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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    lol, How many Escalades do you think sell in Europe??? And the SRX as the Standard of CUV's? lol. Sales don't really back that conclusion up. I've looked at Kia's that had better interior quality than the CTS.

    And as far as performance is concerned, I don't care if Caddy had a 1000 hp, Autobahn eating monster with a 6-speed manual, sport suspension and a big fat whale tail a la 911 Porsche, if it is sharing a showroom floor with a Front wheel drive DTS sporting wire wheels, a landau roof and curb feelers, with some greasy slimeball salesman named "Slick rick" trying to sell me a car with an AARP discount, I still wouldn't go near a Caddy dealer.

    And a line of pickup truck based SUV's that were enrolled in a "Pimp my Ride" workshop is not how you "One-up" the competiton... Last I checked, Benz, BMW and Audi weren't scrambling to build an EXT fighter...

    Sorry, Cadillac will always be the "Standard of GM"... A Standard given by those who have never experienced what a real luxury performance BRAND brings to the table. It's more than just one or two cars mixed in with a bunch of duds.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The last time a DeVille had wire wheel covers was 1993. Where the heck have you been? Curb-feelers, et al are AFTERMARKET. If you have a problem with them, blame the owner of the vehicle, not its manufacturer. I've seen plenty of pimped-out Bimmers, Benzes, and Lexi. My salesman had a professional demeanor and I was never offered an AARP discount. Get with the times!
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I agree "anything" is lost in the past and still hates GM, as he did in the 1970's or 80's. One of these days he will get bad service from his foreign car dealer and then what ?

    I guess everybody dislikes something and "anythings" bone is with GM.

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >"Slick rick" trying to sell me a car with an AARP discount,

    What's wrong with AARP discounts. I've used them since 50. I'll bet if I stop at the BMW dealer they'll find an equivalent--maybe GARP discount oder Deutsche ARP.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    :D ROTF !!!!!! :D

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The Cadillac Sixteen could outclass everything, if, and only if, Cadillac builds it to outclass everything. However, GM in general, and Cadillac in particular, tends to build stuff to industry average rather than set new standards for the class. The Saturn Aura does indicate that GM may be changing. I am not sure how much of an improvement the 2007 SRX interior really is though.

    Bentley is now owned by Volkswagen, and is not the same thing as a Rolls anymore. Bentley does have two E's.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I know that sorry I had a typo

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Your discription of the dealer matches my experience with the local Nissan dealer. They called me after I advertized my Seville in the local paper, and are trying to sell me something, anything, because they have a potential customer for my Seville. :( :mad: :surprise: :sick:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    wow....

    Rocky
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Back in like 04' I drove a CTS with the 3.2? and a stick (Atrocious btw) and I actually ended up with a salesman who went by the name of Slick Rick! Slicked back gray hair, cheap polyester leisure suit, strong smelling cheap cologne... Ugh. I swear I was negotiating with Marlon Brando...

    btw Which Nissan are you looking at?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    That exact car with all the "Toys" was parked on the showroom floor next to the CTS that I was looking at at the time. And it was hubcaps, they were wire rims.

    I didn't look inside to see if there was a bedpan on the front seat though... :P
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    ROTF !!!! :D

    Your crazy man. :P

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Dude, for the billionth time, all that SELF-DESTRUCTIVE ADD-ON JUNK IS AFTERMARKET! If you hate that stuff so much, blame the dealer or the customer with bad taste, not GM. No Cadillac comes that way from the factory. For wire wheel covers one has to assume there are steel wheels underneath. My base 1994 Cadillac Deville that I purchased in November 1993 was as plain as a Cadillac came that year and it nice aluminum wheels standard. Steel wheels with wire wheel covers weren't even an option.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    some of us know that lemko. Some people have such bad tastes and put aftermarket wire rims on nice cars like Cadillacs. :mad:

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    GM should take a stand and publicly castigate the add on crap. It's in the best interest of their own image.

