Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Well there's a mixed message from automotive news. They didn't mention (or perhaps they did, I haven't read the original source) this interesting fact:

Mercedes easily outsells Cadillac in Japan despite costing twice as much. (Fleetwood - 5.5 million yen, Benz S Class 12 million yen).

What plausible reason? Prestige, of course, can be the only answer.

source: http://www.intelbridges.com/japaneseconsumeruk.html

mediapusher · January 2007

DouglasR-

What does "Standard of the World" mean? The Cadillac CTS already is the "standard of the world" in U.S.A., but so is the Lexus LS430, E350, E250, BMW 325, 530, etc. This title cannot be a singular claim by any make of car. It belongs to many as it always have.

---mediapusher

douglasr · January 2007

The actual numbers are for the Japanese market are:

Mercedes-Benz (all models) 46,161
Cadillac 1,171
Jaguar 3,461
Audi 15,420
Astons 110
Ferrari 391
Maybach 26
BMW AG 58,755
Bentley 355
Lincoln 0
----------------------
Total Imports: 261,534

Mercedes and BMW sell across all ranges of product, which Cadillac does not match (there are no "3 series" type Cadillacs!) Given the 33% tarriff on imports plus an additional 20% VAT and licensing/registration fees, an imported car in Japan is a very expensive propasition. (Not to mention every car has to be inspected by the government, and you must prove you have a parking space for it!)

Mercedes & BMW are far more entrenched in terms of service and retail outlets, thus can sell more cars. 75% of Japanese sales above $45,000 are imported cars! A recent article in the WSJ reported that Toyota/Lexus was very disappointed with the performance of Lexus in Japan---where they thought there would be no problem selling the car---but it ends up competing against foreign cars. At that price, Japanese (like American consumers) want cache and exclusivity, so they turn to products they can't get in Japan. Even Rolls-Royce sold more than 50 cars in Japan last year. There is also the issue of RHD, which Mercedes, BMW, Astons/Jaguar, Bentley & Rolls-Royce all provide, and is necessary in Japan as they drive on the left. Cadillac has only recently started built some of its models with RHD (as Chrysler is also doing in Europe.) So that is one more reason why Cadillac sales in Japan can be considered successful: the Japanese have the inconvenience of driving a LHD car in a RHD world.

Thus Cadillac is inching along. (Better than the 10 Buicks or 14 Mustangs sold there...!) Toyota, after-all, sold its first TWO cars in L.A. in 1957! And they thought that was a "success" (when 'Made-in-Japan' meant it was cheezy cr-p) The revamped CTS made for the Chinese market has been accepted resoundingly and the KD plant where they are assembled can't build them fast enough, and demand is sharp for imported Cadillacs despite the staffering price on the Chinese Mainland (tariffs and taxes effectively doubling the price.)

"Standard of the World" best refers to the famous 'Penalty of Leadership" ad written by McManus for Cadillac in January 1915 and used by Cadillac Motors as a talisman for the brand. Having won the Dewar Trophy twice in its ascendant stage (for interchangeability of parts built to 1/10,000" tolerances, and the Kettering self starter) Cadillac was persuing Packard, and left no stone unturned in persuit of engineering and quality. Not just an ad slogan, Cadillac began to set the tone in the industry, especially when it introduced V12 and V16 engines in December 1929. Spurring both Packard and Rolls-Royce to build their own along with Lincoln among others. Cadillac became noted for many "firsts" in the industry (which Packard was also proud of and competing with Cadillac to maintain) such as Automatic Transmissions (in luxury markets, though also available on Oldsmobile in 1939) among other features.

Just as "excellence was expected" at Porsche, and "engineering supremacy" is demanded at Mercedes, "Standard of the World" meant the latest in engineering/performance and/or convenience features blended with excellent build quality. What is means, at the end of the day, is that the brand becomes a benchmark against which all others are automatically compared. That was the point of "Penalty of Leadership" by McManus.

