Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

nvbanker · March 2007

And, there is "degree" or amount of repairs and how serious. According to CR, not all car brands/models are created equally. Being this is a Cadillac board, I have seen more black circles for Cadillac than for Lexus in CR. According to CR info then, Cadillac of the past (used cars), might be more trouble prone. Seems that Lexus set the standard for reliability and hopefully Cadillac/GM can match it.

I have an 03 Escalade with 45,000 miles on it. The things that are failing on the car (now that the warranty is up) are little issues, like lights on the steering wheel and speedometer that have quit working. These are fairly labor intensive to replace, if not costly for the parts. I'm not going to attempt it, so I'll just carry a flashlight with me to see how fast I'm going from now on, at night.

Anyway, yes, little gagetry issues happen to old GM cars, but they do to Lexus too - usually about 100,000 miles further down the road. But the basics, the engine, transmission, interior leather quality - it's all there.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2007

CR's recent survey of 1.3 million cars belonging to subscribers give Cadillac pretty bad marks for reliability, sad to say:

However, please note some of the other $$$ cars on the same list before you cry "bias"!

Least reliable

Vehicles listed in scoring order, starting with the worst score.

SMALL CARS: Chevrolet Cobalt, Nissan Sentra (2006), Volkswagen Jetta (5-cyl.), Chevrolet Aveo.

FAMILY CARS: Volkswagen Passat (4-cyl.)*

UPSCALE/LARGE CARS: Jaguar X-Type, Chrysler 300 (V8), Saab 9-3.

LUXURY CARS: Cadillac STS (V8), Mercedes-Benz S-Class (2006), Mercedes-Benz CLS*, Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedan, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar S-Type.

SPORTS/SPORTY CARS:
Pontiac Solstice*, Mercedes-Benz SL, Mercedes-Benz CLK, Mercedes-Benz SLK (V6), Chevrolet Corvette, Porsche 911, Carrera, Ford Mustang (V6).

WAGONS/MINIVANS: Buick Terraza, Chevrolet Uplander, Saturn Relay, Nissan Quest.

SMALL SUVS: Kia Sportage.

MIDSIZED SUVS: Mercedes-Benz M-Class*, Land Rover LR3 (V8), Cadillac SRX (V8), Mercedes-Benz R-Class*, Volkswagen Touareg, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Hummer H3*, BMW X5 (V8, 2006), Volvo XC90 (6 & V8), Ford Explorer (V8), Mercury Mountaineer (V8).

LARGE SUVS: Nissan Armada, Infiniti QX56, Lincoln Navigator, Hummer H2.

PICKUP TRUCKS: Nissan Titan, Ford F-250 (TurboDiesel), Dodge Dakota (4WD), Cadillac Escalade EXT (2006).

imidazol97 · March 2007

>CR's recent survey of 1.3 million cars belonging to subscribers

How many of those represented data about each of the Cadillac V8 models so we can guess at the reliability margin...? CR never tells. Total number of responses from the convenience survey could be 1.299,900 from Toyotas and 30 STS, 30 SRX, etc., for the other 100.

As is sometimes said in the certain discussion groups here when bad things are being posted, the groups tend to attract the negative posters over emphasizing the bad things. I see lots, lots of STS's in my area and people don't seem unhappy with them. I don't see them sitting beside the road or being towed away.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2007

Yes points all well taken; however, if you look at the list, it kind of makes sense when you view all the other makes of cars on it. No car on the list was a shock to me.

My b**ch with CR is that we don't know the *gravity* of each complaint just reading these lists. What if the "unreliability" of the Porsche was a dead engine on a freeway and the "unreliability" of the Cadillac was a faulty power window. Big diff, right?

But my point in posting this data was not to give CR any credibility or Cadillac any lack of it, only to show that this kind of publicity is not good for any company and Cadillac should be pro-active in responding to surveys like this----that is, "getting to the bottom of them".

You remember how Benz ignored all these bad PR and look at them now. Turns out the critics were probably right, if not about the product, at least about the company attitude concerning its own image.

So a company can't dismiss CR with a wave of the hand...this kind of PR really hurts, even if it were faulty data.

imidazol97 · March 2007

>not good for any company and Cadillac should be pro-active in responding to surveys like

That's right.

