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Check out the Fusion/Milan problems and solutions board.
mschmal, "Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Maintenance & Repair" #1, 7 Mar 2007 8:51 am
I started this forum back in March of 07 and there are ALREADY 34 posts!
Mark
2009 Dodge Ram
kcram - Pickups Host
Overall, nothing in the new Dodge will be compelling GM & Ford & Tundra owners to switch, but they may capture a few new buyers due to the more car like ride and nice interior.
1offroader
I'm not commenting about which is better, just pointing out the true numbers.
Throw that in and suddenly the numbers dont look so great.
Anything that big is going to be only so pretty. The '08 Sierra I just bought isn't going to win a beauty contest either but it's attractive enough.
The old Dodge Ram front end was great when it came out but it desperately needs to be freshened. Not sure I like the new slanting grill as well but, overall, the truck looks more streamlined thus better to me.
The interior looks okay but not as nice as the F-150's it is copying wholesale, IMHO. Of course, I'm judging by photos.
Personally, I like the idea of lockable dry storage on the sides of the truck though I understand the complaints from folks who'll put a shell on it. Vaguely reminds me of the Ridgeline (now that's an ugly truck!) that has a compartment in the bed floor. Of course, it's useless if you are hauling anything that'll cover it. Still features like that are nice because secure dry storage is always a problem without expensive add-ons.
All in all a nice job. The full-size pick-up truck market keeps getting more and more competitive. A good thing.
Chevrolet Silverado 367hp 6.0 liter V-8
Dodge Ram 380hp 5.7 liter V-8
Ford F-150 300hp 5.4 liter V-8 2008
Gmc Sierra Denali 403hp 6.2 liter V-8
Nissan Titan 317hp 5.6 liter V-8
Toyota Tundra 381hp 5.7 liter V-8
My in-laws bought a Ridgeline and after driving it for several days it is a very nice light duty vehicle. It rides and handles very well. It gets very good fuel economy. It has a fair amount of payload capacity and the in bed trunk is great to use. The standard auto 4wd and available 5,000 pound towing capacity is perfect for the average truck buyer. The frame and unibody structure combined give it a very stiff chassis.
Weak points are bed length, interior appearance, and pricey for the entry level model. I suspect they will play with the design soon and spice it up a bit. The late model Pontiac GTO's were very competent sleeper cars and excelled in what they did but they were too conservative in their styling. The Ridgeline may be too much of an exercise in molded plastics and metal left in the sun too long. Its a difficult balance to get right when you want to stand out.
The Ram styling will be liked, eventually. Hell, i still think the 98 Taurus was so far ahead of its time it still looks futuristic today, even the wagon version. Too bad it was a trans eating, electrical gremlin nightmare. Oh, and people still think it was ugly too.
The F-150 has capacities creeping up also.
I think that the cost increase on the 08 Super Duty vs. the 07 and the extra capacity of the 2009 F-150 is going to allow customers who previously needed the Super Duty to get the job done to stick with the F-150.
Incidently, the reason that HP wasn't released as in part to give something Ford to talk about at the next auto show.
Mark.
I know you're a Ford guy in some capacity and I would appreciate your opinion. I still don't understand the limited availability of the 3050 payload package. Seems to me that would be perfect for what you are suggesting and probably heavy enough for many F250 buyers. As I remember this was first marketed a few years ago to make the F150 a great towing vehicle for lighter duty trailers. I've had two F150's set up like this and they are a perfect compromise of comfort and capacity. I know it's all about numbers and potential markets, not to mention the fact that Ford makes more money on F250's. There are some of us that prefer the ride and comfort of the F150. What do you think?
Also, with the 4.10 rear you are loosing a little fuel econ.
Mark.
In addition, I know coil springs are much less able to take a beating compared to leaf springs. Ever have the springs in your car break?
Anyone have insight into this? What was Dodge thinking? Or is Dodge only trying to cater to the people who "use their truck like a car"?
Mark.