It is what Cadillac must regain again. At least they are trying.

DouglasR

(Sources: Automotive News Market Data Book 2006)

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Here's an interesting view of what constitutes "best in the world".

This isn't about cars, it's about Swiss watches!

Let me know what you think:

(quoted text)

"Swiss made" embodies a concept of quality that has been forged over the years. It includes the technical quality of watches (accuracy, reliability, water-resistance and shock-resistance), as well as their aesthetic quality (elegance and originality of design). It covers both traditional manufacturing and new technologies (micro-electronics).

The Swiss are not the only watchmakers to manufacture high-quality timepieces and are consequently faced with strong competition. However, thanks to their unique infrastructure and to their know-how and spirit of innovation, they have succeeded in maintaining their leading position.

The intrinsic value of the "Swiss made" label, therefore, is the result of considerable efforts on the part of watchmaking companies, who are ultimately responsible for maintaining its reputation.

While prestigious brand names have thrived, they have never relegated the "Swiss made" label to a secondary place. The brand names and "Swiss made" have always worked together in an alliance that provides the consumer with the best of guarantees. "

source: http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php

xrunner2 · January 2007

The intrinsic value of the "Swiss made" label, therefore, is the result of considerable efforts on the part of watchmaking companies, who are ultimately responsible for maintaining its reputation.

It would be interesting to compare the management style of a long time Swiss watch maker vs GM and Cadillac. Has Cadillac division been forced to make many compromises in research, engineering, materials, etc for the overall goals of GM? If Cadillac were staffed with top notch people of all disciplines and then split off from GM, would it have a better chance of meeting/beating the best in the world? Many companies have split off a division through the years to enable the newly formed company to flourish and prosper.

snakeweasel · January 2007

the problem is you like many others expect people to instantly forget the unreliability horrors of G.M's past.

Well people immediately forget the problems and mistakes of the imports, so its not a stretch to forget about a car that was last built some 14 years ago.

Cheap interior in a car like the Cadillac CTS sends a very insulting message to a potential buyer that has money.

Then it must also send the same message to the imports that don't have a much better interior.

snakeweasel · January 2007

What?

I'll explain it to you, you are a GM basher, The only reason to bring up a car that hasn't been in production for 14 years is so that you can continue to bash GM. Is that simple enough for you?

I have plenty of today for you.

Well no one is forcing you to read or respond to my posts. But somehow I think I struck a nerve.

snakeweasel · January 2007

Yet they weren't always like that. I collect 19th century pocket watches and American ones were just so much better than their Swiss counterparts of the period. And even though they are rarer Swiss watches from that period generally have half the value of an identical American watch.

douglasr · January 2007

As XR2 says, Cadillac and for that matter GM did its best when the divisions had control of the product. Roger Smith destroyed all of that, and the establishment of GMAD did not help the independence of the divisions. As John Delorean once said (of the Vega): "We can't put a not in the glovebox saying, 'We didn't build it GMAD did'..." Despite his later misfortunes in Dunmurray, JZD was right...and Alfred Sloan knew as well that the products had to be left to the divisions.

Of course today it seems an impossibility to go back to that system given global requirements and platform sharing. But the overall tasking and design could be left to renascent divisions. Then....anything might be possible. Just look what has happened at Ford Motor to see the opposite effect.

DouglasR

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Well there's always the new kid on the block to take over...I mean, there was no Lexus in 1989 (at least not one we really knew much about).

The article talks about the "perception" of quality and the buyer's "trust" in the name or product.

I guess we would call it brand equity. Obviously the Swiss have built this up while others have let it go.

I don't know if you remember when German cameras were considered the best in the world.

Same deal. Of course it doesn't help your product to declare war on the world, but.... :P

I think exploring the notion of "quality" is quite interesting....

louiswei · January 2007

Well people immediately forget the problems and mistakes of the imports

You are correct, the imports do have their own share of glitches here and there, for example, like Toyota's recent recall scandal and new Camry's transmission problem. However, when there are problems like that, they usually fix it real quick and provide excellent service to those whom were effected. Also, the long track record of good quality also contributed to why the consumers are willing to forget them more easily.

