Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
edited February 2014 in General
GM has turned around Cadillac in recent years, but will Cadillac be the standard of the world ever again... let me know what you guys think?
«134567121

Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Cadillac, is the Standard of the World with the Escalade SUV, the SRX CUV, and the EXT, is the luxury pick-up benchmark. ;)

    The 2008 CTS, very well could be the standard of the world in entry/lux segment.

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Standard of the world? Hmmm. GM has the resources to make Cadillac into that, but doesn't have the desire to do so. A "standard of the world" doesn't sell what should be Pontiacs (CTS and STS), Buicks (SRX and DTS), or GMCs (the Escalades). Start with a full-trim version of the Chinese Buick Royaum, put a modern DOHC V8 in it, and head upmarket from there.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    bumpy, what the heck is a Chinese Royaum ? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Royaum is a Buick sold only in China. Nicer than what we get - sort of a larger version of the Chinese LaCrosse.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Standard of the world? Not hardly. Standard of the domestics? I could go for that.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yeah it looks nice from the front grill. That's the only photo I saw though. Thanx for the link bumpy. ;)

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    When Cadillac won the Dewar Trophy for "standard of the world", it meant that they were using interchangable parts to make Cadillac's, while the European cars were using custom made parts for each car.

    There was only one Dewar Trophy for this category, and that Trophy is still Cadillac's. They are therefore still the "Standard of the World" and this topic should be terminated.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    When was that? 1908? Funny.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well like I said the Escalade, is the Standard of the World of SUVS. The SRX, currently is the Standard of the World of CUVs and the EXT is the Standard of the World of pick-ups. Hopefully the new CTS, will be the Standard of the World of entry/lux sedans and the next STS and DTS, become Standards of the World of their respective segments. A Big Body RWD DTS, with a 400+ hp DOHC V-8 with a upgraded interior and gadgetry would make it a "Standard of the World" candidate. The STS, needs all of the things I mentioned for the DTS, but on a slightly smaller scale and a sport tuned suspension using Delphi's new Magneride II technology that is driver selectable. It would be best to tune the STS to at least 450 hp using a V-8 along with the new 2-stage hybrid technology in a performance application like Lexus. If GM, wanted to really go after the europeans and japanese and gain a chunk of market-share they could invest some R&D dollars into a Northstar Diesel or a equivalent. :)

    Just my $0.02 on the Standard of the World chatter ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well in Trucks and SUVs they still are. The CTS, DTS, STS, are a slightly better interior, performance upgrade, RWD for the DTS, and a few gadgetology. enhancements away from being the "Standard of the World" ;) Give em' a few more years and we will be able to say those words with confidence. :shades:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well the Seville STS in the early-mid 90's was the "Standard of the World" with it's new Northstar and cutting edge design. :P

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    You aren't serious, are you? BMW and MB weren't exactly scared.

    Cutting edge? What?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    That's nice about the Escalade and the SRX, but not everyone will agree, not nearly. And the EXT, its not even its own vehicle. Standard of the world in pickups? Come on now. Highest bling, maybe, but it's not exactly practical.

    I can't go on 'hopefully' as being worth much in regards to havbing the superior product. Always talking about the next model doesn't bode well.

    Standard of the world also should mean something is marketable to every major location. I don't see that as the case right now. You mention market share...that is exactly right. The common standards right now can be sold most anywhere.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Never the less, there was only one trophy for this category. Cadillac has misused the "Standard of the World" in its advertising.

    However, the question is:
    WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION!!!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well the MB S-Class was what $80+ thousand for a 500. S-600 was like $120 or $140K, right ? So the MB, "might" of been better but not at double or triple the price. ;)

    The Northstar compared to MB motors of those days was cutting edge because it was derived from the famous german engineered LT-5 found in the ZR-1 Corvette. :P

    BMW, all they knew how to make was a 240 hp. inline-6 for its M3. A great engine in a compact sports sedan. Everthing else from BMW, was junk even though I was a fan of the 7 series styling and interior design back in those days. ;)

    Cadillac was the standard of the world for at least a few years anyways back in the early-mid 90's and if my meory serves me correct it even won the anti-gm biased Motor Trend calipers. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Uh, STS never competed with an S-class, at least not in this universe. E-class/5er competitor. At that range, the price differentials were not so huge.