62vetteefp · March 2007

The time is right for Cadillac to develop a V12 super sedan, but General Motors' luxury division should also be working to patch the hole in the lower end of its model line.

A new, high-end luxury sedan  think prices ranging from $70,000 to $130,000  with unique styling, sophisticated technology and a model line topped by the V12 is a natural move for Cadillac. It could lift the brand fully into the big leagues of the global luxury market, competing head to head  but at a lower price, according to AutoWeek magazine  with established models like the Mercedes-Benz S 600 and BMW 760Li.

The model under development reportedly builds on the knockout styling of the Cadillac Sixteen concept car, which debuted at the North American International Auto Show four years ago.

The Sixteen featured a striking design, a 1,000-horsepower V16 engine and interior features including cut crystal lenses for its gauges and handwoven silk carpet.

The V12 under development reportedly consists of two of GM's 3.6-liter V6s mated together to create a 7.2-liter 600-horsepower engine to compete with the $122,600 438-horsepower BMW 760Li and $139,900 510-horsepower Mercedes S 600.

It makes sense for Cadillac to start working on a car to scale those heights.

On the other hand, when GM executives considered building the Sixteen in 2003, it was an insult to buyers' intelligence and potentially a damaging distraction from the hard work the brand needed to do.

Cadillac had only begun to repair its reputation. It had introduced the excellent CTS, but the jury was out as to whether GM's luxury brand was for real. Today, Cadillac has built on the CTS's success with the STS sedan, V-series high-performance models and the 2008 CTS, which goes on sale this fall.

It's unlikely the V12 model could be ready before 2010, after Cadillac launches the second-generation STS and a new crossover SUV.

Cadillac can then credibly claim that it's ready to go after the world's best luxury sedans.

However, it must also come up with a first-rate car smaller than the CTS. Not for the United States, where the CTS works perfectly as Cadillac's opening bid, but for Europe.

As Jim Hall, vice president for industry analysis in the Southfield office of consultant AutoPacific, points out, Cadillac doesn't have a competitive base model for the rest of the world.

"If Cadillac wants to be a global luxury brand, they need a better entry-level car in Europe," Hall said. That niche is currently occupied by the BLS, a front-wheel-drive car that nailed the Cadillac look but falls short on performance and handling, he said.

Cadillac passed its first test: developing cars that could compete with the BMW 3- and 5-series. Now it has to prove it can build a full product line rather than being seduced by the glamour of a super sedan.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2007

I couldn't think of a worse time for Cadillac to introduce a gas-guzzling 16 cylinder car. They'll run right into global warming, $4 a gallon gas and every else's hybrid/electrics.

I think the last paragraphs of the article make a lot of sense however.

gagrice · March 2007

I just went in to my local Cadillac dealer. Real nice salesman. Went through all the finer points of the SRX and Escalade. I am in agreement with several owners of the new Escalade. The seats are TOO hard. The 2007 Escalade has some great features and drives like a dream car. The SRX has the neatest moonroof. Opens up way back. The SRX felt a bit cramped to me. Not what I would want in an SUV.

He has a 2006 Escalade and the seats are much nicer than the new one. It is in White Diamond and about $20,000 less than a new one. The salesman was very honest about the sales being off when the price of gas goes up. The new ones move fast the used ones are there for a while. I am tempted to jump on it. It was loaded with all the goodies. Many of which I would never order in a new one. With the price difference from the GL Mercedes I can buy gas for the next 15 years to feed that gas guzzling Escalade. The Caddy has 6 more years of Bumper to Bumper warranty with NO deductible.

Bottom line: with all the advancements I think that Cadillac took a step backward with the hard sporty seats. The people buying Cadillacs want the comfort first, sporty second. Escalade is a big part of the Cadillac come back. They need to be very in tune to that consumer base. Don't listen to the kids that have no money.

sls002 · March 2007

I think that a sixteen would be silly, since a 48 valve V12 would probably have better performance than a 32 valve V16, particularly if one looks at fuel consumption.

