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Where is Honda taking Acura?

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Comments

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "I wonder if the 04-08 TLs will end up being valuable classic used Acuras, more so than the new generation?"

    While I think the '04-'08 TL is the best generation of that model that Acura made, I don't think the term "classic" applies to any TL. Unfortunately, they'll eventually just become old used cars. I think they'll be relatively desirable old used cars, with a decent, but declining resale value.

    Yeah, Mazdas seem to have many of the attributes that pre-'09 TL owners value.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    It may not be unreasonable to expect the resale value to mimick that of the Legend. Decreasing yes, but still desirable enough to stem steep declines. I could see a lower mileage used model in 10 years valuing higher than it's competitors.

    Acura got that car so right, especially the TL-S.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Yeah, it's my guess that in 2019 you'll pay more for a '08 TL than a '09, in comparable condition.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    From the October issue of Motor Trend:

    "Acura's proposed rear-drive sedan and all-wheel-drive, V8 powered NSX replacement have gone from 'dead' to 'good and dead.' Late last year, Honda's CEO Takeo Fukui announced he had shelved plans for an all-wheel-drive next-generation NSX, a rear-drive platform for the RL, and a corporate V8 engine. His replacement as CEO, Takanobu Ito, has reiterated Honda's plans to concentrate on hybrid vehicles. 'I don't think we need a classic front-engine, rear-drive car,' Ito told a press conference. 'It would be meaningless to emulate what other companies have been doing for more than five decades.' "

    While Honda has a history of doing things its own way, rather than following the crowd, their cars lack the excitement that they once had, in my opinion. Their future hybrids may be technological wonders, but to me, the term "hybrid" doesn't equate to "gotta have it!"
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yeah, and their latest hybrid the Insight hasn't exactly set the sales charts on fire - it's 5% more exciting than the most boring car on the planet (the Prius), and 5% less expensive. What did they expect?

    Now Lexus has beaten them to market with the first entry-lux hybrid, the HS250 or whatever it is. Honda is really lagging, and it shows at Acura and at Honda both.

    Will Honda bring out ANYTHING innovative?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Will Honda bring out ANYTHING innovative?"

    I expect that they will, but I don't have much hope that future Acura models will appeal to people like us.

    For '09, the Hondas that appeal the most to me are the Civic and the Fit. I think I mentioned that no Acura models appeal to me. Am I remembering correctly that you agreed?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I agree :D

    Actually, I am curious about the 2010 - 2011 TL-S with AWD and a 6 speed manual. It may be too big and heavy to be fun though :sick:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Yup, I agree. And the '11 TL-S will weigh about 3800 pounds, right? No way a car that heavy is going to be "fun". Gone are the days when any Acura was "fun".

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    Subaru makes a good car, but lot of people drives AWD with all-weather tires and don't understand why my RWD car with summer and winter tire sets drives much more better :)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "Will Honda bring out ANYTHING innovative?"

    I expect that they will, but I don't have much hope that future Acura models will appeal to people like us.

    For '09, the Hondas that appeal the most to me are the Civic and the Fit.


    Agree with all of the above. I liked Honda for reliability, sportiness, cars that were not too large. The accord is huge. The TL is now huge and ugly. The formerly great TSX is bigger and softer. I agree, the Civic still looks like an upscale car.

    But if you like agile, quality,and small, you either pay big $$ for BMW or you look at Mazda. The 3 (although uglier than last gen) is a quality small car that is sportier than the Civic and handles great. We own a Mazda 5 and for a micro-minivan .... well let's just say that the Mazda 5's steering and handling are far superior to my 2005 Acura Tl's. The TL has more power, but from an agility and handling perspective, the Mazda is much more fun to drive.

    VW might have been a consideration, but their reliability and cost-to-repair issues kill them. Plus their latest gen cars are more Japanese in style and IMHO are a lot less attractive than before.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I agree but for comparison sake, the Audi A6 Quattro comes in at 4255lbs and the 535xi comes in at 4145lbs.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...if you like agile, quality,and small, you either pay big $$ for BMW or you look at Mazda. The 3... is a quality small car that is sportier than the Civic and handles great.

    I agree with you on the 3-Series vs. Civic. The things I don't like about the 3-Series are the run-flat tires and the fact that it doesn't have an oil dipstick.

    I'm not familiar enough with Mazdas to comment, but your positive comments are consistent with what I've read.

