Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

nvbanker · January 2007

Those are the type of meaningless figures and boasts that GM used to love to make, and once buyers found out that it made no difference in the real world, poof there went the loyalty.

What surprised me, merc - is how LONG it took us to get it - that Cadillac was done for, and almost everybody, including Lincoln was making a better car - took about a decade before we all left...

merc1 · January 2007

Well brand name power is a something else. It kept Cadillac going for years and years after they flunked the test of even making a decent luxury car. Most of the people I know that bought Cadillacs during the really awful years were either cluess about other brands or were just the "buy American" types.

M

nvbanker · January 2007

A lot of my friends, die hard Cadillac drivers for years, wouldn't listen after I bought my first Lincoln, and found out they could be better. They would say, "It's just not a Cadillac". True enough, that became a compliment to the competition...

merc1 · January 2007

They would say, "It's just not a Cadillac". True enough, that became a compliment to the competition

I have uncles that still won't buy anything but a Cadillac, but lucky for them Cadillac really does make something worth buying in 2007. It has to be a "hog".

M

62vetteefp · January 2007

GM just announced the G8. However it is a low volume vehicle. I have a feeling Pontiac will be dropping the Grand Prix low price point and rental fleet.

Ever since the GM Australia launched its new Holden VE Commodore (pictured), rumors began circulating that GM might export the rear-wheel-drive sedan to America as a Pontiac. Some reports suggested the car would be sold as the next Grand Prix, while others indicated it would be renamed G8.

Today, GM confirmed it will bring the Commodore to America as the Pontiac G8. "We are seriously planning to import a lot of Commodore SS sedans as Pontiac G8s," product development chief Bob Lutz told Australia's Drive today at the Detroit auto show, adding that the company could sell 50,000 G8s per year. "We are yet to officially announce it," he said.

The Commodore and G8 ride on GM's new Zeta rear-wheel-drive platform, which underpins the 2009 Camaro and the next-generation Impala, in addition to several other planned vehicles.

snakeweasel · January 2007

I used to be the die hard Lincoln guy. I have always felt that Lincoln was a class above Cadillac, and in those days it truely was. However IMHO in recent years Lincoln has dropped the ball and Cadillac has really made something of itself.

merc1 · January 2007

I don't know about a class above, but I do think that back in the day say like the 80s and 90's a Linc had a better ride than a Cadillac.

M

louiswei · January 2007

Is the presidential limousine always a Caddy?

lemko · January 2007

I've seen Lincolns used many times as Presidential limousines. The most famous, (or infamous) was JFK's 1961 Lincoln. Nixon had a 1969 Lincoln, and I think old man Bush had a 1989 Lincoln. Truman had a 1950 Lincoln Cosmopolitan that was later fitted with a special clear Plexiglas top. FDR had the "Sunshine Special" - a 1938 Lincoln Model K that was clumsily updated to look like a 1942 model.

louiswei · January 2007

Wow, so Lincoln had a rich history in the presidential fleet. Too bad I don't see that happening again anytime soon with the recent trend.

sls002 · January 2007

As I see it, any new vehicle is an experiment. No one can really say how something will sell until one puts it into production.

sls002 · January 2007

I think continuing to bicker over this is silly. Your original post misrepresented both the Allante and the SL horse power ratings so that you could make some point. Whether this was deliberate or accidental is something that only you know. Obviously you will claim that was an accident, I have no reason to know if that is true.

sls002 · January 2007

Or, as is the case here, there are no import luxury dealers. I would actually like a BMW wagon, but with the nearest dealer a 700 mile round trip away, owning a BMW seems to me not a good idea. We also do not have a Saturn dealer either, but at least Saturn's can be serviced by local GM dealers.

douglasr · January 2007

My father's 1985 Cadillac lasted precisely 42,433 miles before the cylinder head gaskets decided to retire from active duty in the middle of an Illinois snow storm. We won't mention the V-8-6-4 (3-2-0) or the Cimarron. Lincoln has to atone for cars like Versailles, and the unreliability of its fwd 'Continental' sedans, and the failures of its air suspension systems and AC-control switches. Both marques have committed acts of extremely bad build quality and styling excesses. At one point Lincoln had passed Cadillac as a result---despite some of those failures.

