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Saturn S-Series: code p0101
moparmania
Member Posts: 9
I have a 2002 SL1 and keep getting the p0101 code (misfire on cyl 1 and code p0507 idle high for engine situation). I changed the plugs to platnium and new plug wires, also, swapped the coils. I checked the compression all cyls are okay. When I pull the 1 cyl plug wire the engine doesn't hardly react unlike if I pull any other plug wires. since it is only happening in cyl 1 I am assume it is a fuel injector? it idles around 1300 and you can hear it missing at the tail pipe, however when I turn on the A/C the idle goes down to about 900 and smoothes out, and then you pull the plug wire on cyl 1 and it reacts like you any of the other cyls with the wire pulled. Any suggestions?????????
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If you don't get a response here, you might try posting over in Got a Quick Technical Question? on the Maintenance & Repair board.
1. As the car idles/starts fine cold, and runs smooth during fast idle, the operation is fundamentally fine. With hood opened, just when the AIR system blower is commanded to stop and the IAC closes on same command (coming off fast idle), misfire occurs. Likely too rich, not enough air for that gas dose. As we have waste spark, the spark also happens on exhaust, combined with exhaust heat, the charge is burned, for that "pop".
2. Cyl-1 is at far end of the intake manifold, and gets least air givent he straight design, so if there is air starvation, cyl-1 gets the least air and richest mix. A general problem of too rich would show up first here.
3. When A/C or fast idle is commanded-on, the IAC opens to let more air in, and the fuel dose may be different, settling matters.
4. Throttle position switch is also suspect: if it fails to tell PCM that it is in idle, system may try to operate in close-loop control and the mix will falter at low rpm.
The readily accessible IAC is likely problem as I exhibit some on and off gas during deceleration, suggesting that the IAC is oscillating, let in more air as it should, and then not, etc.
The signal from PCM is duty cycled, so even at idle speed, it suggests that the total air delivery is part via the set screw path, and the balance of air flow via the duty cycled IAC. (IOW, idle air flow is not a stay-closed IAC and the idle screw path all the air it needs for idle). This gives the PCM some ability to control idle speed between the Drive (loaded) or in Park (unloaded) modes. But if IAC sticks and sluggish, and not letting its share of air thru, misfire is to be expected. Normal intake manifolds, especially with throttle body injection (as well as carbed cars) use centrally located inlet for even flow to the cylinders. Saturn uses simple manifold... air comes in from cyl-4 end and with straight manifold, air is the least at the distant cyl-1 end, so general air starvation results in richest mix at cyl-1. I am planning to remove intake hose and just hit the IAC with WD-40. If instant improvement, the problem is there.
By the sounds of previous discussion here, I think I am looking in the wrong area now. But I have no clue as to where the IAC sensor is at, much less the rest of the sensors. Autozone has check it and came up with a P0303 code-cylinder 3 misfire detected. Any help would be a huge help, as it sounds very similar to what you have dealt with already. Thanks.
As the misfire is not random across the cylinders, you can almost bet your last dollar it is vacuum leak at cylinder 3 intake gasket. OBD2 is quite accurate, especially for 4-cylinders. If anything like my '02 SL1, the job is a less than 3 hour do-it-yourself job. All I had was Haynes manual for guide. Good luck.
So, I'm concluding that I will have to replace the intake manifold gasket. I'm going to spray carb cleaner around the gasket to determine if this is really the problem before I go at it. I plan to pick up a Haynes manual to attempt to do this on my own. This is the first larger project I've undertaken on this car, but I really would rather spend the $300 a shop wants for labor on tools and learning how to do it myself. Is replacing this gasket something that someone with good diy skills can tackle with a repair manual, a will and a weekend, or should it be left to a mechanic? Any tips?
