Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

13031333536121

Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    38000 Phantoms made between 1963-81? Where is this coming from?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I don't think that the Mercedes 600 was comparable to the Phantom, certainly not the Phantom IV. Perhaps some of the 600 Limo's that were custom built may have.
  • esuommesuomm Member Posts: 19
    Mediapusher, does sound like a good investment. Though not the board for it, but we are all over the place, American made trucks have had less competition from the foreign car makers since the likes of Toy, Hon, Nissan haven't made a real full size truck. Ford, GM and Chevy will be taking even more of a beating when Toyota introduces their 8' bed pickup in Feb. They are in trouble. Same reason I am not buying a GM product again is the same many will buy the Toyo truck instead of GM once it comes out. Friend of mine just leased a CTS or DTS (whatever) and it sprung an oil leak in the driveway and couldn't be driven. Had to be towed back to the dealer. He had the car 3 months or so and it has been back twice, including this oil leak.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Phantom IV also predates the 600 by many years. I will say that any 600 was much greater than a plain old Silver Shadow. A 600 LWB was comparable with a Phantom V or VI...and production was similar.

    If we want to talk about a MB "flop", maybe the Maybach is better. But not the 600.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Just as how a SL550 and CTSV are almost identical in price,

    Please define "almost Identical" a SL550 starts at over $97K while the CTS-V tops out at around $55K. I would hate to see your ideal of much more expensive.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Friend of mine just leased a CTS or DTS (whatever) and it sprung an oil leak in the driveway and couldn't be driven. Had to be towed back to the dealer. He had the car 3 months or so and it has been back twice, including this oil leak.

    Sounds like my sisters Toyota or my neighbors Honda, so don't buy those makes either.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    He meant XLR-V...

    Just got his alphanumeric names confused.

    XLR-V
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Ah ok, honestly it is over priced.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Yeah my bad.

    When I think "V" I think of the CTS anyway...the original, and best value of the bunch.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The 600's were for their day, similar to the current Maybach I think. I will agree that the 600 was better engineered than the Rolls. But, the Rolls is recognizable by people who know nothing about cars, while the 600, if these people would recognize it as a Mercedes, would only see it as a Mercedes sedan. This is why the Maybach is not doing better than it is. Of course, the BMW Rolls is a much better engineered Rolls than any Rolls has probably ever been, at least in the last 50 years.

    What about the current McLaren SLR? Mercedes contracted for a minimum of 4000 units.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    laurasada-

    The XLR is based on the Corvette Chassis and Northstar engine. It is somewhat overpriced, but at least it looks like the money. The Cadillac Allante didn't look like the money from the exterior. Also from what I have heardm the XLR is ill plagued with excessive body lean and roll, it's too heavy, and doesn't have a sporty feel.

    The XLR is overpriced because G.M. would very much like to capture the ovepriced market that Mercedes and BMW seem to capture with such ease.

    --mediapusher
    ___________________________________

    "Actually, I believe that the XLR does have a Northstar engine. But, like the Allante, it is ridiculously overpriced. In base and -V guise. A recurring Cadillac theme..."
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The Allante, like the Eldorado Brougham, was shipped to Italy to get some European flavor to justify a much higher price. It would have made far to much sense to build the Allante in the Reatta factory and price it at $40,000.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Yes, but how old are your uncles. A person would have to be beyond stupid if they don't think the generation you were born in has something to do with how you purchase your car.

    Cadillacs are probably all your uncles need, if they are like the type of people I think they are (drive to the store and back, and the occasional Cadillac club stroll down the coast of California's highway 1 for a Cadillac convention and back) Especially if a person has to have a Cadillac "Hog". I can tell they are way "old school" types :blush: People don't call Cadillacs "hogs" anymore. This is what they were called in the '50's and early part of the '60's (due to their gluttonous nature and aura, Cadillac didn't have sports models in those days) The only slang term I hear Cadillacs being called is "Caddy"
    _____________________________________

    "Yep, really. Devilles, DTSs and STS. They'll have nothing else."

