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* The 2002 Pontiac Vibe Sports wagon
* The 2003 Opel Speedster (Set to replace the Firebird and TransAM F-body coupes).
See it here: www.opel.com
* The all new 2003 Pontiac Grand Prix that will be the first model to be built on GM's new global platform 'Mid-Lux'...expect DOHC and supercharged V6 engines, 6-speed manual transmissions and RWD.
Sorry Pontiac (and GM detractors) your dreams will not become reality. Keep on wishing!
Gm going out of business? That's yet to be seen folks. Reality check: The first ones I see going under the tube are Daimler-Chrysler with their failed 'marriage' take over attempt by the German corporation. Chrysler has a very stale product mix (Except the PT Cruiser that they can't seem to built enough of to keep up with demand), terrible quality and reliability (Well behind Ford and GM), poor resale value (Ask how many dealers would love to keep a stock of used LH sedans)and finances well into the red (This means much needed new product introduction delays and lower quality)and let's not even get into the financial woes of DCX as stated here on this fresh article:
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/dcxlate129.htm
Ford? If they don't get their act together they'll soon see themselves going the route of DCX. The Exploder/Firestone fiasco has been FAR REACH DAMAGING to the already bad reputation of Ford Motor Company. Quality job NUMERO UNO? What a joke! Recent Ford products (Focus/Escape/Tribute) have had a plethora of recalls and serious quality control problems more than any other 'domestic' product in the market. Hey Jcandor, did you know that your beloved Ford Focus has a recall of 300,000 units because the rear wheel assemblies can fall off while driving at highway speeds???? or have you read about one of the zillion Escape/Tribute recalls that state that the steering wheel can suddenly fall off in your hands? Great build quality at FORD? Common people, stop fouling yourselves!!!!
Read all about Ford woes at www.blueovalnews.com
Gm has also royally SCREWED UP with the Aztek, but given the current situation of DCX and FoMoCo, I think GM has much better odds of pulling ahead while DCX and Ford battle their own internal quality control problems, Financial scandals and tarnished reputations.
ENOUGH SAID!!!!
Let's try to just stick to the Aztek in this one.
Thanks.
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
Just saw that Rendezvous production will be doubled to offset poor Aztek sales. Probably a good move as Aztek (at least in current form), won't sell much more than 30K units in a year.
I will back up the consistancy of the 3800, the 5.0 and 5.7 Chevy motors and the 4.9 Ford and the Diesels from Ford and Dodge. They seem to be reliable, bulletproof (if somewhat archaic) and low upkeep powerplants.
I will also note the consistant junk coming in the form of the 3.8 Ford. Hey, they're pretty consistant!!!
This discussion is for people who want to talk about the Aztek.
Please get back on topic.
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
Face it, the Aztek is and will always be an emotionally charged and heated topic.
may be even better, freeze this topic and ban anyone from talking about the Aztek in Edmunds.
teo, do you have anything to contribute to a discussion on the Aztec? That would be the best way to get this conversation going in the right direction.
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
;-)
(Hey Pat just kidding, we need some Monday humor)
My Mom got one of those for her new Xterra. It plugs into the 12v outlet and can either "warm" or "cool" what's inside. Great for going to pot-luck dinners or long car trips.
The one thing that Aztek likers that I personally know seem to ALL think is the bee's knees is the camping package. Seriously, I've had people tell me they would buy the Aztek JUST for that. I usually point out that the aftermarket has been making SUV & pick-up "pop-up" tents for many years and for many models.
How's that for ON-TOPIC?
(Let see how much longer this topic will last without the intervention of the GM bashers)
In 1984, chrysler made the same tent package for the new Voyager/Caravan and discontinued it the following year. The feedback at the time suggested that when a family went camping, they also needed their vehicle available and having the tent attached to the car required disassembly each time they wanted to leave the campgrounds. The other big reason that was mentioned was security-related. People claimed that when they camped, their cars were used for "secure items" because they could be locked and with a "built-in" tent erected, anyone could unzip their way right into the car (perhaps, even stealing the car). It looks interesting on paper, but in actuality it doesn't work.
On the flip side, that Aztek vehicle sure moves fast for a bulbous mass of ugly plasticia... So, there you go, for all lovers of this vehicle, I finally found something good to say about the AZTEK !
I am still on topic right, Pat ?
"WAIT- Nice idea but... JUST LOOK AT THAT THING !"
If someone had the nerve to say that it would have saved GM much embarassment and millions of dollars.
I do like the tent idea but only if it was large enough to cover the whole Aztek and could be left in place when operating the vehicle.