    GM can't control the dealers who add the junk, but they can make it clear that they don't support such image-killing accessories.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Hopefully, guys who like that add-on garbage will either pass on or go to the retirement home for good. Trouble is, like street drugs, that stuff wouldn't be out there if there wasn't a market for it. You've got to admit, it does affect the opinion of the uninformed. Dealers should be strongly discouraged from selling this crap.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    They could control their dealers from adding that crap on it as a attempt to lure a certain buyer. It's just like some dealers trying to sell those faux convertible tops on the STS a while back. it looked tacky, and the dealer aftermarketed it. :mad:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I totally agree with you lemko. It's one thing for a customer to go out and aftermarket it. They don't have a brand image to uphold like a dealer.

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There was a local dealer who would slap all that crap onto its used cars in a misguided attempt to boost profits on its pre-owned vehicles. The place has new owners and this practice has pretty much ceased.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    that's good. :)

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The problem is that those "some people" are Cadillac (and Lincoln and sometimes Chrysler) dealers more often than not. I've never seen a Honda or Toyota dealer with new Accords and Camrys featuring giant wings, primer gray body kits, chrome altezzas, and neons. GM and Ford really should crack the whip on that sort of thing, but the franchise agreements probably disallow it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    "Anything" always protests oldsters and their pimped-out Caddies and Lincolns. Forty years from now, today's young'uns will be driving Lexi and Avalons with spoilers, Altezza lights, ground effects, neon lights, and grapefruit-shooter exhausts as 2046's youth looks on in derision.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL, yep.... :blush:

    Rocky
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Why would a dealer waste his time and effort having that optional crap on a car and then park it in the showroom??? Obviously there must be SOME kind of market for it :confuse:

    Why? because, like Lincoln, the Cadillac marque still represents a stodgy, elderly, and pedestrian line of cars. And if it ain't cars, it's the over the top, gaudy, "blingbling" schoolbuses that have attracted the Rap artists and sportfigures of the country. Sure, there are V-series cars, but even those don't break the mold that Caddy has formed over the years.

    BOT, Seriously though, when you guys are defending Cadillac and aiming for "Standard of the World", what exactly are you aiming for? Standard of what World?

    Tuetonic Autobahn eating supersedans? I don't think Cadillac there....

    Ultra fast, sleek, supercoupes and convertibles like a Qvale Mangusta, Keonsigg (sp?), Bugatti Veryon, Carrera GT, Spyker C8, Mosler M12 Seriously... Caddilac? roflmao

    Hard core, offroad monsters softened by the finest leather, latest technological wizardry and amenities? The Escalade wouldn't stand a chance in a real offroading situation...

    Superlux cruisers like Rolls, bentley and Maybach?

    I don't think Cadillac when I think of ANY of the above criteria. And it is absolutely silly to argue they can be "THE STANDARD" when their is no definition to shoot for in the first place.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Cadillac doesn't neatly fall into any category. It is its own singular make with its own singular qualities. A Cadillac is a sensible high-quality, ultra-reliable, solidly-built, competent luxury car that cradles the driver and occupants in comfortable luxury that can rapidly respond to any demand in acceleration or challenging driving condition.

    If any marque is becoming stodgy, elderly, and pedestrian, it's Lexus.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    In your opinion yes. I could say the same about the Benzes I have owned as well. Thing is, the Merc also adds the element of performance and the techno-wizardry not found in a run o the mill GM'er.

    Germans build one hell of a road car.

    If any marque is becoming stodgy, elderly, and pedestrian, it's Lexus.

    I could agree with that one, a japanese Buick/Cadillac. Thing is, you get the quality and ergonomic aspects to show for it. Lexus quality is top notch. It's rich, warm and built very well. More of a "Standard" than Caddy... But if you want THE STANDARD, you turn to cars like Audi, Bentley and Rolls.

    Although, others will claim that Lexus is THE STANDARD for interior quality...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...the techno-wizardry if it's not reliable. It kills my brother-in-law's S430 which is plagued by electrical gremlins. Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather do without all the high-tech gizmos and subsequent high repair costs.

    I'd agree that Lexus is the benchmark for interior quality but not so much design these days. Stepping inside a Lexus is sort of like "been there, done that" these days. They were pretty dazzling when they debuted.