Was that the case for GM? I don't think so. GM's long track record of putting out inferior products and provide not-so-satisfactory service from late 70s all the way to the 90s speaks for itself.

Then it must also send the same message to the imports that don't have a much better interior.

If compare class by class I really can't think of any imports that has an inferior interior than its domestic counterparts. One special case could be the last generation G35, which really utilized some cheap materials. However, Infiniti still managed to make it look better than the CTS which might has better quality material for its interior.

imidazol97 · January 2007

>Well people immediately forget the problems and mistakes of the imports, so

I just heard a radio car mechanic talk about the class action settlement by Toyota about sludge. He seemed to marvel at how they had shrugged it off at first and had that accepted by many. He talked about cleaning many motors of sludge himself. He talked about Toyota having not shared enough information with dealers so the dealers fluffed off the car owners with problems as having caused it themselves!!!

If this were to have been GM's Chevrolet division, imagine the noise and stink doing this would have raised in the public and in the media. Instead Toyota does a Firestone (stalling for years hoping the tires will have been thrown out and owners have nothing to show for reimbursement)...

Rather than deal in the past, how should problems and recalls be handled in the future? Reliability is easier when you're a foreign company and many models were sold in the homeland before being made available in the States. That way the model you sell here can appear to have better than others reliability.

louiswei · January 2007

eliability is easier when you're a foreign company and many models were sold in the homeland before being made available in the States.

Can you tell me, or other here, that which models were sold in Japan before they did in the states besides Honda's Fit and Toyota Yaris?

Current models please, models back in the 70s do not count.

imidazol97 · January 2007

Someone posted that information in the Standard of the world forum...,GM General Model view..., or Large Sedans under 30000, or one of the other discussions. I thought I had bookmarked the posts, but I didn't. Feel free to search for it yourself.

louiswei · January 2007

Exactly, just what I thought...

I am a regular on those 2 forums you mentioned, don't recall anyone listed any models...

fintail · January 2007

"Then it must also send the same message to the imports that don't have a much better interio"

But that still means the domestic competitor has an inferior interior. To win, you can't be less than or equal to, you must be greater.

fintail · January 2007

"Mercedes and BMW sell across all ranges of product, which Cadillac does not match (there are no "3 series" type Cadillacs!) "

Isn't the CTS supposed to be in the same category as a 3er? Size doesn't look massively different, price points are quite similar, position in the brand heirarchy is the same. A 5er competitor it aint.

imidazol97 · January 2007

>Exactly, just what I thought...

Sorry I mentioned it. I knew what to expect from your posts already and haven't been disappointed.

Obviously if I hadn't found it in a discussion here, I wouldn't have said I found it in a discussion here. Just skip my posts.

This is supposed to be a positive discussion about GM having Cadillac beome stand of the world again.

louiswei · January 2007

This is supposed to be a positive discussion about GM having Cadillac beome stand of the world again.

Sure, then why don't we stop mentioning anything about Toyota, Honda, Lexus, MB and BMW for now and concentrate on Cadillac?

Hmm? Agree?

I just don't understand how is it going to help GM return Cadillac to the standard of the world by talking about Toyota's problems. :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Some folks aren't taking the hint about beating the dead horse and so I'm regrettably starting to delete posts that are turning into two-way private arguments. I'll recommend that your regular host and roving host do the same so that the topic doesn't get canned altogether.

I hope we can all settle back down to a level of civility and not crowd everyone out of the room by continual personal arguments.

Once again, Cadillac has been tried and convicted for all crimes in the past and has served its ten year sentence.

Let's get back to the present and hear what you think about Cadillac's present and future.