    If everything else from BMW was junk, I wouldn't want to hear what everything else GM would be considered...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Seems like a technicality/semantics to me. "Standard of the World" might have an original meaning, but it has different connotations now. Just like most people in the trade consider "antique" to be 100+ years old, but don't tell me that a 1915 car is not antique.

    The point is to discuss what makes a standard of the world today, and what Caddy can do to get there.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...Cadillac was, is, and will always be the Standard of the World. I don't care how wealthy I become, I will still drive a Cadillac.

    Now, there can be different standards:

    Per styling, Cadillac definately is it. No car is prettier than a Cadillac in my eyes.

    Per quality and reliability, I'd say it is Lexus.

    Per trucks, I'd say it's the new Chevrolet Silverado.

    Per status, it's a toss-up between Mercedes and BMW.

    Per overall value, I'd say it's Buick.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well lemko, that's a pretty good break-down and I could even agree with it. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well the early-mid 90's STS was better than the E-class, IMHO.

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    In some ways, I am sure it is. Especially if one doesn't like a 6cyl engine.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well the E-class today is better than the current STS. that is hard for me to say *gulp* because I like the STS. ;)

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    For status, the Rolls Royce is it. Possibly, since BMW took over, it may even have decent engineering.

    Syling depends on what one likes, however, most luxury cars are not Azteks.

    J. D. Power has Lexus at the top of the heap. They are mostly concerned with quality and dependability.

    If the point of this discussion is:
    "what is the worlds best luxury car?"
    Then I think that the Rolls Royce, Bentley and Maybach are very good. Cadillac does not have anything in this catagory. Cadillac does not have any sedans that compare with an S-class Mercedes either, except perhaps for size. For the "best" luxury car, the standard of the world would have to be very refined, something GM does not quite grasp.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    I don't think the STS is a bad car either...and I have seen them fairly cheap at a year or two old here. It might even be a better value than the competition...but the segment isn't really about value.

    It comes down to an old GM problem - you have to keep on moving. These new models come out that are competitive, but don't seem to receive upgrades like the competition. Too often they live on for many more model years than they should.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that Cadillac's sigma platform is quite good. Where Cadillac falls short is on interior quality and general refinement. The CTS interior has a bit too much firm plastic in it I think. Not sure how it compares with a 3-series BMW though.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yeah I agree with ya fintail. It's so difficult because smaller car company's are changing designs every 4 years. I here some are going to try to get it down to every 3-years to cater to leasing customers that want the latest and greatest.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yep, the current STS missed out on GM putting the few extra bucks more on interior quality. The CTS interior spy photo's I've seen give me hope. :)

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Do not confuse styling changes with design changes. For example, the 2008 CTS will have new styling, but will still be a sigma platform design. The best that we can hope for is an improvement to the sigma design, but the basic platform design is probably not going to change a lot. But the 2008 CTS should have a lot of improvement in refinement, which can be done with some refinement in the basic sigma design.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Agree....I think the next STS, which BTW needs to come soon needs to be built on the Signma II platform. Buick needs to replace the FWD Lucerne with a RWDer. The LaCrosse needs to be more sporting and I'd go with a Velite styled grill. Then Buick, needs to use the Sigma II for a RWD hardtop convertible like that found from Volvo, with the C-70 and call it Velite. :shades:

