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Comments
If we want to talk about a MB "flop", maybe the Maybach is better. But not the 600.
Please define "almost Identical" a SL550 starts at over $97K while the CTS-V tops out at around $55K. I would hate to see your ideal of much more expensive.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sounds like my sisters Toyota or my neighbors Honda, so don't buy those makes either.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Just got his alphanumeric names confused.
XLR-V
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When I think "V" I think of the CTS anyway...the original, and best value of the bunch.
What about the current McLaren SLR? Mercedes contracted for a minimum of 4000 units.
The XLR is based on the Corvette Chassis and Northstar engine. It is somewhat overpriced, but at least it looks like the money. The Cadillac Allante didn't look like the money from the exterior. Also from what I have heardm the XLR is ill plagued with excessive body lean and roll, it's too heavy, and doesn't have a sporty feel.
The XLR is overpriced because G.M. would very much like to capture the ovepriced market that Mercedes and BMW seem to capture with such ease.
--mediapusher
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"Actually, I believe that the XLR does have a Northstar engine. But, like the Allante, it is ridiculously overpriced. In base and -V guise. A recurring Cadillac theme..."
Cadillacs are probably all your uncles need, if they are like the type of people I think they are (drive to the store and back, and the occasional Cadillac club stroll down the coast of California's highway 1 for a Cadillac convention and back) Especially if a person has to have a Cadillac "Hog". I can tell they are way "old school" types People don't call Cadillacs "hogs" anymore. This is what they were called in the '50's and early part of the '60's (due to their gluttonous nature and aura, Cadillac didn't have sports models in those days) The only slang term I hear Cadillacs being called is "Caddy"
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"Yep, really. Devilles, DTSs and STS. They'll have nothing else."
M
When the Beatles had it made, so to speak, they bought a Rolls.
They were not comparable in performance and handling however...the 600 would run rings around the Shadow. One was modern, one was totally obsolete.
But this proposition would offend many General Motors purists and the simpletons out there that think we have to "buy american". Whatever that
means. There are still those freaks out there running around in the U.S.A.
Buy American, Buy American. (Ahhh put a cork in it, would ya?!) You just wanna turn around and pimp slap these simpletons.
They don't know how thoroughly idiotic they sound.
If I only "bought American" my house would be empty, and I'd be forced to walk around naked, cause I sure as hell wouldn't have any clothes to wear. And judging from most of the comments on this board, 90 percent of my salary would go to mechanics and hmmm, Delphi parts. What a coincidence--- NOT .
If I'm supposed to "buy american" why does Cadillac use a transmission designed and built by the French for the Cadillac SRX? Why does Chevrolet sell cosmetically engineered Toyota Corollas as Geo/Chevrolet Prizms. And one of the most obvious examples of their cosmetic engineer whoring, was the now defunct Cadillac Allaante, designed and built in Italy by the famous Pinafarina group (Ferrari) , with Pinafarina proudly written on the sides of it. I think the only thing Cadillac had to do with that car was the engine. The Cadillac Allante had the smell of desperation all over it.
So people please keep your silly and hypocritical "buy american" mantra where it belongs, in the garbage disposal, cause apparently not even your "beloved" Cadillac or other G.M divisions want to "buy american"..... Sad state of affairs
---- mediapusher
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The STS-V without bluetooth - the STS without an engine...the SRX without a theme or the XLR, well, that one isn't bad, but without a Northstar?
GM has had joint ventures with Toyota and others. GM has used Honda V6s in some Saturns in past. GM ought to think about trying to get a manufacturing license from Honda or Nissan to build/put their "world-class" engines in Caddys such as CTS. These Caddys would then stand a better chance of being a "standard". Precendent already been set a number of times for GM to use Japanese engineeering, most recent example being Toyota's Pontiac Vibe.
A Honda or Nissan engine in a CTS having great styling, interior, suspension, brakes would be a positive for GM and Caddy. What with some GM US models already being engineered and built outside of US, not much of a stretch to outsource for world-class engine technology.
Well then can I say based on the steller experience I had with my 1992 Chevy Corsica esuomm is either lying or trying to make General Motors look bad.
What I am trying to point out is that just because one person has a bad experience with one car does not mean that the whole brand is bad.
