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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I can't think of a new Lincoln I really want, at least there is a Caddy or two I wouldn't kick out of my garage.

    Same here. The CTS is a bit small for my tastes, but I can still appreciate it as a noble effort. And, even though it's getting a bit dinosaur-ish in automotive terms, I'd still be more than happy with a DTS. The SLS sort of gets lost in the shuffle to me, though...at a quick glance, it seems indistinguishable from the CTS.

    As for Lincoln, the only one I would really want is the Town Car, but I think that one's finally been discontinued completely, or, at best is for special order/fleet only. I kinda like the MK-whatever that's based on the Fusion, although its humble origins are all-too obvious. In general though, Lincoln just doesn't seem upscale enough to me, anymore, though. Even the Town Car seemed like it was getting cheap on the inside, essentially a taxi with leather seats.

    It was either Lemko or Grbeck who summed it up perfectly at one of the Carlisle Ford shows... "Lincoln. What a Mercury SHOULD be!"
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Standard of the world for American cars? :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I think the STS is out of production now, maybe the DTS too. Will impact rental fleets more than anyone else. TC is slated to die off in a few months, I think....can't imagine that it has earned a retail sale in years.

    Maybe killing Mercury was premature - move the existing Lincoln line to that brand and give Lincoln some actual new product, like Caddy got several years ago. Ford could make the investment...too late now though.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'm very much aware of that Northstar engine under my DTS' hood and am hardly an old coot. It's one good reason my DTS may become another lifetime car for me.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    It's a shame about the STS, as it was the bigger version of the (previous generation) CTS that was unfortunately off of everyone's radar. I'd rate it as comparable to a 7 series. ie - very good and sporty, but no, not an S-Class or true luxo-barge. I really hope that GM decides to replace it with something even better.

    And, yes, GM sells Cadillac in China. The STS is still sold over there, where it has a much nicer interior than the U.S. version. My personal hope is that the Chinese interior/styling makes its way back over here.

    Looking at the XTS information and auto show pictures, it looks like it's going to be exactly what we wanted. A bigger, better CTS for those who want a big executive cruiser and who don't want to deal with the insanity of the European brands when it comes to repairs and upkeep costs. (yes I know about BMW's program, but it's not going to help you on a 5 year old vehicle. )
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    I like that CTS wagon. In another couple of years I can pick up a lightly used one for less than a new Accord. Nice.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    STS-V would be interesting and rare, but the rest...meh. It seems to have been about 3/4 finished, good for 2005, hard to justify still being sold mostly untouched in 2010.

    XTS looks pretty cool. Caddy needs to build this image, not only an image of harsh angles for the sake of hard angles, and blingy SUVs beloved by wannabe gangstas, trophy wives, and old men.

    Only at GM could the Chinese market offerings look interesting.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    But the XTS "image" is what's being sold in China. I can't complain about improvements. The first gen vs 2nd gen CTS was just immensely better inside. I can SO stand more of that ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    GM does have a better image there than here - XTS is still in pre-production though, isn't it?

    I know what you mean with the original CTS - a co-worker bought one when they were fairly new, and I remember looking it over...dashboard texture in particular turned me off.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    will die, but I would simply place it as another bit player in the lower end luxury car market...years ago you had Caddy, Lincoln and Imperial, and the imports had few cars coming in here...in NY foreign dealers had many brands under one roof (Mercedes, Jag, BMW, maybe even Rolls and Bentley) simply because no one brand sold enough cars to create any volume or profits for the dealer...now, each brand individually can support a dealer, so you have separate Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Jag, MB, BMW, etc...now Caddy is almost the only American "luxury" car and it is probably overshadowed by the foreign competition...

    Caddy has a place at the table, just like Chevrolet, but Caddy will NEVER be a fraction of what it once was...and that crap about "Standard of the World" is almost shameful...maybe they should change the slogan to "American Luxury & Performance" which would probably describe it well...
  • 08srxlemon08srxlemon Member Posts: 7
    2 months into the 08 SRX you said you loved it and looked forward to your drive each morning,,, 4 weeks into a new car is too soon to give a good review that could influence a potential buyer... I hope no one was affected by your premature assessment of this Vehicle...
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Not for nothing, but 2 months is 8 WEEKS, not 4. Did you really think they would reply to something from 3 yrs ago???
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2012
    "As well as the CTS, Cadillac has two other new models coming in the next year, the next-generation Escalade full-size SUV and the ELR, a luxury, extended-range electric coupe using technology from the Chevrolet Volt.