    VWs drive very well, and their reliability has improved significantly. I'd cross shop one with a Mazda now.
  • greenacuragreenacura Member Posts: 42
    my past leases were all Acura TL's ( 2007, 2004, 2000 & 1998). These cars were great and I really enjoyed them. My last 2007 TL was my favorite but when the lease ended I could bring myself to drive the 2009 TL. Ugly! I looked at the 2009 TSX but a lot of $$$ for a 4 cyl with a tiny back seat. I also checked out the 2009 Accord EX-L but it was missing some important options such as memory seat, xenon headlights and the car is not very attractive. I ended up leasing a 2009 Maxima because it had everything from my 2007 TL and I was able to lease it cheaply. The other car that impressed my was the Mazda 6 but it didn't have a good lease program. So long Acura......
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    VWs drive very well, and their reliability has improved significantly. I'd cross shop one with a Mazda now.

    Hopefully somebody from Honda/Acura is reading these posts and knows that former Honda lovers are concerned. Unless Honda is happy to move toward Toyota blandness - perhaps that's where the big bucks are.

    I'd like to see a next model Accord go DOWN in size, along with the TL. And get some more attractive styling.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I'd like to see a next model Accord go DOWN in size, along with the TL.

    Hallelujah, say it again! The last gen of both these models were as large as either should ever be.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Instead of discussing where Honda is taking Acura, I'd be interested in learning what direction other Edmunds posters think Acura should be taking.

    As I've mentioned several times in various discussions, I think Nissan/Infiniti has the answer in terms of platforms; that is, FWD architecture for Nissans and RWD for Infinitis. I'd like Honda/Acura to follow the same business model.

    V8 engines aren't that important to me, since Honda has the know-how to make outstanding 4s and 6s.

    I'd like to see Acura reintroduce the RSX, to compete with the 1-Series BMW.

    Your thoughts?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    now that I stumbled upon this thread.

    Right now, I have a 2005 Accord (4 cyl. stick), and 2000 TL. Also a 2005 Odyssey to round out the fleet.

    And most likely, none of them would be replaced by another Honda. Between the bloating, various quality issues (trannys) reported, and styling on the Accura (Accord too, but not as much), they really don't interest me any more.

    They also seem to be moving away from the days of lighter, agile, good visibility modest size cars.

    I actually really liked the 2004-2008 TLs Very nice looking, and the TSX was very nice too for a 4. I almost bought one in 2005, but got too good a deal on my EX-L Accord.

    My sister does have a new TSX, and it is a nice car (I drove one briefly), but certainly more "mature" than the 1st generation. And the TL is just an abomination (all visual, I never drove one).

    Plus, they have become a gadget and button fest, something that Hondas never used to be (tradtionally simple, clean, perfect ergonomics).

    I will say that I spent some time driving a new MDX, and while it is not very pretty (nose at least), it did drive nice. But it is quite the boat, and very heavy.

    So for me, Acura offers nothing of interest at this point. I too would be more likely to end up with a Mazda, BMW or even a Volvo or Subaru than another Honda/Acura.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Instead of discussing where Honda is taking Acura, I'd be interested in learning what direction other Edmunds posters think Acura should be taking.

    Acura should be sportier than it is currently. The TL is too big and heavy. I'm actually GLAD that they didn't do a V8 - sixes are more powerful than eights used to be, and Honda makes the best engines around.

    TL - next gen a bit smaller than previous gen. Electronic features are fine, but Mazda-fy the steering (too bad Honda USED to be known for this). Appearance could be a derivative of the 04-08 car with upgraded styling, perhaps only a little bit of the 09 styling thrown in.

    TSX - more like prevous gen. Tighter steering. Optional six cyl to compete with the A4. Upgrade the interior to true luxury class, but keep the handling taut.

    New sedan - competitor to BMW 1-series at lower cost. Smaller than TSX.

    RL - Needs to be better differentiated in size from TL. If TL gets smaller, keep RL at current size and there you go.

    MDX - Not many changes needed

    RDX - Lose the turbo unless you can get some refinement and fuel economy out of the 4. Otherwise just put a six in it.

    NSX - Bring it back, upgraded, if funds allow.

    Larger sedan - if funds allow, put out a turbo six, larger than current RL. True luxury sedan, high end. No V8.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    They absolutely have to have a new NSX. How could they abandon that?

    And it would be nice to see a "mini-NSX": a proper sport coupe that is lighter, smaller-engined, lower-priced.

    Oh, and they really don't need more than two midsize sedans: they can keep their gizmo-lux model (currently the RL) as long as they also have a proper sport sedan, which could be the TL if they sliced half a ton out of its curb weight and gave some road feel to the steering again.

    The TSX is just a waste of resources unless they choose to keep it instead, give it the optional six, and cancel the TL. But it's an awkward size because of its European heritage: it's too small for Americans that like a wider car with a larger back seat, and it's not small ENOUGH for folks who want a sporty small car (like me).