If you need some suggestions, I'd like to know your thoughts on things like how the public comes to perceive something as a quality product? Does media like TV and movies and music have a lot to do with this? could Lexus or Mercedes fall from grace and Cadillac come out on top? How would that happen? Can you see some other car company seizing a spot in the luxury car field like Lexus did in 1990, maybe with an entirely new brand-name? Does dealer service and dealer image have anything to do nameplate prestige or is mostly all about product?

andres3 · January 2007

GM and Cadillac will never again be top quality automakers.
They are past their prime (which wasn't all that good to begin with).

allargon · January 2007

Media has a lot to do with it. Most would argue that hip-hop rescued both Cadillac and Lincoln from obscurity with Escalade and the Navigator, respectively.

I will respond to the above post re: foreign companies importing tried and tested models to the states. Where shall I begin? The Nissan Versa -- a Renault. The Prius was initially tried and tested in Japan before the generation we call the Classic was brought to the States. Heck, even GM is doing so with the Saturn/Opel/Vauxhall Astra.

Back to Cadillac... The new CTS is a good start. I do believe 2009 should bring the new CTS-V and the new SRX. Please, please, please fix the XLR and err... price it properly. A Kappa based ALR with a shoehorned V-6 would be nice. A BRX is already planned. The BLS? Is there a compact RWD platform in GM's profile that would fit it? It could be a small sedan, hatch, etc.

Mercedes is falling from grace on its own. Lexus can't even outsell BMW or Mercedes in Japan. Cadillac can't outsell BMW or Lexus in the US. Cadillac needs put a shotgun in the form of superior products to the head of every other luxury brand and pull the trigger. They have the best large truck based SUV (only Infiniti comes close). However, they lack in every other segment. It's the product plus dealer service that makes a luxury brand great. BTW, I do see Hyundai creating a luxury brand or buying one (Jaguar/Astin Martin/Packard?) and putting even more pressure on the domestics as well as other worldwide luxury brands.

bumpy · January 2007

Lexus would be a dead product if it were sustained only by its Japanese sales, (and for which, it was not available in Japan at the outset, allowing them to "dump" them in the U.S. market at $38,500 a copy.)

Lexus LSxxx = Toyota Celsior
Lexus GSxxx = Toyota Aristo
Lexus SCxxx = Toyota Soarer
Lexus ISxxx = Toyota Altezza
Lexus ESxxx = Toyota Windom

Toyota finally decided to start selling them as Lexi in Japan last year.

bumpy · January 2007

A lot of the supposed "they sold at home first" notion comes from the fact that some markets don't have model years like we do in the US. The first S13 Silvias hit the Japanese market in May 1988 and the first 240SXs arrived here around September 1988 as 1989 models.

bumpy · January 2007

Once again, Cadillac has been tried and convicted for all crimes in the past and has served its ten year sentence

Only ten years? Must have gotten time off for good behavior. :P

douglasr · January 2007

"Never say never..." James Bond once replied...

That holds true in the auto industry. Let's keep in mind that when the British Army of the Rhine occuppied Wolfsburg in June 1945, taking over from the U.S. Army, the factory fell under the command of the Royal Engineers Colonel Michael McEvoy and Major Ivan Hirst. They found the 'beetle' and recognised its inherent traits. Those first cars assembled by the remaining workforce of 450 men to serve the Control Commission for Germany were anything but regarded as having "quality" in our modern sense of the word. Even the "Export" Model did not have chrome bumpers until 1949!

Henry Ford II drove a Beetle in Germany in 1948, adding "Well, at least it's a car..." For various reasons, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, the British Intellegence Operational Service, executives at Ford and even GM dismissed Wolfsburg and the Beetle, along with a bevy of British Motor executives. Leaving Colonel McEvoy and Major Hirst to build cars for the CCG. Servicemen voted with their pocketbooks, later able to "buy" a VW for $630. (Equivalent then in 1946-7 to 100 lite bulbs; 200 tonnes of bricks; or 1,200 English cigarettes---plus 5lbs coffee: what a Beetle was worth in exchange on the black market!) Thus began the story of VW after the war...a car "no one would want", except, it turned out: the people.

