Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Why dont we compare it to a more down to earth world class brands like Mercedes and BMW? Theyre both world standards too, in case anyone forgets
This one is a bit more topical than Toyota/Subaru:
"It's no secret among those who follow the auto industry that the products that are currently coming out of Detroit, and/or about to come out of Detroit, are among the best vehicles in their respective market segments."
But there's that whole perception thing....
Detroit's tough uphill 'perception' battle suffers another hit (Straightline)
I'd rather by a 135I GM (think Malibu SS) than a Cobalt (or a CTS) that gets 30 MPG. You can raise the price if the quality is there.
Regards,
OW
I would have loved that car with a 425/425 V-8. Tune the suspension and you could have charged $40K back then! Waiting lists would have developed. The car rode fantastic.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
it just reinforces that decades-old perception that Detroit just doesn't get it--and never will get it...
Say what you will but I have a whole different feeing walking through a BMW dealer than a Caddy dealer. There is some real performing and luxurious steel on those floors.
I know you can e-buy a car these days faster than buying a $5 gallon of milk but you can't replace the feeling of touching a fine automobile.
GM doesn't have that anymore. Except with the Corvette! It's the only car brand that has been developed successfully from the last century by "The Biggest Car Company of ALL Time". :confuse:
Regards,
OW
Probably not with the 535i. The weight difference alone out classes the STS with respect to handling performance and the resale value crushes the STS. At the end of ownership, price difference is nil.
Just MHO.
Regards,
OW
The last time I saw an STS interior, which I admit was on an early model, I wasn't impressed, either. It seemed kind of plain, but not in that "hard luxury" old Germany way.
From the article: "They are certainly the best vehicles Detroit has ever built.
Yet--as we all know--Detroit automakers have been fighting tough battle of "perception." Despite the overall goodness of what they are now selling, they have been battling a decades-old image problem of building crummy cars and trucks. Hey, this this a problem they created; no question about it."
That is also the catch phrase "...best vehicles Detroit has ever built"...it was what was built over the last decades that causes skepticism of their products...the "image problem" of building crummy cars has been well earned...sure, some of the posters have kept their Big 3 creampuffs for decades, over 200K miles, and I am happy for you...
But I believe it is undeniable that many folks, over the years, have been burned by a Big 3 car and have sought their transportation elsewhere and have apparently been happier with the import...
Honda and Toy did not grow by accident, or people putting guns to the buyers to force them to buy Accords and Camrys...they grew because the buyers did not believe that American carmakers either built the right product or built the right product but poorly...
Blame the union, blame GM management (V8-6-4???), blame no-caring dealers, but American buyers have deserted Big 3 products in droves, and they MUST have a reason, I doubt it was by reading Tarot cards...
GM and Ford have a serious image problem, and the image is one of poor quality...they earned it and now must convince buyers that their product is not just competitive, but better...
To tell me you are as good as Honda means Honda must be a good standard...whether I believe you or not is another story...
I am one of those "Yuppies" (age designation) that, while I own Big 3 cars, still believe thatthey do not compare to my Hondas...
I would LOVE to post here and tell you that the new Ford or Buick or Caddy I will buy "blew away my Hondas in quality"...
I may not be a fan of the union (to put it mildly) but I want American cars to win...the big question is, do the American carmakers want to win on better quality or just snow us with an ad campaign that says "Buy American"...they must earn the business and I hope they do...
The facts are that the Japanese knew that American's viewed Japanese products as "carnival trinkets". So Honda, Toyota and Nissan knew that to be successful they would have to build the best cars possible and make them reliable. What really made them successful was the oil crisis in the early 70's. I really can't understand your obsession with the 8-6-4 engine which really was not significant in the big picture. The 4100 was a much bigger problem which you seem not to have any understanding of at all.
DETROIT - Toyota beat General Motors in worldwide sales in the first half of the year.