    Beyond these models, Cadillac is working on more new vehicles than at any time in its history. "We are expanding and elevating our brand in terms of design and technology," says Don Butler, marketing chief."

    Cadillac seeks to regain luxury title (Detroit News)

    "GM plans to introduce 10 all-new or redesigned Cadillacs, including two that hit the market this summer, executives told reporters.

    GM wants to "restore Cadillac to be the standard of the world" and wants to capture a larger share of the global luxury vehicle market, said Don Butler, Cadillac's vice president of marketing."

    GM intends to double Cadillac's sales in U.S. (Detroit Free Press)
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    does Caddy have a chance to survive???...are there enough folks who now avoid Caddy as part of "Government Motors" that might have bought a Caddy before the govt bailout???

    I have a few friends that will not buy any GM product due to the bailout, looking at either Ford or the imports...
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I'd have to say that the vast majority of folks really don't look at it as "Government Motors" and really don't care.

    Personally I'd buy a Cadillac over the competing European model as I believe the Cadillac is a better value.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I guess I am surprised...I don't see how one can see it as anything BUT govt motors...esp since that is probably one of the linchpins of Obama's campaign, that he saved GM...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    IMO Caddy is still in a rebuilding mode. Not going down anymore, they just need more brand equity via better image and products. I am cautiously optimistic for the brand.

    Also IMNSHO, the "government motors" babble is more bitterness from the birther/"we built this" crowd (who didn't) who can't stand to see that the previous big election might be repeated again soon.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I guess I am surprised...I don't see how one can see it as anything BUT govt motors...esp since that is probably one of the linchpins of Obama's campaign, that he saved GM...

    It depends on your crowd. Here in the northeast, I have never heard the phrase "Government Motors" nor felt a bias against GM. Based on what I've read of your postings, you and yours are a litter "redder" than I am. :)
  • billy3554billy3554 Member Posts: 148
    Marsha 7 and her "few friends" may see GM as Government Motors, the rest of us see GM as, well, GM. We are thankful that President Obama took action to save GM from likely extinction. We recognize the many jobs which were saved as a result of President Obama's involvement. One shudders to contemplate the different result had Bain been involved.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Let's stick to Cadillac please; there's plenty of politics everywhere else you look.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Likewise! I would buy another Cadillac except my current Cadillac is so darn awesome, I'd hate to trade it and I have no room for yet another one if I keep it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2012
    At least I think that's what the headline is saying, lol.

    Cadillac To Retain All-American Styling, Despite European Offensive (Inside Line)

    "Adams, who remains head of design for GM's Opel brand while a replacement is found, says he wants to add "design quality" to the mix, as well as building on Cadillac's American roots. This is contrary to the expectations of some within the department, who had thought that he would be introducing a European styling element. But Adams told Edmunds he gave an emphatic "no" to that approach."
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "General Motors Co. plans to remake its luxury Cadillac brand with a possible new flagship sedan, a refreshed lineup and maybe even a two-seat sports car, as it named its top lobbyist Tuesday to head up the effort to boost Cadillac worldwide and differentiate it from the rest of the GM pack."

    Cadillac takes refresher course (Detroit News)
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited October 2012
    Hmmm...I don't know if this will work for Cadillac. In the early 1990s I worked for a large, national telecommunications provider, and the person who was named head of our department had absolutely no experience in this field. In the long run, this did not work.

    And for how long have we been hearing about a new flagship sedan for Cadillac? I'll believe it when the actual car shows up at the dealer. The two-seat sports car is a waste of money at this point. The Allante and XLR were both ultimately dead ends. GM needs to ensure that the ATS, CTS, SRX and Escalade are distinctive and fully competitive with the best from Germany and Japan. The money would be better spent there.

    Last week I saw a new ATS at the Chevrolet-Cadillac dealer in my hometown. It's a handsome car, but, a glance, it was hard to tell whether it was an ATS or a CTS. The late, great Bill Mitchell once ridiculed BMW for selling the "the same sausage in different lengths," and now it appears as though Cadillac is doing the same thing.