While $4 gas is possible, I really can't see the price of fuel remaining high if one can make syntheic fuels for around a $1 a gallon. The longer crude stays above $50 per barrel, the more likly syntheic fuels will go into production.

xrunner2 · March 2007

Cadillac passed its first test: developing cars that could compete with the BMW 3- and 5-series. Now it has to prove it can build a full product line rather than being seduced by the glamour of a super sedan.

Don't think that Caddy is yet on equal footing with 3 and 5. Do agree that this might not be time for GM to monkey around with low volume super sedan. Perhaps when GM posts 12-16 quarters of "solid" profit then they can fool around with exotic stuff.

62vetteefp · March 2007

I do not make this stuff up. These are opinions of auto press.

I will say folks here are about 1 year behind the ball on their opinions/thoughts. One year ago most here seemed to think Wagoner was going to be out, now he is one of the most highly thought of CEO's in the US. Many said GM woyuld be bankrupt. they are making money and now the press seems to think things are going to be OK.

Lets wait one year and see where GM is.

bumpy · March 2007

Cadillac needs a good $60-80k sedan before they can start playing in the six digits. Now is the time to start developing their big stick, though.

The other thing they need is to make the dual-mode hybrid tranny and direct injection standard across the board. If you're paying that kind of money, why shouldn't you get ALL the good stuff?

Mr_Shiftright · March 2007

What makes you think the auto press overall has a very good record of prediction? It's really no better or worse than we are. Mostly they just parrot the PR they read. It's the rare (and good) auto journalist who spends months digging out the real story. You can count them on your fingers.

I sure don't know the "real story". Best most of us can do is project the future through the past, which suggests GM is perfectly capable of going bankrupt even in the midst of prosperity. But that's not something I would predict personally.

But until we the public see the downward spiral of market share loss come to an end and an upturn, why should we beterribly optimistic, based on "future" this and "future" that announcements? And really, can one CEO substantially change an entire corporate culture that is hide-bound in stubborn conservatism? (but not in the good sense of that word)

sls002 · March 2007

Are we talking about Cadillac's market share, or are we talking about GM's market share? I think Cadillac's market share could increase by building cheaper Cadillacs and taking some of the Buick market. I think this is already in progress. This is basically what Lexus does with the ES model. GM's market share on the other hand, will probably continue to decline, as GM probably has too much market share at present, and can't sustain it.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2007

Yes good point. GMs market share isn't sustainable, I would agree with that. GM really needs to continue to re-organize.

The quality of individual products isn't the whole issue. Many a wonderful car has been dragged to its death by a badly run corporation.

62vetteefp · March 2007

Come on, go back 1-1 1/2 years in these forums. The points I noted were like gospel, GM was going bankrupt, Wagoner was dead meat. All the lemmings followed those predictions and predicted the same thing.

As I said what is said here is about a year behind. We will see in one year.

62vetteefp · March 2007

Retail US market share will continue to increase at GM. It is overall US market share that may decrease. World wide GM will continue to increase, as will Toyota. There is a race going on and few know that GM is doing AOK.

Hey, it is my prediction. Go back and see what I said 1 - 1 1/2 years ago and see who has a better track record.

gagrice · March 2007

In spite of the popularity of the newly designed Escalade. It has some slick features for sure. I do not think it will be as popular as the last generation. UNLESS they go back to the seats that are the standard of comfort in a luxury vehicle. Just read the reviews here on Edmund's the number one complaint is the rock hard seats. Most by repeat buyers that were familiar with the comfort of the older Escalades.

After a test drive in both new and used, I am thinking about a low mileage 2006 Escalade the dealer has on the lot.

mediapusher · March 2007

If GM wants to attract younger buyers then why don't they try something like build reliable cars perhaps? Imagine that.

Considering what cars cost these days people are much smarter about how they purchase a commodity such as this.

GM's products are still far below the competition when it comes to body integrity and hardware, reliability and technological advances, and yet they want top dollar for their junk.

The electric car that GM made such ballyhoo over near the 1st of the year, and now just like I figured it is very likely that it won't be produced (Volt). This probably was of no surprise to many, as GM is famous for doing this.