What is important to note is what both companies did since then to recover from those mistakes. GM and Cadillac have spent billions to rebuild its product line, enhance its quality and driving engineering and performance. That Cadillac has matched its foreign competition in many aspects shows how far they have come. Cadillac, under the aegis of Bob Lutz, has had a voice of support within the company, and thus able to guide GM's pocketbook to enhance the 'Standard of the World'. That voice remains. So now it is up from here. Lincoln, on-the-other-hand, has had no such champion within the ranks of Ford Motor. Quite the opposite---it's design staff having to fight an uphill almost 'Mt. Surabatchi-like' battle against the entrenched dis-connect from William C. Ford Jr. with respect to Lincoln. Mr. Horbury's latest offering, The 'MKR'---a dramatic sedan concept that should be built at all costs---can only hope to appeal to Mr. Mulally in hopes of seeing the light of day. The public gets to vote, but they are not the deciders in Lincoln's fate. Sadly for Lincoln, the MKR represents no less than the fifth show car within as many years that Ford says 'shows the design future at Lincoln'. None were built. Will the MKR pass the public litmus test enough for Mr. Mulally to approve? At Cadillac it was different---the executives took the reigns and directed the design staffs to act---they pushed Cadillac forward from within and turned the game upside down, thus redefining the and reestablishing the brand.

As Americans we can only be thankful. I wouldn't want my choice of Luxury Cars to be reduced to 'which foregin made domestically produced, or imported version is available?' Lincoln is in danger of going to way of Packard, but Cadillac is alive, well, and beginning to kick to competition.

DouglasR

...as for Presidential Limousines, GM's Alfred Sloan made disparaging remarks about Mr. Truman's chances in the 1948 election, causing Mr. Truman to kick GM cars out of the White House garage. Truman was still using the 1938-9 Lincoln K 'Sunshine Special used by Roosevelt, and had considered Cadillac as a replacement, but Mr. Sloan's caustic remarks killed that plan. Henry Ford II repsonded immediately and provided 50 special White House Lincolns for use by the Chief Executive and his staff. Ford Motor kept the contract, leasing cars to the government for $1 a year---but the company bore the expense of building them. Reagan preferred Cadillacs, thus GM got its chance. Mr. Bush used the last 1989 Lincoln Limousine (specially built using a 460 V8) during his tennure, and Ford declined to build another White House limousine after that, and Cadillac has carried the Presidential livery ever since.

sls002 · January 2007

Perhaps it should be understood that 50,000 is the upper end of what Holden could build, and NOT the sales expectation. This point is also true about the GTO sales, which I think had an upper limit of around 18,000 if I recall right (and I am not sure).

sls002 · January 2007

Here is a website of presidential limo's
http://my.net-link.net/~dcline/limopres.htm
Imperial was used by Eisenhower.

merc1 · January 2007

I think continuing to bicker over this is silly. Your original post misrepresented both the Allante and the SL horse power ratings so that you could make some point. Whether this was deliberate or accidental is something that only you know. Obviously you will claim that was an accident, I have no reason to know if that is true.

Yet the differences in that error don't mean a thing, nothing. That is what I don't get, you keep talking about that (which was a mistake BTW) like it made a difference in the overall scheme of things. It clearly didn't. The Allante sucked and even by your own admission it wasn't int he SL's class. So again, what is the point? What are we talking about here?

M

merc1 · January 2007

Where are you to be that far away from those dealers?

M

sls002 · January 2007

The wild west. Denver is 400 miles away, over roads that are often closed due to blowing snow this time of year. Minneapolis is 600 miles away, but interstate highways connect. Chicago is 1000 miles. At one time we had Mercedes, BMW and Audi dealers, but the market here is too small, and the costs of keeping the service departments up put them out of business. There was a dealer in DeLorean's too. Now, the DeLorean was a real flop.

