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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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    tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Why GM can't build something like 335i, G35/37.

    Here are the kinds of "driver's cars" that appeal to me (in approximate ascending price":

    Honda Civic
    Mazda 3
    VW Jetta
    Acura TSX (especially previous model)
    G35/37
    A4
    C-series
    3-series

    Where are the US nameplate options for ANY of these? A huge market of high profit vehicles - refined and of quality. NOT Cobalts or G3s. GM and Caddy - here is a big opportunity - why can't you do this?
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    kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Of those you list, I'd be most likely to go for a G37X. I think it's lower cost and more powerful, and in my view much nicer styling than a CTS.

    For Cadillac to succeed I think they need the combination of being 10% better than the competition's models at a 5-10% lower price.

    If I were Cadillac I'd also stop scaring customers away with the high MSRP, and then letting the dealers tell about the rebates and the reduced prices. Cadillac should put on their sticker the low, low price to start with. Stop scaring away the customers in the first place!
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    jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    I can come back to you in 157,000+ miles with my 1989 Cadillac Brougham and talk to you - and this is supposedly a Cadillac from the dark ages of the 1980s.

    And you've also admitted that the Caddies from the 80s can't hold a candle to the Caddies from the 50s & 60s when it comes to style & cachet. You've made it crystal clear that you would swap your '89 for a '69 in a nanosecond.

    There's a good reason why we think of the 80s as a dark age for Cadillac. It was during that time that the premium German brands punched Cadillac's lights out & seized the heart of the luxury market. By the end of that decade, Lexus, which was then preparing to enter the U.S. luxury market, was focused exclusively on the Germans. It didn't even consider Cadillac to be a serious rival. Ouch!

    Twenty years later, Cadillac still hasn't recovered.
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    caddilist we believe your experience is true, but what's the experience for most GM customers? Perhaps because of GM's WILD CARD ways of quality, customers got shafted with too many LEMONS!

    In addition, I have a problem with General Motor's lack of innovation (compare the Toyota Prius with any of GM's hybrids) and inability to compete. Too many of their cars lack refinement as well. Some of them have caught up, but why did it take 35 years ?
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    tlong, you know the sad thing about this, is the Cadillac BLS's interior has always been SPOT ON,because it's basically a cosmetically engineered SAAB. Stateside we had to wait till 2009 to get decent interior in a Cadillac.

    It kind of makes me believe that GM just gave up on competing in the U.S.A. and decided it was good as a test track and that's it, because they had or have continued success in other countries.
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    ingvar the reason GM can't and won't build something like the German and Asian competitor models that you mentioned is due to the following reasons.

    1. GM is not run by car enthusiasts, it's run by financiers, with the exception of the CTS and new Camaro. And you see how nice those cars are.

    2. IT would cost GM more money that what the cars could sell for new, to make cars like what you mentioned. That's why they have Chevrolet Aveos and Cobalts, etc. They bring those cars into the market to try and compete. They don't even make those cars. They're cosmetically engineered cars made in Korea.

    They did try what you mentioned. It was called the Cadillac Catera. It was a cosmetically engineered German Opel. A decent car in Germany, but once GM got their hands on it, they ruined it.

    The CTS turned out to be a success, but it was a huge gamble and cost an unbelievable amount of money to produce and market, and also required GM to release more power to designers, assembly line people and engineers; the big wigs that sit behind their mahogany desks and get chauffeured around, didn't have as much say so for the CTS project.. That's how the CTS got built. It was born from the minds of car enthusiasts instead. That's what we need.

    People that drive the kind of cars that you and I like, are car enthusiasts. Floaty "boats" don't do it for us. Floaty boats used to be a huge market for GM, but the generation changed and they were not ready for it. On top of that, they were unable to change, because their business infrastructure made it near impossible
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    GOOD GRIEF IS CORRECT, IN CAPITAL LETTERS AND FLASHING LIGHTS
    _________________________________________

    caddilist wrote :
    "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!plus iam a millionaire
    and love cadillacs!! i might be the avenging angel for GM!!!pick on yugo or
    dawoo NOT! cadillac....
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    What competition? That's the biggest laugh of the century.

