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Comments
More than anything, the direction AASC points at appears to suggest sales being a primary motivation than showcasing technology. NSX was more of an engineering showcase, inspired by and directly tied to Honda’s re-entry into Formula 1 racing. It was devised as a car to move away from the Honda norm of FF entries. Clearly, it targeted a new class.
The philosophy involved in the development of the NSX:
“What we need is a midrange, midship car that provides superior performance yet requires equally superior driving skills in order to be controlled. We can then maximize the dynamic performance of this car to a degree that’s as close as possible to an F-1 machine.”
I don’t see AASC taking an approach but to be a prelude (pun?) to demonstrate technologies being/to be offered in mainstream Acura vehicles. It isn’t a bad idea, but different. Something I don’t like about it is that Acura could have used a different car for the purpose, be it the RL or something else (CL) which can grab the attention of a typical buyer. While Acura/Honda stayed true to their racing efforts (Acura in ALMS, Honda in F1/IRL) with the next generation NSX as the flagship Acura.
while a porche carerra 4 for example on northeast winding country roads with no traffic in the fall when foliage is at its peak with a lovely person in the passenger seat is ...blissful... but on the roads of NE suburbia or the city, and it's cold or there's lots of traffic (or cops) it makes you cry doesn't it?
i remember being in india at a club and seeing a ferarri parked outside. if you know the roads and the traffic there, you know the absurdity of that sight. :shades:
With AASC, no matter how hard Acura tries calling it a successor to the NSX, they would be starting from scratch. Consistency is necessary to establish a heritage. People associate Honda with F1 due to its years of involvement and success.
Honda's inconsistencies also show up in a lot of other places (including a post I remember Varmint making, either here or on another board), in terms of styling. There is no consistent theme to the grill. Or styling. And as a result, no heritage.
But I have no illusions about the rest of the world seeing things my way. This is not about what I like. Nor is it about what you like. This is about what the market does.
The NSX is a plaque on the wall. Yay, we have a plaque! Did that plaque do any good? Umm... no.
The Viper is a sales and image-boosting machine of unparalleled success. Only the Corvette and Mustang have achieved similar sales and marketing success.
We can talk all day about the superiority of Formula One vs NASCAR, but at the end of the day there are 1,000 NASCAR fans for every single fan of F1. Acura might as well use a floral pattern for the interior cloth in the ASC. The loyalty of The Petunia Club of America is worth more than the fan base for F1 in the US.
(No, I am not suggesting that Acura NASCAR. I'm just making a point.)
Every time Honda/Acura produces a superior car, somebody else produces something inferior and steals the limelight. Purists are finite. Poseurs are in endless supply. Which would you target if you had a business to run?
Let me put it in another light. Which market is more ripe for a take-over? Which is the easier car to take down? Should Acura attack the Carrera GT, the Enzo, and Gallardo? Or is the DB9 the soft spot?
See, that's not true at all. The ASC showcases SH-AWD. A car with a MR platform and a big engine has nothing in common with other Acura products.
Besides, what's wrong with sales? That is the name of the game, after all. A car needs to be seen to be appreciated. If nobody buys them, nobody sees it. And if nobody sees it, nobody appreciates it.
This is true. If Acura produces the ASC, they should not name it NSX or try to compare it with the NSX. Doing that would be inconsistent. The ASC should stand on its own merit as a completely new product.
I suppose Acura had to go SUV-heavy - it's a sign of the times - but Acura really needs some exceptional vehicles, and what they have is some decent vehicles. I eyeballed the new TL-S closely, but I can't say it thrilled me all that much. $38K for a FWD stick shift? That won't be me.
They say BMW is close to committing to bringing over the 1-series for '08. Volvo will have the C30 T5 this year. The A3 has sold better than expected. The only reason the C230 hatch failed was that it was totally unworthy of the MB name. Instead of pushing for the stars with the same ol', same ol', Acura should be putting out some models to compete in the mid-$20s that actually are sporty (NOT two tons, NOT SUVS with the driver's butt four feet off the road, NOT sedans that totally remove the driver from the road, NOT...)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If that's the case for Acura the I could say the same thing about Lexus, Infiniti and Audi. The reasons I left BMW and MB out are due to: M5, M6, SL and CLS. Taken those niche cars away then they are all the same.
I guess that's why Lexus is introducing the LF-A and F-series, Acura the ASC, and Audi the R8. Don't know what Infiniti has working in the mill but humor has it that the GT-R is going to carry the Nissan badge.
Then why does Honda spend millions in F1/IRL racing efforts? Why is Acura stepping into ALMS? They have nothing in common with the product they sell after all! Although, we might see a TSX following an Acura LMP2 on a track in a commercial someday. IMO, it might be better if it were NSX doing that instead.
If it were about showcasing SH-AWD, Acura could have used RL to do so. And if there is something Acura needs something today to boost sales, focus need to be placed on drivetrain, platform, features and styling. Having ASC on top is not going to help.