There are more than 10 Cadillac dealerships less than 200 miles away.

louiswei · January 2007

So what kind of choice you got there besides GM? Also, how many GM dealerships are around you?

sls002 · January 2007

We have Ford and Chrysler. There is Toyota, Honda, Mazda, VW, Nissan. There are two GM dealers in town. After Oldsmobile was out, the Cadillac_Oldsmobile_GMC dealer took over the Buick_Pontiac dealer, but GM only let them keep GMC, and the Chevy dealer got Cadillac. There are a number of GM dealers in nearby towns. Within 200 miles there are more than 10 Cadillac dealers.

There are numerous used car dealers, who get cars off the auctions and resell. No warranty or service.

lemko · January 2007

Two Cadillac dealers are within ten miles of me as well as one Chevrolet dealer, two Toyota dealers, three Chrysler dealers, two Ford dealers, one Lincoln-Mercury dealer, one Suzuki dealer, one Mazda dealer, and countless used car dealers from high-end to buy-here-pay-here places.

oldtom · January 2007

Just dumped a 2005 Cadillac STS. The vehicle drove and handled well, but I had an incredible number of minor problems. Several of which were documented in service bulletins. I was extremely disappointed in that I thought I had purchased a world class car. GM seemed to have the concept right, but the execution was not there. Based on GM's track record, I say no way.

snakeweasel · January 2007

I have at least three, maybe four, Cadillac dealers within 10 miles of me. Within 15 miles of me you can buy any car available in the US new.

esuomm · January 2007

Sorry you had to get rid of the Caddy. But anyone that think GM makes class cars has another thing coming. All you have to do is look at a couple of those TSB and see that they (GM) allows real problems to go unresolved for years. Last one I saw was for a steering clunk that was found on 7 or 8 models of GM built cars (Caddy, Hummer, Buick, Sierra's, etc.) from 1999 and continued through 2006. Once they see it's a problem in 1999 and then in 2000 they should do something to prevent it from happening again in 2001, let alone 6 years later. GM, when will they learn. I had a few issues with my GMC (steering one of them) and eventualy had to sue them to take the car back since they couldn't permanently fix some of the issues and wouldn't let me trade it in for a bit better then wholesale value.

autoboy16 · January 2007

I feel lucky. Within 10 miles, I have 3 toyota, 2 honda, 1 cadillac, 2bmw, 1 suzuki, 3 hyundai, 1 cadillac, 2chevy, 2lincoln_mercury, 4ford, 1gmc_pontiac_buick, 1 saturn, a lexus, 1 kia, 2 jeep_chrysler, 1 dodge, 1 exotic (Audi, Jaguar, lotus, aston martin, lambo, porsche), a mercedes in the works thats scheduled to be completed before summer, 3 mazda, 3 nissan, 2infiniti, 1saab, and COUNTLESS used car dealers. Maybe more than I named. Volvo is 11 miles...

I~♥~MiaMi!!
~Cj :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I'll beg to differ on that. The Japanese do their homework and R&D with a good deal more thoroughness that the Big 2.5 When they come out with a new model, it works because the experimenting is over. Sure, maybe there's a rattle here or a glitchy seat belt retractor but they don't lay eggs like the Big 2.5 do with regularity. The 1990 Lexus ended up with poor durability on their leathers and a steering rack that wasn't a 200K miler; the 1990 Cadillac ended up with an engine that sucked oil like crazy. I can excuse the automaker that didn't test their back seats enough, or didn't run their luxury cars over railroad tracks or off-road, -- but an engine? c'mon! How can you introduce a new engine and NOT know it burns oil?

I don't get it, I just don't get it.

Did they think no one would notice?

So what does that do? It takes a basically GREAT engine and puts a black mark on it that we all remember even after the fixes are in.

nvbanker · January 2007

I have uncles that still won't buy anything but a Cadillac, but lucky for them Cadillac really does make something worth buying in 2007. It has to be a "hog".

Really, Merc. The STS-V without bluetooth - the STS without an engine...the Escalade without folding rear seats, the CTS without - pretty much everything, the DTS without a driveshaft, the SRX without a theme or the XLR, well, that one isn't bad, but without a Northstar? Which one is worth buying? None for my money.

merc1 · January 2007

Yep, really. Devilles, DTSs and STS. They'll have nothing else.