BTW, you're flat out wrong about leaf vs coil springs. Oshkosh, the maker of huge severe-duty trucks for the military and airport service makes trucks, not only with coil springs all around, but also IFS/IRS and AWD. It's just a matter of time before this technology trickles down to consumer vehicles, and at realistic prices.
http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/defense/products~wtanker~home.cfm
http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/defense/products~lvsr~home.cfm
http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/airportmunicipal/products~striker~home.cfm
Bob
Sorry to disagree with you. I do agree that coils can be made to be very heavy duty, but doing so destroys the reason they would be used on a 1/2-ton, which is ride quality. Coils also require panhard bars and trailing arms to keep the rear diff from moving sideways and front-to-back. Leafs are bolted directly from the diff to frame and don't need all that extra junk. Also, panhard bars and trailing arms travel in an arc, which means overall generally less travel than leaf springs in the same application. Trucks are supposed to have a lot of travel, due to the varying loads they are required to carry and extreme road conditions they encounter.
Dodge is using coils due to improved ride quality, so you can bet they aren't extreme heavy duty springs. They also don't expect the truck to carry heavy loads, needing a lot of rear travel.
For many people, esp. those who value a softer ride and who use the truck bed to carry light loads on occasion, the coils will be fine. But for those who use their trucks as trucks, they will move away from Dodge.
Dodge is making a big bet on a change in their demographic. If they're right, they'll gain a few sales. If not, they'll become a distant 4th in sales, behind Tundra. There is a lot at stake for Dodge.
1offroader
The Ram's rear suspension is a beefed version of the design used in the current Grand Cherokee - and no one seems to be complaining about the GC's abilities off-road in terms of travel or articulation.
kcram - Pickups Host
Can you show the readers anywhere in the post that I said "...Ram's rear coils won't work"? Of course they will "work". What I said is that they are not the best rear spring for what a truck is supposed to do. Rear coils aren't some sort of magic technology. Dodge did not invent something great and new. What sort of "new technology" are you referring to, exactly? As you said yourself, GM had them 40 years ago. If they were superior, truck makers would have been using them all along. They use rear leafs because that is the rear spring design that has been shown to be superior, time after time, for the full range of hauling/towing/working/pulling that truck owners do.
Rear coils are used in cars with a live rear axle. Rear coils are used in SUVs where the short rearend overhang will not allow a leaf spring to be used, and because SUVs are not designed to haul or tow heavy loads. Rear coils are used in applications where ride quality is paramount.
Rear leafs are used in vehicles designed to maximize towing and hauling. Is there any serious doubt about that?
You can't be serious about comparing the overall capability of a Grand Cherokee and a full size Ram pickup. That's just ridiculous. The GC is built to do a small fraction of what the Ram can do. No one's complaining because no GC owner can tow 8,000 lbs. safely, or haul 2,000 lbs. safely in the bed, and they're not stupid enough to try it in the first place.
Time will tell, but I predict that current Ram owners who use their trucks for big, heavy work will look elsewhere when it comes time to buy new. They may be outnumbered by buyers who've never had a truck before, and don't use it hard. It's a BIG gamble for Dodge.
1offroader
To the best of my knowledge, Dodge is using rear coils only on 1500 series trucks. I expect 2500 and 3500 models, when they're introduced the following year, will continue to use rear leaf springs.
As to your assertion that if rear coils were so good, that truck makers would have been using them for year. Well, my take is this:
As KC mentioned, suspension technology has come a long way. Second, I have no doubt that coils can be made to "work" as well if not better than leaf springs. The problem is—and you're a perfect example of this—is convincing truck customers that it's possible. Truck buyers are notoriously conservative, and are very slow to accept new ideas. The truck makers know this. So they too have been slow to change.
Taking this discussion even one step further, Ford, Nissan and now Toyota have moved to IRS on their full-size SUVs. Now that IRS has proven itself on those vehicles, it's only a matter of time before we see this being used on a 1/2-ton pickup truck; and once it proves itself on a 1/2-ton, it will show up on 3/4-ton models. That's the way progress happens—and it will happen, eventually. Remember... 50 years ago IFS was unheard of on pickups. Now they're all using IFS.