Toyota Motor Corp. said Wednesday it sold 4.8 million vehicles between January and June, up 2 percent from the same period a year ago. General Motors Corp. says it sold 4.5 million vehicles in the same period, or about 300,000 less than Toyota.
Not in sales anymore. Link below. The slide is only to grow.
link title
Regards,
OW
and never again.
Regards,
OW
Never heard of the original V6, what exactly is an original V6?
You have a valid point on the Vega engine. However, the Vega is not the whole of GM. The problem there was the aluminum used in the engine.
The problems you are ranting about seem to be from the 70's and early 80's, about 30 years ago. What about Toyota's sludge problems? What about the 4 cylinder engines that Honda built that need new heads after warranty is over (my brother had one - $3000+ to fix).
No, they are no where near becoming the standard again.....not at this time.
I wonder why anyone would want to compete with these! Please!
Regards,
OW
I am not ignoring Toy sludge or Honda 4s...but the simple fact is that Toy and Hon have not had as many lemons or poorly designed products as our makers do...I would never call Toy/Hon perfect but, as I listen to people over the years, many more people have been burned by a Big 3 product than Toy or Hon...I believe that more folks have abandoned Big 3 and moved over to Toy/Hon than the other way around, and I believe that it is because we were force-fed a lot of junk from the Big 3 that COULD have, and SHOULD have been a product with more quality...but they thought they were invincible, and did not care, and never saw the imports as real competition, that is, until we started buying them in droves...
Big 3 have a lot of convincing to do to make many of us come back...now that the imports have a rep for quality, the Big 3 have become on the defensive...now you must SHOW the buyer why your product is as good as the imports, which means you had better be good, or the buyer will leave and NEVER come back...they may be openminded now and give you a look, but if GM/Ford do not equal the supposed rep for quality of the imports, they will soon be history, or at least a lot smaller...
Years ago, KMart was the big boy and Walmart was an upstart...now it is different...Kmarts are here and there, and Walmart is EVERYWHERE...GM and Ford may become the size that Toy and Hon were in the 80s and 90s, as their products are in lesser demand over time...
Sorry if I misinterpret you, but I am not obsessed...I DO pay attention to the junk they sold us in the 70s and 80s, even tho it was some time ago, because that rep for junk, IMO, truly followed them into the 90s and possibly into the millenium, meaning that what they did to Americans twenty-plus years ago has a strong influence on what is happening to them now...of course, YMMV...
Ironically, I ended up with one of those FWD V-6 cars, (1988 Buick Park Avenue) and they're really not as bad as I thought they were 20 years ago. They're extremely reliable, quite durable, and deliver great fuel economy.
The V6 you might be referring to is the 3800? The engine that started out as an aluminum V8 and became an iron V6, sold to Jeep and bought back from American Motors? Again do you really know anything?
I am certainly failing to remember the years of the poorly designed V6s, but my Dad was in the auto parts business at the time, and he was telling me about all the design defects that should have been found by a 1st year engineering student, yet GM was selling cars that had serious engine defects, from simply a metallurgical standpoint...since Dad is no longer with us, I cannot verify with him...
I will certainly agree that the big three's quality before 1990 was not as good as the Japanese imports. However, quality and reliability are two different things. The big three really started to improve quality after the 80's, and J. D. Power helped them to understand the problems that they had.
GM has had a number of V6 engines. If your dad was an engineer and really qualified to design engines, why was he working in an auto parts store? On the other hand, the Buick V6 (or 3800) was a quick and dirt solution to an engine need in the early 60's. It was not a particularly well engineered V6, and was sold off to Jeep when Buick was able to replace it with better engines. In the late 70's some idiot decided that it was a quick way again to get a more fuel efficient engine into production. They did re-engineer the design a number of times to get it to the present day.
Your Dad could have been talking about one of the truck engines too...
You did say some posts back that "most of GM's vehicles were junk". If most were junk in the 70's and 80's, then by the mid 90's most of GM's customers would have been gone, leaving the company in bankruptcy. Since GM is not in bankruptcy, and is still selling more cars in the US than anyone else, I think your perception of how bad GM has been in the past is completely overblown. I think that a lot of the problems people have with their cars is a result of poor mantinence which is entirely due to the owner.