VWAG sold more than 3.2Mn cars in Europe last year. Not even Heinz Nordhoff, the first auto executive to take charge of the factory under the aegis of the Royal Engineers and the CCG believed such a goal was ever possible. Certainly not selling 17.2Mn Beetles over more than 30 years.

Given that possibility, anything is achievable. Cadillac could regain that mantle, as GM may well be able to do. It also depends on the competition...hopefully Cadillac will not remain the sole surviving American marque in the luxury market.

DouglasR

(Sources: 'Battle for the Beetle' Karl Ludvigsen with Ivan Hirst, Bentley Publishers, Cambridge, Ma. 2003)

louiswei · January 2007

Yes, I agree on the Versa, 1st gen Prius and the 240SX. However, none of the mainstream cars is "they sold at home first".

To compare Lexus' sales in Japan and Cadillac's in US is totally apples to oranges (at least right now). Cadillac is a long established brand here in its home turf and it got beat by the newcomers like MB, BMW and Lexus. This is the first year Lexus is sold in Japan so its number can only go up not down. We can revisit this issue couple years from now but to use Lexus' first year number is just plainly idiotic.

snakeweasel · January 2007

"Never say never..." James Bond once replied...

But he said never when he said never to say never.

Thus began the story of VW after the war...a car "no one would want", except, it turned out: the people.

The French wanted it for war repertations but the powers that be said no. Also the bug is another car that was bought largely because of its image.

louiswei · January 2007

Does media like TV and movies and music have a lot to do with this?

The hip-pop culture only helped Cadillac or maybe MB. I don't really see it has a lot to do with other manufactures. As matter of fact, even though maybe Caddy got some sales through this hip-pop image thingy but it might also loss some conservative customers in the process. I personally like BMW & Lexus' subtle image more than Cadillac's "bang, in your face" one.

could Lexus or Mercedes fall from grace and Cadillac come out on top?

Is it POSSIBLE? Yes, anything is possible. Is it PROBABLE? Not really, unless Lexus, MB and BMW decide to shoot themselves in the foot. Classic example is GM in 80s and early 90s. If GM didn't start putting out inferior products and provide terrible service I really don't see the imports could enjoy the success they have today. However, that's not saying Caddy couldn't gain market share. I think if it puts honest effort into its quality products then its sales number would definitely go up. But to dethrone MB and Lexus? I think that's too much of a stretch for right now. I say one step at a time, Caddy.

Can you see some other car company seizing a spot in the luxury car field like Lexus did in 1990

Yes I can. Watch out for Hyundai to establish a new luxury brand and undercut Lexus. All Hyundai has to do is to have enough cash (which they are working on right now), seize the right moment and borrow Lexus' strategy. With the LS pushing $65K - $70K range, I see deja vu all over again for Hyundai to undercut Lexus with it own version of the 1990 LS400.

Does dealer service and dealer image have anything to do nameplate prestige or is mostly all about product?

I think dealer service is very important to a brand and this is especially true with the luxury brands. However I don't think it should be the number one priority for any manufacture; to put out good quality products still remain on top of "to do list". I don't know about other people but as for me, I can tolerate not-so-satisfactory dealer service if I am happy with the car. On the other hand I could care less about the dealer service if the car is either horrible or doesn't satisfy me.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Why don't we look at the Lexus story in 1990 and figure out how they did that?

Now here's a company with a new nameplate entering a very mature and presumably saturated luxury car market in the USA practically owned by Mercedes on the high end and BMW in the middle. Seems like a tall order. How'd they pull that off?

fintail · January 2007

Here's how I have always seen it.

MBs were grossly overpriced (and the W140 was even more overpriced upon introduction in 92), and had a large clientele that didn't care for any driving dynamics these cars might have had...they just wanted euro-plush and cachet. MBs of the time were reliable, but did require extensive maintenance as well.