If Cadillac was really worried about being the standard of the world they would make their whole line-up of cars something that people want, not just the CTS, and even the CTS only gets warm reviews, not red hot reviews.

gagrice · March 2007

Actually the Cadillac Escalade, Escalade ESV and the SRX are the only vehicles Cadillac sells that are making gains over last years sales figures. In the Luxury SUV segment it looks like they are taking sales from Lexus. Lexus SUV sales are off while most of the Luxo SUV segment is up for this year over last year.

mediapusher · March 2007

Gagrice-

I'm not talking about SUVs or trucks. Everyone already knows that GM is the king of those. I was talking about CARS.

--Mediapusher

mediapusher · March 2007

What's biased about those stereotypes? I'm not even sure they are stereotypes. What young person have you seen clamoring over a Cadillac DTS? Puhleeez. They are old poopers cars.

People that buy Cadillac DTS's want something as cushy as a living room so that their rolls of fat and double chins don't jiggle all over the place when they go over a bump.

62vetteefp · March 2007

People that buy Cadillac DTS's want something as cushy as a living room so that their rolls of fat and double chins don't jiggle all over the place when they go over a bump.

Do you want to shoot them too?

gagrice · March 2007

I think the important point is you can buy a lot of cars that are rock hard riding. Why destroy the leader of the plush riding vehicles? Not everyone that likes a nice ride is over weight. Some of us worked hard to get where we can afford a luxury ride. I used to like my 911 ride and handling. Now I want 911 handing with Cadillac comfort. I believe it exists. Everyone seems so concerned about appealing to the younger generation. You cannot afford a Cadillac working at Wendy's. Let them drive Toyonda's.

snakeweasel · March 2007

I don't know a whole lot about cars but General Motors, seems to be building much better ones today than in years past wouldn't you agree ?

I would agree, but there are people with such an anti american car bias that no matter what they put out compared to the competition it will be looked down on. I swear that many of these people would be praising any Cadillac if it had a BMW badge on it or they would trash any BMW if it had a Cadillac badge on it.

lemko · March 2007

Like I've said many times before, GM could build a car with quality that exceeds that of a Lexus LS, handles like a Ferrari, is as luxurious as a Bentley, has the fuel economy of a Prius, and sells for the price of a Kia Rio and some people would still bash it.

I, for one, really really want a Cadillac DTS - the Number One vehicle on my car shopping A-list. I'm very far from being an old coot - I'm 41.

gagrice · March 2007

The DTS is a very nice car. I sat in one while at the dealers. I would buy it over the LS460. It has more room for people and stuff, equally equipped the DTS sells for about 10 grand less. I believe Cadillac can regain their place in the Luxury market.

bumpy · March 2007

I, for one, really really want a Cadillac DTS

There is an endless supply of lightly-used and nicely-depreciated Cadillacs and Buicks at estate sales all over the country.

punkr77 · March 2007

I think Cadillac shares may of the same problems as other GM divisions, only to an even higher degree.

Caddy lost many buyers to better built cars from Japan in the 80's and 90's, many of which have no desire to return. Caddy spends too much money on designing and building ultra-high end supercars that few can afford and even fewer want and building cutting edge concept cars that won't see production (or when they do, still have concept car build quality). Caddy's loyal following is aging, and their current cars don't strike younger drivers as something to aspire to. I doubt if you surveyed 20 somethings what car they'd want to own after they've "made it" if Caddy would even apear. Caddy also has tried to add value through a bunch of gimmicy stuff that costs too much and is takes away from the driving experience or has little benefit like their night vision and such (BMW and others are also at fault here).

I'll use my grandfather and myself as an example. My Grandfather was a Caddy man for years. Then he bought a Japanese car in the early 90's (929S) and never went back because it was so superior in reliability and refinement and because Caddy priced him out of the market. I on the other hand never see myself picking Caddy over a BMW or Japanese make.

The only thing they really have going for them is the big V-8's. The only caddy that appeals to me at all is the XLR and XLR-V which are both grossly overpriced. If I were at that stage in life I think I'd take a Vette and spend the rest on an around the world tour (or get breast enhancement for my trophy wife).

I don't see Caddy becoming the standard again any time soon.

mariner7 · March 2007

To be even in the discussion of SOW, don't you have to be available in much of the world, and not just from sea to shining sea? You can count on one hand the countries where you can go to a local dealer to order a Caddy: the three North American nations. And I do assume, maybe wrongly, you can get Caddys in Mexico! Maybe you can do it in the oil rich nations of the Middle East, because I see Chevy Suburbans in the news clips, so I assume 'Lades are exported there too.