Not my experience. Ford and Chevy rushed the Pinto and Vega to market. The Pintos were exploding and the Vegas looked nice, drove nice, rusted fast, and engines died very early. If those cars had been competitive then perhaps the reputation for junk would not have been as pronounced.
I will certainly agree that the big three's quality before 1990 was not as good as the Japanese imports.
So it wasn't the big 3's quality problems, yet the Japanese imports had better quality before 1990? Which side of the argument are you trying to promote?
If your dad was an engineer and really qualified to design engines, why was he working in an auto parts store?
If we all have to be working at the manufacturers' to be qualified to have knowledge, then perhaps we don't need these forums, as we don't all work for GM and Ford?!!!!! :P
Let's put it this way, nothing exciting.
Regards,
OW
I know from long term experience that GM truly makes fine automobiles. You let others make a prejudiced opinion for you. I just had my new Cadillac DTS Performance on a long driving vacation and the car performed admirably. I couldn't be happier with my purchase. I was also surprised at the great fuel economy! I guess it's getting better as the cars getting broke-in. Heck, my girlfriend speaks of her Buick LaCrosse as if it were some high-end luxury car like an E-Class Mercedes or a Lexus LS. Here's one young girl who will make a Buick her next car.
The imports also aren't all that. I hear a lot of people complain that their newer Hondas and Toyotas aren't as good as previous ones both in appearance and quality. I have a co-worker who likes Hondas so much that he should write copy for their ads, yet he is turned-off at their new direction and actually told me he was considering a Buick as his next car! I certainly don't care for Lexus' new styling direction. I liked it a lot better when they aped the last generation S-Class Mercedes. The LS new look is blandness personified.
I appreciate your preferences and respect your choices.
I can not get excited about the current choice GM produces. The ones I referenced not included but the CTS has competition that will limit it's success unless expectations are exceeded each year. Corvette has no competition either in the price range except GT-R. I still am put back by the sedan but the coupe concept widened my eyes. Now, that's what I'm talking about. No GM has that persona outside of the Corvette.
Since this is a Caddy blog, I can tell you that none of their current cars strike me as a must have. Period. When the coupe becomes reality, I show up early at the dealer!
I applaud your exuberance in every case. You need to keep the pressure on GM to improve and stay cautious of complete commitment, IMHO. If you truly know more, you know that.
Regards,
OW
We were talking about the American cars and their reputations established before the 1990's, I don't think Toyota had sludge problems in those days.
And it's not like GM had - "well, the Vega was a lemon with sludge, but every other car of theirs is high quality, highly reliable, and people are just flocking to GM for the past 30 years because of such excellent engineering." People cite Toyota sludge or Honda transmissions, but frankly, those are the only significant two problems people have heard of with Honda/Toyota, the problems weren't that bad, and those Japanese companies quickly rectified the problems. Not true with Ford/GM/Chrysler. It's a pretty weak argument.
MODERATOR
Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review
Cadillac would have to dominate the world luxury market (like Cadillac dominated the US market in the 50's and 60's) and GM would also have to dominate the world market (with at least 40% of the world market). I don't see any manufacturer doing this in the near future. For Toyota (and Lexus) to do this would probably mean there would be only 3 major manufacturers left with the other two nearly bankrupt.
BMW is the Ultimate Driving Machine...for whom, really? Yuppies?
Or Lincoln: What a Luxury Car Should Be - in my opinion it's a Cadillac.
Perhaps Lexus' Relentless Pursuit of Perfection - yeah, make the car bland enough that it won't offend anybody.
Rolls-Royce has described itself as "The Best Automobile in the World!" Heck, lately I find my hooptie '88 Buick Park Ave as the best car for my purposes.
Porsche - There is no Substitute - uh, what about Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, etc.
And the list goes on and on...