    And I don't know about you, but I do my homework before I buy a car. I don't buy them just based on style.
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    kernick, GM thinks their Cadillacs are worth what they want for sticker price, that's why they try and charge that much. Anyone else smell delusion?
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I didn't state "in Lemo'sBook"....just a global view! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Drive a CTS and then a 335i. You think you left half the football team behind in the 3'er...particularly in the twisties! :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
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    jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    Good post. The CTS is a nice car, but not competitive enough against its German and Japanese rivals. It has potential, but GM hasn't capitalized on it. I started to give it a chance when I was considering the A4 and the Lexus IS, but at the same price point, the Caddy just wasn't as good a car. GM is trying, but not hard enough. Sadly the CTS is the only American car that's even close to competing and even it falls short.
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Why?? Because they will never get it.

    They will always end up second-tier at best. The Camaro rated only 4 stars in the frontal offset crash test.

    I'm afraid we will wait a long, long time before their cars are acclaimed as the best in the world....

    Regards,
    OW
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Bankruptcy doesn't exist in Lemko's book. Ha! ;)

    Regards,
    OW
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    plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Why?? Because they will never get it.

    They will always end up second-tier at best. The Camaro rated only 4 stars in the frontal offset crash test.

    ****
    Yet, Hyundai certainly isn't Honda or Toyota, either. Nearly as good and inexpensive is a great combination in a depressed market.

    Oh - GM's officially on record recently as stating that the next gen CTS will be slightly larger and the upcoming small model(no name yet) will be smaller - 3 series sized.
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    jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    I don't know why Lemko brings up the subject of his '89 Brougham. He's all but admitted that it's the automotive equivalent of a La-Z-Boy recliner.

    If the strongest claim that he can make for this car is that it's been comparatively trouble-free, then he's pretty much thrown in the towel & conceded that it just doesn't have any style & isn't a top-tier luxury car.

    Then again, it's a Caddy from the 80s. Who would expect otherwise?
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    Circlew-

    But why is it that GM will never get it? Is it as simple as saying.."Because starfruit is starfruit and coconuts are coconuts (no pun intended)?
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    Dude, your '89 Brougham and DTS can be compared to living rooms on wheels. Those types of cars will never help a car manufacturing/ rebadging corp. become standard of the world. I mean let's get realhere. There is no Cadillac that has ever had the prestige of a Rolls Royce. And all Rolls Royce makes is "living rooms" on wheels
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    "GM and their lack of strategy should have put out a quality 3-series type car rather than the typical muscle machine Camaro that is likely going to be a flash in the pan."

    tlong- The reintroduction of the Dodge Challenger and Chevrolet Camaro proves to me that American car companies don't know how to think forward. Those cars look strikingly similar to their 1960's/70's models and SCREAM of the all style and no substance mentality that has sunk GM to the depths that it is now.

    A similar thing was done with the Ford Thunderbird and PT Cruisers a while ago. Those were definitely flashes in the pan, so you could be right about the new Camaro.
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I have hoped they would understand what they did back in the 50/60's. The cars back then were great.

    Can they become great again? 50% market share??

    When the cars become great again. Better than Toyota/Lexus, Mercedes/BMW/Audi, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti....not almost as good....in ALL categories.

    I agree the G37X is a completely better car AND value than the CTS. I would also choose a BMW or Audi.

    My parents had Caddies and they were NOT world standards. Period. The End.

    Now that we know they will continue to use platforms from GMC, Buick and Chevy, it's a no-brainer that quick ascent to best in class in not in the cards. Their competition has a way better formula to deliver better products. Hyundai has the best marketing campaign that will grow market share (read:customer loyalty) faster than all others, afaic. GM keeps letting the opportunities rot on the ground! Have they learned?

    Remind me of how they will get back all the lost, previous loyal customers. I just do not see it.

    Regards,
    OW
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    circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Actually, the biggest problem with the Camaro (besides the 4 out of 5 star front crash rating) is the timing. The market conditions a few years back would have been more profitable....for a company that doesn't burn cash like a rocket going to Jupiter, that is!

    Then the initial release was fraught with many problems...typical GM. Where is the quality control?

    68 Nits That Should Not Exist

    First Recall

    Owners Forum

    Now, that's the GM I know and LOVE!! :lemon:

    Regards,
    OW
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    nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    PT Cruiser a "Flash in the pan"???? Over a million sold...
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    So they sold a million. Where is the brand recognition and reputation now?

