008 marked the beginning of a historic effort by three highly regarded Hypermilers to break a World Record established just two months prior. Completed September 25th, this record was achieved by Australians John and Helen Taylor in a 2009 VW Jetta 2.0L TDI sponsored by Volkswagen, Shell, and Navman. The Guinness verified record of 58.82mpg (US) set a new standard of efficiency in real world (official) mileage while traversing the country. Could our team of intrepid drivers overtake this lofty number in spite of unpredictable winter conditions?

    Not only did they overtake the target mileage, they exceeded it by 11.5% to establish the new record at 68.54mpg (US) in a 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid carrying three people and their luggage through all 48 contiguous states.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Our own Wayne Geddes did good. Congratulations!!!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Next Gen Prius = 62 MPG? Really?

    That might get me into a Prius.

    image
  • rick1946rick1946 Member Posts: 1
    DEAR FORUM FAMILY,
    I HAVE A 2007 TOYOTA CAMRY HYBRID. BOUGHT IT USED AND THE GMC USED AUTO DEALER CHANGED THE OIL, ETC.., BUT COULD NOT TURN OFF THE "MAINTENANCE NEEDED WARNING LIGHT?"
    CAN I DO THIS MYSELF? NO KEY, JUST A IGNTION FOB AND THEN PUSH A BUTTON TO START.
    THANK YOU,
    RICK1946
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    1. Set your odometer display to "Trip A."
    2. Turn your car off.
    3. Push the odometer button (from Step 1) again and hold it during Steps 4 and 5.
    4. Turn your car on.
    5. Wait a few seconds while 5 indicators in your display screen cycle on.
    6. Your display will tell you that the maintenance warning reset is complete.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    This story about an explosion of an RX400h is kinda scary

    http://gas2.org/2009/02/04/doctor-critically-injured-after-his-lexus-hybrid-expl- odes/

    No indication of a bomb involved in early reports, but it's hard to imagine that the car itself exploded and could be felt a mile away. I know there's the combination of high voltage and explosive liquids invloved, but wow.

    And you know how this will play out if nothing beynd the car is involved. We'll have the great hybrid scare of 2009 play out in the media :sick:
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Now they're saying a bomb was involved

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/04/doctor.car.blast/index.html
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    An "exploding hybrid" which exploded because of it's hybrid-ness would have to explode from the battery area, I would guess.

    I'll eat the front seat of my TCH over a 5-day period, with gravy, if a hybrid car ever explodes because of an explosive failure of a hybrid component.

    That's just a highly, highly unlikely scenario.

    I see freeway Car-B-Ques all the time in the Big City, but none of them have ever been a hybrid, to my knowledge.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Timely retraction/clarification. Fostering unfounded fears is the what the irresponsible do. An interesting side note apparently is that the design of the hybrid system can withstand the effect of a bomb exploded in the front of the vehicle without involving the hybrid battery. I seriouisly doubt that Toyota designed the vehicle to withstand such an event...but nevertheless good engineering.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    If it HAD been some freak hybrid explosion and felt a mile away, I would have thought there would be not much left of the vehicle. Even with it turning out not to be the car that exploded, you can see the need to dramatize everything. An explosion "felt a mile away" would seem to have done more damage than the photos I've seen.

    Back on news items...

    Ford Motor (F) says it will have plug-in hybrid electric vehicles in showrooms in 2012, promising 30 miles on battery power before the gasoline engine kicks in.
    Ford plans to underscore that promise with an announcement here today that it has contracted for lithium-ion battery cells with Johnson Controls-Saft, a U.S.-French joint venture that manufactures the batteries in France.


    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-02-02-ford-plug-in-hybrid_N.htm
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I posted this over on the Toyota 2009 thread...

    In brief discussions with Toyota personell at the Prius preview to the DC Auto show they noted that PHEVs will be part of the mix in the future but at the moment there just isn't that much money to be made from them.

    IOW they don't see much urgency to rush any PHEV vehicle to market because the vast vast vast majority of the US population is not ready technologically nor from a usage pov. The technology must progress and the public must get a taste for what these vehicles can do but how many will actually be sold? Not many. 'Not many' means not much money to be made.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    They don't say if this is a diesel hybrid, and turns out it's not, but it SHOULD BE DARNIT !!!

    VW Touareg Hybrid
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The TSI is a gas engine. Too bad so sad. They are supposed to be delivering the Touareg V6 TDI to dealers this Spring. Uses Urea so is off my list. Watching for a used ML320 CDI to get my diesel SUV. The others are all Urea and trouble in the making.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hybrid car sales go from 60 to 0 at breakneck speed

    By Ken Bensinger
    March 17, 2009
    The Ford and Honda hybrids due out this month are among dozens planned for the coming years as automakers try to meet new fuel-efficiency standards and please politicians overseeing the industry's multibillion-dollar bailout.

    Unfortunately for the automakers, hybrids are a tough sell these days.

    In July, U.S. Toyota dealers didn't have enough Prius models in stock to last two days, and many were charging thousands of dollars above sticker price for the few they had.

    Today there are about 80 days' worth on hand, and dealers are working much harder -- even with the help of $500 factory rebates -- to move the egg-shaped gas-savers off lots from Santa Monica to Miami.

    This month, Honda is offering $2,000 in cash, financing and leasing incentives to buyers of the formerly sold-out Civic hybrid, while a dealer in northern Michigan is dangling $6,000 cash back to those willing to buy a hulking Chevy Tahoe hybrid.

    The hybrid flood marks a lasting commitment to a powertrain technology that currently represents only about 2% of U.S. vehicle sales and, by most accounts, is deeply unprofitable.