The trick is coming up with new technology—and being able to "time it" with customer acceptance. Automotive history is littered with marketing failures—not because the ideas were bad, but rather because they were just too far advanced for the market at that time in history. Remember the Chrysler Airflow from the mid 1930s? A great idea, but an utter marketing failure because car buyers just weren't ready for aerodynamic styling 75 years ago.
Bob
What exactly is this "new technology" you refer to as it relates to rear coil springs? The technology is quite old. It has been tried. It works fine on lighter duty applications, less well on heavier duty applications. To look at the extremes, show me a Kenworth or a Peterbuilt with rear coils. Ain't happenin'. I love new technology, I am no Luddite. But, more importanly, I like what works.
You say you have "no doubt" that rear coils can be made to work as well or better than rear leafs. What do you base your assertion on? Facts, or opinion? A long history of owning a heavy duty truck with rear coils? No, the real problem is me and others like me, just not open minded enough to get with the program. Maybe you're right - I don't like being the guinea pig who needs to be "convinced" to try what hasn't been successfully done. I'll hang back and wait for others to test it out, then if it works, I'll buy. If not, I get the last laugh.
Full size SUVs use IRS because sales and marketing show that buyers of these vehicles prize ride comfort over hauling and towing. SUVs are the new minivan. Minivans are 'out', SUVs are 'in'. Minivans are for fuddy-duddies, but SUVers want that comfy ride, too. Rear coils allow the rear axle to move farther back without increasing the overall length of the vehicle. A longer wheelbase and rear coils means a better ride.
I have a Trooper with IRS/rear coils. It's a fine vehicle for what it is but it won't do what my Silverado will do, in terms of work, and I don't expect it to.
I'll go way out on a limb here. Rear coils in full size 1/2 ton trucks will not catch on. The next iteration of the Ram will go back to rear leaf springs, and they will claim it as a big improvement over the 'older' model. Dodge will rediscover the amazing new technology of rear leaf springs for heavy duty truck applications!
1offroader
Check out the Oshkosh truck links I provided earlier. Those trucks are as heavy duty as an Peterbuilt or Kenworth out there—and they use coils and fully independent suspensions.
As to Dodge reverting back to leaf springs, I'll take that bet. In fact I bet that coil springs on the Ram is just the first of many such applications on full-size pickups.
I will also bet that the new coil spring Ram 1500 will be fully competitive with leaf spring 1/2-tons. Note: I didn't say it would be the best—but fully competitive.
No I don't expect you to be a guinea pig, as you're a classic, old-school truck buyer. Newer and younger (folks who are more open and accepting of new ideas) will eventually replace folks such as yourself. Whatever happened to Caddy Fleetwood buyers? Their equally wealthy children are now buying CTSs, etc. Time marches on...
Let's revisit this conversation in 10 years and see who's right.
Bob
Folks that work them farms and such, be using them coils in tractors and such for 100 years now! And how bout them trains? Yep... coils in them ones too!
This aint no trick photo... them coils is used big and small now...
Learn up on them coils here now...
Good luck on this one now!
Bob
Now, combine what you saw in the video, the 2009 F-150 highlights, and Toyota's history. Toyota will fix all these flaws with time (but probably faster than Big3 would). The F-150 updates are merely cosmetic, with the exception of new trailer package. Finally, Toyota's history teaches us they ruthlessly pursue their target and don't let up until they capture it. If they want the "working" truck market AND Big3 sits on their laurels, Tundra will beat them all. Someday.
Ford, you are screwing up by not investing heavily in product. Make Toyota chase you instead of fearing what's in your rearview mirror. Toyota will catch you and crush you (and your Number 1 product) it you don't.
As for Big3, they are still better as Real trucks than the Tundra, for now. I drove the 2008 Tundra and Sierra Denali. The Tundra drove like hell. The GMC Sierra was far superior. I will buy the GMC, after previously buying a total of 4 Toyota's. The Tundra is far from sorted out, and uses crappy materials inside.
Bob says that the Ram will be competitive, but not class leading. I totally agree, Bob. The Ram is already not class leading, it's in 3rd. It will soon be in 4th IMO. But in this business, if you aren't out in front you are losing sales. Like the old saying goes, "If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes." If Dodge doesn't do something soon, instead of looking at the rumps of just GM and Ford, it will also be looking at the Tundra's rump. Not a good long-term view, IMO. I'd like to see Dodge open a big ol' can of whupass in the full size market, but apparently they folded and instead took the easy route.
