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Comments
It bothers me that Toyota would rather hide a problem and risk lives than admit a mistake and fix it. Makes you wonder how many other things they have swept under the rug.
I do wonder if the driver attempted to put the vehicle in neutral, and if not, why not? Highway patrolmen and police officers undergo rigorous driving training, so I don't think anyone could say he was a novice driver or likely to panic in an emergency situation.
1. I browsed through the NHSTA records for a half-a-dozen vehicles of different makes. Uncontrolled acceleration was reported for almost all of them. The only exception was VW CC, probably, just because there are not many of them on the streets.
2. In old pre-electronic times, stepping on the gas pedal instead of brakes was a very, very common driver's error. Nobody contested that, since there just were no other way around. Nowadays, everything is reported as "Uncontrolled Acceleration".
3. There is both formal and anectodal evidence of consumers having issues with other electronic components (ABS, traction control, brake assist) on a variety of vehicles.
This can be seen in two ways:
a) Drivers' errors still constitute, probably, at least part of reported cases;
b) Just like any electronics, all automotive electronic components may unpredictably malfunction, whatever the vehicle. Of course, if some of them fares worse than average, it should be rigorously investigated.
Now, it would be crucial to have real statistics on all those issues.
All that being said, it has been my impression that Toyota is one of the most user-unfriendly companies in this market at all stages of the ownership experience: information, buying/leasing, maintenance, warranty support.
Curious, do you recall if your cruise control was engaged??
What NHTSA has to look for is an abnormal/large percentage of certain models that are affected. Those should stand out. Hence the importance of everyone who experiences the problem reporting it officially.
I follow the Mazda threads also and a Miata owner was talking about maybe having experienced this - perhaps it is headline news and this is the first thing people will point to if/when it happened to them.
No one mentions cell phone use in their thread, but we may be experiencing a new
phenomenon- call it DRIVE BY CELL PHONES, where someone in the vicinity of
the vehicle just made a phone call on their CELL PHONE which operates in the US
on 824 to 894MHz or a half-wave length of 7". Any FM antenna of this length would
be "Tuned" to receive this signal. Can you guess where there's wire conductor of
this length in the COCKPIT of a Toyota? Try a turn signal arm connected directly to
the CRUISE CONTROL. NHTSA is testing the Smith's Lexus but will NOT find out
much because they'd have to acquire her ACTUAL Cell Phone that she used when
God Intervened AND test the ACTUAL ph.no. she dialed. As for the runaway police
cruiser, I hear a passenger dialed 911. They sent an RF signal of 112 & 118 along
with the 911 as the international distress signals. Cruise Control CPU used [non-permissible content removed]'s
Fuzzy Logic to ignore the 911- didn't make sense, but accepted the instructions
to accelerate to 112mph, then on to 118mph. Again, you'd have to have ACTUAL
Cell Phone to prove this out but unfortunately that takes COMMON SENSE
which ain't that common anymore
can you do it in english please?
2. Any solutions of this kind (as well as the widely touted override of accelerator by the brake pedal) are not definitive by their nature. They are actually fighting faulty electronics by more electronics. Extra electronics may either fail too, or just be ignored by the already faulty control system.
Don't ask me for a solution, I don't know. I like the hypothesis about cell phone interference (post #161): if correct, and all cell phones/PDAs/DVDs were banned, we may solve two problems at once ;-). Also, cell phones contribute for sure in a different manner, by greatly increasing driver's errors (such as pressing the accelerator instead of brakes).
This is a EASY fix, all it takes is to add a pressure sensor to the gas pedal and program the ECM and it won't matter what device is the problem or even any device that is added later on to become a problem.
1. If we assume that TPS fails, why wouldn't the pressure sensor fail at some point too?
2. Now, you are saying that not only the "no pressure" must be detected (which would disable cruise control where there is also no pressure), but also it must be compared to the status of the brake pedal ("applied"). It is already not a simple input, and should be processed by ECM (see below).
