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Are Toyota's recent quality problems just a glitch?

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Comments

  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    rockylee wrote: "If you actually pay attention and follow the posts you would notice I wasn't the one who brought up the UAW."

    I do follow the posts, at least given the small amount of time I have to peruse Edmunds.com. No disrespect intended, it just seems like in all the myriad of threads you are involved here, the discussion always seems to evolve to the UAW. Is it possible to discuss the pros and cons of the thread's title without a union vs. non-union debate?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    kd,

    I'm not calling you a liar. I'm just saying I saw different back a few years ago is all. Perhaps things have changed ?

    I honestly don't care....you can win this arguement ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Is it possible to discuss the pros and cons of the thread's title without a union vs. non-union debate?

    Would love to do that w9cw. It seems that the majority of people know where I stand on the union issue and to get my goat they bring it up. I guess I should be more mature and ignore it. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    gmfan1,

    Fintails, Mercedes Benz's aren't winter beaters.... ;)

    Rocky
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/08/2007-toyota-tundra-crewmax-announced/

    Domestic truck fans have nothing to diss about this new rig. It's handsome, well equipped, powerful and certainly as capable as the big three. Best of all, it is built in the good ol US of A which should change the minds of the anti-import crowd as they have absolutely nothing to knock this new rig for anymore. They'll sell every single one.

    I predict many conquest sales from this. Good job Toyota on building a real competitor. :shades:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    It's a very nice truck "anything" but I don't see where it's better than GM's new ones which won't matter because like you said everyone will sell as they should because it's a nice piece. ;)

    Rocky
  • drjamesdrjames Member Posts: 274
    anythingbutgm, though I whole heartedly agree that this truck is american as one gets, and that it probably is a rock solid truck, I've learned that it doesn't matter what you post, or what you say. Unfortunately many who may claim to be "open mined", have a pervasive and ingrained mind-set that simply will never be changed. Laughable is the notion that a Dogde truck or anything built by Chysler is still built by an "American company."
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    For a hint about the subject of conversation. Off-topic posts have been removed, and will continue to be removed without notice.

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  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Yeah, I'll drink to that. So true.

    But even with the "coordinated forum blitz" of pro-GM posts that we have been seeing over the past month or so, I believe the Real Market will fully accept the new Tundra as a strong offering and worthy of a look.

    Pro-domestic fans are going to be grasping for straws to come up with negative things to say about this new rig. :blush:
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Toyota is getting serious with their new supercar. The Corvette could be in for some serious competition.

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/08/2009-lexus-lf-a-concept/

    Stylistic knockout IMO. :shades:
  • drjamesdrjames Member Posts: 274
    anythingbut, agreed with the styling. Thing this thing is just gorgeous, but doubt Lexus is aiming at the Vette as its primary competition. It's a "Lexus", and has been caught being tested in Germany along with a 911 Turbo.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Freaky, especially the weird lump on the A-pillar and the ridiculous scoop beside the B-pillar. Toyota and styling...they still haven't got it down, but at least they are trying.
  • maple2maple2 Member Posts: 177
    Unfortunately many who may claim to be "open mined", have a pervasive and ingrained mind-set that simply will never be changed. Laughable is the notion that a Dogde truck or anything built by Chysler is still built by an "American company."

    whats even more laughable is your having this converstion with a guy who goes by anythngbutgm :) :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Sounds like Toyota did the right thing to increase the engine warranty but neglected to tell customers OR dealers about the extended warranty.

    What is the oil change schedule on a Toyota? 7500 miles? Do they have an oil life monitor like GM vehicles?

    LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. has quietly settled a class-action lawsuit that covers about 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have been damaged by engine oil sludge.

    Details of the settlement, which allows for third-party mediation of sludge claims rejected by Toyota, have been mailed to 7.5 million current and previous owners.

    Critics contend Toyota has told customers and dealers too little about sludge issues. They say some customers took vehicles with dead engines to dealers who had little or no knowledge of the problem and often assumed it was the owners' fault.