    If you like the whole Art & Science styling theme, you'll like this car. If you don't, you wont.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2012
    Mulally seems to be working out okay. He's more than a "mere" department head though.

    Best thing Caddy could do, at least for the US market, is to bring back some real names. DeVille, LaSalle, Fleetwood, Coupe de Ville.

    The only current Cadillac I can identify with is the Escalade. When I read that, I know what the vehicle is. The rest are just a muddle.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    edited October 2012
    Mulally has an engineering background, and he was experienced in making multiple disciplines work together on a complicated piece of machinery.

    The effect of his personality can't be discounted. Based on everything I've read about him, he has the ability to tell subordinates to get with the program or seek opportunities elsewhere, without coming across as a tyrant.

    Of course, it helped that Ford was in a crisis, and most people realized it was in a crisis. I don't get the impression that GM has yet reached a similar conclusion, even with the government-sponsored "bankruptcy."

    As for Cadillac's names:

    ATS - LaSalle

    CTS - Seville

    CTS Coupe - Eldorado

    new flagship - Fleetwood (skip the "Brougham" part).

    I'd leave DeVille on the shelf.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I respectfully disagree on going back to the old names.

    Cadillac is trying to move towards a younger demographic to whom those names mean very little. The target customer is a European brand buyer who is used to alpha-numeric designations.

    A name like LaSalle is relevant if you were born in the 20's or 30's. To someone born in the 60's +, it means nothing. Eldorado, Seville, Fleetwood would conjure up images of stuffy, floating barges to those same people.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    LaSalle might also work for Archie Bunker fans. But yeah, I think that name was antique ages ago.

    Eldorado is somewhat of a cool name. Seville makes me think of bustlebacks. Fleetwood of 70s era mastodons.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dunno. I was born in the 1960s and absolutely adore nameplates like "Fleetwood Brougham D'Elegance!"
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    But you're an enigma.

    I knew 1 kid back in the 80's - born in the 60's - whose owned a baby blue w/ white vinyl roof Coupe DeVille Fleetwood Brougham D'Elangance. His name was Carmine, he worked out alot, he wore muscle shirts and Spot Bilt coaching shoes and was associated with a less than savory bunch out of the North End in Boston.
  • keystonecarfankeystonecarfan Member Posts: 181
    If everyone else is using alpha-numeric names, then maybe Cadillac should do the opposite to set itself apart from the herd.

    I see nothing wrong with LaSalle...if most people have forgotten the original version, that gives Cadillac a chance to start with a clean slate for a new model. The ATS seems like a good car, so it would do the LaSalle nameplate justice.

    As for Seville - on the right car, it could be used. Yes, it was damaged in the 1980s, but Ford has proven that the right vehicle can rehabilitate a tarnished nameplate with the 1979 Mustang and the current Taurus. The CTS certainly has been getting decent reviews, and the next version is supposed to be larger to compete with the BMW 5-Series. I think "Seville" might be a good fit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I don't adore or hate the names, but it's sure a lot easier for me to associate an Escalade with the actual vehicle than try to figure out what an XTS is.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Alpha's, numeric's, alpha-numeric's - they have just become too many and too common. In Teutonic tradition they can tell you where you are up the totem poll I suppose (well, except for Lincoln), but it seems to me that they really don't have the old European panache anymore. I'd welcome the return to names.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    “We planned for the ATS to take some CTS customers out of the market who otherwise would have seen,” said Cadillac’s U.S. sales chief Chase Hawkins. “We definitely are going to be producing fewer CTSs next year to create some of that space for ATS.”

    Cadillac CTS sales nosedive as buyers look at the new ATS (egmcartech.com)
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    DTS, STS, ATS, CTS...who can keep up with them???...and, considering the number of students who graduate or leave high school, taught by unionized teachers, unable to read their diplomas, how will THEY keep up with this alphabet soup of cars???
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    The XTS may satisfy the old DTS/DeVille segment, but it's not really a flagship vehicle. Unfortunately, I think the media over built up the XTS more than GM did. But if Cadillac really wants to become higher end it's got to move product up. Now the ATS may be a BMW 3 challenger, but is BMW really a luxury make? I think it's generally more like Audi than Mercedes. Nothing wrong with that, but it won't move the Caddy line further up to justify Buick that way. Lincoln has the same problem. The Detroit offerings come across to me as more near lux, than lux. They have to decide what they want to be. By the way, I think Lexus is starting to have this same problem frankly.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    No, the XTS falls short for me. I think my DTS is a more substantial car. The XTS looks like more of a car for my wife than me. I wish Cadillac would make a real S-Class competitor.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The XTS may satisfy the old DTS/DeVille segment, but it's not really a flagship vehicle.