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
1. TOTALLY SATISFIED WITH PRODUCT QUALITY. (NO RECALLS...COMPARE TO TRIBUTE/ESCAPE)
2. TOTALLY SATISFIED WITH FIT FINISH BOTH INTERIOR AND EXTERIOR.
3. TOTALLY SATISFIED WITH GAS MILEAGE. RIDE QUALITY AND ALL INTERIOR AMENITIES.
4. TOTALLY SATISFIED WITH MY DEALERS ATTENTION TO ALL DETAILS SURROUNDING THE PURCHASE OF THIS VEHICLE.
This Vehicle will remain in my ownership for 10-15 years. As my Toyota Corolla GTS and Chevy Astro. Each vehicle I have put 200,000 miles on. I searched long and hard and this vehicle has delivered value to date.
FOR THOSE PLANNING ON PURCHASING or INVESTIGATING AN AZTEK go ahead you WILL BE A SATISFIED CLIENT.
THOSE IN HERE "SLAGGING" THE PRODUCT LIKELY HAVE SOME .........VESTED INTEREST"...........TALK TO OWNERS.......
I HAVE TALKED TO HUNDREDS......ALL SATISFIED!!!
as for looks.......poppycock
This discussion is in place to converse about the Aztec. While I do not understand why you folks who are so opposed to GM and opposed to this vehicle want to hang out here, you are welcome to post your opinions and thoughts about the Pontiac Aztek as long as you remain within the bounds of the Terms of Use to which you agreed when you joined Town Hall. You may review those terms by clicking on the link on the left sidebar of this page.
PLEASE NOTE the part that requires you to "disagree in a civil manner should [you] take issue with the statements of another Town Hall participant".
If you want to discuss the relative merits of GM as a car manufacturer, please go to one of the New & Views discussions where these conversations are already occurring.
If we don't get some civil conversation going on here quickly about the Aztek, this discussion WILL be stopped.
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
Kissman: Congrats about the Aztek. It doesn't have the embarrasing recalls of the Escape/Tribute duo. The Ford success is clear evidence of how people are easily seduced by a pretty face even if the vehicle is a hunk of junk on the inside.
The Aztek, is quite the opposite. Great build quality....poorly styled. Shame!
big brother Pat... i do not envy your job of policing a public forum. discourse cannot solely be on the merit of something.... pls allow disenting voices to air their views also. that is democracy in action...
when people disagree rightly, as long as they are civil - off-subject or not - they should be allowed. i don't think that you should censor opinions, as that would contradict the dictum of free speech, which, when last i checked, is still free in this country...
now, go ahead and delete !!
If you look in the "Terms of Use" (which you agreed to when you registered as a Townhall participant) on the left hand column of the screen, you'll see that Edmunds.com has the right to exercise discretion. Opinions about the positives and negatives of the vehicle in question are always welcome, so long as they are clean, and they don't attack someone (or their choices) personally. When that happens, it becomes a flame fest and makes the topic completely useless.
Good luck!
Drew
Host
Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
This discussion had been overtaken by an argument about GM and other car manufacturers - that is the conversation that is out of place here. I have pointed out repeatedly that that conversation can take place in one of relevant discussions over in News & Views that is already underway.
Of course some off-topic things will be discussed in the course of a conversation, and there is no problem with that as long as the subject of the discussion remains clear. Someone dropping by here to look for (or share) Aztek info only to discover everybody going after each other about car manufacturers for pages and pages would not be well-served by Town Hall.
Positive and negative opinions about the Aztek are very appropriate here as long as they conform to the Terms of Use. Drew's explanation says it all.
Thanks for your understanding.
Pat
Host
SUV Message Board
The Toyota Echo is a current example. It's an ugly little car but it is possible to buy a cheap one (albeit quite stripped). Primarily for that reason, Echo sales seem to be doing okay.
Someone posted that a Pontiac manager said that the pricing of the Aztek is where Pontiac fouled up. Given how successful and popular a few other seemingly unattractive, low-priced vehicles have been in the past, that may be a valid point. If not for GM's greed, the Aztek might have had a shot at success. Now, I'm afraid it will go down in automotive history as a failure on par with that of the Edsel. It's been labeled a 'loser' and it's very hard to recover from that in the automotive world.
Aztek pricing: While I TOTALLY agree the Aztek is over priced for it's market, it is fairly priced for what you get. Unfortunately most competitors have 4 cyl engines and are smaller making them better buys. The price combined with it's looks are dragging sales. Perhaps stripping it down a bit could cut prices.
1. CRV: Utilitarian only. Underpowered. Uncomfortable and as plain as a Lada. Gauges poorly lit, lousy sound system, power-nothing. Overall not an enjoyable experience.