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If Cadillac would actually build something like the Sixteen, it would easily outclass Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maybach, etc.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    lemko, I 100% agree pal. The sixteen coupe and ULS Sedan, along with the V-12 lookin' exotic they had a few years ago would push Cadillac, to new heights. Perhaps one day we will see cars like that being built at GM. :shades:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I was reading in the 07' Navigator forum of how some tried to justify why they traded in their 07' Escalade for a 07' Navigator. :confuse: I'm scratching my head and can only come up with this conclusion. They are chronic car buyers. They were trying to justify their car purchase because the Escalade didn't have power running boards. Well the Navigator, doesn't have a rear view camera, so what gives. The Navigator, also doesn't have the interior quality and materials of the Slade, either. :surprise: I guess if you want to get worse gas mileage, lose 103 hp. and not have a refined machine like the slade, then perhaps the swap can be justified by the few options the slade doesn't have for the many the Navigator doesn't have. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Maybe they dig the Navigator's groovy retro '70s instrument panel?
  • thomaswthomasw Member Posts: 34
    "Standard of the World" implies leadership and something that everyone else (i.e., the competition) aspires to equal.

    Given GM's record for the past 30+ years, I find it impossible to believe that its corporate culture is capable of conceiving of, much less producing, anything that is the "standard of the world."

    Neither the UAW - or the beancounters - would ever stand for it.

    GM aspires to mediocrity, nothing more. It is a rental car producer, in slow decline due to union expense and featherbedding coupled with short-sighted management.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    How would it outclass Rolls? The Rolls has a V12 with DOHCs, so a pushrod V16 is not better. The Rolls interior is wood and leather, while current Cadillacs tend to have lots of plastic. Rolls has a very long history of being a status symbol, and Cadillac would have to build a very fine Sixteen for decades to even begin matching the Rolls mystique. Cadillac simply does not have what it takes, the Eldorado Brougham of the late 50's would now be at the point of toppling the Rolls, and Mercedes would never have tried making something of the Maybach. But Cadillac dropped the Eldo Br when it was just getting started.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that you have it right. GM makes good middling cars and as long as they are not overpriced, they are a good buy.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >GM aspires to mediocrity, nothing more. It is a rental car producer

    Could your negative attitude have something to do with a bad experience with Saabs?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thomaswthomasw Member Posts: 34
    Actually I had a good experience with a 2000 SAAB 9-5, which was designed before GM took full control of the company.

    My terrible experience with a post-GM SAAB 2003 9-3 - an experience confirmed by Consumer Reports and others - did not create my poor opinion of GM, merely confirmed it.

    I worked for a multi-franchise car dealer from 1971-1996. Among their franchises (since the lates 1980's) was Cadillac / Oldsmobile and Chevrolet.

    What I saw was indifferent design, sloppy execution, sloppy assembly, cheesy interiors and "luck of the draw" reliability. In other words, vehicles clearly subject to beancounter final word and assembled by UAW hacks who couldn't care less, because they didn't think they had to (cheerfully oblivious as their numbers kept shrinking, their jobs being displaced by nonunion plants in the South).

    My experience with the 9-5 prompted me to take a chance, with some trepidation, on the 9-3 / Malibu / G-6.

    That experience taught me that not much has changed with GM since 1996, notwithstanding their current spin that they've "caught up" in quality.

    Any quick perusal of the black dots in Consumer Reports tells the real story ...
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Check to see if it has glass headlights.

    The 2000/2001 Saab 9-5s do. The newer ones have plastic that is shaped the same.

    Also check out the sills between the doors(the uprights/pillars) - it used to be anodized aluminum or painted steel. Now it's plastic. GM *and* Ford seem to know how to bean-counter all of the quality and ergonomics out of anything they touch. Like a big evil sponge.

    As long as there's more plastic than wood and cloth(leather seats don't count here as any maker can add them) in the interior, Cadillac doesn't get my vote. Not anymore.

    Plain and simple - plastic is cheap and NOT luxury.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The Navigator, also doesn't have the interior quality and materials of the Slade, either. I guess if you want to get worse gas mileage, lose 103 hp. and not have a refined machine like the slade, then perhaps the swap can be justified by the few options the slade doesn't have for the many the Navigator doesn't have.