The Viper is a sales and image-boosting machine of unparalleled success. Only the Corvette and Mustang have achieved similar sales and marketing success.
Only in America, where the market is clearly biased towards muscle more than anything else. Remember, it is also a market, as you suggested, that favors NASCAR over F1.
Besides, I'm not sure Viper image helped Dodge at all. None of the models that have been contemporary to Viper exist today with the exception of Caravan.
Purists are finite. Poseurs are in endless supply. Which would you target if you had a business to run?
Former. It is hard to appeal to the latter unless the badge helps and at this point, Acura is not in that position. For some reason, I have a feeling Lexus will have an easier time selling LF-A even if it carried a higher price than Acura might with ASC even if it obliterated the former in performance.
Which market is more ripe for a take-over? Which is the easier car to take down? Should Acura attack the Carrera GT, the Enzo, and Gallardo? Or is the DB9 the soft spot?
None of the above. NSX helped build a foundation. The next step should have been to grow on top of it. This is how a company builds "heritage", something to rest laurels upon and benefit in the future. Taking steps in different directions will only create chaos and the issue of lost identity (kinda like RL, which also suffers from the same).
If you can't see that the Viper helped the corporate image for Dodge, call your optometrist. She may be able to help.
Acura had its chance to build heritage with the NSX. That was more than a decade ago. They failed to seize the moment. That moment is long gone. Time to create a new moment.
Adding a car like the ASC to the line-up would mean that 5 out of 7 Acuras would share SH-AWD. They've already shown the Sports4 concept with SH-AWD and popular opinion is that it will become the next TSX. It's possible the TL will follow with SH-AWD. Even if those AWD models are only the Type S variants, that makes 7 out of 7 cars with AWD as either standard hardware or a performance upgrade.
If not being consistent with their line-up is chaos, then why add a halo car with a completely different drivetrain? Your RWD mid-engined car is the abberration in the line-up even if Acura doesn't go with SH-AWD for all their cars.
You better clarify "unparalleled success". I don't know what the Viper sales numbers are, but I see more Ferrari's costing 2-4 times as much in the DC area. And, last time I checked, "little" Porsche was more profitable than Dodge, Chevy and Ford combined.
"We can talk all day about the superiority of Formula One vs NASCAR, but at the end of the day there are 1,000 NASCAR fans for every single fan of F1."
And, as with the above response, the size of the market does not necessarily equate to the quality of the market. Sure, if I'm selling Miller Genuine Draft, I want as many beer gut fans as I can possibly reach. But if I'm selling Brietling watches, I'll go for the F1 crowd. I'm sure the NASCAR loyal Big Three buyers still purchase more cars (pick-up trucks included) than the Formula One demographic, but that quantity over quality doesn't mean do-do on Wall Street. I have a business school classmate with a higher net worth than Ford. And guess what, he doesn't drive one.
"Let me put it in another light. Which market is more ripe for a take-over?"
I think I've answered that ad naseum before. The RL should target the 5 series, including the 550i 6-speed. There are a lot of competitors producing very attractive "luxury" laden sedans (Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, Volvo, etc.), but they all seem to fall a little short of BMW when it comes to the "sport" side. That market niche is, IMO, ripe for Acura. As for what to do with an NSX type sports car, I'd target the 911/430 market demographic and leave the Viper/Corvette crowd to their own devices. Obviously, there will be some crossover. But I have childhood friends that fall into the NASCAR crowd that don't yet know how to pronounce Acura. A waste of time and money to go after that group.
P.S. None of my comments are meant to offend fans of Rusty Wallace. I'm just responding to what I think is the right business strategy for Acura if I were on their Board.
I serve on several company boards and am active in my regional business community. A lot of my peers would be prospective candidates for a high end Japanese alternative to BMW or Porsche, but none exist. And, for whatever reason, Acura seems to be the logical candidate. Perhaps I am influenced by my neighbor that owns a Ferrari 430, but also has a Honda S2000 in the family. He speaks fondly of that car as displaying some impressive engineering. Having someone with a 9 figure net worth praise a car is, IMO, more valuable to brand image than buying a NASCAR banner, at least amoung those that can actually afford high end sports cars and sport sedans.
Even my nephew, who just bought a BMW 335i through European Delivery, offered that he wished Acura had a better alternative for him to consider.
While BMW does have designs that age nicely I don;t think the current 5 Series may not look that good 10 years from now. Well as for Acura styling the 1st generation TL(96-98) has aged well in the styling but it was too bland I think for people. The 99-01 TL has aged well too but again but than again everybody lambasted Acura for bland styling so thats what led to the 04 TL styling too. The release of the Infiniti G35 in 2002-2003 also pressured Acura to go with a more sporty look for the TL for the 3rd generation of TL(04+.) I'm in agreement on Mercedes their designs are timeless.
"Finally some people have a problem with the Honda association in japan. Honda is not agressive enough. Thats why Toyota is winning."
What do you mean Honda's not agressive enough so thats why Toyota is winning?