M

xrunner2 · January 2007

The STS-V without bluetooth - the STS without an engine...the SRX without a theme or the XLR, well, that one isn't bad, but without a Northstar?

GM has had joint ventures with Toyota and others. GM has used Honda V6s in some Saturns in past. GM ought to think about trying to get a manufacturing license from Honda or Nissan to build/put their "world-class" engines in Caddys such as CTS. These Caddys would then stand a better chance of being a "standard". Precendent already been set a number of times for GM to use Japanese engineeering, most recent example being Toyota's Pontiac Vibe.

A Honda or Nissan engine in a CTS having great styling, interior, suspension, brakes would be a positive for GM and Caddy. What with some GM US models already being engineered and built outside of US, not much of a stretch to outsource for world-class engine technology.

sls002 · January 2007

As far as I know, the 4.5 liter engine was new in 1988, so was it bad for 3 years running? Or are you talking about the RWD Fleetwood that had the 5 liter or 5.7 liter V8? Neither engine was new.

The northstar has had some oil consumption problems too. Mine uses about 4 quarts between oil changes.

As I see it, discontinuing the Allante after 7 years of production was not a big deal, although after upgrading to the northstar, I wonder why they did not keep it going a couple of more years? The basic point is that Cadillac was still in business, and parts and warranty service continues.

When GM discontinued Oldsmobile, Oldsmobile dealers were gone. However, Oldsmobile owners could go to other GM dealers for service. While my 2002 Cadillac Seville was not an Oldsmobile, my dealer was an Oldsmobile_Cadillac_GMC dealer, and they are gone. The Cadillac franchise moved to the Chevy dealer.

When De Lorean went out of business, the owner were left with uncertain service.

In the 1960's, the Mercedes 600 was basically a flop, as some of you have called the Allante.

mediapusher · January 2007

Merc1-

Did the Allante suck as you claim? I thought its only blunders were that it was ridiculously overpriced and the convertible top didn't fit at well as many would have liked.

--mediapusher

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

The Allante didn't suck.

What happened was that Cadillac built a car to compete with a Benz that was obsolete. So, by 1993 Cadillac had a perfect competitor for a 20 year old Benz design.

Once again, Cadillac showed up, but they missed the bus.

Now I'd say they are only 2-3 years behind, so the situation has vastly improved for Cadillac. They are a "player", although with a handicap of having a less than wonderful parent organization funding them. IMO Cadillac's biggest challenge is to remain as independent as possible of GM's corporate management up there on floor 14, especially the accounting department.

No easy task but so far, not bad, not bad at all.

sls002 · January 2007

I think a lot depends on what you expected from it. It was not a sports car.

However, the Mercedes SL that made the SL a legend is this one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/1955_Mercedes-Benz_300S- L_Gullwing_Coupe_34_right.jpg/400px-1955_Mercedes-Benz_300SL_Gullwing_Coupe_34_r- ight.jpg

By the early 80's the SL looks like this:
http://www.scootersofseattle.com/cars/1987_mercedes_560sl.jpg

mediapusher · January 2007

Esuomm-

The sad thing is G.M. really doesn't care, and it's cheaper for them to pay off whatever lawsuits are filed and continue to build the car wtih defects than fix the problem. To fix the problem means they would have to start from scratch again, and trust me that is much more expensive to them than any litigation trouble. Ford does it all the time. Look at all the complaints and lawsuits galore the electrical system nightmare Cadillac Catera and Ford Focus had when they were first introduced...

And then they wonder why Toyota is poised to beat them in car sales and volume soon. My Toyota Corolla (keep in mind this is a low end entry level car) didn't start developing problems until 170,000 miles. The problems I'm now having with the car are normal wear and tear "problems", bearings, tire wear, clutch. The rest involves change oil and go. Not bad for a $6500 investment, AND, I bought this car used. G.M. can't beat that. No way in hell they can be that. They don't have the mindset or business model to beat that.