    Interesting rant, Rocky, for someone who has been defending Lincoln against Cadillac on the Lincoln board.

    But anyway, I have owned both. had a 99 navigator, an 02 escalade, and then an 03 navigator. Comparing the 02 Escalade to the 03 Navigator yielded an opinion that both trucks have different strengths. My Escalade had better climate control, more responsive and accurate, horrible navigation, downright useless. A smaller second seat area, and that damn folding 3rd seat that just flipped up, taking 25% of your luggage room. I traded it for the 03 Navigator because of the beautiful unique interior, the cooled seats, the independent rear suspension which made it ride so much better, wasn't impressed with the power running boards, so didn't get them, but the power folding 3rd row seats clinched the deal. The Escalade only had more power when towing, otherwise the 6.0L engine is kind of a dog off the line, and the Navigator felt stronger, drove better, and was much more technologically advanced, and Rocky, it had the gadgets that you love. Like the power liftgate.

    GM usually catches up with Ford and the Imports eventually, and they finally made some good strides this year, which I think puts their truck on par with the Navigator. They do have the back up camera, good Navigation finally, and a more peppy engine and the interior is nice, even though it's still just like a Tahoe, whereas the Navigator is unique. But they just can't get on board with the 3rd row seats, even though Ford figured it out on their Explorer 4 years ago.

    Between the two now, I would call it an even fight.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    GL450 SUV is the real winner. GM and Ford can fight for second place. :P
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    NO.

    Ain't gonna happen again for Cadillac. They've given up way too much ground to Lexus, BMW and Mercedes. Mercedes blew Cadillac out of the water in the 80's and BMW and Lexus have do so in the 90's till now. Cadillac doesn't have a flagship sedan to compete with the S-Class or Lexus LS. Most import luxury car buyers don't even consider Cadillac as one of their choices anymore. Cadillac has some nice cars for sure, particularly the V models, but you can't be a standard of the world when you're only really hot in a few markets and/or not even #1 in your home market.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I tend to agree with Merc, on the whole.
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    I wouldn't say that, the products Caddy has right now are on the right track, with a new 3 series fighter and enhancements to the STS, GM could easily make Caddy a worldbeater.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    True their products are on the on the right track, but that is a long way from being a world beater. No one company is going to beat Lexus, BMW and Mercedes at the things they all do best, especially not a bleeding GM. They don't have the money for a flagship to really show the world anything right now. The CTS is merely a contender in a class, as is the STS, and the latter not a very good one.

    GM is notorious for chasing a moving target while at the same time not concentrating on the real details.

    M
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I was defending the Lincoln MKZ and MKS against the competition. The Navigator OTOH, is a nice SUV, like I said but it lacks elegance, refinement and isn't as good as the Escalade or GL 450. The "Old and Tired" gas guzzling 5.4 V-8 was a embarrassment engine for ford to use. It has 300 hp. but feels more like 200 hp. :surprise: The Navigator, does have a few features not found in the Escalade, but the same can be said about the Escalade vs. Navigator. The Mercedes GL 450, is no doubt a nice SUV, but even it doesn't have the interior design, quality, gadgetry the Escalade, offers to its customers. It is more of a Status SUV, and one has to click the option box several times before you get into Escalade levels in equipment. I also raise eyebrows to the Mercedes supposed 335 hp engine running Escalade 0-60 times identical to the 403 hp. Slade. I personally think the Merc test was done with a stop watch, and the guy holding the stop watched clicked the button a bit prematurely like at 50 mph or they secretly used a Chip or programmer for the the Merc. :P WHATEVER, it just doesn't add up to me and I wouldn't put it passed Motor Trends anti-gm staff. :mad:

    I also will comment on some posters cheap shots at the UAW workers. Again, as a reminder when did the UAW assume responsibility for designing or engineering of GM vehicals ??????? I'm still waiting for my answer. ;) I also take the UAW workers not caring about the building of the vehicals with the tools, machinery, given to them as a insult because my family did/do care, and did the best job they could.