Ram is clearly going for the lighter duty, softer riding market. What will be the impact on sales of that change in strategy? How about addressing that original point? Isn't this the thread to discuss sales leaders? Am I missing something?
Here's what I want in my next 1/2 ton 4x4 truck:
small v-8 diesel w/250 hp, 400 ft lbs., and 25+ mpg hiway
really nice interior, comfy seats, like the GMs currently have
robust, proven drive train parts
auto rear locker, front air locker
optional factory offroad pkg. incl. a mild lift (2"-3"), larger wheels and tires
Build that truck and I, and a bunch of guys, would stand in line to buy it.
1offroader
The new 2009 Ford F-150’s “smart” features turn the half-ton pickup truck into an even more skillful tool.
Industry-exclusive features:
SIRIUS Travel Link™ for real-time data on traffic, weather, fuel prices and more
Tailgate Step makes access to the bed easier
Integrated Box Side Step makes accessing the front of the box easier
Easy Fuel™ capless fuel filler system
Ford SYNC™ in-car communications system that allows hands-free operation of MP3 and cell phones
Class-exclusive features:
Trailer Sway Control
Integrated Trailer Brake Controller
Power running boards
Sony premium audio system
Most comprehensive safety package on any full-size pickup, including standard AdvanceTrac with Roll Stability Control, standard side curtain air bags, Ford’s Personal Safety System, and a hydro-formed high-strength steel body structure that improves roof strength.
6-inch stretch to SuperCrew features a fully-flat load floor
Stowable bed extender
Strongest cargo management system
The wheel is not reinvented but there is enough new stuff there that I think people will be trading in old ones sooner than they planed.
Mark
Bob
The half-ton pickup customer is also not the same person from 40 years ago. This is the guy who used to buy full-size LTD and Caprice station wagons - those are not available any longer. He needs a back seat for the family but doesn't really care about an 8-foot bed because it won't fit in the garage. The bed is more appealing than the full-size SUV because he doesn't have to keep it clean. So now we have a selection of crew cab half-tons with beds around 5' 6" or so for these people. The commercial buyers are getting away from half-tons because the manufacturers have "consumerized" them... and a base 250/2500 is no longer a price problem.
In today's market, Dodge may have a better focus on what will actually sell, compared to Toyota's number-bragging. If you need to tow 10,000 pounds, do you want a truck that will be at its limits, or are you going to make the safer smarter choice and buy a 3/4 ton that offers a healthy margin above that?
kcram - Pickups Host
Trailer Sway Control
Not so fast, Mark... from the 09 Ram press kit:
---
Trailer Sway Control System: Reduces trailer sway and improves handling in adverse towing conditions caused by crosswinds and traffic. Software monitors the vehicle’s movement relative to the driver’s intended path, then applies brake pressure to slow the vehicle and increases the pressure on one front wheel to counteract sway induced by the trailer
---
If not at the same time, all the manufacturers will have these same features within a year. It's going to come down to design and price for most buyers.
kcram - Pickups Host
Most 1/2-tons today are family vehicle substitutes—that can take on weekend chores when needed. That's why we're seeing so many 1/2-ton crew cab versions. A 1/2-ton crew cab was unheard of a decade ago.
Yeah, the new Ram 1500 will probably ride and handle better than other 1/2-tons because of the coil springs. Dodge has stated it will have a payload and towing capabilities of the outgoing models. I see that as a win-win situation.
Bob
Mark, perhaps I was a little harsh on the F-150, but Serious improvements to the F-150 drivetrain are still needed. That would include more power from the 5.4L V8 and a 6 spd automatic. I drove the 5.4L and it sure didn't feel like 300 HP; it was slow. I drove a 4.6L to the CA high desert, and it felt reasonably quick. It turned into a high speed run to get it back to the rental place (85 MPH for 60 miles). Handled with confidence.