    I see NONE of those PT Cruiser cars( well they're not really cars, they're vans) in my neighborhood now and I used to see many.
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    tlong-

    You should give specifics as to what swayed you to buy a European or Asian competitor car as opposed to the CTS. That would be interesting to know.
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    I don't understand the DTS either. Why would someone choose the DTS over the STS?

    The DTS is a lingering dinosaur idea that reminds me of former Oldsmobile buyers and the 1970's Buick Electra 225
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    It's also babied and spends it's life on the concourse. Shoot, I'd like to keep my S2000 for 30 years too but I'm not going to put it in a garage and let it sit until the next Auto show :shades:

    Everyone has their preference. Big, soft, suchy luxoliners have their fans too ;)
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Neither do I. I've been extremely happy with my Buick and Cadillac automobiles over the years. I'm extremely picky about my cars. A burned-out bulb will drive me bananas. I'm certainly not going to stand for major mechanical or electrical/electronic maladies.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    They're worth all that and more! I'd pay a PREMIUM for a Cadillac over any Benz, Bimmer, or Lexus.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Bankruptcy doesn't exist in my book because I'll avoid it by not having to imperil my finacial well-being trying to keep some tempermental Teutonic tank roadworthy.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Once one has a Cadillac, there is nowhere else to go. You have already reached the automotive peak. It isn't a top-tier luxury car. It is THE top-tier luxury car. This car has far more style than anything built today. Today's cars all look alike with maybe a different grille or some tweaks to the taillamps and headlamps. Today's automotive stylists can't find a unique distinctive design with both hands and a flashlight.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Once I have a Cadillac...

    fixed :P
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Did you ever see what a Rolls-Royce Phantom looks like? Sure, it's made of the best materials on earth, but it looks like a Kenworth truck! Sheesh, Rolls-Royce used to make attractive cars at one time even if they weren't the most reliable. Both my Cadillac, ( and my '05 Grand Marquis) are prettier than the current Rolls. Buying a current Rolls-Royce would be like marrying the richest woman in the world. She's incredibly wealthy, but so ugly you'd have to drink the whole Jack Daniels distillery to get with her.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You obviously never had a Cadillac. I have my '07 DTS almost three years and have yet to experience an unscheduled maintenance event. My brother-in-law's Mercedes S430 has been nothing but one mechanical or electronic crisis after another. He should give that horse the sodium-silicate hot shot.
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    marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I appreciate your loyalty, as you have obviously been blessed with well-made cars...

    If millions of others had the same experience, we would not know the names Honda and Toyota, but, like it or not, your expereicne is more unique that even you want to admit...

    People did not simply leave Caddy and Lincoln...the automakers worked hard and pushed them away with bad product...millions of Lexus/Infinit/MB/BMW owners can attest to this...

    If all the Caddies were made like yours, GM would be profitable...your experience, sadly, changes no one's opinion, because more folks have been burned by the Big 3 than have been happy with them, market share and Bankruptcy seem to prove that fairly convincingly...

    lemko, feel free to sing your praises, but you are singing quietly in the middle of a tornado, and no one can hear you...those that can hear you simply do not listen...
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Yeah, but you don't really drive a rolls, you get driven around in them :) Same with Maybachs, Bentleys, etc...
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Only the chauffeur would know how good they really are, and I'm sure any smart chauffeur isn't going to tell his boss that the Maybach or Rolls on which his boss spent several hundred thousand dollars is a POS.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Great, but reliability is a small piece of the puzzle. My dad just dumped his 2004 Grand Prix with 208 thousand on it. Reliable? Hell yeah! But hardly a car you would to actually enjoy driving. It's a front drive, 4 speed slushbox, nose heavy pig that (when it's not squeeling it's tires on acceleration because of GM's jumpy throttles) will squeel it's tires taking offramps at anything over the maximum posted limits. It has park benches for seats and the most advanced technology on board is a 2 bit graphics display for oil temp and current time. Yawn with a capital Y.

    And you are comparing it to one data point. My wife and her business partner have had numerous Benzes over the years and neither can claim the horror stories your BIL seems to have. He still has one of the very first CLS500's to roll off the assembly line. It currently has over 180 thousand miles on it. Nope, that is NOT a typo, it really has that many miles. Not a squeek, rattle, or hiccup to be found. Couple of little things over that time, but Mercs reputation is just as strong as ever in his eyes.