    Unhappy customers had no remedy other than hiring a lawyer to go after Toyota.

    Under the agreement, owners whose claims have been denied by Toyota may submit them to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.

    "This settlement breathes life into claims that have been dead for years," said Gary Gambel, a lawyer for plaintiffs who sued Toyota. "This is not a settlement that gives a few dollars to everyone. The relief is exactly tied to the problems and damages that someone might have."

    Toyotas at risk
    About 3.3 million Toyota vehicles are susceptible to oil sludge, which can cause thousands of dollars in damage and require replacement of the engine. Here are the vehicles included in the settlement.
    VEHICLE MODEL YEARS
    Camry 4 cyl. 1997-2001
    Camry 6 cyl. 1997-2002
    Camry Solara 4 cyl. 1999-2001
    Camry Solara 6 cyl. 1999-2002
    Sienna 6 cyl. 1998-2002
    Avalon 6 cyl. 1997-2002
    Celica 4 cyl. 1997-1999
    Highlander 6 cyl. 2001-2002
    Lexus ES 300 1997-2002
    Lexus RX 300 1999-2002

    The issue highlights a possible chink in the company's armor. Executives fear Toyota is growing too fast for its engineering resources. That could lead to quality snags and a tarnished reputation.

    When a customer takes a sludge-caked engine to a dealership, there is usually a "clean-out" procedure. The head is pulled and a service technician tries try to steam out the sludge. If that doesn't work, the engine must be replaced.

    Sludge can result from poor engine design; overly tight tolerances between moving parts; improper cooling; and poor maintenance by consumers.

    Toyota insists the problem arises mainly when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.

    The agreement does not find Toyota at fault.

    "The settlement doesn't mean that Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel," according to the notice.
    After Toyota had received 3,400 sludge complaints by 2002 it extended its vehicle warranty to eight years and unlimited miles. The program was offered to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines. The company declined to give an updated number of complaints.

    The terms

    Under terms of the settlement:

    Owners of damaged vehicles have eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint.

    If Toyota denies the claim, owners can appeal to a judge-appointed third-party administrator: J. Robert Ates, a New Orleans lawyer.

    Customers who have already made repairs may be able to recover the costs.

    Only those who elect not to participate in the settlement can sue Toyota individually. The deadline for that choice was Dec. 31, 2006.

    The settlement is transferable to future vehicle owners.

    The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge. It is not necessary for the owner to have made repairs during the claim period.

    Damages that can be recovered include loss in value of the vehicle and incidental costs, such as rental cars. Past lawyers' fees, mental anguish and bodily injuries are not covered.

    "The terms of the program remain unchanged. There always was a way for customers to appeal our decision."

    Plaintiff lawyers disagree. They say Toyota failed to communicate the extent of the problem to its dealers and customers. Toyota's appeal process also meant hiring a lawyer, which many consumers could not afford. It costs nothing to file an appeal with Ates.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    This part of the story isn't quite accurate: Critics contend Toyota has told customers and dealers too little about sludge issues. They say some customers took vehicles with dead engines to dealers who had little or no knowledge of the problem and often assumed it was the owners' fault.

    I had one of the affected cars -- a '97 Camry 4-cylinder. In 2002, after Toyota had received numerous complaints, including a spirited debate here on Edmunds in which a Toyota rep participated, Toyota agreed to an 8-year, unlimited mileage warranty on all vehicles potentially affected by the problem. The article you quote says as much: After Toyota had received 3,400 sludge complaints by 2002 it extended its vehicle warranty to eight years and unlimited miles. The program was offered to owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0-liter V-6 or 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines.

    I received a letter explaining this warranty extension. The letter was similar to a recall letter, so it was obvious that it wasn't junk mail. If there was a problem, the owner had to show evidence of reasonable maintenance, meaning at least one oil change per year.