Most of us probably never saw, or had heard about the original Honda S-cars. It would be 35 years since the launch of the original (S500) that S2000 was added. We could see a heritage there. The car itself has nothing in common with the existing Hondas which are all FF drive cars. So S2000 doesn’t share the orientation/platform or the engine. Should Honda have used an FF car instead to have more in common with the rest of the lineup?
Cars like S2000 and NSX didn’t represent cars in the line up, they represented the brand and its core values. Coincidentally, Viper does the same for Dodge.
Besides, cars like ASC are meant to represent the brand as do spending millions in racing, which should help sell lesser cars.
I mean that the presence of the Viper helped Chrysler sell other vehicles. It was successful as a halo. The 90's was something of a comeback period for Chrysler and the Viper was part of that. Notice how many trucks got V10 engines and how many RT cars followed.
Was it enough to single-handedly save the company from recent and current bugaboos? No. But it played it's role very well. It still does well today.
"I think I've answered that ad naseum before."
Sorry. When I asked about targeting a market, I was talking specifically about whether to go after the track-style exotics or the GT-style exotics. I wasn't asking about $50-60K sedans.
"As for what to do with an NSX type sports car, I'd target the 911/430 market demographic and leave the Viper/Corvette crowd to their own devices."
Yes, this is what I was talking about. Although I've used the Viper over an over as a big reason for the decline of the NSX, I do not mean that Acura should target it specifically.
My point is simply that there is a significant market for hi-po GT cars. Many enthusiasts commenting on the ASC have acted like a FR platform is a waste of time and that only MR cars are worthy. The Viper proves that notion false.
Rather than target the Viper an Vette, I think Acura should target the DB9, LF-A, and others. I think that kind of car allows Acura to better showcase their technology and corporate mission. I also think they have a better chance of success going up against those manufacturers than they do going head to head with Porsche, Ferrari, and Lamborghini.
What it shares is the high-revving driving experience. That is something which has been a hallmark of Honda performance.
Likewise, the NSX did share something with other Acuras. It was the standard-bearer for VTEC. It also shared the high-revving performance ideal, which was echoed in the Integra; Acura's most successful product for the following decade.
Well, VTEC is no longer something which Acura can claim is unique to their brand. Nor have most Acura cars been screamers. The cars have changed. Thus the new halo must change.
Notice how many trucks got V10 engines and how many RT cars followed.
RT to Dodge is what Type-R to Honda/Acura would be. It didn’t matter how the cars were oriented (as a matter of fact, most RT’s seem to be FWD). And Viper’s V10 was lifted off RAM (and aluminized for some weight savings).
VTEC is no longer something which Acura can claim is unique to their brand. Nor have most Acura cars been screamers. The cars have changed. Thus the new halo must change.
VTEC was not the end of everything that NSX represented. It showcased an emphasis on all-out performance, more so from the chassis than from the engine itself. And while most Acuras may not be screamers, the new halo is going to be.
Several generations of Civic Si, the CRX Si, and the Preludes. Obviously, the S2K took it farther than any of the others, but that's sorta the point of a halo car. Honestly, I can't think of a Honda performance car known for low-end grunt, can you?
"VTEC was not the end of everything that NSX represented."
No, VTEC was not the sum total of the NSX. But it was the technology which the NSX showcased.
Look, if a Halo car is going to be successful, it must have something in common with the rest of the line. Something more than a badge. Whatever that is, it needs to be something owners can point at and say, "See that. That's Acura goodness right there between the widget and the gizmo." It cannot be an intangible standard of engineering or ethereal notion about "Japanesiness". The original NSX did this with VTEC. The best choice for Acura right now is SH-AWD.
As far as high performance engines go, Acura has had its fair share of high revving engines, although limited to Integra (GS-R and Type-R) and RSX Type-S. And speaking of Prelude’s high revver, the engine in TSX is simply an evolution of that engine with good mid range (for the displacement), peak power arriving at the same engine speed, and red line in low 7000’s. Interestingly enough, NSX’s C32 (and C30 before it) had similar characteristics except that, with help from short stroke, it redlined at 8000 rpm.
Look, if a Halo car is going to be successful, it must have something in common with the rest of the line. Something more than a badge The original NSX did this with VTEC. The best choice for Acura right now is SH-AWD.
I do not agree. The top car in the lineup should represent the brand and its core values. The focus should not be localized to a single feature offered by the brand. It doesn’t have to be like the rest of the cars, to be successful or not, and we have seen that with S2000. We see that in case of Viper. How about Corvette? Lexus?
In fact, Lexus serves as a great example. The brand has been associated (rightfully) with the philosophy of pampering and isolating everybody inside the cabin. What do you think Lexus LS represents that also translates to the success of ES and RX?
It is also a reason I think RL disappoints many. When you get in virtually any Honda or Acura, you expect a well balanced car, one that handles well and doesn’t compromise ride quality for it. This is true for all cars. I won’t say that about RL. Sure it can out-handle virtually all cushy drivers while being one, but it is still a soft car.