3. The whole point is that most people suspect the real problem is the failure of ECM itself. Whether it is a software bug or a hardware failure. If ECM malfunctions for whatever reason, it may well ignore the input from the pressure sensor, no matter how do you program it.
What would be really simple, at least temporarily, while the problem is not found, is to put a big pink handle/button somewhere which would activate (mechanically or electrically) a valve cutting fuel off. But even then I believe there will be many people alleging they pressed it with no effect on acceleration.
I send another reply to toyota after a 800 dollar bill to replace parts, i will never own another piece of crap that toyota puts out, they should be put out of business and we should all buy american.
CTS is also an american company.
have had BlueTooth installed? Have any that have not had
BlueTooth installed had the same issue of going out of control?
Are all cars that have gone out of control from a large metro
area or had recently before the out of control issue been
through a large metro area?
http://jalopnik.com/5488464/the-mechanics-of-abc-news-unintended-toyota-accelera- tion-hoax
Leave it up to the media to sensationalize it.
Autoblog showed a close-up of the interior where the tach ran to redline. The car was in park, no seatbelt was on, the parking brake was engaged, and in the reflection you could see the door was wide open.
The news stated that he tried EVERYTHING when speaking to the 911 dispatcher. I would be that shifting into Neutral was one of them. (didn't say)
However, this is not the first time that I heard that shifting into Neutral did NOT work. Is the shifter "throttle by wire" also? In other words, is it purely an electronic system where the position of the shifter engages an electronic control of the transmission? If so, then shifting to Neutral may be all for naught as the "ghost in the machine" overrides that command and continues with the acceleration.
We have a 2008 Sienna Limited AWD. Really getting concerned...
1. How is the accelerator any different for the Sienna than the recalled models?
2. Apparently, latest reports are that the recall fix does not work.
3. Neutral may not work.
I saw an interview with him and he admitted that shifting to neutral was NOT attempted, though he explained that he was under pressure and not thinking straight.
The dispatcher actually did make the suggestion, but he did NOT try a shift to neutral.
I heard the 911 call and an interview with the driver, who openly admits this.
To be very clear, some car mags have tested it and :
NUETRAL DOES WORK.
"Is there a way for you to take the car out of gear".
He didn't respond to that, instead saying:
"I can't hold the *** **** phone!"
So he may have put the phone down, but definitely did not hear that advice.
The police officer pulled up next to him and gave the following instructions in order:
* put the foot on the brake pedal
* push emergency brake
* press Off button
Later, in interviews, he confirmed that he did not attempt to put it in Neutral.
The 911 Operator had it right, but he couldn't hear that instruction.
The cop should have said HOLD the off button, not just press. And he never gave the instruction to try Neutral.
I'm a bit shocked that with all the attention on this case the driver and police officer didn't know to try that.
Cop says he had the idea to try both the brakes and the emergency brakes, nothing about shifting to Neutral.
Where is the bang-head emotorcon?
The driver also said he "hit" the off button. He should have held it for 3 seconds.
At one point the driver says the pedal was "stuck", but we'll see.
PS Toyota sales were way up with the financing incentives, Edmunds is estimating +30% for the month, so plenty of people do not agree with you.
Interesting read.
Search NHTSA and you'll find complaints of sudden acceleration for virtually all models. Someone here looked and found 6 of 7 cars had such complaints.
The one that didn't? VW Passat CC, which has the same override that the 2011 Sienna has. VW/Audi was raked through the coals by the media when they were accused, so they added this. The proof it worked is in NHTSA ODI database of complaints - there are none.
If anything, the new Sienna is a safe bet specifically because they added that features, and most competitors don't.
Victor, you called it, you're a genius!
Sikes is a total SCAM artist:
* his Prius does have brakes that override the throttle
* the guy is 3/4rs of a million dollars in debt
* he still owes $19,000 to Toyota
* Sikes has a history of items in his possession being stolen and him filing for insurance claims
* Sikes owned and operated a web site called AdultSwingLife.com.