    M
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Cadillac's fuel consumption got much worse after the HydraMatic was replaced with the TurboHydraMatic and the 429 cubic inch V8 in 1964. From there the engines simply got bigger and fuel consumption was worst, probably for the 1973-74 models, with exhaust gas recirulation, but before catalysts. Fuel consumption improved with the 1977 downsizing. The 1982 move to the 4100 greatly improved Cadillac's CAFE (from 18 to 22).
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My brother has a Honda that has needed a major engine overhaul. A known problem with that Honda engine, and his car was beyond the warranty period.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Both the Rolls Royce and Mercedes 600 started at around $20,000. I think that my perception that the basic 600 sedan was comparable to the Silver Shadow is reasonable.

    When the Beatles had it made, so to speak, they bought a Rolls.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well in a peverse way they WERE both comparable---the 600 and the Shadow were equally troublesome, ridiculously complex cars....and today, either of them is a real hard sell.

    They were not comparable in performance and handling however...the 600 would run rings around the Shadow. One was modern, one was totally obsolete.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    XrRunner2-

    But this proposition would offend many General Motors purists and the simpletons out there that think we have to "buy american". Whatever that
    means. There are still those freaks out there running around in the U.S.A.
    Buy American, Buy American. (Ahhh put a cork in it, would ya?!) You just wanna turn around and pimp slap these simpletons.
    They don't know how thoroughly idiotic they sound.

    If I only "bought American" my house would be empty, and I'd be forced to walk around naked, cause I sure as hell wouldn't have any clothes to wear. And judging from most of the comments on this board, 90 percent of my salary would go to mechanics and hmmm, Delphi parts. What a coincidence--- NOT .

    If I'm supposed to "buy american" why does Cadillac use a transmission designed and built by the French for the Cadillac SRX? Why does Chevrolet sell cosmetically engineered Toyota Corollas as Geo/Chevrolet Prizms. And one of the most obvious examples of their cosmetic engineer whoring, was the now defunct Cadillac Allaante, designed and built in Italy by the famous Pinafarina group (Ferrari) , with Pinafarina proudly written on the sides of it. I think the only thing Cadillac had to do with that car was the engine. The Cadillac Allante had the smell of desperation all over it.

    So people please keep your silly and hypocritical "buy american" mantra where it belongs, in the garbage disposal, cause apparently not even your "beloved" Cadillac or other G.M divisions want to "buy american"..... Sad state of affairs :\

    ---- mediapusher
    ______________________________________________________

    The STS-V without bluetooth - the STS without an engine...the SRX without a theme or the XLR, well, that one isn't bad, but without a Northstar?

    GM has had joint ventures with Toyota and others. GM has used Honda V6s in some Saturns in past. GM ought to think about trying to get a manufacturing license from Honda or Nissan to build/put their "world-class" engines in Caddys such as CTS. These Caddys would then stand a better chance of being a "standard". Precendent already been set a number of times for GM to use Japanese engineeering, most recent example being Toyota's Pontiac Vibe.

    A Honda or Nissan engine in a CTS having great styling, interior, suspension, brakes would be a positive for GM and Caddy. What with some GM US models already being engineered and built outside of US, not much of a stretch to outsource for world-class engine technology.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Based on the stellar experience I’ve had with my 2003 Toyota, you are either lying to try and lessen the terrible things people have known and are saying about General Motors on this board,

    Well then can I say based on the steller experience I had with my 1992 Chevy Corsica esuomm is either lying or trying to make General Motors look bad.

    What I am trying to point out is that just because one person has a bad experience with one car does not mean that the whole brand is bad.

    Or you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t like to do the regularly scheduled maintenance on their car (your sister)

    My sister keeps to stringent maintence schedules, think sludge (it was a major problem with toyotas). My neighbors Honda had the exhaust system dropped with less than 50 miles on it (he only put 3 or 4 miles on it driving it home from the dealer) that one blew the tranny at 5 or 6K miles. Can't blame that on poor maintenance.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    As you see it? Then you must have cataracts. How do you explain the instant phenomenal success that Toyota has had with their Scion line? It's because Toyota does their homework and doesn't dump their products on the public to test them.

    I'm sure it helps American car companies keep their costs down, but this tactic also regularly backfires on them.
    ______________________________________

    As I see it, any new vehicle is an experiment. No one can really say how something will sell until one puts it into production.

    -sls002
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >It's because Toyota does their homework and doesn't dump their products on the public to test them.

    Can you say sludge?