No matter how much people associate Infiniti M as being harsh/stiff compared to say Lexus GS (people don’t expect that) or Acura RL (what do we expect from this car? Is it Honda-ness or Lexus-ness?), Infiniti is being consistent with its approach, starting with the lowest model in the lineup and all the way to the top. Wait, Q45 also suffers a lot, perhaps because it has a confused personality.
A lot of people admire Honda (includes me) for reasons well beyond a feature or two. I cheer for Honda while watching F1 or IRL (don't need that anymore in IRL with a guaranteed Honda engine win which actually sucks :P), but that has nothing to do with whether those cars use technologies directly found in my Honda/Acura vehicles. How much is common between a Ford Taurus on a NASCAR circuit and the one that was being manufactured?
Mainstream cars’ success depends on their own merit. People weren’t buying Neon or Caravan because they had a feature also used in Viper.
NSX didn’t represent VTEC. It represented:
- Hondas success in F1 racing and Honda's heritage in general (racing)
- Honda emphasis on making a super car that, unlike others, was reliable, and comfortable
- An engineering billboard to demonstrate the capabilities of a company, expected from a company that we see as being run by engineers
And as a result, Honda caught attention of the world including mine (I almost got an NSX myself). I did not buy Accord (a Prelude and a Civic after that) because it had VTEC like NSX did. It was mere coincidence that it did and at the same time, it was nothing like the VTEC in NSX.
If focus on a feature helps, RL shouldn’t need a premature redesign to boost sales with launch of ASC. But I don’t think it will work.
Acura is at Le Mans too, and not in GT1 class. LMP2s are powered by mid-mounted V8 engines. I would have loved to see NSX revival with its own V8. Then it won’t be a stretch to call it street legal version of the LMP2, to add to it also representing street legal version of Formula 1 racing that has always been associated with it. Doing so would have helped expand an idea that was born over twenty years ago.
And a V8 would have probably helped the rest of the lineup more than a V10 would, something that even has a potential of being shared with lesser Acura vehicles. Now, if ASC were to pave the way for a V10 powered, SH-AWD driven Acura RL at reasonable prices, I won’t complain. Until then.
There is another thing about ASC presentation I didn't like. To illustrate my point, a few years ago, GM showcased its Hywire concept and Honda had its FCX. Hywire had technology that could be appreciated, but more focus seemed to be on styling etc. FCX, OTOH, was purely about technology and readiness to be commercially viable and it ended up as that. Styling upgrades are finally due in 2008.
As an admirer of an engineering oriented company, I appreciated that approach. Based on the NSX (hi)story, emphasis on styling was limited to the inspiration (which is said to be the F16 jet). But emphasis on performance orientation and goals were well defined.
It is 2007 now, and we see an incomplete concept focused on styling that “might” be able to take a V10 under the hood. Have things changed so drastically at Honda?
Honestly, a good part of "Honda's" reputation for high-strung performance has little to do with Honda products here in the US. Many of them are sold only overseas and one of the most visible examples in our market (Integra Type R) was badged as an Acura.
In the case of the Acura, the enthusiast crowd knows that Honda and Acura are the same under the badge. So, even though the 'teg wore an Acura badge, it still helped Honda's image.
Good for Honda, but not so good for Acura.
That link to Honda created other problems. I don't think it's news to anyone that Acura has been trying to distance themselves from Honda products. Dumping the Integra name and finally removing the car from the lineup were both moves in that direction. The TSX is another revver, but even that one is rumored to be getting a Turbo and SH-AWD.
So, when I see Acura considering a V10 AWD supercar, I see potential. Using AWD and lots of cylinders is not Honda's thing. So, this car is different than a typical performance Honda; achieving product separation. Furthermore, because the ASC showcases SH-AWD, it features DNA unique to Acura. I think those are good things.
Accord 3.0/V6: 211 lb-ft
Camry 3.5/V6: 246 lb-ft
Conclusion: Accord lacks the low end grunt.
Let us extend it to a potential fast car comparison.
ASC 4.5/V10: 350 lb-ft
Corvette 7.0/V8: 470 lb-ft
Conclusion: ASC lacks the low end grunt.
The issue, no matter how trivial, isn’t going away. It is simply being taken to another level based on increased horsepower which is expected to be 500 HP or so.
As far as SH-AWD and Acura DNA is concerned, to a common person, is it really that different from Quattro or X-Drive or anything that Subaru or Nissan offer? Unless that common person is a techie, and unless SH-AWD manages to keep its unique aspects just that, I just don’t see why the entire focus needs to boil down to that single aspect.
Now let us look at options (if I were running Honda, I would):
NSX
Chassis: Mid mounted, RWD
Engine: 4.0 or 4.5-liter V8, 450 HP/300-350 lb-ft
ASC
Chassis: Front mounted, AWD
Engine: 4.5 or 5.0-liter V10, 500-550 HP/350-375 lb-ft
With NSX, I could have set a sub-3400 lb curb weight goal. With ASC, IMO, it will be a miracle (or very expensive) to target sub-3600 lb.
