Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

1115116117119121

Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The STS, as it is, is too small for my tastes, looks too much like the lesser CTS, and is more expensive than the DTS if one desires a V-8. I purchased the DTS instead. Believe me, it is no "floaty ocean liner." It handles extremely well and feels as solid as a M1 Abrams tank.

    As for GM not attracting younger buyers, I was only 24 when I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham. I bought my DTS two years ago when I was 42. My girlfriend was 37 when she bought a new 2005 Buick LaCrosse.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Wow. Makes me want to buy a Cobalt coupe and try that with the Brembos. Given enough funds, I could make a Cobalt into a pretty hot car. If you could combine the Cobalt coupe's looks with the interior of a VW Jetta GLI, you'd have people busting down the doors at the Chevrolet dealer to buy one.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The customer is always right. If the Cadillac customer wants/demands a padded top, the dealer is happy to oblige. Would be the same if a buyer of sporty car would demand a clear or padded bra. The dealer would oblige and provide and take piece of action/profit.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    When the bad taste of the customer is doing endless damage to the brand equity of a firm trying to emerge from irrelevance, the customer is not always right, and the dealer should not help him. If people want the pimp look, they should find it on their own. Short term thinking wins, and the brand suffers. American pseudo-capitalism seldom has a comprehension of longterm consequences.

    Padded (car) bras are so 1985 ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Well, if it is not ‘rocket science’, then many car manufacturers must surely be selling large volumes of such vehicles in this country today.

    For example???


    Well, the brilliant car manufacturers have not developed it yet. Too greedy, afaic. The technology is there. No reason a 3-series should weigh 3,600 lbs and a G-8 GT almost 4K lbs. You can throw regulations at me and every excuse. The holy grail is withing reach to make an exceptional car that delivers everything you would need without the excesses that add weight. They really need to use the develpment of the Corvette as an example.

    Imagine a C-6 with a blown 4-banger and weighing 2,900 lbs without changing anything but the engine. Not as much HP/torque but a bleedingly beautiful ride that gets well into the 30 MPG. range combined FE.

    Regards,
    OW
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    “No reason a 3-series should weigh 3,600 lbs and a G-8 GT almost 4K lbs. You can throw regulations at me and every excuse.”

    “No reason”?
    Well, clearly you can reject regulations [ etc ] as excuses.
    [ I’d bet every car manufacturer would also like to reject \ ignore all regulatory requirements, as well. ]

    I believe that in addition to regulatory issues, customers have come to expect a significantly higher level of content [ amenities = more weight ] and chassis \ body strength & stiffness [ = more weight, again ] . . . for 2 examples.

    One ** COULD ** add these things without adding weight, I’m sure – but there would be non-trivial increases in development & materials costs to accomplish this.

    RE: Corvette:
    I had a current model \ C6 Corvette Coupe for 2+ years.
    In addition to extensive research & monitoring 2 Corvette Forums for over a year prior to my purchase, I studied most every detail of it very thoroughly – inside & out.

    2 conclusions that I think apply here are:
    First - A blown 4-banger in a Corvette would be an absolute sales disaster.

    Second - The Corvette ‘pays a price’ for being as light as it is.
    A price that makes sense to me, in a [ relatively ] low volume Sports Car – selling at a [ relatively ] high price.
    The chassis & suspension of the Corvette, in particular, are intricately & beautifully designed & executed – as well as using lighter weight materials.

    Duplicating a chassis like this for a 4DR sedan in your desired price range seems highly unlikely, to me.

    Even with [ low ] weight as a very high priority, adding even +2 seating – and also producing a car that most would consider ‘rather quick’, with EPA combined 30 MPG, seems to result in something like the upcoming Lotus Evore. Looks like it will weigh just over 3000 LBS, but it is expected to cost something like $75,000. And those back seats still don’t really sound very appealing for full sized adults.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=8092&page_numbe- - - - r=2

    Your statements sound to me much like The Way To Lose Weight.
    Eat less & exercise more.

    Since one can state The Answer in one short & simple sentence, that means that The Doing must surely be simple & easy to accomplish.

    And simply reject any reasons or excuses.

    The statement is true.
    But, for many, many people the Doing is clearly difficult indeed.

    If it really was simple & easy to lose weight, we would not have nearly as many overweight people in the U.S. of A.

    And if it was simple & easy as you describe to produce the cars your describe, I think they’d be on the market & selling well.

    “too greedy”?
    Seems to me that greed would result in driving the development of cars that would sell, at good margin.

    I’d expect that a car as you describe WOULD sell – so wouldn’t greed dictate that they’d be building & selling ‘em???

    - Ray
    Confused . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Remember, greed is what makes capitalism work but it's not necessarily good. Think of the advancement if all companies created products that were priced moderately but were the best products in the world. We would all be better off and not need big bucks to retain a certain "standard" of living.