    I like to keep my standards grounded in reality, therefore a Rolls or Bentley is out of the question. Anybody can build an awesome car if cost isn't a factor. Mercedes-Benz used to be like this. They'd build the car first and then put a price on it - and people were willing to pay it until Lexus flipped this whole paradigm on its ear. Now, that Mercedes has to build to a cost, it is hobbled in the quality and reliability department. Cadillac can build a car to cost and still remain pretty-much trouble-free.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I don't know. My Mercedes was pretty reliable, never gave me an ounce of trouble except for tires and brake maintainence. My wifes business mate has a CLS500 after having two perfectly flawless E500 4matic sedans (00, 03). Both were traded with over 130k on the clocks with minimal issue. The CLS now has something like 60k (Drives all over the place with the thing) and it is also flawless.

    So MB quality and reliability issues may be a bit exageratted in my experience. Wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

    I like to keep my standards grounded in reality, therefore a Rolls or Bentley is out of the question. Anybody can build an awesome car if cost isn't a factor.

    Exactly, but if you wanna be THE STANDARD, (whatever the hell that means anyways) you gotta be the end all, be all to the automotive universe. Cost is not factor here.

    Heck a Honda Civic could be the Standard of the world because it nails so many segments woth just one car. My S2000 could be a standard because how many 4 cylinder motors out there can hit 9000 RPM's reliably and still get 30mpg. A Kia Rio could be a standard because it is the cheapest brand new car out there.

    No, Standard of the world is a brand that all others aspire to. A brand that everyone looks to and says "Ya, I gotta have one of those". A brand that people would give their left nut just to own and treasure. Sorry, but outside the realm of GM fans, Caddy is not a brand that all others in the world look up to and want to emulate. Frankly there are SO many other carmakers out there now that just do the "Standard" thing a heck of a lot better. Have been for a long time.

    This isn't the 1950's anymore, that's all.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...then what IS the standard? Is it cost? Is the most costly car the standard? Anybody who knows anything about 1980s Rolls-Royces knew they were costly, but very unreliable, complex, outdated, and expensive to repair. Rolls-Royce and Bentley wouldn't even exist today if VW and BMW didn't come to their rescue. As a result, are BMW and VW the standard? Maybe BMW could be a standard, but I'd hardly aspire to be like VW.

    Is the fastest car the standard? Well, then every car should aspire to be one of those seldom-seen exotics you mentioned. It's pretty sad when only the uber-wealthy can own the car that's the standard. How about race cars? Shoot, funny cars and fuel dragsters are fast. Maybe NASCAR racers?

    Is a car that can go anywhere the standard? Well, then the crown belongs to Hummer.

    If "Ya, I gotta have one of those!" is the standard, it most definately and truly is Cadillac in my opinion, or if I'm being more sensible - a Buick.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    So no aspirations outside of the GM'ers Lemko? I know you've mentioned in the past almost buying a Lexus LS but there must be something out there that you would love to have in your driveway?

    Get outside your "Practical" box Lemko. When you were a kid, didn't you have posters of dream cars on your walls? Mine, a 911 SC, and a Merc Gullwing were my faves. But I also had pics of Countach's, 308GTS and ZR-1 Corvettes. Even nowadays, my recording space I have pics of Aston Martin DB-4's and Porsche Spyders. Heck my desktop here at work has a pair of AMV8's decorating my screen. These were "Standards" in my book. Revolutionary, ahead of their time, forward thinking.

    Sorry, I see Caddy's (And Lexus for that matter) as run of the mill, generic transportation with a few perks. Nice cars, but nothing that has the competition shaking in their boots to match or out-do.
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    After reading and seeing this, I do know Cadillac is far closer to the Standard of the World than the naysayers are capable of acknowledging:

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/country/acf/newsID/2061110.009/cadillac/cad- illac-sls-at-auto-china-2006
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...to anything outside a new Cadillac or Buick, it's a classic 1940s, 1950s, or 1960s model. Other cars I would like are something like a 1961-65 Lincoln Continental or even a 1960 Imperial Crown limousine by Ghia. A 1957 Chrysler 300-C would be another choice. I'd also consider just about any 1960s Mopar or GM muscle car. One Mercedes I would truly be comfortable with is something like a 1991 560SEL. This car represents M-B when it was truly at the top of its game.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    I agree with you that Cadillac is turning the ship around slowly. The CTS was/is an okay car. The problem with it is the interior which is blown away by Lexus, Acura, MB, Audi and even BMW. The new STS is a pretty nice car and it has a better interior. Clearly, this is a step forward but Lexus has a new GS, the 5 series has been replaced, and the Infiniti M has been remodeled after only a few unsuccessful model years. Therefore, it seems as if Cadillac is always playing catch up.