    And right back at ya, ever owned one? ;)
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Considered a 1989 Mercedes-Benz 560 SEL in the really nice shade of medium-dark green metallic, (what was the proper name for this color? Fintail?) . The W126 generation was probably the last time M-B made a truly solid car. This was a time when they could build the best car in the world with no thought of the costs. Lexus screwed that all up for them. Still, the 560 SEL felt rather uncomfortable compared to the Cadillac Brougham. The seats felt as hard as a park bench and the ride was rather harsh compared to the Caddy.

    Years later, I was going to buy a 1986 Mercedes 420 SEL. It needed some work and I changed my mind because I know the way I am about my cars. I'd have sunk a ton of money into it to get it up to my standards that I'd never recover.
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    anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    How many miles do you have on your baby? The national average is somewhere in the 15 - 20k/year range so you must be up to what 40k?

    I bought my little Subaru Impreza in February of 2007 and it currently has 43 thousand miles on it. Drives like brand new, haven't had a single problem with it. :shades:
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You guys must live pretty far from work and everywhere else. I only have about 9,800 miles on my DTS. I live in the city and I'm only 10 minutes from my job if I drive. I can walk there in 45 minutes on a nice day. I drove a 1988 Buick Park Avenue and currently a 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis most days. The DTS is far too nice a car to daily subject it to the abuse of Philadelphia driving. I'd have driven it a lot more if not for the crappy weather we've had this summer. The car is black and it's an extreme PITA to clean every time.

    Now, when I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, I had a job way out in the suburbs, so I was "reverse-commuting" 24 miles one way and put the miles on pretty quickly. I put 36,000+ miles on my Brougham the first three years I owned it.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    All W126 colors

    It might have been hard-seated, but it could demolish any period Caddy on the track :shades:

    Impossible car to restore, to buy a beater and fix it up is like renovating the house on the movie "The Money Pit"
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    tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    tlong-

    You should give specifics as to what swayed you to buy a European or Asian competitor car as opposed to the CTS. That would be interesting to know.

    OK, I'll bite:

    I don't like big cars. I don't necessarily need a lot of power, but I do need the following:

    0 - not a huge vehicle
    1 - agility
    2 - engine refinement
    3 - sharp steering
    4 - good handling
    5 - a quality interior
    6 - reliability

    The vehicles I mentioned (Civic, Mazda 3, TSX, Jetta, A4, 3-series, C-class) all have most of those to varying degrees. I don't see any US nameplates that even come close. A car doesn't need ALL of those factors but it needs to have MOST of those factors. If it is great in most areas then one area can slip a bit. For example, I had an Audi A4 and even though it was expensive to repair and only moderate in reliability, its interior was so awesome and its driving refinement was so excellent that it made up for it.

    For example, I have always liked the looks of the PT Cruiser. I finally got one as a rental. After driving an A4, the interior of the PT looked like crap and the driving dynamics were very unrefined. Too bad, as the PT could have been excellent -- but wasn't.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Those closest color is that Malachitgrun Metallic which I think translates to Machine Green. Sounds familiar.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    Yeah I think I remember that color name from back in the day too. I had a 1989 S-class brochure, but I gave it to the buyer of my old W126..
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Cadillac will replace the current DTS and STS models with a single flagship based on the Epsilon II platform used for the 2010 Buick LaCrosse"

    Upcoming Cadillac Flagship Will Share FWD Platform With Buick LaCrosse (Inside Line)

    image
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    I'm afraid your thinking is very 1940's and 50's . The world has moved on dude.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,169
    I saw a new STS yesterday. Carriage top, whitewalls, chrome wheels, the whole 9 yards. Any dealer who sells this stuff should lose their franchise.
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    alain_changeralain_changer Member Posts: 25
    Thanks for making that list, that leads me to believe that GM was able to capitalize on those customers who wanted flashiness at a reasonable price, and for some reason reliability wasn't a concern. But for a long time they never had either, reliability or good interiors, so I don't know how they were able to compete.
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    lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I most certainly agree. This self-destructive add-on junk should be banned.
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    carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,498
    I saw a new STS yesterday. Carriage top, whitewalls, chrome wheels, the whole 9 yards. Any dealer who sells this stuff should lose their franchise.

    From a business stand point it makes sense. It appeals to many geezers who like that look, and they charge a premium for it.
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