Lexus shows up with something that offers much of what a 70K MB offered...for 40K. It was even a virtual copy of the MB in exterior design. It was very refined, had a catchy name, and gave all the tactile/plush feel many period MB customers wanted. It also was less expensive to keep around. That was a winning combo. It was an S class for E class money.

It's almost like Lexus knew that the W140 was going to be very expensive, as well. By then (1992) a LS was what, 45K...and a W140 ran 80-90K for V8 cars. That helped them too, they could undercut that car even more. And MB made the car very complex, which led to maintenance issues, and that helped Lexus again. They seemed to know what to do to make MB panic.

lemko · January 2007

Uh, people have pretty much forgotten the reliability horrors of Hyundai and they were a lot more recent. I remember when my brother bought a new 2000 Hyundai Sonata. I thought he was nuts, but the car turned out to be pretty good. The interior was pretty rough compared to other cars, but aside from that he had little trouble outside of a check engine light early on. He followed it up with the purchase of a 2005 Hyundai Sonata.

lemko · January 2007

Shoot, I had a plumber come over my house. He was there ten minutes and charged $75! $75 x 6 = $450 - more than ten times what that "overpaid" autoworker makes. Good God, I went into the wrong business.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Just imagine what it would have cost if you had German plumbing!

louiswei · January 2007

lemko, by the way, have you forgotten to mention that the plumber uses his own money to buy equipments, transportation, and pay for advertisement. Also, he probably doesn't get jobs back to back so in other words he doesn't work 8 hour straight everyday from Monday to Friday like the UAW workers do.

So again, let's stick with apples to apples okay?

I am interesting to see the comparison between UAW workers' wages and import workers'. Does anyone know where I can find that information?

imidazol97 · January 2007

I remember a lot of Toyota advertisements for the Lexus from that era. They really did a great job of positioning the public's thinking about the car. Weren't they the ads with marbles rolling along perfectly-sized gaps between boy panels? Weren't they the stacks of glasses stacked on each other while the car rode smoothly?

What were the techniques used?

GM needs to separate Cadillac from the rest of the company in the public's perception, not just in name of the line of cars.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Well Toyota separated Lexus with a totally new name.

I'm wondering...hmmm...maybe GM should start with an entire new name for their luxury line?

lemonhater · January 2007

I dont think folks have forgotten the horrors of Hyundai. There still are people who dont trust em. I think people who value reliability above all else go Toyota or Honda. People who want a low price go Hyundai. I think this is what is hurting the domestics the most. They are not perceived as the cheapest or the most reliable.

However I think that if Hyundai keeps improving they could give Toyota a run for its money. I think the reason why people are a bit more forgiving on Hyundai is the HUGE warranty and the fact that they seem to have a reputation for not haggling over it.

Both the domestics and Toyota have a reputation for giving folks a run around over the warranty.

imidazol97 · January 2007

>HUGE warranty

The GM warranty is 100,000 miles now.

plekto · January 2007

Yes I can. Watch out for Hyundai to establish a new luxury brand and undercut Lexus. All Hyundai has to do is to have enough cash (which they are working on right now), seize the right moment and borrow Lexus' strategy. With the LS pushing $65K - $70K range, I see deja vu all over again for Hyundai to undercut Lexus with it own version of the 1990 LS400.

You'll note that GM isn't sitting on its heels either. The same comparison could be made between the Lucerne(with the V8 of course) and the Lexus and Infinity models. 80-90% of the same car for a huge wad less.

And it's actually selling quite well. So are most Cadillac models(2006 CTSs were sold out in about a month once the 2007s came out) You can still find 2006 Mercury and Lincolns on the lot. The CTS was(and the enw one moreso) wasn't a BMW or Mercedes killer. It was an attempt at making a car simmilar to their current offereings for a lot less money. And GM sold a ton of them - all they could make in fact(virtually zero fleet sales).