Or you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t like to do the regularly scheduled maintenance on their car (your sister)
My sister keeps to stringent maintence schedules, think sludge (it was a major problem with toyotas). My neighbors Honda had the exhaust system dropped with less than 50 miles on it (he only put 3 or 4 miles on it driving it home from the dealer) that one blew the tranny at 5 or 6K miles. Can't blame that on poor maintenance.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm sure it helps American car companies keep their costs down, but this tactic also regularly backfires on them.
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As I see it, any new vehicle is an experiment. No one can really say how something will sell until one puts it into production.
-sls002
Can you say sludge?
Can you say transmission problem in all three models, es, camry, avalon from Toyota--now focusing on the Camry version. Check 2007 camry problems and repairs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nobody is going to cut Cadillac any more slack, I fear. You know how it is---the celeb gets away with everything and the wannabe gets blamed for every mistake.
On a more relevant note, Cadillac can still muster up in the syle department when it wants to, but substance, uhmmm, I'm still iffy on that subject when it comes to Cadillac. And G.M. seems to disconnected and erratic with the way they do
business.
And how many flops and sludge, as you put it has General Motors produced and dumped on the public, compared to Toyota and Honda. I can count Toyota's and Honda's flops on one hand.
There aren't enough fingers and toes collectively of the people on this planet to count the flops, mishaps, defects, engineering embarrassments of General Motors, etc. I could name them all, but I'm afraid I'd get carpal tunnel syndrome by the time I was done.
And sorry to burst your bubble but my Toyota Corolla (2002-03) has been one great car.
-----mediapusher
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Can you say transmission problem in all three models, es, camry, avalon from Toyota--now focusing on the Camry version. Check 2007 camry problems and repairs.
The Cadillac Allante was never meant to be a mass market car. But pathetic as it is, it couldn't even make it as a niche market car like GM had hoped
---mediapusher
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They're trying. I don't like what they're trying, but I will give them credit for making the effort this time.
So, how much does GM's Great Wreathed Hope weigh?
I believe John Lennon had a 600.
A runaway success compared to the Allante, which will go down in history as yet another half-baked GM 80s effort that was killed off right when it became decent.
I'm sure GM would. However, "the market" has voted with their wallets and MB and BMW are not considered overpriced. If you want one, that's what they cost. BMW/MB has earned the right and created a supply/demand scenario (or so I have to believe) to sustain such prices. Caddy has not, they really should learn from the (sales) success of Lexus regarding initial pricing (and quality! And upscale interiors!) and growing demand/marketshare.
Generally, imho, it's not just that GM, starting in the '70s began producing bad cars, but that they kept producing them (how long did the Cavalier live!) and doing just a terrible job of badge engineering. Yes, using the public as test mules is an incredibly short-sighted strategy.
I believe I remember a story from many years ago (probably read in C & D, I've been reading/subscribing for decades). The domestics, at some point in the production process, doused cars with water to ensure that they did not leak. A Big 3 executive visiting a plant in Japan noted that the Japaneese did not have this "quality control" test. When he asked the Japaneese executive why they didn't test their cars for water tightness, the reply was simply that, "Our cars don't leak."
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
And Ford labels that, "Old World Craftsmanship!" :P
If Ford, instead of spending millions of $ advertising, "Quality is Job 1" and instead spent millions of $ making Quality Job 1, who knows what might have happened? Quality, maybe?
Actually, I'm not even sure of Ford's quality ratings. Maybe they are the highest rated of the "domestics?" I actually think they do have some good products: Fusion and iterations, 500/Montego really seems to be a good family appliance, if only they gave it just a bit of style, always thought that the Freestyle seemed like a (underpowered)reasonably sensible soccer-mom mobile, Mustang 's a winner... But, does Fixed Or Repaired Daily & Found On Road Dead still rule the day?
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
And so it accomplished what it set out to do---to make a Rolls or Cadillac look like a Model T Ford mechanically, that's true. I think Sterling Moss took one of the Pullmans and actually broke some track records in England with it....
But reliable?....ah, no. In that respect, Cadillacs of the time were far more reliable than Benz 600s or any Rolls. Let's give credit where it is due. But technically, the 600 was in another century....fuel injection, OHC V-8, active suspension, 4 wheel disk brakes, hydraulic windows and seats, superb high speed handling.
These were things Rolls and Cadillac wouldn't do for another 25 years.
And I'm sure the 600 lost buckets of money as well.
I like the short wheel base models (in that dark blue color). They were made to be self-driven.