    I understand the complexity of designing and building a "perfect sedan". (The 3-series is real close, imho.) I know it's not simple but with the current tech., it's well within achievable...if an auto company REALLY wanted to...or they can use every excuse in the book to justify status-quo thinking. It's not only about loosing weight simplistically but rather creatively by effective design and use of new materials that achieve the desired results.

    I would take a SC 4-cylinder Corvette with 4 doors in a heartbeat! (No pun intended, Heartbeat of America :blush: ). The marketing would be perfect...Z06 for Macho Man and C-6-4 for the Thinking Man...or a Lotus!

    Regards,
    OW
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    As for GM not attracting younger buyers, I was only 24 when I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham. I bought my DTS two years ago when I was 42. My girlfriend was 37 when she bought a new 2005 Buick LaCrosse.

    You really need to marry that girl!
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Sorry, lemko, you ARE the last remaining Caddy buyer who bought his first at 24...please give it up...your beloved Cadillac Motor Cars is going down, along with Oldsmobile... :P ;) :P
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    The customer is always right. If the Cadillac customer wants/demands a padded top, the dealer is happy to oblige.

    But if Cadillac expects to have any credibility as a luxury brand, it simply has to win the hearts & minds of the buyers who have been voting German with their wallets since the 1980s. When these people see a Caddy with tacky dealer add-ons, it kills their interest in the car.

    Let's be blunt. The sorts of people who find carriage tops & wide whitewalls attractive are too old, too poor & too badly educated to sustain a luxury brand. Cadillac has no future with these customers & it shouldn't hesitate to cut them loose. Let 'em drive Town Cars.
  • slimtireslimtire Member Posts: 15
    I must say that I'm really surprised that you think the STS is too small. I'm 6'1" 185 lbs. There is nothing small about the Cadillac STS to me at all.
  • slimtireslimtire Member Posts: 15
    "But if Cadillac expects to have any credibility as a luxury brand, it simply has to win the hearts & minds of the buyers who have been voting German with their wallets since the 1980s. When these people see a Caddy with tacky dealer add-ons, it kills their interest in the car.

    Let's be blunt. The sorts of people who find carriage tops & wide whitewalls attractive are too old, too poor & too badly educated to sustain a luxury brand. Cadillac has no future with these customers & it shouldn't hesitate to cut them loose. Let 'em drive Town Cars."

    _________________________

    Yes, and a brand that proudly builds tacky, impractical, GAUCHE, bling bling Cadillac Escalade trucks will never be seen as standard of the world. It makes most people that would gladly part with so much of their green for Lexus LS400 series and BMWs cringe with embarrassment.. These people would buy a Toyota Camry which is much less expensive before they spend their money on a Cadillac with these types of add-ons. But is GM paying attention? NO.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    "I understand the complexity of designing and building a "perfect sedan". (The 3-series is real close, imho.)"

    I have great respect for the BMW 3.
    I drove a 335i the day before I bought the G8 GT.
    But even the 328i EPA combined # is 22 - quite a ways from 30.
    [ 18 city \ 28 highway ]
    And the 335d is not quite there, either @ 27 combined.
    [ 23 city \ 36 highway ]
    - Ray
    [ edit: I do wonder exactly what that future Caddy 3-fighter will
    look like
    handle like
    accelerate like &
    achieve for EPA #s ]
    2022 X3 M40i
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I never ordered or drove a Cadillac with any of that tacky add-on junk. My Cadillac is free of any of that stuff and looks as respectable as any of those heralded European marques:

    image
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Slim: I believe the "problem" is that the rear seat is not very roomy, esp if the driver seat is set way back...

    At the Auto Show, I sat in an STS...at 5'3", when I set the drivers seat, you could play professional soccer in the rear seat and I won't know it, with that much room...but if I extend the seat back for a tall person, rear seat room did seem to diminish...
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Its called the Cobalt SS with 260 direct injected turbo horsepower.

    It blows away cars that are more then twice its price.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Very clean! Especially for Black, wow!

    Sadly, this clean one went to CFC, what a shame :(

    image
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Shoot, I'd have rescued that one and used it as my beater car. That truck behind it doesn't look bad either. C4C seems to becoming a tragic waste. If I were to C4C a car, it would have to be a smashed-up rusted-out hulk with an interior that looked like it was ravaged by a wildcat and belching blue and white smoke.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I agree and I am totally against the wastefullness of this program. :sick: There are some perfectly good vehicles that are being scrapped. :mad:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    That's like a 2000+ model too, isn't it? I hope it was a miled up livery-abused example.

    Exploder in front of it looks like a 2002 or so model too.

    I see a couple of S10 Blazers in the shot...I have no problem being rid of those. Those extended cab Ford trucks that collapse like pop cans in hard crashes don't warm my heart either.