    My car did NOT have sludge. I changed the oil myself at 5000K mile intervals or less (3+ times a year) using conventional oil. I had the car for 7 years and 111K miles and sold it only to upgrade to a side-airbag equipped 2004 Camry. It is still not clear to this day if the sludging issue was due to faulty engineering or inadequate maintenance.

    I have seen some articles that discussed changes that were subsequently made to the V6 engine, but I have yet to read about ANY changes that were made to the 4-cylinder.

    At the time (1997), Toyota had 6-month/7500 mile intervals for normal service oil changes and 4-month/5000 mile intervals for severe service.

    In 2004, Toyota shortened the service interval to 6 months/5000 miles for all users AND began installing a dashboard amber warning light "maintenance required" that would start flashing at 4500 miles since the last reset and would stay on steadily at 5000 miles.

    To my knowledge, no Toyota product uses engine oil life monitors, but as you know, these are indirect indicators of oil quality and are not infallible. And as I recall from reading GM owner's manuals, you still must change the oil once a year even if the monitor indicates the oil is still "good."

    And just in case I get called on for making things up ;), here is the link to the relevant Edmunds thread from five years ago. Yep, five years ago -- this really is old news.
  • chevy598chevy598 Member Posts: 162
    I've got 2 GM cars with the oil life monitors, and I wouldn't trust them for a minute. I use conventional oil, and change it every 5000 miles regardless of what the monitor says. I didn't reset the oil life monitor after an oil change (5000 miles), and it didn't go off for another 4000 miles. That's 9000 miles on one oil change. I don't think that is very healthy on a motor.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    2 different people with affected 4-cylinder Camrys, one a '97, and the other a '99. I know they were both notified by mail when that warranty got extended, because they both asked me what the letter meant.

    The '97 got sold to be replaced by an '04 Accord, with 120K miles when sold and never a single repair. The '99 is still in my other friend's possession, getting to about 120K itself now, and no problems with the engine. An aftermarket alarm and an attempted theft have caused no end of problems, but that's another story...

    GM made a smart move going to the 100K warranty. Regardless of how "meaningful" it is (currently being debated in a different thread, because it is 100K miles but only 5 years), it is a great demonstration by the manufacturer of faith in the long-term durability of its product. And if Toyota had such a standard warranty, they probably wouldn't have taken so much flak over the sludge thing.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Oil life monitor works well. Nothing wrong with 9000 miles with the right customer usage. Just not what you are used to. In my old vette the service schedule is unbelievable. If any manufacturer put it out they would have no customers. Vehicles have improved immensely
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My Seville STS has the oil life monitor. I change it around 21% oil life which corresponds to 3K miles. I make sure I reset. Heck, I'm used to checking the odometer anyway to determine when to change my oil.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Why don't they just bring back the Supra and be done with it? That car looks pretty weird - front end kind of reminds me of a Mazda. The Acura NSX still looks good nearly 20 years later.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    There we go again, the "biased media" conspiracy theory...

    Yes yes, you are right, apparently Toyota managed to buy off every single media in the states.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Looks like the moles are starting make their presence known... I don't know who is more arrogant, GM or the people that defend them.

    If you have a problem with me or my opinions, take it up with the moderators. Don't be a prick about it.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Looks like a post got zapped. There was plenty of media coverage about the sludge issue back when Toyota extended the engine warranty (early 2002). It was on the front page, for example, of Automotive News.

    Even that so-called "import-loving, communist" Consumer Reports had an article in the front part of the magazine about it.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Good point about having a longer powertrain warranty.

    The sludge problem, however, according to affected owners, often manifested itself very early in the car's lifetime, many times well within even the bumper-to-bumper 3/36 warranty period.

    Toyota initially refused to accept any responsibility for the problem, claiming owners were not changing their oil soon enough (or at all).