To help put in perspective the handling and power capabilities of this massive car, in 1965 a Pullman 600 with six adults on board and Stirling Moss behind the wheel came within five seconds of besting the saloon-car lap record at the Brands Hatch racing circuit. In 1965, Car and Driver magazine stated, "The Mercedes 600 has proved to our complete satisfaction that it is the finest automobile in the world!"
Merc 600
The end of that article has some interesting comments on the price of repairs on a 600.
Ouch it is painful, very, very painful. Those are worse then Ferrari repair bills.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You're a person of my own heart when it comes to car logic. The soon to be released 2008 Cadillac CTS' interior does look promising, however it remains to be seen. After all, Cadillac is famous for mastering the "style but no substance" recipe.
Remember the Cadillac Allante? This was a car that in the public's eye oozed desperation, even though the automotive press gave it gleaming reviews. It was beyond brazen for Cadillac to ask that much for a car that had no proven track record and was riding on the heels of a car company which had a reputation of repeatedly shooting itself in the foot during those days. It also was very much an Italian car, not a U.S.A. car. So much for the "Buy American mantra, huh? The only American thing about it was the engine. And they were stupid enough not to even give it a Northstar engine. Unbelievable. The Allante also had one of the shortest lifespans of any car. All this, coming from "The Standard of the World." Puhleeez. Who do they think they're kidding?
The water leak information you stated in your previous blog doesn't surprise me one bit. It's the very reason their cars have had so many defects and problems. They don't fix build quality problems as they go along, they try and do it after the fact. Pressure from upper management forces workers to rush the assembly line and turn a blind eye at these defects, 'cause that's what they're instructed to do.
I was born after the baby boom generation, so I don't quite understand how GM got this way, but I believe it much of it had to do with them having very little, if any competition for a very long time (Early 1900's to 1975)
How they expect people to forget 35 years or more of pitiful automotive products and suddenly start buying their cars is really laughable and ridiculous. It will take at least twice that long for consumers to get over it, if they ever do.
I'm a boomer, my parents always had a mix of domestic (that I remember: Buick, Ford, Caddy...) and imports (Borgward!, Mercedes, Saab, Datsun (now Nissan) and even Renault!) But, by the early 1970s, after a few domestic clunkers and a particularly horrible Ford Country Squire Wagon, nothing but imports until the mid '90s. My Dad took a chance and leased a Caddy Catera, it seemed Europen enough. He fondly recalls that it was a great car to drive, those few days that it was not in the shop! One of the least reliable and poorly screwed together car he's ever owned. Now he's loving his Acura TL.
I did have a perfectly wonderful experience with my '99 Chrylser 300M. A few repairs under warranty, known first model year issues. But out of warranty, no issues. But after 5.5 years and 67K+ mile, repairs were-a-comin'. The 300M did restore my faith a bit in the domestics, though. It really was a great car! TL is much better put together, though...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I honestly think the public could completely forget about the things gm has put us through if gm would turn around and give us something solid--the complete lineup. They need to acknowledge they messed up and then counter with a portfolio of vehicles that is not only competive, but class-leading. And they must do all of this with value.
Someone said earlier that they should pay attention to the Lexus model. I think that's exactly what they should do. No more of this "well the cts is good so is the sts, but we still have the dts" COME ON!!! If cadillac is a standard of anything, they need a proper flagship.
And its not going to be easy. GM seems to have the mentality that one car will turn around its fortunes. But i think it will take a consistant renewed perception across the entire lineup; from Caddy to Chevy.
From the time they produce a worthwhile lineup, to the time they are 'forgiven' (for lack of a better word), i say will be about 18 years, the same amount of time it took Lexus.
Maybe my optimism is caused by my youth because I dont remember any truely horrendus gm products like those of the 70s and 80s.
Yeah it sucked. It was underpowered, was 60K and had a manual top that was a pain to operate, fwd, and had the structural integrity of a noodle. For that kinda of money the car sucked. The reasons you give made it loser in that segment.
M
Nonsense.
M
M
M
It has been this way with Rolls and Mercedes for years, until BMW bought Rolls and actually turned it into a great car again. I still laugh when I see 80's and 90's Rolls Royces being touted as "superior". An early 90's LS400 was a better "car".
M
Yeah I don't get this nonsense about the 600 being a flop. The car was a masterpiece compared to an Allante or nearly any other car of its day. This judging a car's success solely on sales is about as tired a GM practice as they come.
M