It is not a major job at all. Don't take apart all the things mentioned in the Haynes manual, which is for outright manifold removal from car. Only remove what you have to and slide the very lightweight assembled intake manifold straight back and off the studs. No scraper needed as with other cars. This gasket will come right off. I'm in NYC on travel. Can send you my checklist and whatever else and pics when I get back home in Boston, including my gasket's leak point, etc. If I do it again, can do in 2 hours. Don't take to Saturn dealer, which will put in another same gasket with possible reoccurance. The plastic gasket just doesn't adhere to the clamped surfaces and gasket probably expands/contracts too much with each engine heat up. The gasket just flows and distorts, creasing and whatever, letting in air. Car will run like new with gasket work!
coolant temp sensor, 4 injectors, idle air controller, air filter, spark plugs, plug wires, ignition coils, ignition module, and many more that I can't remember. Also have had to do 4 oil changes because of fouling in the engine oil. I've only had the car for a month now, and I have to get an emmisions test done to get the car plated and on the road, but without this fix, it's not road legal.
Cheers...it's Miller time!
Matt
'01 SL1, 230K and counting
I have PO301 and PO507 in doubles and single pairs with variable code sequence and I've collected all the necessary tools, but a step in the Chiltons that specifies relieving the fuel rail pressure also recommends replacing the o-rings on the injectors each
time they're removed, other than obvious cracking from ozone damage, is this step along with draining all the Antifreeze a necessary step for replacing the Manifold gasket?
Thanks.
The fuel rail is easy to disconnect at the end. A special squeeze clip is all that locks it in place and a gentle tug will pull it off (don't let it squirt you in the eye, and be ready to catch about two ounces of fuel from the rail since the pressure is relieved).
the antifreeze caught me by surprise...I didn't pay enough attention to other posts in this thread. The manifold gasket does seal off cooling passages within the cylinder head, and once the seal is broken (as your removing the manifold) the contents of the head will leak out. So, draining at least a portion of the coolant...say a gallon or so...might prevent it from spilling down the back of the engine and onto the floor or ground.
I wasn't able to acquire a torque wrench for the job...and also was confused with the torque specs in my Haynes manual (only listed up to 1999)...so I did a no-no and winged it. I tightened in 4 stages, evenly, starting from the center of the manifold and working outward. This is very tedious, and is probably much worse with an actual torque wrench. Perhaps someone else can comment on that.
sorry....long-winded...but hope this might help.
Matt
The manual says something about a schrader valve depressing to relieve the fuel pressure, (this step is in another chapter from the 20 sentence steps listed for the manifold replacement.
Did you remove your hood to do your gasket? I'm thinking about doing it and the valve cover just to get a better view of what I'm doing, the other thing is I might want to replace my serpentine belt as I have an oil wicking problem where the leaking oil only leaks when the car is running and whips all over the underside of the hood and some of the hoses in the vicinity.
Since I have to relieve the tension on the serpentine to remove the power steering pump, I thought it would be a good time to replace it before the oil eats up the belt or causes it to fail,(I don't know for sure I'm guessing) my past problems were limited to just cracks in the rubber due to age and ozone exposure, this is my 3rd Saturn, my 1st one
(91)I traded in just as the catalytic converter was starting to be really noisy like a bunch of marbles trapped inside it.
My second one was a used 92 SL2 and I found out quickly about the TSB that related to the non-joke of carrying around a case of oil in the trunk because of it's notorious
oil burning problems, once I came back after my wife had been driving the car and she said it sounded like clicking
in the engine,(1500 miles without an oil level check) to me it sounded like dieseling, lo and behold, the dip-stick was bone dry, almost no oil! Anyway I got rid of it as soon as possible, ironically 6 months later I spied it traveling in the same direction one morning, (some woman was driving it) in a city of over a million people what a surprise, I just feel sorry for her even though I replaced about $1000 worth of stuff during the 2 years I owned it, the most expensive being that damn $700 windshield after I kilt a mosquito and cracked that old windshield.
Anyway, thanks for the advice on the 2 oz of fuel drippage, I have lots of pads to absorb that and maybe it won't burn or corrode through the plastic layer of these diaper pads.
"you're being punished for not enough of you voting (R) in SoCal" it's always political of course if I wanted to waste more gas, I could do what some are doing and drive down to Mexico where state price supports make it about $2 a gallon cheaper! ($2.45)!!!
Most of the time I wasted 2 out of 4 hours was trying until the next day when I found out (duh) that the drain for the radiator is merely a 1/4" socket, (double duh for me!) the
power steering pump was the lone problem as removing 3 bolts did little until I noticed that there's a hard to reach bolt at the bottom of the P.S. bracket, I managed to
push the P.S. pump back far enough to give me the necessary clearance to push the intake assembly off the engine studs.