    So my point is this..... Lincoln and Cadillac, are turning their brands around. The Lincoln MKZ, no doubt will be a sales success and with a bit more more that is rumored to come in a couple of years will no doubt help it out. I also think Lincoln, needs to give customers a manual transmission option for the MKZ. The Lincoln MKS concept is a beauty. If it looks like the concept and if the rumors are true that Lincoln, is exploring even more gadgets to add the the already gadget filled MKS, we could have a benchmark if Lincoln adds that 3.7 Twin Turbo with over 350+ hp. It might not be as great as lets say a Lexus LS, or a Audi A8, in some peoples eyes but it will win plenty of consumers because it will offer the customer a premium value. The value concept started by Acura, has made that brand a winner. Acura, made a blunder by not giving the RL, competitive performance and did leave the 6-speed automatic and ventilated seats out of the equation.

    Cadillac, has a chance to not only topple what the MKZ, does well with the CTS, but they have a chance to pass by BMW's 335i. If I was GM, I'd take the Direct Injection 3.6 High Feature V-6 and add two turbo's to it. They already have made this engine and tested it in the Velite. The BMW 335i run 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. I'd make sure the CTS, does it in 4.7-4.8 range and pulls a .90 minimum on the skid pad. If GM, has to charge BMW 335i prices on a fully optioned CTS, to be the new benchmark then that is what they need to shoot for. The 2008' from what we've seen appears to have a much better interior. It now just needs the gadgets like ventilated seats, Mega-Watt DVD-Audio, voice recognition system w/ Navi, and perhaps a pre-collision, adaptive cruise, etc etc etc.

    The next STS, flat out needs a better quality interior and about 80 more horsepower. It also could use some more gadgets if they want to charge $60+K large ones.

    The DTS, needs RWD and needs to be in long wheel-base trim only. It needs to be a big-body and give the customer bigger than Mercedes S-class interior volume with reclining rear seats with heat, massage, ventilation. It also needs some more gadgetry and should chase Mercedes, Lexus big sedans.

    The SRX, is finally getting some much needed upgrades. It needs a shot of steroids, some more gadgetry, and it will blow the MKX, away in sales.

    The XLR, needs to be overhauled and GM, needs to take the Mercedes SL, and make the XLR, exceed every area of advantage the SL, has over it or otherwise they might as well scrap this idea. How bout adding a 6-speed manual option or F-1 inspired Paddle shifters with 500-600 horsepower ? The XLR, also needs to tone down those sharp edges since its more likely a conservative buyer will be cross shopping it with the SL.

    Rocky

    P.S. NV, you know you bought the Navigator, because of the power running boards. Well thats the conclusion I got when reading about the 07' Navigator, and the former owners trading down from a Slade to a Gator. :P Oops, as lemko, said it might of been this years case was the consumers wanted those retro instrument gauges. :confuse:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Consumers NOT Reported, is more like it.....

    Isn't the bible that some of you consumers think it is. Whatever, we won't kick this dead horse again. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL, whatever :P .....You know you'd rather be driving a Slade. At least you wouldn't have to worry about being stranded along side of the road yelling for help in a Escalade !!! :D

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    sls, What ?????

    Rolls Royce with their wimpy gas hawging V-12. Why buy a Rolls, when a Bently is the same thing only a bit better ?

    The Cadillac Sixteen would be the greatest 1,000 hp/1,000lbs tq. car ever made and could be driven as a daily driver unlike the Bugatti, which needs maintence every other day at Ten$ of thousand$ a pop. :P

    I'm with lemko, it would out class everything and would be "The Standard Of The Universe". :shades:

    Rocky
Sign In or Register to comment.