With NSX, a rear weight bias is virtually guaranteed and that can help in a lot of “driver oriented” performance areas. With ASC, I’m almost prepared to hear a slight front weight bias although Acura might try to work around it (and compromise a few things along the way).
So, while ASC has something that lesser Acura vehicles might be able to brag about, NSX could have had something that could have been used in lesser vehicles too and that is the V8. An AWD system can be an option, an engine never is. My priority goes to the engine.
Now, even if both cars were to be priced at $75K, which would you prefer?
Since I know you like to post formulas (I've appreciated a number of them), I'm going to condense this a bit.
10 cylinder > # of liters
Super car + Core values = Nice
Super car + Core values + Common technologies = Better
Your example about Lexus and the LS, RX, and ES proves my point. They all share tangible DNA, which the owners may experience first hand.
Racing = brand image
Halo cars = product image
I do not dispute the fact that the NSX caught many people's attention. But the only car it helped to sell was the Integra, which was the lowest priced, least prestigious car on the lot. Why? Because it shared nothing with the other cars in the line.
I'm sorta done with going in circles on this one.
varmint, can you state that another way so others (like me) can understand your point?
I can't believe you think that's important! This is not about you and me. This is about building a product line for a company that sells cars to make money!
And, by the way, the ASC looks to be mid-engined car. Just like the S2000. They ain't gonna cram a V10 ahead of the front axle.
One of the things achieved by the NSX was the promotion of VTEC performance. The NSX proved that Honda's racing technology worked, even at the level of exotic cars.
The fact that VTEC (and the whole high-revving driving experience) was shared between both Honda and Acura added to the marketing impact of those little VTEC badges. If VTEC had been made exclusive to Acura cars, then the Hondas would not have benefited very much from the NSX. With 2 brands putting VTEC cars on the road, it doubled the marketing impact.
So, it was good for Honda that they got to share the halo effect from the NSX. That's the good news.
The bad news is that Acura (a premium brand) was now linked directly with Honda (non-premium). You could get Acura's best technology at the Honda store. In the years following the NSX, Acura became known for the VTEC Integra. The Integra had the most in common with the NSX in terms of driving experience and technology. The RL and Vigor/TL were different kinds of cars. So the NSX didn't really benefit them. Acura's best-seller became the budget car on the lot which was most often compared with Toyota's and Nissan's instead of premium cars.
Nowadays, many people look down on Acura and claim that Acura cars and just "gussied-up Hondas". That is, in part, a result of that link they established back when they began sharing Halo car technology across the Acura/Honda divide.
Now, I don't mean to suggest that the NSX is completely to blame for all of Acura's woes. Obviously, Acura had plenty of other troubles. But I think that if Acura introduces a new super car, it should include important, salient technology that is not shared with Honda products.
As far as Lexus is concerned, I am not seeing how it proves your point. The commonality between all Lexus vehicles is that they are staid, isolating and comfortable movers. It’s something we have come to expect from Toyota. Mark Levinson in ES350 isn’t a nice system because it is also in LS.
But the only car it helped to sell was the Integra, which was the lowest priced, least prestigious car on the lot. Why? Because it shared nothing with the other cars in the line.
I don’t know how you arrived at that conclusion. Realistically speaking, I expect the cheapest cars in any lineup with broadest appeal to sell better than others. Interestingly enough, let us look at sales numbers from Acura lineup:
1989:
NSX – N/A
Legend – 64.6K
Integra – 77.4K
1990:
NSX – 1,119
Legend – 53.6K
Integra – 83.6K
1991:
NSX – 1,940
Vigor – 11.3K
Legend – 65.7K
Integra – 64.8K
1992:
NSX – 1,154
Vigor – 13.8K
Legend – 49.9K
Integra – 55.2K
I didn’t know Legend actually outsold the Integra in 1991 and the sales were fairly close in 1992. How do you think NSX impacted sales of Legend and Integra? Integra was selling just as well before NSX arrived.
If Acura were to launch ASC now, I just don’t see RL getting an automatic boost in sales. Shared features between a halo car and lesser versions can go only as far as seeing that Odyssey chasing a Honda Formula 1 car on a race track. The vehicles eventually sell on their own merits. It is establishing a brand image that Acura needs to worry about right now.
I'm with you on the V8 vs V10 thing. Acura should be building one of those for their regular products before getting into exotics again.
No. Perception is key, especially important for Acura. How many times do you see someone say that Accord is based on RL platform? It is always the other way around and usually to put the Acura down. It doesn't matter if Honda actually designed the platform to be used on RL/Legend first and detuned for lesser cars. What matters (clearly) is when the respective vehicles were produced.
To avoid that, top-to-bottom approach is needed. V8 or V10 need to be showcased at their best with detuned version showing up later in lesser models.