I used nitrile gloves to protect my hands and a shop rag to absorb the gas from the rail, (there was no pressure in my line, but a bit of liquid gas)
I didn't have 2 oz drain out, most likely due to having the Saturn at an incline with the front wheels on a level surface (for the jack stands stability) I used the left over gas on a shop rag to clean off the 2 mating surfaces and once I had full clearance, the gasket went on without any problems, I too hadn't drained enough coolant, so as I removed all the nuts, some coolant started dribbling out, so I opened the drain again to lower the coolant level.
Since the book (Chilton's) calls for 22 ft-lbs. on the intake nuts for the SOHC 2002 SL I felt the relative ease at removing the nuts in the middle and it was a bit harder on the edges, this is probably due to more heat concentration on the middle and less on the edges where the
flexing of the metal is different (I suppose) so I tried not to over tighten and I followed the recommendation for tightening from the center and working outward.
After all of this, I started it up and all my codes disappeared! Now I can pass the smog!
Draining antifreeze from the block is necessary, with draining the radiator also good idea, but not necessary. Just the block is necessary and there will be some leakage when separating the intake manifold from the head. The P0301 is 1st cyl misfire, so you have a bad leak at the passenger end of the manifold. P0507 is fast idle and loss of idle speed by black box. The leaked air got detected triggering more fuel flow and faster idle. When idle switch is enabled and engine rpm much above 750 rpm or so, P0507 will trigger.
Matt
The car ran two days without a code showing up and I thought all was well. Well, I took it on a road trip (>400miles) and a code showed up along the way. Autozone read the code as 0410--secondary intake system malfunction.
The other thing I'm having problems with now, is that it seems to have a significant loss of power--particularly when climing even the slightest of hills. At highway speed, I might lose 10 mph as the cruise tries to keep up. I also noticed significantly poorer gas mileage that what I've been getting for a long time. I was reading about 31-32 mpg, and usually it's 36-38. So, I'm assuming that I still have a significant issue--maybe O2 sensor, maybe just plugs/wires, or maybe bad compression from the leaking intake gasket that I negleted for a LONG time.
Anyway....I'll give it the plugs and wires when I return home and see how it goes.
I'm at over 108K miles on my 02 SL and today while at a drive-thru, I was fortunate to notice that my engine temp which normally rides a hair above 1/4 gauge was not only heading towards 3/4, but my A/C wasn't working, so I figured
that the cooling fan probably bit the dust, so I had to alternate between running the car when I could move and turning it off when I was sitting idle behind stalled traffic.
The book says check thermostat, but I knew if that was the problem, I would not have been able to cool down the coolant temp by forcing air through the radiator by driving.
As I drove faster, the temp did go down and it went down to it's normal (fan working) temperature, I managed to get home
tested the dead fan after checking the relays and lone 30amp
fuse and it all led back to the dead fan motor reading around 114Kohms, like an open or blown fuse, fan diode is fine with 2.2Kohms in one direction and infinity reversed.
Taking the fan out was rather fast, the price for a replacement is as follows, Napa wanted $130 for an entire replacement assembly, Saturn was charging $104 for the fan motor and then I remembered a nice parts place that sold good parts for a reasonable price, (Parts +) and they had a couple in stock for under $35 including tax, what a bargain!
Installing it was easier than removing it and the A/C was restored and putting out really cool air again, oh and the engine was restored to non-overheated status, a minor side benefit.
I've never been able to resolve the problem. The car runs great until it reaches operating temperature, then it's sluggish and stumbling on acceleration, and loses power on hills on the highway. I'm wondering if the coolant temp sensor could be bad and causing a problem with the fuel management.(I assume from my mileage and the appearance of my spark plugs that it's running rich).
Do you know what symptoms would show up with a bad temp sensor???
I think you have some clues now to give it a whirl. As a quick painless test, don't overlook the simple PCV valve. It is reverse spring loaded to prevent flow during idle as PCV will mess up your idle, but it is to open at low vacuum conditions. If you have missing dipstick or other potential leaks, that could affect your open-throttle air mix. A simple test is to plug up the PCV connection and preclude any PCV action just to discard this possible problem.