    Can you say transmission problem in all three models, es, camry, avalon from Toyota--now focusing on the Camry version. Check 2007 camry problems and repairs.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it doesn't seem to have hurt them one bit...so either they were proactive enough (they did extend warranty on some engines) or their reputation can take a hit now and then. So the way I see it, having done their "homework" all these years has allowed them to dodge a few bullets.

    Nobody is going to cut Cadillac any more slack, I fear. You know how it is---the celeb gets away with everything and the wannabe gets blamed for every mistake.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    I don't care what anyone says. Nothing beats the original dreamgirls (Diana Ross and the Supremes) I don't like watching imitations, especially when it comes to them. I'll watch the film when it comes out on DVD, but not now.

    On a more relevant note, Cadillac can still muster up in the syle department when it wants to, but substance, uhmmm, I'm still iffy on that subject when it comes to Cadillac. And G.M. seems to disconnected and erratic with the way they do
    business.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Imidazol97-

    And how many flops and sludge, as you put it has General Motors produced and dumped on the public, compared to Toyota and Honda. I can count Toyota's and Honda's flops on one hand.

    There aren't enough fingers and toes collectively of the people on this planet to count the flops, mishaps, defects, engineering embarrassments of General Motors, etc. I could name them all, but I'm afraid I'd get carpal tunnel syndrome by the time I was done. :\

    And sorry to burst your bubble but my Toyota Corolla (2002-03) has been one great car.

    -----mediapusher
    ________________________
    Can you say transmission problem in all three models, es, camry, avalon from Toyota--now focusing on the Camry version. Check 2007 camry problems and repairs.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Merc1-

    The Cadillac Allante was never meant to be a mass market car. But pathetic as it is, it couldn't even make it as a niche market car like GM had hoped

    ---mediapusher
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Allante was two mistakes away from a hit---weak engine (they should have had the Northstar in there from the get-go) and persistent water leaks. But the press liked the looks of it.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    In reference to the pictures, the BLS gets a navigation system but the CTS doesn't? At the price point of a Cadillac CTS that should be standard! :mad: Uugggh, here we go again...
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Apparently it weighs a lot. There is too much pride in the Cadillac heritage and name for them to forget about it.
    ____________________

    They're trying. I don't like what they're trying, but I will give them credit for making the effort this time.

    So, how much does GM's Great Wreathed Hope weigh?
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    This 2008 Cadillac CTS is going to weigh almost 4000lbs? Jesus! :sick: Hmmm, let's see, it's the size of a I G35, and has the weight of an ocean liner... I don't get it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Where do these prices come from? Just curious. Also how about Phantom pricing? As that was the intended segment.

    I believe John Lennon had a 600.

    A runaway success compared to the Allante, which will go down in history as yet another half-baked GM 80s effort that was killed off right when it became decent.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Yeah the SLR is no winner...its looks don't help. But it is well known anyway. It will be remembered for its shnozz and outrageousness.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    "The XLR is overpriced because G.M. would very much like to capture the ovepriced market that Mercedes and BMW seem to capture with such ease."

    I'm sure GM would. However, "the market" has voted with their wallets and MB and BMW are not considered overpriced. If you want one, that's what they cost. BMW/MB has earned the right and created a supply/demand scenario (or so I have to believe) to sustain such prices. Caddy has not, they really should learn from the (sales) success of Lexus regarding initial pricing (and quality! And upscale interiors!) and growing demand/marketshare.

    Generally, imho, it's not just that GM, starting in the '70s began producing bad cars, but that they kept producing them (how long did the Cavalier live!) and doing just a terrible job of badge engineering. Yes, using the public as test mules is an incredibly short-sighted strategy.

    I believe I remember a story from many years ago (probably read in C & D, I've been reading/subscribing for decades). The domestics, at some point in the production process, doused cars with water to ensure that they did not leak. A Big 3 executive visiting a plant in Japan noted that the Japaneese did not have this "quality control" test. When he asked the Japaneese executive why they didn't test their cars for water tightness, the reply was simply that, "Our cars don't leak."

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Went to visit Ford's assembly plant at Atlanta earlier last year. The cars produced there were the last batch of those fleet-bounded Taurus. What amazed me is that at the end of the production line, guess what Ford does if the trunk panel doesn't align with the rear fender? They use a hammer and make it does. :surprise: The first thing jumped into my mind when I see that was: I wonder what does Toyota or Honda do with problems like this...
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    ...They use a hammer and make it does."