And, by the way, the ASC looks to be mid-engined car. Just like the S2000. They ain't gonna cram a V10 ahead of the front axle
Front-mid would be more like it, but my concern comes from the fact that unlike S2000, ASC is using an AWD system which will add some weight up front. Front-mid doesn’t guarantee a 50-50 weight distribution (or slightly rear biased 48-52 as in S2000). We see that in Infiniti G35, and even Corvette.
Speaking of AWD, I was actually very excited to read about the system in 2001 Honda Dual Note concept and perhaps the immediate predecessor to SH-AWD (the original predecessor dates back to 1991 Honda FS-X concept). And it was a mid-engined sport sedan! I wouldn't have complained about it weighing 4000 lb. But for a sports car, I would have skipped the AWD system.
That said, I don't THAT sharing as an issue at all. Toyota isn't limiting VVTi to Toyota OR Lexus. FSI can be found in Audi as well as VW. So, no reason to make VTEC or i-VTEC or A-VTEC exclusive to either Acura or Honda.
toyota, scion and lexus
nissan and infinity
and dare i:
volkswagen and porsche
and probably others?
for example, when i see lexus vehicles on the road, they look like toyotas to me, and it seems they both suffer from their use of similar DBW throttle control strategies and parts.
-Cj
After Prelude was gone, the first signs of Honda's plan to revive ATTS came with 2001 Honda Dualnote hybrid concept. In this case, hybrid power was fundamental to the AWD system, and ATTS was mounted upfront to distribute torque (but unlike RL where the outside wheel can get upto 100% of the power, instead of sending all of the power from inside wheel to the outside wheel, some of it was directed to keep the ultra capacitor pack charged.
1993:
NSX – 652
Vigor – 10K
Legend – 38.9K
Integra – 58.7K
1994:
NSX – 533
Vigor – 8.4K
Legend – 35.7K
Integra – 67.4K
1995:
NSX – 844 (year of the targa)
Vigor – 16.5K (including TL)
Legend – 18.1K
Integra – 61.3K
The Integra had sales that were pretty stable. The Legend and Vigor did not.
The Integra had a VTEC system "essentially identical to that used in the NSX". The Legend and Vigor did not.
You yourself have noted that Integra sales did their share to carry Acura through the 1990's while other models faltered. That was, in part, because buyers could get a little of that NSX magic in an inexpensive performance vehicle. The Legend/RL and Vigor/TL of the times were neither VTEC-powered nor performance-oriented.
"To avoid [perception issues], top-to-bottom approach is needed. V8 or V10 need to be showcased at their best with detuned version showing up later in lesser models."
Yes, you are correct. I was hasty and probably posted an incomplete thought. What I meant is that Acura should be building a V8-powered halo car and sharing that engine with the RL and MDX. This way, they get the halo car AND the engine for their mainstream products.
"...my concern comes from the fact that unlike S2000, ASC is using an AWD system which will add some weight up front."
It also adds weight to the back. That's where the fancy differential is located.
Lexus uses luxury to put itself on another level above Toyota. They don't use performance (until recently), so the similarities there are less of an issue.
Porsche creates a whole different breed of car. They use different styling, different drivetrains, and different body types. The performance of a Porsche is typically on a completely different level than VWs and Audis.
Acura products are not necessarily sportier than Hondas. The S2000 is sportier than anything in the Acura lineup. The Prelude was sportier than the Integra. Enthusiasts often complained that the RSX prevented Honda from building a proper Civic Si. In fact, the current Civic Si is probably just as sporty as a TSX.
Furthermore, Acuras are not remarkably more luxurious than Hondas. (Though, this seems to be changing.) Anyway, going from a Honda to an Acura is not as dramatic as going from a Toyota to a Lexus. Or, more specifically, the perception separating Honda and Acura is not as dramatic.
Acura could have used VTEC to separate themselves from Honda, but they didn't. (I'm not saying they should have, but they could've.) With SH-AWD, they do have something which may be used as that single, performance-oriented feature which makes Acura unique from Honda. If they build a super car, I think it should highlight that unique feature.
Legend’s decline is sales volume can also be attributed to reduced trim levels and increased price. Until 1993, Legend’s lowest trim was available for $29K or less. In 1994, the base price jumped up to $34K and topped out at $42K. Higher price = lower sales, unless the car is substantially different. In this case, that was not the case, and it happened without a redesign. How does NSX figure in all this?
Honda’s refusal to use VTEC in Legend (and Vigor) is another of several bad moves by the company. In 1991, FSX concept was shown and complete with an SH-AWD like system. That car was powered by a 3.5-liter V6 DOHC VTEC rated at 280 HP. What happened to that engine? We won’t see a drive train like that in an Acura for another 13 years (until 2005 RL arrived).
This also helps reinforce my point. If Acura doesn’t adopt showcased groundbreaking technologies in lesser cars, the company would not be helping itself. At least in case of NSX, VTEC trickled down to the cheapest Hondas, while the rest of the car demonstrated Honda’s commitment in its racing effort which is closely tied to its marketing efforts as well.