    This sludge issue was especially perplexing to owners such as me that had already accumulated well over 50-60K miles with no problems (but of course, I was changing the oil well within the recommended intervals). We were arguing back and forth on Edmunds whether the problem was real or exaggerated (or caused by owner negligence or repair shop incompetence).
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion on toyota sludge but I was running a small shop during the time that this came out and it was real. Cars that I had been serviced for their entire life using 3,000-5,000 miles oil change intervals were having those sludge problems.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    Yeash that thing is ugly. Side profile reminds me of a 350Z that has been "pimped out". Ugly in my book.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I only brought it up because the courts just ruled and the opinion by many here is that one reason Toyota buyers keep going back is due to no problems. Perhaps this will turn some away. I know some think differently but the outcome makes it look like Toyota kept is as a hidden warranty. I have not idea.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Yeah, Toyota needs to look at the Vortec Piston Slap issues as a reminder of how not to handle warranty claims, especially if they want to capture those defectors with the new full size Tundra.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    don't they have to know what went wrong in order to issue a recall?

    Everyone got a letter in the mail extending the warranty, how is that "hidden" or "secret"?
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    how is that "hidden" or "secret"?

    This was the winning lawyers' view on the issue, according to the news article. I'll refrain from the lawyer jokes. There's no word on what the judge said.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I got a chance to sit in a 2007 Tundra this past weekend. The only negative which did surprise me is the dash didn't seem as nicely done as I have seen other Toyota vehicles. Edmunds used the term "cheap" in their First Drive. I wouldn't go that far. It looks like they made a very conscious effort to make sure the buttons were large enough so that people could use the dash if they had work gloves on. Otherwise, Toyota will sell all they make. It still won't hurt Ford or Chevy sales. Dodge has been trying for over decade to make a dent in their sales and haven't succeeded.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    >

    It was Motor Trend not Edmunds.
  • maple2maple2 Member Posts: 177
    Looks like the moles are starting make their presence known... I don't know who is more arrogant, GM or the people that defend them.If you have a problem with me or my opinions, take it up with the moderators. Don't be a prick about it.

    What the hell are you talking about? First of all i wasnt talking to you and second i was merely stating that i found it ironic that someone else was replying to your post and was talking about some peoples mindset"Unfortunately many who may claim to be "open mined", have a pervasive and ingrained mind-set that simply will never be changed"
    meanwhile they are talking to a guy whos name is anythingbutgm. Am i the only one here who finds that slightly amusing? It would be kinda like Bush talking to saddam about the human rights problem in china
    If you consider that being a prick or arrogance than I am truly sorry that you lead such a miserable existance that you have to fly off the handle at a little joke.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    It'd be way cool if we could return to talking about Toyota quality and not the quality of other members' posts.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • soopereddsooperedd Member Posts: 32
    Amen.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well they must of had enough money to keep the 8 years of hidden recalls issue from being front and center news on the alpha soup channels. If GM or Ford, were to do something like Toyota, their would of been a rope next to Saddam for Bill Ford and Rick Wagoner. ;)

    Rocky
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    I wonder why it didn't effect all of the cars produced in the period. Did it have something to do with a brand of oil? I wonder is Toyota able to better contian it's problems? Cause the issuses that affected the domestics tended on be on every car just about.
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    Also I would take a hidden recal provided it fixes the problem. I think that also might be an issuse for the domestics. I can still remember my mom's temp with the a/c coolent leak that was never fixed at all despite many atempts.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    There weren't 8 years of hidden recalls. We all got a letter in early 2002 defining the terms of the 8-year, unlimited mileage warranty extension.

    The questions you guys are raising about oil type, etc. were all hashed out in the now-archived forums in Edmunds. Search for "Toyota sludge."

    There didn't seem to be any particular pattern to who was affected by sludge, but it seemed to be mostly limited to people who drove only short distances but didn't necessarily change their oil in time (every 6 months). In some cases, the mileage limit on oil changes was also stretched. There were also accusations (not proven) that Pennzoil and Quaker State conventional oils are "bad."