--mediapusher
__________________________________________

Sorry you had to get rid of the Caddy. But anyone that think GM makes class cars has another thing coming. All you have to do is look at a couple of those TSB and see that they (GM) allows real problems to go unresolved for years. Last one I saw was for a steering clunk that was found on 7 or 8 models of GM built cars (Caddy, Hummer, Buick, Sierra's, etc.) from 1999 and continued through 2006.

lemko · January 2007

Mine uses about 4 quarts between oil changes.

What? Geeze, if mine loses 1 qt. it's doing bad. You might have that dreaded lower crankcase seal problem. The seal is only $44, but the labor cost will kill ya. They have to yank the engine to get at it.

louiswei · January 2007

At least it's back to being looking like this:

Saw a white one in the show room couple weeks ago, GORGEOUS...

sls002 · January 2007

My garage floor is dry and clean. I am quite sure that the oil is burned. The last oil change was an annual oil change after about 10,000 miles. A quart about every 2000 miles.

lemko · January 2007

Uh, maybe I got this wrong, but did you say you change your oil every 10K miles? Are you using synthetic? I change mine every 3K and use regular dino oil.

Here's a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Will it hurt your car if you've been using dino oil all along and suddenly switch to synthetic?

sls002 · January 2007

Yes, the current SL is more like what one would expect, and with the turbo V12 has decent performance, even if it can't pass a gas station. Automobile had an interesting story on it. It can get from a standstill to nearly 120 MPH in a quarter of a mile.

sls002 · January 2007

I do what the oil monitor says. However, since the Chevy dealer took over Cadillac, and they have Mobil 1 synthetic for the Corvettes, I have them put 5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic in it. I usually drive my car at least 10 miles when I start it up cold in the morning, as the nearest place I would go is ten miles away. So, the engine and oil are warmed up by the time I shut it off. This makes a big difference in what the oil monitor decides for the oil change interval.

bumpy · January 2007

Will it hurt your car if you've been using dino oil all along and suddenly switch to synthetic?

No, with a few caveats. Older cars with rope seals and loose tolerances will leak like a sieve on synthetic, and cars with a LOT of miles (150k, 250k, something in there)might have problems if the synthetic loosens the accumulated gunk from the dino oil.

laurasdada · January 2007

Actually, I believe that the XLR does have a Northstar engine. But, like the Allante, it is ridiculously overpriced. In base and -V guise. A recurring Cadillac theme...

fintail · January 2007

The 600 was a flop? An almost 20 year production run and an endless list of celebrity clientele might say otherwise. It is a monstrously overdone car, but not a flop.

fintail · January 2007

Just as how a SL550 and CTSV are almost identical in price, but the basic non-tuned MB is barely outperformed by the top of the line tuned Caddy, like by a couple tenths .

sls002 · January 2007

Well, 2677 in 20 years? Even the Allante did better than that. This car was supposed to blow Rolls Royce out of the market.

laurasdada · January 2007

Yes. The MB SL series, over a long period of time, has "earned" its price premium. It is the roadster for, "The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous." When Lexus came out with its "SL competitor" (never mind at what level it actually competes...), the SC430, they were not presumptious enough to price it anywhere near the SL. Caddy, with the XLR imho, flew a little too close to the sun with their $75k+ price tag, leading to disappointing sales and a 50% production cut within a year. And an interior that, again imho, does not reflect the price of admission.

Also, being based on the 'Vette (which these days ain't a bad thing!) and priced ~50% higher than a 'Vette convertible probably did not help.

But, I still want one. And/or a Jag XK. Porsche 911, AM V8... "...and the purse strings of a pauper."

fintail · January 2007

It was priced like a Rolls (a coachbuilt one), not meant to be mass market. Comparing a massive limo to a SL pretender is apples to oranges.

Do you have anything stating MB actually intended to steal the RR show? How many Phantoms did RR sell during the time period? The fact that it was grossly expensive, grossly complicated, and not a beauty queen, yet still sold for a long period to the highest order of clientele says all I need to know.

The 600 will be well-remembered in 50 more years...how about the Allante?

fintail · January 2007

That's a good analysis. And I don't hate the XLR or anything...it's an interesting enough car, and the market needs more of those. It just needs more polish.

sls002 · January 2007

38,000

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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