    For some reason, I don't think that Cadillac wants to compete with Lexus or BMW. Maybe it is because they feel that they have to price their cars cheaper (after discounts and rebates) than the other luxury brands or maybe they feel that they can't bring in a better car a cheaper price.

    Lastly, I just don't get the DTS. Is Cadillac still trying to lure former Oldsmobile buyers? What is the competition for this car, the Avalon? A person under 40 would not be be caught dead in this car.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The SLS is a step in the right direction, but it also illustrates the contempt that GM and Ford have for their home market. China gets the SLS, Royaum, and a good LaCrosse, while we get underwhelming semi-efforts that seem to exist primarily to keep the dealer network from suing.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Meh. It is no secret that GM is doing well in China. How bout the homeland? The all new STS sales are weak, the SRX bombed, the DTS is the same ol same ol and the CTS is waiting a redo. The XLR is no match for the SL even with the V-series which nobody is going to shell out 6 figures for a Corvette. The Escalade is Caddy's saving grace at the moment because the Rap world and the NBA think Excess + Gaudy = Class.

    Seems to me that if you can't even make it in your home country, you've got a problem.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I'll go you one further: my grandfather is 71 and he said HE wouldn't be caught dead in this car. ;)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The DTS is the last of the FWD Cadillac's. In the mid-eighties GM went to FWD for their large sedans to greatly improve fuel economy. At the time that they were designed, this was a good plan. The DTS will probably continue in production until about 2010, when a replacement might make sense. The replacement will probably be a RWD platform.
  • sidvsidv Member Posts: 64
    I really doubt GM can make Cadillac any sort of meaningful world standard anytime soon. Thirty odd years of bean counter, cars-as-a-commodity mentality ruling the culture instead of pride in making stellar automobiles fueled by innovative engineering has taken its toll. There's just too much negative inertia and the competition has come too far, too fast, since the advent of Lexus and Infiniti and (some) European marque's competitive responses.

    Of course anything is possible given enough time but current dynamics at GM and the market don't bode well for Cadillac making the great strides it would take for Cadillac to become a "world standard", whatever that is.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    was it ever the world standard? If it was, the the answer to will it be again is no....

    Gotta go, I smell 1487 coming........
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Now I seen where you say that others are living in the past when it comes to Cadillac, but you're doing the same thing when it comes to Mercedes.

    The W126 560SEL was a great car, but today's S550 surpasses it any way you could think of. Sure the outgoing W220 S430 wasn't Mercedes at its best, but this ranting about how badly Mercedes has fallen is just as tired and outdated as people harping about wire wheels and cloth tops on Cadillacs.

    You should take a look as the CLS, SL, CL or S-Class, then you'll know that you're living in the past when it comes to Mercedes. The new S and lastest SL have proven (so far with the S) be those very standards that Cadillac doesn't have a chance in hell of matching.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If "Ya, I gotta have one of those!" is the standard, it most definately and truly is Cadillac in my opinion, or if I'm being more sensible - a Buick.

    Clearly a throwback remark. Very few non-GM lifers aspire to own a Cadilac outside of the Escalade and no one outside of GM pep rally aspires to own a Buick. A Buick is an utter and complete joke compared to a Mercedes, BMW and certain Lexi.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Therefore, it seems as if Cadillac is always playing catch up.

    Bingo, Cadillac gave up too much ground and this is what they're stuck doing all the time. The new CTS will prove whether or not they can truly answer the challenge presented by a trio of new cars, the G35, IS350 and 335i. No excuses this time this is the car that is supposed to be more than merely "competitive" with this class, it should have them beat in some areas and be fiercely competitive in others. You can't expect them to build a class leader coming from at best the middle of the class which is where the current CTS resides, well actually its towards the back of the class.

    For some reason, I don't think that Cadillac wants to compete with Lexus or BMW.