    I have to wonder about the defects or wear on these vehicles that makes them worth so little. If anything, it is a testamant to how well some vehicles age, at least on the outside.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    When you drive the 3-series for the fist few thousand miles, the respect turns into exhilaration as the car becomes an extension of your every anticipation. Never, Never, NEVER did that happen with a U.S. built vehicle in my experience. :cry:

    Regards,
    OW
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, you might hang around a larger dealership and offer the person $5000 or something for a vehicle like that. A lot of it is that people will trade cars that wholesale at $3-6K trade-in but retail in the 5-8K range just to get their payments down and get it done quickly.

    Shame with that DTS - I'd buy it for $4500 in a heartbeat.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Shame with that DTS - I'd buy it for $4500 in a heartbeat.

    If it's anything like the DTS I had, it's in the right place.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Provided there was nothing seriously wrong with it, I'd have give them $4,500 in cash and be done with it. I wonder if it's possible for one to buy a car that has been traded in a C4C deal or is that car doomed by law?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Found out in the C4C topic that if a vehicle has CARS on the title, it is done for by law. You can't buy it.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    have to pour "sodium silicate" into the engine to ruin it intentionally...does anyone know if that "silicate" has a more generic name, and how does it ruin the engine???
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The other name for it is "liquid glass."

    I guess the stuff poured in a running engine ruins the bearings and pistons. Seizes the engine.

    Ironically, some people have used the stuff as a block sealer to fix head gasket problems and cracked engine blocks, at least for a few months.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Silica is a form of glass and very abrasive. Think of it as smashing a bottle into bits and stuffing it in the engine... while running. :sick:
  • bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
    When I made this thread.. I truly believed GM could make Cadillac the standard of the world once again... but now with the CTS beign the brands only completive vehicle... I don't see it happening anytime soon.. :confuse:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Nice dream....

    Regards,
    OW
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    I'm 6'3" 250lbs and perfectly fit in 135i, yes, I'm and my bag don't care about rear seats.. Size doesn't matter, some cars designed for Japanese bodies, other for European bodies. CTS is a good car, but too expensive and loose value too fast.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    CTS is a good car, but too expensive and loose value too fast.

    Exactly! Not even close to world standard. It's the reputation and the legacy business model that continues to drag Cadillac through the mud. Most aspects of the pricing model continue unchecked which will definitely keep it down.

    Since the latest generation CTS went on sale in model year 2008, pricing has risen about $7000, Caldwell said. Higher average transaction and base prices means the CTS is moving into a clearer pricing position as a BMW 5 Series and Audi A6 fighter, making room for the smaller rear-wheel drive entry-level sedan on the way.

    The SRX crossover needs no price cut to move off dealer lots but earlier this month we reported that Cadillac had a too-long five-month supply of the CTS. A price reduction like this should help maintain the brand's momentum, as should the $1000 incentives on the CTS sedan and wagon currently being offered.


    CTS Wagon - Price Reduction

    When you need to lower your price on a brand new variant, something is wrong with the decisions in GM to this day. :lemon:

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2011
    Buy a CPO with a 6-year/100,000-mile limited warranty.

    "Cadillac is relaunching its certified pre-owned program to provide added confidence to customers seeking a used luxury automobile and help boost the resale value of Cadillacs.

    "In the luxury market, pre-owned automobiles are often an entry point for new customers to the brand," said Kurt McNeil, vice president of Cadillac Sales and Service. "We want these customers to know that we stand behind the quality of our pre-owned Cadillacs."

    Cadillac Relaunches Certified Pre-owned Program (PRNewswire)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Gee, you think we should actually support our cars now that we are preaching "Standard of the World"?

    Wow! What a unique concept, GM. Keep 'em coming!

    Regards,
    OW
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    lol "Standard of the World"

    Ya, because Bentley, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, Pagani, etc, look to imitate a bunch of blinged out gangsta schoolbuses and fwd couches with cloth roofs and wire hubcaps.

    But, the arrogance at Government Motors never disappoints... :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Tell Mr. Peabody and Sherman to bring you back to 2011. The WABAC machine has left you somewhere in the mid 1980s.

    Besides, the Rolls-Royce seems to imitate a Kenworth truck nowadays. All the Phantom now needs is some chrome exhaust stacks.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    LOL! Ya, they should have told "Slick Rick" the car salesman who tried to sell me a CTS back in 2004. I told him I'd buy it if they could get the stench of his cheap cologne and stale cigar smell out of the interior after we were done with the test drive...

    I also needed to remind him I wasn't "part of the family" either. Seriously.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I would've never bought any car from a salesman like that. I bought my last two Cadillacs from the same salesman - a middle-aged, conservative, courteous, professional man.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Besides, the Rolls-Royce seems to imitate a Kenworth truck nowadays.