    But it is pointless to talk about any of this, because the most fundamental change they MUST MAKE to compete with the big boys is one they won't make: developing a couple of versatile RWD platforms for all Acura models. 300 hp in a FWD sedan? Ridiculous. They are destined to be the Japanese Saab as things stand, and we know where Saab stands relative to BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus. It's the slightly sportier Volvo. Whoop de doo.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Acura once made elegant looking cars/vehicles. With ZDX, looks as though they are regressing to Pontiac Aztek mentality. I will keep my 2004 TL. If they don't fix up their styling, and reduce their gadgetry/weight in TL, it will be adios Acura on next vehicle.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I was out for a walk the other day and walked by a new TL - ghastly. There isn't a panel without a weird crease.

    The preceding model was a fairly elegant vehicle. I suspect some of those will retain longterm owners like you. A used Type-S might not be a bad pre-owned thing to buy either.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    stopped at the dealer today to check out a TSX (not for me, I am helping someone buy one). Not too bad, except for the beak.

    The TL though was very overdone, and even quite tacky. The interior was also way too busy and overstyled. Made my 2000 sitting outside look svelte and understated.

    the new RL they had was OK, but again the nose has to go.

    what is it with car makers trying to stick the same corporate nose on every car? Never seems to work on different sizes, although maybe if they designed a good looking one (something that Acura and Audi both failed at!) it would work better.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Acura should have just continued with the front styling theme of the '99-'08 TLs.

    The new TSX styling doesn't look bad. However, rear seat leg room is rather tight. Also, the foot space for entering the back seat, between the edge of the rear seat cushion and the bottom of the B post is especially tight. Considering that this is a mid-size 4-door car, that design deficiency alone is a significant demerit. Check it out if you're seriously considering a new TSX.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "There's a certain level of confusion within the Acura line-up, we're in the midst of a big change. Post-Lehman we dropped the larger-than-V6 engine, and have to adjust to new consumer demands."

    New Honda President Lays Out a Few Goals(Straightline)
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'm beginning to wonder whether Acura will be relevant in a few years. Acura's current products are unappealing, in my opinion, and future products don't look promising.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The only encouraging thing in all these recent announcements concerning Acura is that they are looking at going head to head with the 1-series coupe.

    I suppose it will be AWD on a FWD platform, which will eliminate it from true BMW competition, but at least we might finally have a fun Acura coupe under $30K again.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I finally saw a ZDX in person today, on the road. Honda should really be paying annual fines for causing the public to throw up, with that thing for sale. Move over Aztek, there's a new ugliest car EVER in town!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • plan_manplan_man Member Posts: 97
    Aaaaaa-men! :lemon:
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Agreed! Finally two at my local Acura dealer last weekend and I just wanted to barf!! What the hell were they thinking. Like the TSX Wagon the ZDX is just going to be another one massive FAIL for Acura! :mad:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I haven't seen a TSX wagon in person yet, but I don't think anything EVER could be as bad as the ZDX.

    I noted with amusement that one can lease a new TL for only $9/mo more than the TSX when I saw the TV ad last night. Just a hint of desperation there. I think if Audi holds the line just a bit on its pricing it is going to eat up Acura's sales with a spoon. Not to mention the new S60 looks pretty good, and who knows, people might even start buying new Lincolns - I saw the first new Lincoln in my area in ages the other day.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited May 2010
    I saw the TSX Wagon in person last month at the NY Auto Show and it was in blue barf barf barf :sick: :sick: :sick: !

    Instead of bringing out butt ugly things like the ZDX and TSX Wagon, they should be focusing on completely gutting and redesigning the RL, which is an absolute shame that Acura neglected it and put it down the toilet like they did and bring out some sport coupes, like the NSX and CL again!!!
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Knock, knock. Is anyone home?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Acura still sells the RL, but it just doesn't sell.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I don't think I have seen a single facelifted RL on the road.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I too have not seen any 2009+ RLs on the road as of yet either! It just sells so badly for Acura. It needs to be scrapped and completely redone and I don't have the slightest clue why Acura is procrastinating on it :confuse: :sick:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    earlier this week that stated Honda will be dropping the Legend from its home market lineup. Guess that means it's adios to the TOTALLY pointless RL as well, eh? Talk about a great line of cars coming to an ignominious end. Anyone besides me remember the first Legend?

    In 10 short years HMC fell completely off its game with both the Honda and Acura lineups in America. It's no wonder nobody cares. The Cross Tour and the ZDX?? What were they thinking?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    no, I made the mistake as well but autoblog and Acura issued a correction later that day! The Legend in Japan is being discontinued but the RL here in the States is remaining as Acura's flagship!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    why bother?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I agree. It would be a different thing if Acura had come out and said or at least hinted of their plans for the RL, such as completely redoing it, where it was going to compete, etc but we have gotten diddly quat from Acura other then they are going to be keeping it here.