    I think it's pretty common knowledge that the XTS was a stop gap solution.

    Cadillac is working on a new RWD flagship sedan based on the new Omega platform. It is expected in 2015 and will be larger than the XTS. The XTS may hang around either in it's current form for the livery market or may be replaced by a shortened Omega platform based vehicle.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited December 2012
    I saw an ATS lease ad, the "standard 2.5" or whatever version, $369/month. Unfortunately, 3er and C (and I assume A4 and IS) can be had for a less during giveaway time. New player usually needs to undercut someone to gain a foothold.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    The ATS offer is $369 a month, no money down for 36 months/

    The BMW offer is $339 a month, $750 Loyalty Discount (if you qualify) and $3800 down for 39 months.

    IMHO, the ATS is a better deal. The real cost of the BMW is $436 a month with the down payment amortized over 39 months. Is soul worth and exta $70 a month?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Oh that's good then, it wasn't touted during the ad I saw - it should be.

    But are the cars identically equipped? I am sure the ATS has some soul, too. GM needs to publicize this car more.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I am sure the ATS has some soul, too.

    Fin - is that really you?? Did you just say a non German car has soul??

    :)

    The Cadillac is a 2.0 Turbo , automatic with luxury preferred group. The BMW is the 328i with auto and premium package. ATS has leather vs leatherette, BMW has moonroof.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I don't think many modern cars really have "soul" - I've never really used the term in a discussion that I can recall.

    I vividly recall the ATS ad I saw saying it was a "2.5 standard". Would they call the "luxury" group "standard"? Knowing the execs at the 11th level of management in GM, I could see it.

    Still, the car needs to really undercut the competition to lure people in. If it is the same car for the same money, it is going to be a tough battle.

    Funny coincidence - right now my banner ad is for an Escalade lease, $0 due at signing, ultra low mileage (30K/36 mos) - $849/month. No bargain there.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The CTS and ATS *are* German cars, though. The design team is from Germany, the engine is designed in Germany, and the thing is tested in Germany.

    It just has a Cadillac badge on it instead of Opel. It's as close to German engineering as you can possibly get without having to suffer the reliability or electrical issues.

    I can guarantee that the ATS will be a car you can purchase and it won't break your bank. Try that with a 3 series. There's a reason why sane people lease BMWs and don't buy them.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Also, the ATS does not suffer from the images as the "Ultimate Poseur Car" as does the 3-Series. Every 20-something Staples Assistant Manager leases a 3-Series.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeesh!!! LEASE at $849 a month?!?!? Shoot, my payments to BUY my DTS were way way less than that! That's a lotta money for a wannabe baller in the 'hood!
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Yeesh!!! LEASE at $849 a month?!?!? Shoot, my payments to BUY my DTS were way way less than that! That's a lotta money for a wannabe baller in the 'hood!

    That's 36 months, zero down on a $64K car. Similar priced X5 is leasing for $679 a month. In any case, that's crazy money for a lease.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Heck, I think that's a ridiculous payment or lease for any depreciating asset, especially if you can't write part of it off for business expense.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    The baller in your hood buys a 2002 'Slade (which doesn't seem really different from a new one in style, quality, or image) and then finances it at 20% with a similar payment. However, if he completes the term, at least he owns it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    At first glance it looked like this reviewer was cussing the new ATS; turns out he was giving it four stars (out of four stars).

    "Light, powerful and efficient, the * * * * 2013 Cadillac ATS sport sedan is a breakthrough for America's premier luxury brand. Lavishly equipped and attractively priced, it raises Cadillac to a new level.

    The ATS competes with sport sedans like the Audi A4, BMW 3-series, Infiniti G37, Lexus IS 350, Lincoln MKZ and Mercedes-Benz C-class. The new Cadillac's price, fuel economy and performance stack up well against comparably equipped models."

    Mark Phelan: Cadillac ATS sport sedan strong in looks, performance (Detroit Free Press)
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