The F-150 drove much better than the '07 Tundra, & similar to my '00 Tundra (not a Real truck). It can be had with waaaay nicer interior than the '07 Tundra. BUT, I do not want another under-powered truck (did I forget to mention that the '00 Tundra doesn't breathe and power is really lacking). 350 HP and 6 spd is what I want, and I think that's what a lot of people want.
A car-savy buddy bought a new Sequoia (no, not an oxymoron). He "ooo's & ahhhs" about the 375 HP and 6 spd. IMHO, Ford needed these things badly to compete. Failing this could really hurt upcoming sales. Hope they can survive this decision.
[management] So... what are we going to do with the Ram? We keep getting ranked last in magazine articles and it ain't gettin' any younger!
[accounting] Well if we spend as much on a redesign as Ford and GM, but only sell half the units, we'll just continue to fall behind in profits.
[marketing] We need to pull a play out of our history books and make a bold statement. I say we swing for the fences! If we win big the company will be saved. (If not I've got a cousin at Toyota - hehehe.)
[consumer research] The new trend these days is recreational trucks. Nobody actually does hauling anymore. If we make it more comfortable maybe we can pull in more new customers than we lose old ones? You know, like the Ridgeline...
[engineering] Let's put coil springs on the back. It won't cost any more and its on the bottom of the truck where most people won't notice the change. It'll improve the ride for everyone with an empty bed.
[management] Something for nothing, eh? Sounds good to me. Proceed!
Anyone who pulls trailers on a regular basis knows that it is stability not horsepower that limits speed (unless you're going up a very steep hill). Ford's idea of combining the electronics of roll control, traction control and brake control to manage trailer stability is the single best feature of this new F-150, and puts them one up on the others (at least temporarily).
Ford's marketing is also spot on in coming up with new premium editions. Again, because the typical half ton buyer today has more income than people expect, it's not just penniless cowboys anymore. The half ton has replaced the traditional large, rear drive Detroit sedan as the family vehicle of choice in many suburban and rural markets, hence the popularity of crew cabs. Crew cabs are also replacing large SUVs since they now offer as much comfort and luxury; more practicality and better towing. It was the 04 F150 that finally brought trucks to parity w/large sedans and SUVs in terms of comfort, luxury and driving dynamics.
True, the new F150 is an evolution of the 2004 model, not a radical revolution but the 2004 redo simply moved pickup truck comfort and smoothness one level higher for the industry than before and the new pickups from GM and Toyota were playing catch up in these dimensions.Since Ford has the largest market share all it needs to do is to prevent owners from switching to GM or Toyota on their next purchase. (I have yet to meet any truck owner that switched from Ford to Dodge or Nissan). This 2009 update is enough of a move to parity w/GM/Toyota on the most important features. To get the lead, Ford will have to introduce a good half ton clean diesel engine. I doubt that many buyers, except urban commuters, will find a boosted V-6 appealing in this segment even with a fuel economy improvement. But it will be good PR.
Horsepower and payload/towing numbers are more important in the 3/4 ton, 1 ton markets and here Ford has to work harder on its Super Dutys. The 6 liter diesel engine fiasco made some people switch to GM and to Dodge (more due to Dodge's Cummins diesel engine despite the rest of the truck). But where I live, which is one of the continent's number one truck markets, the Ford 250/350 still outsells GM and Dodge by a wide margin.
The typical long time truck buyer is VERY conservative. They have the highest brand loyalty in the automotive industry.
That's why the leaders: Ford/GM can play it much more conservative than the other 3 challengers, who have to try different things just to get noticed.
The economies of scale that Ford has w/the F150 also allow it to drive prices down along the model cycle. Don't look at MSRPs, look at actual sales and lease deals at the dealership. Ford is more aggressive in these areas than GM in the half tons, and the other 3 don't have the e.o.s. to drive prices down in the cycle. Where I live you c/d get a 07 F150 for almost $100 less on similar lease terms compared to GM, and Toyota dealers weren't even trying to compete.
Ford knows that the whole industry is looking at their F150 sales numbers and this is one thing they will fight tooth and nail to preserve, with prices if need be.
Too bad, Ford doesn't have its act together in cars as much as it has in trucks.