    My '97 Camry was fine for the 7 years and 111K miles that I had it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    210,

    The hidden recall has nothing to do with the oil sludge problem typical of earlier toyota's. I've posted several links to related story's about toyot's hidden recall campaign also known as service campaigns. Toyota, esentially instead of doing a national recall had owners come in for service and they would fix the problems during the routine service to avoid national exposure that would tarnish their flawless image. This went on for over 8 years until a investigation happened which sent 3 top toyota officals to jail for the scam prosecuted by the japanese government. ;)

    Rocky
  • drjamesdrjames Member Posts: 274
    "This went on for over 8 years until a investigation happened which sent 3 top toyota officals to jail for the scam prosecuted by the japanese government."

    rocky, care to show us the articles stating that the "investigation" has been completed, and the three quality-control managers had been found guilty and imprisoned? ;)

    btw, if these so called "hidden recalls" existed, and are not used across the industry by some of your favorites such as GM or Ford, why haven't they called Toyota on it? hmmmm... interesting, no rocky? ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/378492

    http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2006/07/12/70288.htm

    I have other more recent articles posted on different forums dated during this past summer when the investigation was going on. Last I knew three top officails were jailed. What has happened since then I haven't kept up with the story since I'm not a Toyota loyalist and it doesn't concern me or my money. :)

    Google "Toyota recall scandal" and like words and numerous forums, articles, blogs, will appear or dig into the july postings of the Big 3/GM forums? postings is where
    "I think" you might find some of my previous links. ;)

    Rocky
  • drjamesdrjames Member Posts: 274
    rocky, both articles (one no longer valid) and your helpful google search of "toyota recall scandal" all said the same thing, unless I missed something. Three toyota quality-control managers are accused and are being investigated. No one's been found guilty, and no one's been jailed. If you have other articles that state otherwise, I'd love to see them.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I'll look for them sometime tommorow when I get a chance. I'm getting close to hitting the hay and have some errands to take care of but I will try to dig through the old posts to see where I posted the links. They are somewhere on Automotive news and views because I believe one of the big articles was from Detnews.com from July/August time frame. I also recall edmunds having a post of their own on insideline about this scandal but it being about 6 months old I'm not sure if it's still on the site or in the edmunds archive ???? :confuse: I will look though. :)

    Rocky
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Make uses service campaigns or TSBs to take care of problems. After the whole Firestone tire and Exploder fiasco a lot of things that would just be TSBs are being moved up to recall status just to reduce the chance of accidents.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    And there is a difference between a service campaign and a TSB.

    For the former, all owners are notified, as would be the case in a safety- or emissions-related recall.

    For the latter, only when customers bring in their vehicles with specific complaints to dealerships are the problems considered. A lot of TSBs simply deal with improved service procedures rather than defects per se. And many also deal with initial delivery concerns, such as how to remove rail dust corrosion spots from the paint.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Exactly I have a whole stack of TSBs for all of the Land Rovers but not all of them apply to all vehicles. Most of them just say if you see this problem then do this and that should fix it.

    If you actually sent all of the TSBs to the public they would freak out at the sheer volume of them.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    I agree. I have the TSBs for my '04 Camry (most of which also apply to the '05). Some apply only to specific optional equipment that I don't have.

    Others are simply revisions of past TSBs, in which maybe one or two paragraphs are modified somewhat. For example, the whole topic of window glass deals basically with the proper procedure for "initializing" the sunroof.

    And a great many deal with initial delivery issues, like the aforementioned rail dust, plus predelivery inspection.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    My '97 Camry went 7 yrs and 185,000 mi and nothing but nothing went wrong with it - ever. The tranny began to act up at 185K and I sold it.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I really liked that generation of Camry, especially the 2000 with the redesigned tail lights. It's too bad a statistical sampling of 2007 Camry's are having transmission problems much, much earlier than your 1997.
This discussion has been closed.