What does ASC bring? SH-AWD is old news. V10 is unlikely to go mainstream (I will shut up if Acura RL is offered with a V10, but I am not holding my breath for it). May be it will demonstrate a brand new engine technology but it will remain pointless if that technology isn’t used in lesser cars (just like VTEC not being used in upper Acura models).
NSX may not have been the fastest car, but it remains a benchmark. It was a product that was clearly out of the box thinking for a company that was pumping out docile mainstreamers. There is a reason it gets mentioned in test drives of newer super cars. It gets mentioned when people talk automotive technologies. It may not sell in huge volume, McLaren F1 didn’t either, but benchmark cars make a lasting impression.
Too bad Acura fails to realize that. It is all about $$$ I guess. Unless they can sell a few thousand units of a car, it is deemed a failure. It makes sense from a bean counter perspective living in the present. But, I can’t help but ask as the question: “Where’s the passion?”
It also adds weight to the back. That's where the fancy differential is located.
But with rear biased SH-AWD, is it moving to the front? (we saw a rear biased SH-AWD-like system in Dual Note where the ATTS/planetary gearset was mounted on the front axle as opposed to RL’s where it is on the rear axle).
In Honda's case however, every single model has at some time been called a gussied up Honda, except the NSX. And at various times in the last 15 years, such remarks have been very much on point IMO.
Even the Integra, one of my favorite cars of all time, was barely a half notch beyond a gussied up, top-trim Civic at times (remember the old RS? Mmm-hmm...). It was usually fairly well disguised, especially with the advent of the RSX, but the remark hit home I think.
Seems to me that if Acura really wants to eke out a new spot on the luxury spectrum for itself, the future RL (next gen, in fact) needs to be a proper sport luxury sedan, using the next-gen NSX powertrain and a stretched version of its platform. Nothing less will suffice. The RL and TL are clashing too much already. And it has been said many times, but the next TL has to be SH-AWD (hopefully with rear-biased settings). Even then it might get the "Gussied-up Accord" moniker thrown at it, but there will be a performance difference between the two substantial enough to qualify it for "Acura status".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
thanks i did not know that. from the outside, many of the toyota and lexus sedans look the same, right down to the funky bend in the exhaust pipe right before the muffler.
that bend has always captured my imagination. does it serve a functional purpose?
anyway, i think i see where you guys are comming from.
i think there are a group of people that know Honda and Acura have a similar pedigree and opt to "buy up" when they come into more disposable income.
i don't think there's anything wrong by having them have similar driving dynamics and features and parts. nope, i think it's a good thing for a portion of their loyal customer base.
essentially, you guys want to widen the differences between the top end of the honda and the lower end of the accura lines right?
i don't think you do that by throwing LUX at the vehicles. hondas and accuras are known for being functional, purposeful and non-extraneous right?
I don’t agree with the idea of using SH-AWD as the sole differentiator between Acura and Honda. There has to be more. I would rather see Acura being compared to Honda than with Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan etc. It would not only be a matter of pride, but also of perception in the market.
Acura is in a position today to grab the prestige thing it has been chasing forever. Stubbornness needs to be put to rest. Acura has the volume today to easily warrant a platform dedicated to TL and RL. And potentially re-launch CL. Then ASC would start to make more sense too. Remember, Porsche isn’t where it is today by only selling 911, like Acura did with NSX.
Emphasis has to be on styling that has a presence in a good way. Looking at TL on the road, I know Acura is capable of doing it. Having a mainstream coupe/sedan lineup like the following would do a lot of good:
TSX: Compact touring sport sedan ($28-30K, FF, 210 HP/I-4)
TL: Mid size touring luxury sedan ($35-40K, FR, 300 HP/V6)
CL: Coupe and Convertible ($35-45K, FR, 300 HP/V6)
RL: Full size luxury sedan ($45-55K, FR, 300 HP/V6 or 350 HP/V8)
Each of these cars could be offered with a sport package (no need to bump up the power, just chassis tuning). Then comes the Type-S with SH-AWD:
TSX-S: $35K, SH-AWD, 260 HP/Turbo I-4
TL-S: $40-45K, SH-AWD, 350 HP/V6
RL-S: $60K, SH-AWD, 400 HP/V8
And then something like ASC with SH-AWD to top things off. I don’t think this is an impossible task for Acura, especially financially. Reward will be there’s to reap after initial investment which they need anyway to go any further.
Nah Honda will never use a V-10 in the RL because gas Mileadge would be horrible for an RL if it came with a V10.
LOL. No, it reinforces MY point.
If Acura produces a rear-mid-engined car with ordinary RWD, it will need to find something other than the drive train to share with the rest of the line. It might provide groundbreaking performance, but there's little to suggest that Acura's FWD or SH-AWD products are similar. The company would not be helping itself.
However, if Acura produces a super car with SH-AWD, then it DOES have a technology in common with the lesser cars in the line-up. The connection between super car and mass production vehicles is obvious.
"But with rear biased SH-AWD, is it moving to the front?"