    They know it sells very poorly, so why not at least give some of us Acura buyers some hope that they are going to turn that car around in the near future?? Just boggles the mind.
  • tizertizer Member Posts: 23
    What has happened to Acura? They have totally lost their Marketing brand identity and direction. Big Beaks on all their cars that look terrible. I currently own an 06 RL that has been a superb car. With 60,000 trouble free miles. Have not even replaced the front brakes yet. Sure the technolgy is now out of date, a better nav, bluetooth, hard drive music storage and push button start would be on my wish list. The ZDX is hideous, have only ever seen one on the road, and I think it was someone on a test drive. Acura needs a coupe (awd) in their lineup and the RL has so much potential. I'd buy another with the up dates I mentioned sin "the beak", Maybe a hybrid version could be offered. Right now my next car choice would be an Infiniti M37X or the new GS when it comes out next year.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I currently own an 06 RL that has been a superb car....Sure the technolgy is now out of date, a better nav, bluetooth, hard drive music storage and push button start would be on my wish list.

    This is exactly why throwing "high tech" consumer electronics on the inside of the car is a really bad tack for Acura to take - it will ALWAYS be outdated in a couple of years. Then you have a whole dashboard full of 8-track tape players in a $40K car. The high tech needs to be under the hood and in the chassis, something SORELY lacking in Acura cars in the last 5-7 years. And there's no indication there will be any change in direction any time soon. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I read that Honda management is in the process of figuring out where they want to take Acura. In terms of positioning in the marketplace, they don't want to compete in the top tier luxury market, but, rather, a step below that. How to do it is what's being decided.

    For me, as the owner of an older TL, Acura has lost its luster.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    isn't that the same "near luxury" arena that they have always competed in (along with Infiniti)?

    Where they really need to take the product is back into the design studio, because if they don't rediscover good design, they won't have enough sales to survive!

    In the last decade, the 1999-2003 era TL was by far the most popular car, along with the MDX, so to me that pretty much screams of glorified Honda/near luxury.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'm not saying Acura products are bad. They's just no longer special. The competition has caught up, in terms of value for the money, performance, and driving fun. You didn't have to justify why you bought a TL, for example. Now you do, becuase the styling is offbeat, and the feature content dosn't stand out from the competiion. Acura needs to make its vehicles, starting with its cars, special again.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Best package of styling/performance was 04-07. Wife likes new Acura every 3-4 years, but will hang onto her 07 TL for awhile and see if Acura somehow straigtens out its TL line. Current TL is fat and ugly.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I agree with your assessment of the current TL.

    If I can make a minor correction, the previous TL platform was produced for 5 model years, '04-'08, and the one before that, '99-'03. If Acura continues on a 5 year cycle, the next all new TL will be introduced in the fall of '13, as a '14 model. That's quite a wait.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited February 2011
    Acura unveiled a refreshed TL at the Chicago Auto Show, but it's a yawner. This once very popular near-luxury, value packed, aspirational Acura model, the lynchpin for the brand, has been slumping. The latest platform, introduced for the '09 model year, has failed to inspire. Sales have languished.

    Realizing that something needed to be done, Acura cleaned up the front-end some, toning down the beak effect, and shortening the front-end overhang by 1 1 /2". It also made some minor cosmetic changes in back. Mechanically, the TL now has a new 6-speed automatic, which replaces the 5-speed. This enhancement is said to improve gas mileage of the FWD vervion by 3 mpg. These are all positive changes, but it seems that the automotive press barely noticed. Did Acura not go far enough with these changes, does it have a PR problem, or some of each. Would the press have made more of these changes if it had been BMW or Hyundai?

    As a TL owner and one who respects the brand, despite recent disappointments, maybe I was expecting too much, too soon. Maybe the freshened TL will yet become popular with buyers. If I were to guess, it looks like we have to look beyond this generation, to the next all-new platform. That'll probably be introduced for model year '14. That's a long wait!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2011
    What is a TL anyway?

    Seriously, I don't pay a lot of attention to sedans, but I had to go look it up. If they called it a Jetta, at least I'd have an idea of what it was. MDXs I've figured out from reading the SUVs boards.

    A 3 mpg improvement is pretty significant.

    Inside Line covered it and the story over there got ~40 comments, so some people noticed.

    Not many of the comments are complimentary though.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I think some of the change made to the MMC will help improve sales a little bit, especially the grill change, but not that much of a difference. I think will have to wait for the 5G to come out. Except for the TSX wagon, nothing new is coming out this year. Will have to wait till 2012 to see any major redesigns and/or new models.
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