2. Toyota RAV: Small and cramped and significantly underpowered. No space.
3. Toyota Sienna: Nice vehicle but was no way near the responsiveness of the AZTEK. Solidly built and comfortable but out of my price range. Mediocre sound system.
4. Tribute: RECALL CITY......not interested.
5. JEEP: Was the closest but still small by comparision and no where near as versatile.
6. Looks.......I luv the Styling. It looks different and I like that. I luv a sound system that feels like my LIVING ROOM. I luv the features like HUD, SOUND ADJUSTING to ROAD NOISE, NEVER TURNING A HEADLIGHT ON OR OFF AGAIN, FLIP FOLD SEATING, CARGO TRAY, A FIT AND FINISH THAT WAS BETTER THEN ANYTHING I HAD SEEN in the PRICE CATEGORY.
As I said in my EARLIER post.....I find the AZTEK a fab vehicle of which I have not seen similar quality for price. Unfortunately the SANTA FE was not available......I would like to compare to that VEHICLE.
Until something happens to make me change my mind (RECALL, RUST, ENGINE PROBLEM, TRANNY).........I have not driven or seen a better vehicle.
By the way.........If SUCCESS is driven by the PT CRUISER. Keep success cause I've driven the PT CRUISER and it is tiny, underpowered and feels Like TIN.
See we live in a plastic LOOKS oriented world. If it isn't the LOOK is does not sell. Well guess what I put quality over LOOK. PT CRUISER can't hold AZTEK's jock on quality........But it LOOKS cool.
Test drove an Aztek this week. Nice. Not as much umph as my Buick, but plenty for my suburban family driving needs. Lots of cool, cool U.S. gadgets and features. However, for the money, I think I get more car/gadgets/power with a Buick Regal. Plus, Buick is a proven commodity. Also need to review Aztek crash test results when they are completed.
Does anybody have any data on actual purchase prices compared to MSRP? Have dealers been going into sub-invoice teritory? Does anybody remember significant rebates in the past this early into a first year of production? GM is offering a $1,000 now, but what will it be this summer? $2-3K?
Truly a cool car - just overpriced by about $4,000.
Also, Drzoom1 mentioned a $1000 rebate from GM. Is that a nationwide rebate and when does it expire. They are currently only offering a $500 Auto Show discount here in Michigan.
Thanks, and can't wait to get one!!
Greg
Now on to my Aztek story:
A year and half ago my wife and I had 2 kids, 2 dogs, 2 cats, 2 rats, a bird and a Subaru Forester. Life was good. Then we found out that we were expecting another baby and we needed a bigger car. We did the responsible thing and bought a Toyota Sienna mini-van. I began to regret my decision almost immediately. In fact, I was so distrought that I purchased a new BMW 328i to make me feel better (joke). We lived with the Toyota for about a year and a half before looking for a replacement. I test drove and researched just about every SUV and mini SUV made and here are my thoughts:
Acura MDX: Probably the only SUV truly worth the money. Everything you have read about this truck is true, I just can’t bring myself to pay full price for any car let alone the $2000 mark-up over MSRP that the dealerships are asking for.
Nissan Pathfinder: This is my favorite SUV and the truck I wanted my wife to buy. With it’s new 250 bhp engine it’s a poor man’s Acura MDX.
Nissan X-terra: Driving a 5 speed SE fully loaded it is no wonder this car is a huge seller. Very fun. However, 16 mpg no leather seats and no heated seats knocked this car out of the running as far as my wife was concerned.
Toyota 4-Runner: Totally overpriced.
Honda Rodeo, (Oops, I mean Isuzu Rodeo): I was contemplating whether to even include this joke on my list.
Mitsubishi Montero and Motero Sport: The Sport is very pretty to look at but doesn’t drive a ride very well. The Montero on the other hand rode and drove great. I thought it was too expensive for what you got, and the interior design left a lot to be desired. If Mitsubishi combined the Sport interior with the Montereo they would have a huge success.
Hiyunda Santa Fe: Well designed, good ride, good power. All in all not a bad product. Probably the only SUV out there that will have even a worse resale value than my Aztek.
Ford Escape: Exploding tires, engine fire hazards, steering wheel coming off in your hand. I’m not sure this is the kind of car I want my 3 kids riding in. However, once Ford gets all of the kinks worked out they will have an undeniable winner. Excellent room, power and looks for its class.
Honda CRV: I think the comment made about this car are very fitting. Besides I am on a mission to dispell American’s perception that Honda can do no wrong. I owned a Honda, needed a new transmission at 70 k mile, not impressed!
Toyota RAV 4: I used to like Toyota, know I have com to my senses and decided to buy German made from here on out.