    I see what you're saying here, but I disagree. The V-Series models prove they want to been seen as the equal to Mercedes/BMW and the switch to RWD says that also.

    The DTS is an antique. Some GM fans will tell you that this car competes with the Lexus LS, Mercedes S and BMW 7-Series, but they live in a fantasy world. When a competitor has twice as many gears in their tranny its time to call it a day. The DTS is to Cadillac what the ES is to Lexus, a throwback, difference is the ES is more up to day technology wise.

    M
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    Caddy has the technology and the know-how to make worldbeaters, and the next few years will show this.

    As Yogi Berra once said, "It ain't over till its over", and in this case, Caddy has more lives than a cat. :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Caddy has the technology and the know-how to make worldbeaters, and the next few years will show this.

    Yeah we've heard this (excuse) for years now. It is always wait till next year. Competition moves the game onward and then it is yet again wait till next year.

    Seriously though I don't think GM has the funds to make anything special for Cadillac at this point.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    P.S. NV, you know you bought the Navigator, because of the power running boards.

    Not at all, I did just the opposite, I deleted the running boards. Don't care for them. Not functional. But, you're wrong about the Slade having more gagetry than the Navigator. All it has is the big grunt engine, and while we're on that, the 5.4L Triton engine is old and embarrasing? How long has that tired old Northstar been out there unimproved and unrefined? The 5.4L has been brought ont in 2,4 & 3V versions, each more efficient than the last. No, you're right about so much, but not about the Navigator. It's at least as good, in some different ways, albeit, as the Escatahoe. ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Agree 100%. "The Standard of the World" means to me is a collective group cars, trucks, suvs, under one brand that achieves the highest standards, but offers the consumer a great value. One car I will mention now that meets those standards is the Corvette. Simply the best sports-car money can buy. ;) Cadillac, has had individual cars in the past that have been "Standard of the World". One that comes to mind is the 1993' Northstar Cadillac Seville STS. The Northstar in the Seville STS and Eldorado ETC, raised the bar. I remember classmates saying the Cadillac Eldorado ETC was their dream car. Others said the same thing about the Seville STS. I guess we liked them so much because they were fast, had bose stereo systems with CD players, and were sporty lookin'. Now I'm willing to bet their are kids that want to own a Cadillac Escalade SUV and/or EXT. I'm sure their are still some that would like to own a STS, and CTS, not to mention the "V" models. I'm willing to bet the next CTS-V will be a object of desire for the youth. If the STS interior improves dramatically it also could have kids like myself, when I was young wanting a piece of Cadillac.

    So being "The Standard of the World" isn't about being the fastest, most expensive, etc, it boils down to more than that. I'm not saying Cadillac, is currently the
    "Standard of the World" now but I believe in Rick Wagoner, enough that he will have the Cadillac brand back at the top of the mountain once again within 3 year time frame. He will give me a great product that's great enough to at least confidently argue them as being
    "The Standard of the World" brand once again. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    NV, whatever you and I agree often but on this subject we are miles apart. :P

    The Slade, as I proved has more "Gadgetology" then the ExpiGator. You can look away from the 800lb Gorilla but NV, he's still standing their right in front of you pal. :D

    Rocky

    P.S. The Northstar has had like 3-4 makeovers in its lifetime. The latest was adding VVT to it in 2005. I do agree GM, needs to add direct injection to it and/or make a brand new Northstar.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I'll have to wait for 2010 when Cadillac, (hopefully) puts the DTS on a RWD/AWD platform. Right now, I'm happy with my current Seville STS. I'm 41 and I like the current DTS' styling, but I'm waiting for an updated powertrain.

    As for 8 gears in the Lexus LS460? That alone would frighten me away from the car. It's a darn passenger car, not a semi tractor! If that transmission goes out of warranty, one better take out a second mortgage and repent their sins. Transmission specialists everywhere will be sending their kids to Ivy League schools.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    > "GM pep rally, very few non-GM lifers, utterand complete joke"

    You sound like a GM hater. Do you have a study with data on this or are you living in the past after problems with vehicles in the 80s or 90s?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    LOL, I bet that 8-speeder is expensive to fix. ;)

    Rocky
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