* There's also a report from KTLX with a neighbor stating he may have been involved in the porn industry.
And the funny thing is so many people believed his story!
C'mon, he can't hear the 911 operator telling him to take it out of gear, yet he has a full conversation with him? He heard everything else.
And why did it top out at 90? Al Gore Jr. got his Prius to much higher speeds, 100+.
This proves the anti-Toyota bias. If you believed the story, well, it's probably because you wanted to believe it.
The smart folks (victor and myself, possibly a few others) were skeptical from the beginning.
Be prepared - there will be more scam artists/oportunists trying the same sort of hoax.
Next time maybe people won't jump at the chance to believe a porn industry scam artist debtor over an automotive manufacturer.
Personally I find this story absolutely HILARIOUS!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/top_three/article_5639c4f4-2f24-11df-b17- 2-001cc4c002e0.html
I am a software designer and tester, who prides himself on the ability to break software. I do not own a Toyota, but I believe I have a handle on what is going on with this issue. I have called Toyota AND e-mailed them, asking them to contact me, but I have not heard from them which is why I am on this forum. I guess Toyota has their hands full right now.
This problem has track marks of a software glitch all over it. This is of course is only a theory, but I believe it is one that makes good sound logical sense. Bertha06, you mentioned that the cruise control was not engaged. The fact that it was engaged or not may be irrelevant, for I believe the issue IS with the cruise control system.
Acceleration and throttle sticking are two COMPLETELY different phenomenons. There are literally thousands of reason for a throttle to stick, but not that many for the car to accelerate. For an event to be triggered (i.e. acceleration) there must be either (1) an outside stimulus such as something pressing on the peddle, such as your foot or floor mat or (2) A system that is designed for the computer to accelerate the car, but is faulty. The only system designed to accelerate a vehicle is the 'Resume' or the 'Maintain speed' functions on the cruise control.
So here is the million dollar question, as it were. What would happen if the car's computer was confused about what state it was in, meaning cruise control ON or cruise control OFF?
There are things in software called Variables that hold pieces of data. For a cruise control, I imagine there are not too many variables. There would be a variable to store whether the cruise control is either On or Off, fairly straight forward. There would be another variable that would store what the currently set speed in MPH, so that the car could maintain that speed. Probably many more than that, but for our discussions those two are the most pertinent. There are also things called Functions in a program, which is basically a block of code designed to do 'Something'. For example, there would be a function to change the state from on to off and off to on and another function to set the speed of the cruise control. Each individual action for the cruise control system most likely has its own block of code in a Function to control that. Lastly, variables can either be Global (meaning accessed universally by all functions) or Local (meaning hidden to all except the function the variable was defined in).
So if the cruise control was actually ON, but some of the local variables within these functions considered the system OFF, some very dangerous malfunctions could occur. For example, if the Resume function was engaged, then the car would accelerate on its own. HUGE RED FLAG HERE. There would be a brake function where when you tap the breaks it disengages the Cruise Control. This function might only be called, if the Cruise Control is actually ON. SO, if the braking function thinks the system is OFF, but it is really ON, then the brake function to disengage the Cruise Control would not be run.
This is similar to a Three way switch for a hallway light. Normally, flip the switch up and its on and down and its off. But on a three way switch, it changes depending on what you have done with the third switch and you can't tell whether you are flipping the circuit on or off. This would also be a reason why they are not able to find the problem. Ironically, the system is working as it should, hence no diagnostics would uncover it. The system is working appropriately to the state it THINKS the cruise control is in.
How could the state of the Cruise Control become screwed up like this? Well quite simply, an event happened that the Software designers did not plan for. Perhaps, something physical such as the cruise control was on and the car stalled for some reason. Perhaps, something happened that disconnected power from the battery to the computer, i.e. battery died, cables disconnected, short in the system, etc. Perhaps it was something in the code (a bug) that switched the state of the Cruise control when it shouldn't have. Weird things happen sometimes when unintended actions are performed during run-time. For example, two buttons were pushed at the same time. The number of things that can trigger a software glitch like this are too numerous to count.