BMW X-5: Finally we get to a real truck. If I had an 4.4 X-5 I race any of you Acura Integra driving punks out there. I would give you a run for your money if not beat you. I actually ordered a 3.0 X-5 for my wife, but in the end decided I really could not afford the $43,000 price tag. Ouch!
Subaru Forester: Best value and resale value bar none. We wanted to buy another one but it was too small.
I test drove a lot more but I will not bother you with the details. Then one day to my horror my wife calls me up all excited about a car she had test drove. I told her please what ever you say do not tell me it is an Aztek. It was. I went down to the dealership a couple of hours later and test drove the car for myself. I was shocked. It had plenty of room for our family of five. Cargo space was ample. It has a very comfortable ride and the steering was surprisingly tight. The turning radius is superb and the ancient 3.3 liter V-6 had plenty of power. Add to this, all the neat gadgets and AWD and you have a real fun car to drive. The clincher for us however, was the camping package. We had to sell our 72 VW Bus a while back, (another decision I will always regret) and the Aztek was the only truck half as versatile or fun to drive as that old VW bus.
There you have it, my story in a nut shell, albeit a rather large nut shell. For those of you out there who have never seen an Aztek in person let alone driven one, but insist on baging on this car, I pity you’re your close mindedness. For the rest of you Aztek owners out there I understand your decision. In the end, I’m sure a few years from now I probably won’t even be able to resale this car, but that’s why I bought a Bimmer.
GREAT PRODUCT!........until proven otherwise.
Millerg, are you an engineer? I also live in Michigan and seem to recall a Miller.
IMHO, Pontiac will increase the incentives once the current $1,000 rebate offer expires.
One question, though: If you're going to delete posts that do not conform precisely to the topic, why would you then threaten to shut the entire board down? I mean, once you delete the offending posts, you'd be left only with benign, friendly (if nearly identical) posts. Why shut the board even to those who follow your strict, schoolmarmish dictates?
Seems to me that, in doing this, you give all the advantage, power, and (dare I say) sport to those whose opinions veer slightly off the well-trod path set down by those who either like the Aztek, or find slight fault with it but stick zealously religiously to the topic. For example, I find it instructive to place the Aztek's troubles in the larger context of GM's mismanagement (am I allowed to say that word here?). Clearly, I'm way out of line here. GM has NOTHING to do with the Aztek, as you rightly (and frequently) point out. But instead of simply deleting my blighted, hatemongering posts, you threaten the ability of those who choose to agree happily with each other on the great merits (or minor demerits -- can I say that word?) of the Aztek.
I know there's merit in the saying that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", but I thought I'd share my thoughts on this important, but totally irrelavent, unrelated, mean-spirited, GM-bashing, anti-Aztek topic.
I'll go beat myself with a large stick now. Please, I beg your forgiveness.
Thanks,
Stephen
I have been waiting for the prices to come down. In Atlanta I was qouted 3000 off MSRP for a GT listing at 28210. This seems reasonable but from reading perhaps I can do better by at least another 500 dollars. The only thing is I'm starting to see alot of AWD models which is too far up stream (30+) for me and I'm afraid we will have a tough time finding the model she wants (Black GT, 1SC, Towing, Sunroof, Leather).
Does anyone know if you can combine the rebate with the Smart Buy program ? I was also contemplating leasing with the hopes that GM will offer a wholesale buyout at the end incase resale is really sad (which I suspect since 2002 will be a restyle)
Thks
Speaking for myself, if I were to, say, hate the Aztek for its ugliness, does that construe that I also hate GM ? This, for me is simply not the case. I have nothing against GM, and like I wrote in an earlier post, GM makes its (large) share of bad cars, but it also has many excellent cars/SUV's/trucks on the road. The Aztek, imo, simply is not one of the latter. Owners will disagree with this assertion, but I can still express my free will on this topic, can't I ?
BTW, I did read one of PAT_SUV_Host's mail which states something like (paraphrase here) "what are Aztek haters doing on this forum ?"
We have read of one or more shopper's write-up on comparisons of several cars/SUV's/trucks/minivans before settling on the Aztek. Of course, such "comparisons" are allowed under the Aztek topic, but NOT any dislike of the Aztek itself nor of its manufacturer....Which is quite interesting !
Uhm.... Let's see, if all the fora in edmunds.com were to be populated by those in support of the topic, how can that thread last more than a day or two before dying out ? We should learn to respect and accept other differing opinions and any attempt to censor should be discouraged. Afterall, what must be "good for the goose, has to be equally good for the gander" ....
Let me close here by saying, I own a 2001 Toyota Sequoia and would 'rate' this vehicle 1 million-times better than an Aztek... Now, that is a comparison for you
I AM OUT OF HERE, FOR GOOD. SO MUCH FOR HAVING A GOOD TIME WHILE IT LASTS !!!