    And Ford labels that, "Old World Craftsmanship!" :P

    If Ford, instead of spending millions of $ advertising, "Quality is Job 1" and instead spent millions of $ making Quality Job 1, who knows what might have happened? Quality, maybe?

    Actually, I'm not even sure of Ford's quality ratings. Maybe they are the highest rated of the "domestics?" I actually think they do have some good products: Fusion and iterations, 500/Montego really seems to be a good family appliance, if only they gave it just a bit of style, always thought that the Freestyle seemed like a (underpowered)reasonably sensible soccer-mom mobile, Mustang 's a winner... But, does Fixed Or Repaired Daily & Found On Road Dead still rule the day?

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The 600 was a "lost leader"--strictly a wildly complex, recklessly teutonic demonstration of Mercedes technical prowess---call it bragging rights or "in your face" marketing. And it created quite the sensation. Surely it was a foretelling of Mercedes technical dominance to come in the luxury car field.

    And so it accomplished what it set out to do---to make a Rolls or Cadillac look like a Model T Ford mechanically, that's true. I think Sterling Moss took one of the Pullmans and actually broke some track records in England with it....

    But reliable?....ah, no. In that respect, Cadillacs of the time were far more reliable than Benz 600s or any Rolls. Let's give credit where it is due. But technically, the 600 was in another century....fuel injection, OHC V-8, active suspension, 4 wheel disk brakes, hydraulic windows and seats, superb high speed handling.

    These were things Rolls and Cadillac wouldn't do for another 25 years.

    And I'm sure the 600 lost buckets of money as well.

    I like the short wheel base models (in that dark blue color). They were made to be self-driven.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I heard a similar thing about Sterling Moss and...

    To help put in perspective the handling and power capabilities of this massive car, in 1965 a Pullman 600 with six adults on board and Stirling Moss behind the wheel came within five seconds of besting the saloon-car lap record at the Brands Hatch racing circuit. In 1965, Car and Driver magazine stated, "The Mercedes 600 has proved to our complete satisfaction that it is the finest automobile in the world!"

    Merc 600

    The end of that article has some interesting comments on the price of repairs on a 600.

    Ouch it is painful, very, very painful. Those are worse then Ferrari repair bills.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    He is right putting anything untested and unproven is an experiment. Toyota just got lucky with Scion, but they were still testing it.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Laurasada-

    You're a person of my own heart when it comes to car logic. The soon to be released 2008 Cadillac CTS' interior does look promising, however it remains to be seen. After all, Cadillac is famous for mastering the "style but no substance" recipe.

    Remember the Cadillac Allante? This was a car that in the public's eye oozed desperation, even though the automotive press gave it gleaming reviews. It was beyond brazen for Cadillac to ask that much for a car that had no proven track record and was riding on the heels of a car company which had a reputation of repeatedly shooting itself in the foot during those days. It also was very much an Italian car, not a U.S.A. car. So much for the "Buy American mantra, huh? ;) The only American thing about it was the engine. And they were stupid enough not to even give it a Northstar engine. Unbelievable. The Allante also had one of the shortest lifespans of any car. All this, coming from "The Standard of the World." Puhleeez. Who do they think they're kidding?

    The water leak information you stated in your previous blog doesn't surprise me one bit. It's the very reason their cars have had so many defects and problems. They don't fix build quality problems as they go along, they try and do it after the fact. Pressure from upper management forces workers to rush the assembly line and turn a blind eye at these defects, 'cause that's what they're instructed to do.

    I was born after the baby boom generation, so I don't quite understand how GM got this way, but I believe it much of it had to do with them having very little, if any competition for a very long time (Early 1900's to 1975)

    How they expect people to forget 35 years or more of pitiful automotive products and suddenly start buying their cars is really laughable and ridiculous. It will take at least twice that long for consumers to get over it, if they ever do.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    I believe that part of the problems arose from the fact that many European and Asian car companies were led by engineers (read: Car Guys). US companies, accountants (read: Roger Smith) and marketing "wizards."