    Well, clips from the wedding 2 weeks ago showed the RR in all its glory. As well as the jag-u-r. RR has class that Caddy never will.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2011
    For the first time in it's history, a Cadillac will no longer be powered by its own engines. As the article below suggests (see next post)....what would Mercedes be without a Mercedes engine, or a BMW without its signature, world-renowed powerplants? A Toyota-engined Lexus? A Fiat-powered Ferrari?

    Can a prestige brand even continue to exist when watered down to "off the shelf" parts?

    Or can Cadillac pull off a hat-trick like Corvette does with its LS engine line?

    And, most importantly, will the public even notice this landmark change?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2011
    Read the Article HERE:

    The Cadillac Obituary
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    And, most importantly, will the public even notice this landmark change?

    It may not be that big of a deal, and in fact has been happening for a long time. For instance, I don't think the compact CTS has ever had a "true" Cadillac engine. IIRC, it always used the 2.8/3.0/3.6 corporate V-6 engine, while the V-8's got a version of the Corvette engine. Similarly, the midsize SLS mainly relied on the 3.6 V-6. The Cadillac Northstar V-8 was optional, but I believe the 3.6 still accounted for the bulk of sales.

    That leaves Caddy's flagship sedan, the DTS, which relies solely on the Northstar. And it's been selling in fewer and fewer numbers as the years have gone by, and I think they recently discontinued it altogether?

    FWIW, Cadillac's flaship sedan went for a decade without a Cadillac engine before. In 1986, they wisely chose to put the Olds 307 in the Brougham, rather than the underpowered, unreliable aluminum 4.1 V-8, which was the standard engine from 1982-85. Around 1989-90 they started offering a Chevy 350 as an option, but I think only for coach builders and trailering packages. The Olds 307 went out of production after 1990, and for 1991-92, you could get the Chevy 305 or 350 in the Brougham. For 1993-96, the car was renamed Fleetwood, and came only with a 350. It got the hot LT-1 in 1994, which was the same engine used in the Impala SS.

    I think as long as the car is still viewed as a step up in quality and luxury from the likes of Chevy and Buick, and if the corporate engines are at least offered in higher hp-configurations than with the lesser brands, Cadillac still has a chance.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Considering that the CTS engine is, according to actual mechanics and engineers, the best thing that GM has ever built in one of their cars, I see no problem with that. It's basically designed by nearly identical minds and at a nearly identical plant to what Mercedes and BMW use in Germany.

    My mother's LeSabre idles like it has rocks in its engine compared to the new CTS. Just worlds apart.

    The King is dead.

    Long live the King!

    :P
  • hoosiergrandadhoosiergrandad Member Posts: 96
    "Besides, the Rolls-Royce seems to imitate a Kenworth truck nowadays."

    What's wrong with that? Some might argue that "Petes" are worthier of emulation, I guess...... The new top line IH is pretty cool, too. I always thought the Deusey "J" had a lot in common with a Peterbilt . I'll take my tongue partially out of my cheek now.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    CTS is the only modern Caddy I would want. CTS-V wagon would be my pick. But I don't know if they can build the brand on that...new models are needed yesterday.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Detroit lost the luxury market some years back. Cadillac is trying with somewhat unique designs and modern drivetrains. It may take awhile, but they've got a shot. I saw one of those new Lincoln MKT vehicles Ford is touting as a TC replacement - I think Lincoln may be toast.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Caddy is much stronger than Lincoln, for sure. I can't think of a new Lincoln I really want, at least there is a Caddy or two I wouldn't kick out of my garage.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Agreed. CTS-V coupe for me. But its funny how GM claims it's still the World Standard....for what?

    Unfortunately, Cadillac is getting a little ahead of itself by once again advertising “Standard of the World.” Here’s what’s missing to substantiate that claim:

    1. Sales – Cadillac is outsold in its home market by Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz;
    2. Cadillac sells almost no cars outside the U.S. because no one other than Americans want them;
    3. European brands including Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Rolls Royce and Bentley are sought after and sold in most countries around the world. Mercedes, Audi and BMW each sell about a million cars per year worldwide. Cadillac sells fewer than 200,000, almost all in one country.

    So to suggest that Cadillac is the “Standard of the World” is simply not true.


    This is probably going to be called bashing but too bad! :)

    Regards
    OW
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    are old enough to remember when Cadillac motors were special and sought after by street rodders and race car builders but that was back in the Jurassic. The Northstar is a pretty good engine but it's wasted on old coots driving DTS FWD barges and modern corporate economics does not allow for separate motors for each division.

    Do the hip-hop wannabes care if their 'Slade has a Chebbie under the hood? Do stop light racers mind that their CTS-V has a Corvette motor? Do DTS owners even know that the last real Caddy motor is under their hoods?

    No, no and no! ;)

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

Sign In or Register to comment.