I think that's it. I read the one Caddy dealer in England closed because of lack of business. A few years ago, Caddy tried to set up a dealer network in continental Europe. I don't think anything came out of it, because I haven't heard about it since.

Meanwhile MB, BMW ,Audi, and even Porsche, you can get anywhere in the six continents, except for some desolate war-torn countries. Oh, Lexus and Infiniti are setting up networks in Europe and the bigger countries in the developing world! There's not much doubt they will succeed, especially Lexus.

lemko · March 2007

I doubt Lexus, and especially Infiniti, will find much success in Europe as Europeans are even more fiercely loyal to their own luxury makes.

mediapusher · March 2007

Gagrice-

And my point is, when they get to the point where they can afford a Cadillac, trust me they won't buy a Cadillac, they'll buy a luxury Lexus or BMW.

-- mediapusher

Mr_Shiftright · March 2007

Cadillac has a long way to go in terms of market visibility. Even in the USA, aside from selected Cadillac-heavy cities, the Cadillac is a non-entity. It's not even a player in the San Francisco Bay Area for instance. It sometimes seems as rare as a Maserati on the streets.

grbeck · March 2007

mariner7: A few years ago, Caddy tried to set up a dealer network in continental Europe. I don't think anything came out of it, because I haven't heard about it since.

GM decided to sell Cadillacs through its established dealer networks in Europe - either Saab or Opel/Vauxhall, if I recall correctly.

And I don't know if Infiniti and Lexus will necessarily succeed in Europe, as Europeans don't have the same regard for Japanese cars that North Americans do.

gagrice · March 2007

Well just maybe you are wrong. I have owned Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Lexus vehicles. They were all more trouble than the last 5 GM products I have owned. My wife switched from Mercedes to Lexus in 1990. She is ready to buy another MB or Cadillac. She does not like the direction Lexus has taken. It seems to me that all the folks buying the Japanese cars you have mentioned are interested in is how fast the car goes from 0-60. Would that not be the very rationale you have accused GM buyers of using.

punkr77 · March 2007

I think the biggest difference between the American cars and their foreign competition, and why people tend to like either one or the other, is in the way the cars feel. American cars feel big and heavy and handle that way too, the Japanese cars feel light and tight and handle that way. The German cars are kind of in between the two, with Mercedes leaning more towards the American and BMW leaning more towards the Japanese.

I've driven Accords, Camry's, and Avalons and I've driven several of their American rivals and they all fall more or less along those lines. It's kind of like a mattress, some prefer firm and some prefer soft.

I'm suprised that all the Japanese cars have been more trouble than the American cars. My experience has been the exact opposite. My 3 American cars were all much more troublesome thatn my 2 Japanes cars. My Mazda 929S and Honda Civic neither had any problems at all other than routine stuff (the Civic had all the factory parts other than belts, filters and tires at 100K). My parents both had similar experiences. Out of curiosity, how long do you keep you're cars?

As far as car advertising goes, American makes have the worst Advertising. It's all tough guy macho crap. The Hummer comercials always make me gag. Interestingly, Toyota is starting to use that tactic with it's trucks (trying to appeal to traditional American buyers maybe). Car comercials in general seemed aimed at people with a 5th grade education (and maybe 3rd for truck buyers).

poncho167 · March 2007

I agree. It's hard to believe all these people supporting Japanese companies like they were our own. Right again with the BMW comment.

punkr77 · March 2007

Call me a traitor, but I don't look at GM and the rest of Detroit like they're one of "our own" any more. Just because their headquarters are here, doesn't make me feel better about buying from them when they're building more and more cars in Mexico, Canada, and Korea out of more and more parts made in Japan, China, etc. Doubly so after my ownership experiences with the last four Detroit cars I own(ed).

GM's problems are of their own making. If, as many feel, GM is actually building better cars than Japan then people will buy them. That is unless you think the American consumer is a bunch of drooling morons, in which case we have bigger problems. It took a while for Japan to take away a huge share of the auto market, it will take a while for Detroit to get it back.

GM hasn't convinced me yet that they have indeed caught up with Japan in terms of reliability, styling, and refinement.