    I'm a boomer, my parents always had a mix of domestic (that I remember: Buick, Ford, Caddy...) and imports (Borgward!, Mercedes, Saab, Datsun (now Nissan) and even Renault!) But, by the early 1970s, after a few domestic clunkers and a particularly horrible Ford Country Squire Wagon, nothing but imports until the mid '90s. My Dad took a chance and leased a Caddy Catera, it seemed Europen enough. He fondly recalls that it was a great car to drive, those few days that it was not in the shop! One of the least reliable and poorly screwed together car he's ever owned. Now he's loving his Acura TL.

    I did have a perfectly wonderful experience with my '99 Chrylser 300M. A few repairs under warranty, known first model year issues. But out of warranty, no issues. But after 5.5 years and 67K+ mile, repairs were-a-comin'. The 300M did restore my faith a bit in the domestics, though. It really was a great car! TL is much better put together, though...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    How they expect people to forget 35 years or more of pitiful automotive products and suddenly start buying their cars is really laughable and ridiculous. It will take at least twice that long for consumers to get over it, if they ever do.

    I honestly think the public could completely forget about the things gm has put us through if gm would turn around and give us something solid--the complete lineup. They need to acknowledge they messed up and then counter with a portfolio of vehicles that is not only competive, but class-leading. And they must do all of this with value.

    Someone said earlier that they should pay attention to the Lexus model. I think that's exactly what they should do. No more of this "well the cts is good so is the sts, but we still have the dts" COME ON!!! If cadillac is a standard of anything, they need a proper flagship.

    And its not going to be easy. GM seems to have the mentality that one car will turn around its fortunes. But i think it will take a consistant renewed perception across the entire lineup; from Caddy to Chevy.

    From the time they produce a worthwhile lineup, to the time they are 'forgiven' (for lack of a better word), i say will be about 18 years, the same amount of time it took Lexus.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    ...also: I say the entire lineup from Caddy to Chevy because when consumers buy toyotas and hondas over chevys, they are more likely to buy acuras and lexuses over caddys

    Maybe my optimism is caused by my youth because I dont remember any truely horrendus gm products like those of the 70s and 80s.
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    People just can't give GM any credit because their entire mindset has been GM=evil so rolling over and dying and letting ToyoHondasan dominate=good. GM need to continuously improve just so they can hit the naysayers where the sun don't shine. :P
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    True, that's why I think the Lexus strategy is so great, it even works for hyundai (although that's not what Cadillac is going for). People want value. They want to know that buying a gm will not be a waste of money, so show them it wont be. You cant give them a competitive vehicle and charge the same amount because the other automaker's reputation gives their car more value. If gm wants their fortunes to change, they must have competitive vehicles at LOWER prices.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Did the Allante suck as you claim? I thought its only blunders were that it was ridiculously overpriced and the convertible top didn't fit at well as many would have liked.

    Yeah it sucked. It was underpowered, was 60K and had a manual top that was a pain to operate, fwd, and had the structural integrity of a noodle. For that kinda of money the car sucked. The reasons you give made it loser in that segment.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    In the 1960's, the Mercedes 600 was basically a flop, as some of you have called the Allante.

    Nonsense.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Boy this SL vs. Allante thing really rubbed you wrong I see. You're still reaching for something, anything to say bad about the SL and promp up the Allante. Time to give that one up.

    M
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Then Rocky what is Consumer Reports? Enlighten us. Show us proof. We all have email addresses.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh I don't doubt that it is everything they need and want, its bascially all they know and want to know about. They are the "old school" types for sure. I don't blame them for having preferences, just don't like that they won't even look at or learn about any other brand of car.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    They were not comparable in performance and handling however...the 600 would run rings around the Shadow. One was modern, one was totally obsolete.

    It has been this way with Rolls and Mercedes for years, until BMW bought Rolls and actually turned it into a great car again. I still laugh when I see 80's and 90's Rolls Royces being touted as "superior". An early 90's LS400 was a better "car".

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    A runaway success compared to the Allante, which will go down in history as yet another half-baked GM 80s effort that was killed off right when it became decent.

    Yeah I don't get this nonsense about the 600 being a flop. The car was a masterpiece compared to an Allante or nearly any other car of its day. This judging a car's success solely on sales is about as tired a GM practice as they come.

    M
Sign In or Register to comment.