    Toyota said last year that it was finally making money on the Prius after nearly a decade producing it, but executives at other automakers acknowledge that they lose money on every hybrid sold. "If we were making money on the Civic hybrid, we weren't making a lot," Honda spokesman Chris Martin said.


    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hybrid17-2009mar17,0,6682265.story
  • michaeldohertymichaeldoherty Member Posts: 3
    Of course the car makers were losing money on hybrids at first. They had to re-coup the cost of researching the new engines. Honda and Toyota are making money off their hybrid cars now, and Ford is about to with the release of their two new hybrids.

    As for hybrid sales dropping off, run a comparison of how bad sales are overall, then compare them to the dropoff in hybrid sales. Hybrids are actually increasing their market share even as sales drop because the rest of the market is so bad.

    As for talking about the GM hybrids and equating them to Toyota or Honda's.... Chrysler had to stop making the two-mode SUV hybrid because of bad sales. We'll have to see if GM ends up doing the same.

    If GM built a fuel efficient hybrid car, they'd probably see the sales figures Toyota is seeing.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As for hybrid sales dropping off, run a comparison of how bad sales are overall, then compare them to the dropoff in hybrid sales. Hybrids are actually increasing their market share even as sales drop because the rest of the market is so bad.

    Not according to the LA Times article I just posted. The hybrids are sitting 80 days on the lots. It is not good for the high priced battery to sit for long periods of time. They will deteriorate if not kept charged. I doubt Toyota is sending charging units to the overflow lots with thousands of cars to charge those batteries. It will not be a problem for the buyers other than premature failure of the battery and the hassle of waiting for a replacement.

    A complete discharge of a cell until it goes into polarity reversal can cause permanent damage to the cell

    NiMH cells historically had a somewhat higher self-discharge rate (equivalent to internal leakage)

    The rate is strongly affected by the temperature at which the batteries are stored with cooler storage temperatures leading to slower discharge rate and longer battery life. The highest capacity cells on the market (> 8000mAh) are reported to have the highest self-discharge rates.
    wiki
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    While the hybrids are being affected by the downturn like every other vehicle on the market they are being affected somewhat less. Not much but somewhat less. 80 days is not optimal but it's better than 90 or 120 or even 360 days like some other models.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, you will beat hybrids to a death bed.
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    Although the market for hybrids may be slightly better than for nonhybrids, there is no doubt that since last summer the hybrids are massively more affected by the recent downturn. If Hybrids went from 2 days to 80 days on the lots and nonhybrids went form 80-100 to 90-120, which was more affected?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes those numbers are true but last summer was an aberation. More typically Toyota and Honda stores have inventory levels that are at 30 days of sales in normal times. Our typical rate as an average of all vehicles, fast movers and slow movers, is about 25 days of sales on hand.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Cool, Nissan !!

    Nissan’s Infiniti brand has pledged to exclusively offer hybrid vehicles within the next ten years, and the first step in that plan could hit our shores next year. Reports out of Japan suggest Nissan will launch a new luxury-hybrid model next year.

    According to Japan’s Nikkei, Nissan will launch a hybrid version of its next-generation Infiniti M in the United States in 2010. A Nissan-badged version of the car – called the Fuga – will also launch in Japan next year.

    Although Nissan offers a hybrid version of its Altima sedan here in the States, Nissan actually borrows its hybrid technology from cross-country rival Toyota. However, the hybrid system set to launch next year will be completely developed by Nissan.

    The M’s hybrid system is expected to spread to other Infiniti models within the next few years, and could culminate in a production version of the Essence show car.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    From the President of Honda

    Fukui also said Honda has decided not to proceed with its plans to put clean diesel engines in its large cars. He cites the cost of clearing tough emissions regulations in the United States and Japan as the reason. The more cost-effective solution will be a modified or possibly new hybrid drive system which will instead become the future green drivetrain for big vehicles.

    Hybrids Yes, Diesels No
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
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  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    While I hope Toyota is making profit on the Prius after all these years, your source didn't exactly convince me. It's a website promoting electric cars. The consensus of auto analysts remains that Toyota has lost money for years on the Prius. Whether that is still true today, of course, no one outside of Toyota knows.

    Honda is a different story. Their hybrid system is much simpler and, presumably, less costly to manufacture.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    No, the source was a story in the Nikkei newspaper from Japan.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The math and accounting indicate otherwise... It's a very good discussion.

    Yes Honda's IMA is much less expensive ... but the vehicle also sells for $2000 to $6000 less. Two years ago Toyota announced publicly that it was making money on the hybrids. Then it lowered the price of the Prius by $600 to $1200.

    This leaked data is not surprising. The sheer weight of volume of units sold guarantees that it/they have been profitable.
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    Where is the actual story? This little snippet means absolutely nothing. Is it all hybrids sold? For a specific year? For hybrids sold In Japan only where prices are fixed? Is this corporate profit only not including dealer profit?

    Until I see the text, I don't believe it. If Toyota is getting 3500 dollar profit for a Prius Package 2 at 21500 as they are being sold today with incentives, I would be very surprised.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    IMO the figures are being leaked since the year end results are just coming out soon. From the article it appears that the figure is an aggragate number for all of the hybrids.

    It makes a lot of sense since most of the numbers have been known for some time now.

    The selling price to the customer has little to do with the revenue to the vehicle maker. Until recently there were no rebates at all on the Prius. There was a $600 to $2000 discount introduced on the sticker back in June of 07 which is when I believe that the vehicles 'went positive'. Those sticker discounts have recently been increased in order to blow out the last of the 09s and a $1000 rebate has been added.
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