If the State of the cruise control IS the problem, Toyota must first test the software by purposely setting the variables to a wrong state and observe the affects. If they trigger the anomaly, then they at least know they have cornered the problem. Then the software engineers have somewhere to look to find what is screwing up the state of the system.
I have no ties to Toyota, in fact I'm the Community Leader for the Subaru Crew, which is ironic.
I own a Sienna but my daily driver is a Miata. I've been here on Edmunds for more than a decade and met dozens of Edmunds members at various events, so I have no hidden agenda.
For what it's worth, yes, I do recall your story was well before the recent publicity.
They are up for MARCH, not February, MARCH.
The incentive I reference began on March 1, how could I have been talking about February?
You owe me an apology.
Quote from Automotive News:
Toyota's U.S. sales surged 40 percent in the first 10 days of March
In hindsight, it was silly to claim that the brakes could not stop the car, but the brakes and the parking brake could.
Parking brakes are weak and would hardly have any influence at all in stopping a 90+mph vehicle.
Pretty funny.
The media gave Sikes front-page news status, and everyone saw that, but will we see a front page story retracting those claims?
I doubt it.
Will SNL spoof...themselves?
I guess what bugs me is when it happens to GM (Dateline's rigged explosion of the gas tanks) the media issues a huge apology, but when it's an import brand (Audi, now Toyota) that'll never happen.
Couldn't find it on YouTube, even via search. If anyone else does please share a link.
We, humanity, are pretty much corrupted, but I hope not to this degree yet. Could some of us have points of view and defend them even though not being paid? Those who can, thank you for still doing that!
How 'bout some jokes to ligthen the mood?
Ya heard the new movie Mr. Sikes is working on?
It's called Unintended Insemination.
1. 52 fatalities are *possibly* connected to the problem of unintended acceleration. This means, according to the currently official statistics which I've seen somewhere, that either 8 or 12 are confirmed (I can't recall the exact figure), and the rest are still under investigation, if they are connected or not. Of those ~12, it is never said what was the cause of acceleration (electronics, mat, pedal, human error, acts of God, etc). The "drivers who have experienced the nightmare" are numerous, but by no means "countless".
2. Yes, this was in 2002. long before the current extensive media exposure. And, mind you, long before the electronic throttle control was used on that car, when the number of reports surged. So, we have a regular mechanic throttle, an elderly driver, and ... do you really believe in the mat or pedal explanations? Still there is room for electronics involvement, like cruise control (post #188), but what are the chances of a driver's error?
Well, yes. My another car is 6-cyl Honda Accord. Every morning I start it cold and immediately pull out of my driveway, and it is pretty frightening when I am a bit distracted and don't remember to keep composure. Such a violent leap forward. But I am even more disturbed by "unintended deceleration" when that car downshifts during gentle braking at traffic lights. I even blamed the electronic brake assist at first. You know, poor workman always quarrels with his tools...
Duplicate the failure, Analyze the real cause, develop & implement the fix and test it again on Many samples that have the Actual failure.
The unintended acceleration (UA) has happened in many lines of Toyota cars in various scenarios. The main difficult issue is the UA is NOT REPEATABLE. So, the right thing for Toyota and Edmund.com to do is collecting the cars that has MANY UAs happened. Then, there is a chance that the UA can be repeated and observed/analyzed. There are many possible causes for a failure. It is not a good idea to imagine a way that the UA can happen. It has to be the real/actual cause to verify and develop the specific solution.
Toyota never shows the intention to buy back the defective vehicles for investigation & fix like I describe above. The same for Edmund.com to make the $1M prize worth its value.
The odds of this happening are extremely small. For my 2007 model year, there are about 3 times more complaints for the Odyssey, for instance.