I think Buick/Cadillac is going to be fine. They are pulling Hyundai's trick and being a major thorn in the competition's side. (and way better in terms of reliability/cost to own) Just a tune-up on a 5 series or E class can run you several months worth of payments, then there's the A/C if it goes out and then the brakes and tires, and...(non-warranty covered items for the most part). Out of warranty the bills are so high that you are always better off buying the extended warranty.(which is a unique situation in the industry)

And GM... Chevrolet repair costs for near Lexus quality.

P.S. The GM waranty stays in full effect upon transfer. Hyundai chops their in half for the second owner. The 100K warranty on the drivetrain is actually helping sales a lot. 100K waranty on a Cadillac... well, that's the entire loan period and then some. That lowers your costs considerably.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

It's way too soon to claim Lexus reliability for the Lucerne. It's a 2006 intro. Even Lexus didn't have Lexus reliability ratings in 1991.

plekto · January 2007

Note I said "near Lexus quality".

85-90% the reliability for a huge chunk of change less, combined with a 100K warranty. That's Hyundai's strategy and it's working very well for GM now.

louiswei · January 2007

Until Buick makes Lucerne RWD (or at least AWD) and upgrades its interior severely I don't see it challenging any luxury brand models, nevertheless the LS460.

However, I see Lucerne as a formidable opponent to models such as Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima and Hyundai Azera.

fintail · January 2007

Yeah, I remember similar ads.

That's an area where GM sorely needs work - marketing and promotion.

louiswei · January 2007

That's an area where GM sorely needs work - marketing and promotion.

Really?

Silverado's "This is our country" seems pretty good to me...

fintail · January 2007

That demographic is the only one GM has been able to effectively hit.

nvbanker · January 2007

Until Buick makes Lucerne RWD (or at least AWD) and upgrades its interior severely I don't see it challenging any luxury brand models, nevertheless the LS460.

However, I see Lucerne as a formidable opponent to models such as Toyota Avalon, Nissan Maxima and Hyundai Azera.

You hit the sweet spot here - exactly right....

imidazol97 · January 2007

The marketing in the commercials and overall advertising needs to be improved from my viewpoint. The precision of hitting an exact unfulfilled market point with both product and with advertising (image) is difficult.

The concept from some is that GM needs to have something to directly compete with a certain automobile that they themselves think is great from another company. But GM needs to do what was successful for the 3 imports in the 80s and 90s: fill a niche that's not being satisfied and make an image. GM will never make someone happy who expects them to compete with the ABC company's sporty driver, high maintenance racemobile; but GM can make a car to slice off a part of that market that's not filled with people total enamoured of that particular car. That's what Lexus did.

I.e., build a Civic price and demographic competitor but don't try to be a Civic because you'll never make that Civic-preferring customer happy. But then you have to keep the sales you do make happy and advertising for image needs to make them feel they're owning a quality product. The Cadillac (and Buick) part needs to be Lexused in image. How many people believe Lexus is a Toyota?

Question: Is Kia still connected to GM?

louiswei · January 2007

imidazol97, I have no problem when people call my Lexus a glorified Toyota because it is. Just like Acura is a glorified Honda and Infiniti a glorified Nissan. However, the key word here is "glorified". Toyota "glorified" Lexus so much that many people would forget that he/she is driving a Toyota. If GM is able (I think they are on the right track) to put same "glorify factor" into Cadillac then it should have no problem competing in the luxury market.

Kia is under Hyundai group and Daewoo is part of GM. I don't know if Kia was ever owned by GM but you could have mistaken Kia with Daewoo. BTW, Daewoo just took the number 2 selling spot in Korea from Kia last year (2006).

fintail · January 2007

"but GM can make a car to slice off a part of that market that's not filled with people total enamoured of that particular car. That's what Lexus did. "

I agree with that, and the idea has a lot of merit. With the right planning it should still possible to create your own market or niche out of existing consumers, as Lexus did. The product just has to be right.

I bet a lot of Lexus drivers have no clue about the Toyota connection...that's proof of the marketing success.

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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