Why on earth...? Think SH-RWD with a small prop shaft sending power to an open diff at the front.
i don't think you do that by throwing LUX at the vehicles. hondas and acuras are known for being functional, purposeful and non-extraneous right?"
Correct. I suspect the ideal is to make Honda cars and trucks the functional, purposeful vehicles. Meanwhile, the Acuras will be the sporty, technologically advanced vehicles.
Taking the Acura cars up-market will benefit both brands of car.
Yeah, that's true. But Lexus has had a better reputation than Acura even longer than they've been doing (notable) RWD platforms. I mean, the best sellers for Lexus have consistently been the ES cars and the RX crossover. These are simply variations on the Camry and Highlander.
I think you're right, but I also think Lexus/Toyota have done a better job of separating the line-ups in other ways. The difference in luxury between a Camry and the ES is more significant than the difference in performance between an Accord and a TL.
Some of that is starting to change. The next Pilot will probably not have SH-AWD and the electro-magnetic suspension of the MDX. The RDX is remarkably different than the CR-V with which it might be compared. If the rumors are true concerning the Sports4 concept being the basis for the next TSX, then that car will be very different than the Accords.
FWIW, I think the next TL ought to have an option for SH-AWD right at launch. Making it standard, might be moving a little too fast for the loyal customers. Never mind waiting for the MMC and a Type S car, though.
Not exactly. In fact, "Beat" from the other example drives home an interesting point. Honda took FF set up, moved it to the rear, and came up with a cheap roadster, the Honda Beat. In fact, the early prototypes for the NSX project involved a similar move. I think it is also a reason NSX made sense at the time. While it (directly) didn't share the engine, it could have. The front engine was relocated to the rear.
Now, as far as "sharing goes". There are three things we can talk about:
1. SH-AWD
2. Engine
3. Platform
Mid-engine/RWD option doesn't offer the third choice, but it does offer engine and SH-AWD sharing (SH-AWD, unlike an engine, can be an option).
For that reason, Acura could have come up with a 450 HP, V8 powered NSX, and offered that V8 in other Acuras. If SH-AWD is to be a big deal, NSX could have offered that too (being mid-engine car does not stop implementation of SH-AWD).
With ASC, SH-AWD will be common with the rest of the Acura lineup. What else? I don't see V10 going into TL or RL. And I hope it doesn't share platform with what should be a full size luxury sedan in which case ASC will end up weighing 3800 lb like BMW 6-series does. May be 4000 lb, considering its got SH-AWD too.
Acura could have developed a 4.5-liter V8, with 350 HP for RL and MDX (and a detuned version for Ridgeline). And a 450 HP version in the next NSX. Eventually a Type-R (or whatever Acura may want to call it) with 500 HP and SH-AWD!
There you go! Except for the platform, NSX could have represented both, application of a mainstream engine and AWD system at their best.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If one of the primary goals is to minimize exclusivity to maximize parts sharing as well as be able to advertise those parts, be it the engine, the AWD system or both, a midsized V8 makes more sense than a small displacement V8.
An exclusive small displacement V8 will have an advantage but sharing with lesser models won’t be it. In RL and MDX, a 3.5-liter V8 would make no more sense than a 3.5-liter V6 does. The advantage will be in terms of packaging, being smaller and lighter than a shared “midsize” V8.
And if that small V8 were derived off the midsize V8, it won’t offer packaging and weight advantage so one might as well go with the larger displacement. So on the downside, the shared V8 will indeed add some size and weight but then it will be insignificant compared to the heft added by SH-AWD which seems to be a non-issue to Acura at this time.
For that reason, I would rather see an NSX revival with 4.5-liter V8 powering it, while a detuned version of the engine becomes optional in Acura RL and MDX. And if the flagship must showcase SH-AWD as well, that can be included as well (although I don’t like the idea for the fact that it will add about 225-250 lb to the curb weight).
I also like the idea of an NSX revival with V8 because it would not only represent mainstream Acura products but also bode well with Acura’s racing efforts (and Honda’s too, for those of us who don’t mind Acura to Honda and for very good reasons).
The original NSX represented Honda’s F1 efforts in spirit, this new one would do that plus have an engine that closely resembles F1, IRL and ALMS motors.
In the future, Acura could offer a lesser NSX with a different name, more affordable to the masses with V6 power (also shared with mainstream Acura vehicles). Given the potential Acura has, the duo could potentially send shivers down the spine of the brands that currently feel unthreatened owing to the prestige factor. And this would, undoubtedly, help Acura where it wants to be, as well as acquire that prestige.
Mainstream NSX could be mid-engine, RWD as it has been, with 450 HP V8. Acura could offer a top of the line NSX with SH-AWD but after addressing couple of issues.
SH-AWD will add weight. So, a good start will be to trim the standard NSX along the lines of Type-R, and looking at the last NSX-R effort, Honda had managed to chop about 300 lb off the curb weight. A similar effort could result in a new Type-R which also uses SH-AWD now and without weighing more than the standard version. To top things off, bumping the power from 450 HP to 500 HP should be possible as well.