I feel much more guilty about shopping at Wal-Mart (which I do about once a year) thanks to their poorly paid employees and almost utter lack of US made products.

snakeweasel · March 2007

Call me a traitor,

Ok you're a traitor. :P

imidazol97 · March 2007

>American makes have the worst Advertising.

I also think the advertising is off point for new marketing. You may be looking at trucks and SUVs and that's consistent with your comments. But I think there needs to be a new slant to the car commercials. And I've seen some change.

lemko · March 2007

I feel much more guilty about shopping at Wal-Mart (which I do about once a year) thanks to their poorly paid employees and almost utter lack of US made products.

Add Circuit City to that list. They're laying off all their experienced employees in order to replace them with lower-paid new employees. Oh, those experienced folks CAN get their jobs back after 10 months at the same low rate as the newbies. Unbelievable!

imidazol97 · March 2007

> Circuit City

Thanks for the info. That will affect my purchasing. I ~~like~~liked their order online, pickup in 24 minutes plan. Have bought a few things there I could have bought at BB or Compusa.

I assume Circuit City is applying the new lower rate workers to the CEO on down? grin.

gagrice · March 2007

I went Japanese early on. My first Toyota I bought in 1964 a Land Cruiser, lots of engine problems poor copy of a Chevy 6. My last was a 1994 Toyota PU, Problems from 11k miles on, poor warranty. 1978 Honda Accord, an awful car, 2 Datsun PU trucks, 1970 was great the 1976 was a piece of crap. A 1973 Subaru that should have never left Japan.

I bought a new Chevy truck in 1988 and 4 more. They were all good up till now. I just do not care for the 2005 GMC, tinny build, sheet metal too thin. Wish I had my 1999 Suburban back. It was a GREAT vehicle. Used gas, but nothing is perfect.

That is why I am considering a 2006 Escalade. My wife wants the GL Mercedes. If I could get the diesel I would go for it. Kind of small but we could manage.

mediapusher · March 2007

Punkr77-

Is it any surprise that their Chevrolet Volt (Electric Concept Car) was all smoke and mirrors? I knew it the moment I saw the media blitz. It was just that - A MEDIA BLITZ so GM could try and improve it's fledgling reputation.

GM is notorious for this kind of pipe dream silliness.

mediapusher · March 2007

Mariner7-

Your mindset of loyalty doesn't seem to factor for people that have an education or learn from their mistakes.

It seems to me that many people in the 1980's and 90's were ready to be loyal to GM, and they still got burned BIG TIME. So finally they said, "Enough is Enough" and never looked back.

"Loyalty" only got many people financially exploited by General Motors in the not to distant past and currently.
Where does this idea of loyalty come from anyway? It's SILLY. Why be loyal to a multi-national corporation who wants us to buy "American" when they won't even buy "American"?

snakeweasel · March 2007

This has noting to do with what I said. When have I ever said anything about buying American. All I stated was that there is an anti GM/Ford bias that has no real basis in reality.

Again many people like yourself would bash anything GM made no matter how good it was and would claim that BMW or MB made better cars regardless of how crappy they were made.

62vetteefp · March 2007

Please stop this ranting!! Again we will lose this forum and it will become another read only!!!

We have gone over this crap too many times.

Lets talk about Cadillac and what it will take to regain some kind of leadership in the world and how they are doing. Not repeating and repeating the past.

lemko · March 2007

What year, make and model were these "USA nameplate" cars? What problems did you have?

lemko · March 2007

...I see Cadillac is considering a V-12 powered sedan. I love the looks based on the Sixteen, but I'd stay away from trying a V-12 at this time. They sound impressive, but I've always heard V-12s were nightmares to maintain and repair in BMWs and Mercedes. Cadillac has a great engine in the Northstar, and I'd look for them to further develop it.

bumpy · March 2007

The Benz and BMW V12s were money pits because they were rare and super complicated, not just because they had four extra cylinders. The current rumor has Cadillac doubling the existing 3.6HF V6 to make a V12, so repair and upkeep shouldn't be any worse than the HF. Other rumor has a long-overdue 5-liter "Ultra" DOHC V8 replacing the Northstar in a few years.

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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